12-D A Certain Magical Index

[Acertainbcplayer]

What about my logic then?

 

[Piamma]

First, this thread is a mess, y'all have already pretty much dropped the original proposal related to 12D that's in the OP to discuss completely unrelated topics.

Second, the only agreement I could see from y'all is that "11D bad, we want higher" but there barely seems to be an agreement on how all these different things (Phases, Sephiroth, Dimensions, etc) work and how they're meant to scale in relation to each other and in relation to specific characters.

Third, the 12D argument is bad because espers use the "11th dimension" not the "eleventh spatial dimension", you'd need a statement saying exactly what the 2nd says to use the logic you're proposing for 12D (someone else had given a similar explanation in the first page, but whatever).

Fourth, the arguments for Curtana are also really bad (and someone legitimately used ChatGPT to create an argument? That's kinda sad, ngl) because, as others explained, "dimensions that can be expressed" doesn't mean "all numbers correspond to a dimension". I like this as much as y'all, I don't want 11D either, but if the statements are flawed they're flawed and that's it.


Give me a quote with that exact wording.


Give me a similar statement in Toaru.

Like, not just you, Piamma, but everyone here seems to miss the simple fact that the actual relationship between dimensions, phases and the Sephiroth has not been properly explained (I didn't read GT11 yet, NO spoilers).

しかし、その平穏もつかの間、「隠世」――世界に存在するすべての「位相」の、さらに薄紙一枚を隔てた場所から真の「グレムリン」たる完全な「魔神」たちが現れる.

"However, that peaceful time was short-lived. From the Hidden World—beyond all the phases existing in the world, separated by nothing more than a thin sheet of paper—the true Gremlins, the fully realized Magic Gods, appeared."

The 'all phases existing in the world' mentioned here corresponds with what is described in volume NT10.
It refers to the pure world based on physical laws, as well as all the religious and mythological phases.

Do you need an image of the text?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

First, this thread is a mess, y'all have already pretty much dropped the original proposal related to 12D that's in the OP to discuss completely unrelated topics.

Second, the only agreement I could see from y'all is that "11D bad, we want higher" but there barely seems to be an agreement on how all these different things (Phases, Sephiroth, Dimensions, etc) work and how they're meant to scale in relation to each other and in relation to specific characters.

Third, the 12D argument is bad because espers use the "11th dimension" not the "eleventh spatial dimension", you'd need a statement saying exactly what the 2nd says to use the logic you're proposing for 12D (someone else had given a similar explanation in the first page, but whatever).

Fourth, the arguments for Curtana are also really bad (and someone legitimately used ChatGPT to create an argument? That's kinda sad, ngl) because, as others explained, "dimensions that can be expressed" doesn't mean "all numbers correspond to a dimension". I like this as much as y'all, I don't want 11D either, but if the statements are flawed they're flawed and that's it.


Give me a quote with that exact wording.


Give me a similar statement in Toaru.

Like, not just you, Piamma, but everyone here seems to miss the simple fact that the actual relationship between dimensions, phases and the Sephiroth has not been properly explained (I didn't read GT11 yet, NO spoilers).

What about this logic then?

The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either: Teleporters seems to move in the 11th dimension with their power, since they do need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, no reason to do that unless their ability indeed allow them to travel in the 11th dimension, Accelerator reflecting them also produces a weird effect too. If teleporters can do that in the physical universe (they clearly have to be contained in the Physical universe, they are still humans after all) -> The Physical universe is 11D, then the fact that Magic Gods, or hell, even Angels existing in the physical universe is gonna blow it up or at least blows things up because hear this: The Physical Universe is stated to not have enough material to support their existence, stated in WW3 when Gabriel is about to blow stuff up iirc), so this could be prove that Phases can contain worlds that's more complex than 11D, clearly since Magic Gods did created a Phase like that to support their existence, as well as every other mythology beings with their true form comfortably existing in their own Phase. I don't know if there is any flaws in this logic or not, feel free to point them out. Oh, there's also the black world, don't know if the black world counts as another higher dimension or it's just a dimension without any Phases (except one).

Or a better bet would be Ein Sof (dimensions beyond the Sephirot), but we have near to no information about that stuff yet, so I won't be assuming stuff here.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

しかし、その平穏もつかの間、「隠世」――世界に存在するすべての「位相」の、さらに薄紙一枚を隔てた場所から真の「グレムリン」たる完全な「魔神」たちが現れる.

"However, that peaceful time was short-lived. From the Hidden World—beyond all the phases existing in the world, separated by nothing more than a thin sheet of paper—the true Gremlins, the fully realized Magic Gods, appeared."

The 'all phases existing in the world' mentioned here corresponds with what is described in volume NT10.
It refers to the pure world based on physical laws, as well as all the religious and mythological phases.

Do you need an image of the text?

It would be 12D if this is approved right?
And about the Curtana argument, because there was no dimension higher than 11D (or whatever D it is) proven yet, so is the infinite dimensions that Curtana "potentially could reach"

 

[Piamma]

First, this thread is a mess, y'all have already pretty much dropped the original proposal related to 12D that's in the OP to discuss completely unrelated topics.

Second, the only agreement I could see from y'all is that "11D bad, we want higher" but there barely seems to be an agreement on how all these different things (Phases, Sephiroth, Dimensions, etc) work and how they're meant to scale in relation to each other and in relation to specific characters.

Third, the 12D argument is bad because espers use the "11th dimension" not the "eleventh spatial dimension", you'd need a statement saying exactly what the 2nd says to use the logic you're proposing for 12D (someone else had given a similar explanation in the first page, but whatever).

Fourth, the arguments for Curtana are also really bad (and someone legitimately used ChatGPT to create an argument? That's kinda sad, ngl) because, as others explained, "dimensions that can be expressed" doesn't mean "all numbers correspond to a dimension". I like this as much as y'all, I don't want 11D either, but if the statements are flawed they're flawed and that's it.


Give me a quote with that exact wording.


Give me a similar statement in Toaru.

Like, not just you, Piamma, but everyone here seems to miss the simple fact that the actual relationship between dimensions, phases and the Sephiroth has not been properly explained (I didn't read GT11 yet, NO spoilers).

"This place is the Dianoid, a skyscraper built entirely out of carbon-based construction materials, right? In other words, there's no need to manipulate all phases, all dimensions, or all elements to distort the landscape. A magician who can manipulate carbon could do it effortlessly."

But from 'Outside,' I saw and understood something new. The Earth, the universe, the world—none of them are anything more than giant balloons. And the Magic Gods are like cactus plants in flowerpots, being shaken back and forth on top of that balloon. Anyone would fall into confusion. Once you become aware of their existence even once... you can never let your guard down for a moment, always tense, wondering when those freely roaming flowerpots will roll in.

This passage mentions that the Magic Gods can manipulate all elements, dimensions, and phases.

and This is also one of Kamachi's frequently used writing techniques.
He often constructs sentences that expand in scope, moving from the Earth to the universe, and then to the world.
The first passage follows the same pattern, with the scope gradually extending from elements to dimensions and then to phases.

その「真の魔神」は、次元すら超越するほどの圧倒的な破壊力で上条を追う。
The true Magic Gods pursue Kamijou with overwhelming destructive power that transcends even dimensions.

Although it's a summary, it clearly describes that the Magic Gods possess overwhelming destructive power that even transcends dimensions."

 

[XDragnoir]

Bad logic right here, like "11th dimension" is already enough, they even talk about quantum theory and stuff when mentioning this (there is a post in this thread about the scans for this), you don't just go and say "oh the Teleporters are using some random 11 dimension from somewhere instead of the 11th dimension that we knows in M-theory" like bro, this is just, bad, idk what to say.

It's clearly the 11th spatial dimension and we're using that same thing for H1C Toaru, what's your point on this?

What?

I am pretty sure M-Theory has 10 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension (spacetime as a whole thus being 11D), but you seem to simply not have understood what I said.

Repeating, espers use the eleventh dimension, the argument of the OP interprets this as the eleventh spatial dimension and adds time as the 12th dimension, when in reality time is already included as the 4th one (which doesn't imply espers can travel in time, although we know they can change the future to some extent).

So yeah, Toaru is pretty similar to M Theory and the one going against it is the OP, what you said is just strange.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

その「真の魔神」は、次元すら超越するほどの圧倒的な破壊力で上条を追う。
The true Magic Gods pursue Kamijou with overwhelming destructive power that transcends even dimensions.

Although it's a summary, it clearly describes that the Magic Gods possess overwhelming destructive power that even transcends dimensions."

Does summary counts? But "transcends even dimensions" doesn't mean they transcends "dimensionality", unless it means so in Japanese. Well of course this could easily prove 12D if approved. (was having a stroke again, yeah, it could also means transcends dimensionality, man I need lunch)

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

What?

I am pretty sure M-Theory has 10 spatial dimensions + 1 temporal dimension (spacetime as a whole thus being 11D), but you seem to simply not have understood what I said.

Repeating, espers use the eleventh dimension, the argument of the OP interprets this as the eleventh spatial dimension and adds time as the 12th dimension, when in reality time is already included as the 4th one (which doesn't imply espers can travel in time, although we know they can change the future to some extent).

So yeah, Toaru is pretty similar to M Theory and the one going against it is the OP, what you said is just strange.

I was having a stroke reading your previous comment, nah, I agree with you, I noticed the "11th spatial dimension"

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

anyways, do you agree with my logic instead?

 

[Piamma]

Does summary counts? But "transcends even dimensions" doesn't mean they transcends "dimensionality", unless it means so in Japanese. Well of course this could easily prove 12D if approved.

新約 とある魔術の禁書目録(13)

地球滅亡をかけた、上条当麻と御坂美琴のチェイスバトルが幕を開ける――！ 上条当麻は、疾走していた。　ハイテク自転車『アクロバイク』で、学園都市を逃げ回る。背中には、彼の腰にしっかりと手を回し、振り落とされないようにしがみつく御坂美琴の姿があった。…

bookwalker.jp

This is part of an officially written summary.

 

[XDragnoir]

しかし、その平穏もつかの間、「隠世」――世界に存在するすべての「位相」の、さらに薄紙一枚を隔てた場所から真の「グレムリン」たる完全な「魔神」たちが現れる.

"However, that peaceful time was short-lived. From the Hidden World—beyond all the phases existing in the world, separated by nothing more than a thin sheet of paper—the true Gremlins, the fully realized Magic Gods, appeared."

The 'all phases existing in the world' mentioned here corresponds with what is described in volume NT10.
It refers to the pure world based on physical laws, as well as all the religious and mythological phases.

Do you need an image of the text?

It doesn't have the exact wording you gave earlier, see what's the problem? Where are dimensions even mentioned here? To say nothing that "beyond" isn't necessarily the same as "transcending" (can be, isn't always).

This passage mentions that the Magic Gods can manipulate all elements, dimensions, and phases.

and This is also one of Kamachi's frequently used writing techniques.
He often constructs sentences that expand in scope, moving from the Earth to the universe, and then to the world.
The first passage follows the same pattern, with the scope gradually extending from elements to dimensions and then to phases.

You know that that passage has it going from Phases, then to Dimensions then to Elements, right? That would mean dimensions are hierarchically above Phases going by what you're saying, which seems against what most people here actually think of the relationship between these two concepts.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

その「真の魔神」は、次元すら超越するほどの圧倒的な破壊力で上条を追う。
The true Magic Gods pursue Kamijou with overwhelming destructive power that transcends even dimensions.

Although it's a summary, it clearly describes that the Magic Gods possess overwhelming destructive power that even transcends dimensions."

I could provide some logic to argue that the Magic Gods indeed transcended dimensionality.
Firstly dimensions, or at least 11 of them, are the Physical universe, it's true and it's a fact, logically speaking of course.

so if Magic Gods "transcends even dimensions", grammatically and logically speaking, it would mean just like that, Magic Gods clearly transcends the Physical Universe making them 12D, but that's not enough, the sentence: "transcends even dimensions" clearly means they transcends dimensionality, unless it's "transcends dimensions" then I could agree it's just about the 11D thing, BUT NO, it's "EVEN DIMENSIONS"

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

You know that that passage has it going from Phases, then to Dimensions then to Elements, right? That would mean dimensions are hierarchically above Phases going by what you're saying, which seems against what most people here actually think of the relationship between these two concepts.

Which passage? I read it as "elements, dimensions, and phases.", not the opposite though? Elements meaning things in the universe, matters and energy, then dimensions, then Phases, like what? what am I missing?

 

[korea1234]

First, this thread is a mess, y'all have already pretty much dropped the original proposal related to 12D that's in the OP to discuss completely unrelated topics.

So I suggested we discuss it in another thread, but somehow this happened.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I could provide some logic to argue that the Magic Gods indeed transcended dimensionality.
Firstly dimensions, or at least 11 of them, are the Physical universe, it's true and it's a fact, logically speaking of course.

so if Magic Gods "transcends even dimensions", grammatically and logically speaking, it would mean just like that, Magic Gods clearly transcends the Physical Universe making them 12D, but that's not enough, the sentence: "transcends even dimensions" clearly means they transcends dimensionality, unless it's "transcends dimensions" then I could agree it's just about the 11D thing, BUT NO, it's "EVEN DIMENSIONS"

also this too

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

So I suggested we discuss it in another thread, but somehow this happened.

we've gone a long way, so let's just continue for a bit longer, until we finish with this at least

 

[XDragnoir]

I could provide some logic to argue that the Magic Gods indeed transcended dimensionality.
Firstly dimensions, or at least 11 of them, are the Physical universe, it's true and it's a fact, logically speaking of course.

so if Magic Gods "transcends even dimensions", grammatically and logically speaking, it would mean just like that, Magic Gods clearly transcends the Physical Universe making them 12D, but that's not enough, the sentence: "transcends even dimensions" clearly means they transcends dimensionality, unless it's "transcends dimensions" then I could agree it's just about the 11D thing, BUT NO, it's "EVEN DIMENSIONS"

You're biting more than you can eat, believe me

 

[Piamma]

It doesn't have the exact wording you gave earlier, see what's the problem? Where are dimensions even mentioned here? To say nothing that "beyond" isn't necessarily the same as "transcending" (can be, isn't always).



You know that that passage has it going from Phases, then to Dimensions then to Elements, right? That would mean dimensions are hierarchically above Phases going by what you're saying, which seems against what most people here actually think of the relationship between these two concepts.

"Climax and anticlimax essentially follow the same principle. Climax involves expressions that gradually increase in scale, while anticlimax involves expressions that gradually decrease.
Naturally, the latter increases in the order of element, dimension, and phase.
There's no way that element is the largest concept."

 

[XDragnoir]

Which passage? I read it as "elements, dimensions, and phases.", not the opposite though? Elements meaning things in the universe, matters and energy, then dimensions, then Phases, like what? what am I missing?

"This place is the Dianoid, a skyscraper built entirely out of carbon-based construction materials, right? In other words, there's no need to manipulate all phases, all dimensions, or all elements to distort the landscape. A magician who can manipulate carbon could do it effortlessly."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"This place is the Dianoid, a skyscraper built entirely out of carbon-based construction materials, right? In other words, there's no need to manipulate all phases, all dimensions, or all elements to distort the landscape. A magician who can manipulate carbon could do it effortlessly."

Ah this one? I remember, as Piamma said, it's an anti climax thing, a sound argument If I have to say

 

[XDragnoir]

"Climax and anticlimax essentially follow the same principle. Climax involves expressions that gradually increase in scale, while anticlimax involves expressions that gradually decrease.
Naturally, the latter increases in the order of element, dimension, and phase.
There's no way that element is the largest concept."

Given we know of the elements that keep some kind of balance over the world (the ones Fiamma corrected) as well the Pure Elements that were shown later in NT, Elements really can't be higher? For sure?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

You're biting more than you can eat, believe me

So your counterargument for my logic then? I mean you could say that "because it's just a summary", but is that the case in here or not?

 

[korea1234]

Another logic of the Toaru 12D that I came up with is this.

1. the physical universe has 11 dimensions.

2. the world containing the physical universe is infinite in size (mentioned in Toaru GT 10, Toaru NT 09), i.e. infinite 11 dimensions.

Spoiler: Toaru GT10

For example, his right hand hadn’t been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

3. magical gods are infinitely attenuated (mentioned in Toaru NT 12).

Spoiler: Toaru NT 12

“Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

4. the god of magic can destroy the infinite 11th dimension even while infinitely weakened.

Spoiler: Toaru NT 14

(Embed it.)

She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.

(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-...)

The voice of her heart was cut off.

5. this means that a magic god that is not infinitely weakened is 12D.

Where do you stand on this logic?

@XDragnoir

Where do you stand on this logic?

 

[XDragnoir]

So your counterargument for my logic then? I mean you could say that "because it's just a summary", but is that the case in here or not?

Not a counterargument, just a warning.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Given we know of the elements that keep some kind of balance over the world (the ones Fiamma corrected) as well the Pure Elements that were shown later in NT, Elements really can't be higher? For sure?

"Elements" here clearly means physical elements (Cu, Fe, stuffs like that). Or it could mean something else

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Not a counterargument, just a warning.

I see, so you say I could try biting huh? Also like Korea1234 said, my argument is kinda similar, where do you stand on my logic?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

@XDragnoir this one
The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either: Teleporters seems to move in the 11th dimension with their power, since they do need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, no reason to do that unless their ability indeed allow them to travel in the 11th dimension, Accelerator reflecting them also produces a weird effect too. If teleporters can do that in the physical universe (they clearly have to be contained in the Physical universe, they are still humans after all) -> The Physical universe is 11D, then the fact that Magic Gods, or hell, even Angels existing in the physical universe is gonna blow it up or at least blows things up because hear this: The Physical Universe is stated to not have enough material to support their existence, stated in WW3 when Gabriel is about to blow stuff up iirc), so this could be prove that Phases can contain worlds that's more complex than 11D, clearly since Magic Gods did created a Phase like that to support their existence, as well as every other mythology beings with their true form comfortably existing in their own Phase. I don't know if there is any flaws in this logic or not, feel free to point them out. Oh, there's also the black world, don't know if the black world counts as another higher dimension or it's just a dimension without any Phases (except one).

 

[Piamma]

It doesn't have the exact wording you gave earlier, see what's the problem? Where are dimensions even mentioned here? To say nothing that "beyond" isn't necessarily the same as "transcending" (can be, isn't always).

"I can't understand what you're saying.

In Japanese, the word '更に (sarani)' is translated as 'beyond,' which inherently carries the meaning of transcendence.

更に（さらに）とは？ 意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

更に（さらに）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。［副］１ 同じことが重なったり加わったりするさま。重ねて。加えて。その上に。「—一年の月日が過ぎた」「—こういう問題もある」２ 今までよりも程度が増すさま。前にも増して。いっそう。ますます。「—きれいになった」「事態は—悪くなった」３ （あとに打消しの語を伴って）いっこうに。まったく。少しも。「—覚えがない」「反省するようすは—なく」４ 事新しく。今さら。「—何事をかは疑ひ侍らむ」〈源・若菜上〉 - goo国語辞書は30万9千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

According to the dictionary:

1. The appearance of something being added or layered. On top of that. In addition.
2. The degree becoming more intense than before. More than before. Even more. Increasingly.
3. (When paired with a negating word) Gradually. Not at all. Not in the slightest. 'No memory whatsoever,' 'No sign of remorse whatsoever.'
4. Anew. At this point in time.
   

It's a term used to express a hierarchical, vertical structure, like layers in a stack.

I'm finding it a bit difficult to explain this in English, but compare this to the sentence from NT volume 10:

‘It was torn vertically by an external force… Othinus, and even Kamijou Touma, were mistaken about one thing. They thought that dark world was "the end of this world." They believed that the place where everything was destroyed, where nothing remained, was the abyss of despair. However, that wasn't the case. One more layer existed, like a thin membrane perfectly placed, uniform and flawless… a "phase" that no one could see or destroy. A black world. A place even the Magic God Othinus could not break.’

‘One more layer, perfectly placed like a thin membrane.

I don't understand why this wouldn't be considered transcendence."

 

[XDragnoir]

What about this logic then?

The best bet here to prove that Toaru is 12D is either: Teleporters seems to move in the 11th dimension with their power, since they do need to calculate their coordinates in the 11th dimension, no reason to do that unless their ability indeed allow them to travel in the 11th dimension, Accelerator reflecting them also produces a weird effect too. If teleporters can do that in the physical universe

This much is true.

(they clearly have to be contained in the Physical universe, they are still humans after all)

This is a assumption that not only the dimensions are inferior, but that they're even related directly to begin with, that needs to be proven in and of itself.

-> The Physical universe is 11D, then the fact that Magic Gods, or hell, even Angels existing in the physical universe is gonna blow it up or at least blows things up because hear this: The Physical Universe is stated to not have enough material to support their existence, stated in WW3 when Gabriel is about to blow stuff up iirc),

All of this was clearly in relation to the planet, Gabriel's explosion itself was specifically stated to, at its worst, send the planet out of orbit and to be akin to another planet colliding/exploding on the north pole.

so this could be prove that Phases can contain worlds that's more complex than 11D, clearly since Magic Gods did created a Phase like that to support their existence,

They didn't create a more complex Phase, they created a literal void that wouldn't be in danger of being destroyed to begin with, they did the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

as well as every other mythology beings with their true form comfortably existing in their own Phase. I don't know if there is any flaws in this logic or not, feel free to point them out. Oh, there's also the black world, don't know if the black world counts as another higher dimension or it's just a dimension without any Phases (except one).

It's not a higher dimension.

Or a better bet would be Ein Sof (dimensions beyond the Sephirot), but we have near to no information about that stuff yet, so I won't be assuming stuff here.

Agreed.

 

[Piamma]

Given we know of the elements that keep some kind of balance over the world (the ones Fiamma corrected) as well the Pure Elements that were shown later in NT, Elements really can't be higher? For sure?

I'm certain.

Let's revisit the basic definition of 'element.'

元素（げんそ）とは？ 意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

元素（げんそ）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。１ 万物の根源をなす、それ以上分割できない要素。ギリシャ哲学の四元素（地・水・空気・火）、仏典の四大（地・水・火・風）など。２ 原子番号の等しい原子だけからなる物質。現在は水素をはじめ118種とされる。他分野で用いる元素と区別して、化学元素ともいう。[補説]2で、自然界に存在するのは原子番号92のウランまで。93番以上の元素は超ウラン元素、104番以上の元素は超アクチノイド元素とよばれ、加速器を使... - goo国語辞書は30万9千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

According to the dictionary:

1. The fundamental, indivisible component of all things. For example, the four elements in Greek philosophy (earth, water, air, fire) and the four great elements in Buddhist scripture (earth, water, fire, wind).
   
   １ 万物の根源をなす、それ以上分割できない要素。ギリシャ哲学の四元素（地・水・空気・火）、仏典の四大（地・水・火・風）など。

An element refers to the smallest, indivisible unit.

There is no contradiction in the expansion from element to dimension to phase.

 

[korea1234]

In a given fictional world, there is a concept of "all integer dimensions" or "every integer dimension that can be expressed in integers." So far, the dimensions mentioned only go up to 11, but if we use the term "all integer dimensions," could this potentially expand into infinity? After all, "all integers" refers to every possible integer value.

Analysis:​

The phrase "all integer dimensions" suggests the inclusion of every dimension that can be quantified using integers, which inherently implies that it extends beyond the known 11 dimensions. In mathematical terms, integers are infinite, meaning that such a reference could encompass an infinite number of dimensions. Since "all integers" encompasses both positive and negative numbers, the concept could extend to an infinite range of dimensions, not limited by a specific upper bound. Therefore, using the term "all integer dimensions" could indeed imply an infinite extension of dimensions, making it possible to expand the dimensional structure of the world infinitely.

This is an analysis regarding GPT-4O.

If I provide the text referencing 'all integral number dimensions,' would that be accepted?"

@XDragnoir

Where do you stand on this logic?

 

[XDragnoir]

"I can't understand what you're saying.

In Japanese, the word '更に (sarani)' is translated as 'beyond,' which inherently carries the meaning of transcendence.

更に（さらに）とは？ 意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

更に（さらに）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。［副］１ 同じことが重なったり加わったりするさま。重ねて。加えて。その上に。「—一年の月日が過ぎた」「—こういう問題もある」２ 今までよりも程度が増すさま。前にも増して。いっそう。ますます。「—きれいになった」「事態は—悪くなった」３ （あとに打消しの語を伴って）いっこうに。まったく。少しも。「—覚えがない」「反省するようすは—なく」４ 事新しく。今さら。「—何事をかは疑ひ侍らむ」〈源・若菜上〉 - goo国語辞書は30万9千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

According to the dictionary:

1. The appearance of something being added or layered. On top of that. In addition.
2. The degree becoming more intense than before. More than before. Even more. Increasingly.
3. (When paired with a negating word) Gradually. Not at all. Not in the slightest. 'No memory whatsoever,' 'No sign of remorse whatsoever.'
4. Anew. At this point in time.

I don't understand why this wouldn't be considered transcendence."

Because it doesn't transcend anything? It's just another Phase, but it's strange one.

The very first meaning "The appearance of something being added or layered. On top of that. In addition." Clearly has it as "another one" a "new one" rather than one that's somehow superior to the others (which was not even the goal of what the Hidden Phase should be).

Not only that, but "transcending" Phases isn't the same as "transcending" dimensions, these two concepts aren't the same, you won't get any tier out of transcending Phases.

 

[XDragnoir]

@XDragnoir

Where do you stand on this logic?

Read my first post, it's the 4th point.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

This much is true.

Yes

This is a assumption that not only the dimensions are inferior, but that they're even related directly to begin with, that needs to be proven in and of itself.

What do you mean by this? My point is that using the Kabbalah, the humans are supposed to exists in the Physical Universe, and so if teleporters are inside the Physical Universe, their power is also contained by it too, you agreed to me on this. If so, Magic Gods who can crush that very world by their mere existence is transcendent to 11D (I used Gabriel not for destructive power, but to state a fact that the Physical Universe isn't complex enough to hold their power, just like how DK creates holes in reality just by existing, it's entirely different from "oh Goku has too much Ki that he could blow up the planet if he were to release all of them")

All of this was clearly in relation to the planet, Gabriel's explosion itself was specifically stated to, at its worst, send the planet out of orbit and to be akin to another planet colliding/exploding on the north pole.

Above

They didn't create a more complex Phase, they created a literal void that wouldn't be in danger of being destroyed to begin with, they did the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

This Phase is clearly complex, but again, I do agree that it is a void, but it's clearly more complex, read the description of the Hidden Phase again would ya?

It's not a higher dimension.

Okay, I see.

Agreed.

Thank god

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Also, I don't really want to use Hidden Phase to prove anything though it could be proof that Phases can be more transcendent, but really, we need to go over all that we have about this Phase to actually understand it, we have enough info I believe

 

[Piamma]

Because it doesn't transcend anything? It's just another Phase, but it's strange one.

The very first meaning "The appearance of something being added or layered. On top of that. In addition." Clearly has it as "another one" a "new one" rather than one that's somehow superior to the others (which was not even the goal of what the Hidden Phase should be).

Not only that, but "transcending" Phases isn't the same as "transcending" dimensions, these two concepts aren't the same, you won't get any tier out of transcending Phases.

Even though the pure world governed by physical laws and all religious mythological phases were destroyed, the Hidden Phase remained intact.

This alone indicates that the Hidden Phase is superior to the phases mentioned above.
Additionally, dimensions are merely a form of physical law.

The dimensions mentioned in Toaru refer only to the dimensional theory from Euclidean geometry, which is a part of physical laws.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Even though the pure world governed by physical laws and all religious mythological phases were destroyed, the Hidden Phase remained intact.

This alone indicates that the Hidden Phase is superior to the phases mentioned above.
Additionally, dimensions are merely a form of physical law.

The dimensions mentioned in Toaru refer only to the dimensional theory from Euclidean geometry, which is a part of physical laws.

This, I want to add in.

We all agreed that the 11D thing is a Physical Universe only thing right? Like we don't give Teleporters some kinda extreme authority of being able to reach all cosmology because they can reach 11D right? We are also not ignoring the Kabbalah here right? Right?

If so, Magic Gods who at least should be transcendent to the Physical Universe at least, would be AT LEAST 12D. Infinite dimensions or whatever I don't care, but at LEAST 12D.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yes

What do you mean by this? My point is that using the Kabbalah, the humans are supposed to exists in the Physical Universe, and so if teleporters are inside the Physical Universe, their power is also contained by it too, you agreed to me on this.

You're missing the point, it being part part of the "physical universe" has no bearing on what it means for the stuff that exists outside of the physical universe, you're assuming Phases are inherently superior to dimensions, but first you have to prove that.

If so, Magic Gods who can crush that very world (I used Gabriel not for destructive power, but to state a fact that the Physical Universe isn't complex enough to hold their power

Gabriel doesn't prove that because again, his statements weren't in relation to the whole universe and much less to higher dimensions.

This Phase is clearly complex, but again, I do agree that it is a void, but it's clearly more complex, read the description of the Hidden Phase again would ya?

Or you could provide the quotes you think would prove it as being somehow more complex than the dimensions (when it doesn't have dimensions to begin with as was explicitly stated)

 

[korea1234]

It doesn't have the exact wording you gave earlier, see what's the problem? Where are dimensions even mentioned here? To say nothing that "beyond" isn't necessarily the same as "transcending" (can be, isn't always).



You know that that passage has it going from Phases, then to Dimensions then to Elements, right? That would mean dimensions are hierarchically above Phases going by what you're saying, which seems against what most people here actually think of the relationship between these two concepts.

In the link that Fiamma gave me, it says that it transcends dimensions.

その『闇』は、次元すら超越するほどの圧倒的な破壊の力で、上条を追う。　今度はオティヌスのように和解はできない。　サンジェルマンのような『紛い物』でもない。真の魔神、真のグレムリンが迫り来る。

The meaning of "次元" is this.

What does 次元 (Jigen) mean in Japanese?

English words for 次元 include dimension and dimensionality. Find more Japanese words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

The meaning of “超越” is this.

What does 超越 (Chōetsu) mean in Japanese?

English words for 超越 include surpassed and transcended. Find more Japanese words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

 

[Piamma]

"Another characteristic of the Hidden Phase:

'The concept of distance or time is meaningless here. No matter where you go, you won't be able to leave. Well, if you did leave, you'd end up being scrutinized on a global scale like that "Othinus." You were in an eternal distance just beyond a thin membrane.'

'Grandpa~~ Have you gotten more forgetful since becoming a "mummy"? The "zombie girl" and the "chimera" are all here too. Still, in this place where the gap as thin as a strand of hair expands into an infinite distance, meeting each other is purely a matter of luck~'

In the Hidden Phase, the concepts of time and space are meaningless.
It's a place where a gap as small as a strand of hair can expand infinitely.

Time and space are also forms of physical laws.
My argument was that the Hidden Phase transcends the world of physical laws.

In addition to the above statements, it's confirmed that time and space, which are physical laws, become meaningless here.
How can that not be considered transcendence?"