12-D A Certain Magical Index

[MrOMG]

Guys, guys, leave your arguments about the Curtana. We need 0-level Ain Sof Aur, trust me. We make ToAru again(?).

 

[Piamma]

My thought, but for now it's just in my head. Sometimes you just knows it, but you just don't have enough information. If you want to at least try arguing with Curtana cutting infinite dimensions, try using the japanese scans and translate it yourself using gpt 4.0 or some powerful engine then see for yourselves if the argument is sound or not.

I personally think above Asiah is already Outer (I hate using scientific dimension in a religious setting, outside of the Physical Universe of course, inside it we can still use scientific concepts, so I 100% don't like calling anything above the Physical Universe merely "just 1 dimension higher" like bro what are you talking about "dimensions" outside of the Physical Universe)

You might not know, but I've already presented the Japanese text about Curtana here.
They have no intention of listening to me.

"What are you talking about 'dimensions' outside of the Physical Universe?"

What does this mean?
I don't think I've ever used such an expression.

Is it perhaps about the Hidden Phase?

 

[korea1234]

My thought, but for now it's just in my head. Sometimes you just knows it, but you just don't have enough information. If you want to at least try arguing with Curtana cutting infinite dimensions, try using the japanese scans and translate it yourself using gpt 4.0 or some powerful engine then see for yourselves if the argument is sound or not.

I personally think above Asiah is already Outer (I hate using scientific dimension in a religious setting, outside of the Physical Universe of course, inside it we can still use scientific concepts, so I 100% don't like calling anything above the Physical Universe merely "just 1 dimension higher" like bro what are you talking about "dimensions" outside of the Physical Universe)

Are you thinking of Asiah as Outer(1-A)?

 

[Piamma]

Guys, guys, leave your arguments about the Curtana. We need 0-level Ain Sof Aur, trust me. We make ToAru again(?).

There is currently nothing that can be said about Ain Sof. Not only is it not a phase, but there is also no being who can be definitively known to have reached that point.

As for the Magic Gods, they deviated from normal methods and are beings who used cheats, so they do not belong to the Kabbalah system in the first place.

Even Alice and expert-level magicians like Kingsford, or CRC cannot interfere with the destruction, creation, or manipulation of actual religious phases themselves.

In the case of Alice, it was described in GT volume 10 that she twists the world on the same level as Othinus.

However, in GT volume 11, she shows despair at not being able to revive Kamijou.

If she could truly interfere with the actual religious and mythological phases existing in the real world like a Magic God, she could simply revive Kamijou as Othinus did when she created a happy world.

Also, she can resurrect from death using Wonderland (as when she was killed by CRC).

However, when Alice was killed by Othinus in NT volume 9, she could not be revived.

Although it is said that her magic connects all theories regardless of magic and science, there are already two pieces of evidence that she cannot interfere with phases.

Therefore, it is unlikely that Alice is a being who has reached Ain Sof, and even less likely for Kingsford and CRC, who are lower than her.

 

[MrOMG]

There is currently nothing that can be said about Ain Sof. Not only is it not a phase, but there is also no being who can be definitively known to have reached that point.

As for the Magic Gods, they deviated from normal methods and are beings who used cheats, so they do not belong to the Kabbalah system in the first place.

Even Alice and expert-level magicians like Kingsford, or CRC cannot interfere with the destruction, creation, or manipulation of actual religious phases themselves.

In the case of Alice, it was described in GT volume 10 that she twists the world on the same level as Othinus.

However, in GT volume 11, she shows despair at not being able to revive Kamijou.

If she could truly interfere with the actual religious and mythological phases existing in the real world like a Magic God, she could simply revive Kamijou as Othinus did when she created a happy world.

Also, she can resurrect from death using Wonderland (as when she was killed by CRC).

However, when Alice was killed by Othinus in NT volume 9, she could not be revived.

Although it is said that her magic connects all theories regardless of magic and science, there are already two pieces of evidence that she cannot interfere with phases.

Therefore, it is unlikely that Alice is a being who has reached Ain Sof, and even less likely for Kingsford and CRC, who are lower than her.

I'm not talking about Alice. I'm talking about the creature (let's call him Ain, although technically he could have any name) who has to recreate the world after the Mo Atair ceremony.

 

[korea1234]

I'm not talking about Alice. I'm talking about the creature (let's call him Ain, although technically he could have any name) who has to recreate the world after the Mo Atair ceremony.

The creature that recreates the world after the Mo Atair ceremony? Where is such a character mentioned?

 

[korea1234]

There is currently nothing that can be said about Ain Sof. Not only is it not a phase, but there is also no being who can be definitively known to have reached that point.

As for the Magic Gods, they deviated from normal methods and are beings who used cheats, so they do not belong to the Kabbalah system in the first place.

Even Alice and expert-level magicians like Kingsford, or CRC cannot interfere with the destruction, creation, or manipulation of actual religious phases themselves.

In the case of Alice, it was described in GT volume 10 that she twists the world on the same level as Othinus.

However, in GT volume 11, she shows despair at not being able to revive Kamijou.

If she could truly interfere with the actual religious and mythological phases existing in the real world like a Magic God, she could simply revive Kamijou as Othinus did when she created a happy world.

Also, she can resurrect from death using Wonderland (as when she was killed by CRC).

However, when Alice was killed by Othinus in NT volume 9, she could not be revived.

Although it is said that her magic connects all theories regardless of magic and science, there are already two pieces of evidence that she cannot interfere with phases.

Therefore, it is unlikely that Alice is a being who has reached Ain Sof, and even less likely for Kingsford and CRC, who are lower than her.

To summarize,

Magic god > Alice > CRC , Kingsford

However, people here don't accept that Magic god is the strongest.

It's really too bad.

 

[MrOMG]

The creature that recreates the world after the Mo Atair ceremony? Where is such a character mentioned?

Coronzon explicitly hinted that after the ceremony, someone will create a new generation of Adam and Eve. The current generation is doomed, the divine mechanisms are worn out beyond recognition (distortion of the four elements), so Coronzon wants to destroy the current generation to give the future generation a chance.

 

[Piamma]

I'm not talking about Alice. I'm talking about the creature (let's call him Ain, although technically he could have any name) who has to recreate the world after the Mo Atair ceremony.

Let’s assume that, as you said, Choronzon’s Mo Atair ceremony was successfully performed.

First of all, if the Hidden Phase existed, the ceremony would have no effect on it. The Mo Atair ceremony is designed to thoroughly destroy the physical world, including religious and mythological aspects, but it cannot destroy the Hidden Phase, which transcends all of that.

And Choronzon’s goal was to simply break down everything, including herself.
If it succeeded, wouldn’t that be the end of the work itself?

Speculating about something that didn’t result in anything seems pointless to me.

 

[MrOMG]

Let’s assume that, as you said, Choronzon’s Mo Atair ceremony was successfully performed.

First of all, if the Hidden Phase existed, the ceremony would have no effect on it. The Mo Atair ceremony is designed to thoroughly destroy the physical world, including religious and mythological aspects, but it cannot destroy the Hidden Phase, which transcends all of that.

And Choronzon’s goal was to simply break down everything, including herself.
If it succeeded, wouldn’t that be the end of the work itself?

Speculating about something that didn’t result in anything seems pointless to me.

Coronzon's goal was the destruction of everyone, including Imagine breakers, Grimmuars, and Magical Gods, who were eternal and unchanging beings. All for the future generation. Even if the ceremony, could not destroy the Hidden World, it would kill everyone.

And Coronzon knows for a fact that the world will restart

 

[Piamma]

Coronzon explicitly hinted that after the ceremony, someone will create a new generation of Adam and Eve. The current generation is doomed, the divine mechanisms are worn out beyond recognition (distortion of the four elements), so Coronzon wants to destroy the current generation to give the future generation a chance.

"Is this the passage you are trying to convey?"

A half-hearted destruction would be meaningless. If anything remains, and even one distortion of ‘eternity’ occurs, the same thing will just keep repeating. I will destroy all of the ten spheres, the twenty-three paths, and even the hidden symbol of the eleventh, returning everything to nothing. A clash of phases? Sparks and droplets? Such symptomatic treatments won’t save anyone. It's necessary to eliminate all fundamental blockages. Everything is done to pass the baton to ‘the next one.’
Destroying everything that exists now and passing it on to the next would lead to accumulation. It doesn’t even have to be a mere human. Whether it’s something that naturally rises, be it a demi-human, one with wings, a giant amoeba without a spine, or even an octopus-shaped cosmic creature with eight legs—it doesn’t matter.

But this is, after all, just her thoughts and assumptions.
There is no evidence to support that things will actually turn out this way."

For now, she probably doesn’t even know about the existence of the Hidden Phase, which lies beyond the world of physical laws and all religious or mythological phases.

 

[Piamma]

Coronzon's goal was the destruction of everyone, including Imagine breakers, Grimmuars, and Magical Gods, who were eternal and unchanging beings. All for the future generation. Even if the ceremony, could not destroy the Hidden World, it would kill everyone.

And Coronzon knows for a fact that the world will restart

"She only became aware of the Magic gods that exist in the world after Aleister shattered the non-existence of the Hidden Phase and brought them into the real world.

Perhaps, as in your thoughts and Choronzon's lines, someone might be able to recreate the world.
However, at this point, we have no text that allows us to speculate about that."

 

[MrOMG]

But this is, after all, just her thoughts and assumptions.
There is no evidence to support that things will actually turn out this way."

For now, she probably doesn’t even know about the existence of the Hidden Phase, which lies beyond the world of physical laws and all religious or mythological phases.

Why doesn't she know about the Hidden Phase? What's the proof? Why a creature like Coronzon, who's knowledge surpasses even Aleister, couldn't know about the Hidden Phase. Even though the current generation was created by someone.

 

[korea1234]

Coronzon's goal was the destruction of everyone, including Imagine breakers, Grimmuars, and Magical Gods, who were eternal and unchanging beings. All for the future generation. Even if the ceremony, could not destroy the Hidden World, it would kill everyone.

And Coronzon knows for a fact that the world will restart

I agree with Piamma, it's never been proven, it's just a hypothesis from Coronzon.

 

[MrOMG]

I agree with Piamma, it's never been proven, it's just a hypothesis from Coronzon.

So Coronzon decided to destroy the entire world because...hypothesis????

 

[Piamma]

Why doesn't she know about the Hidden Phase? What's the proof? Why a creature like Coronzon, who's knowledge surpasses even Aleister, couldn't know about the Hidden Phase. Even though the current generation was created by someone.

you need to first prove that they know about this , right?

Have you ever seen Kingsford, CRC, Anna, or Alice—despite being superior to Aleister—mention or be described as knowing about the Hidden Phase?

Even in the case of the hundreds of billions of hells that Othinus and Kamijou experienced (the events of NT9), only the true Magic Gods have clearly known and spoken about that process.

Other than that, no beings have ever mentioned or known about the events they went through.

All they know is that the world was completely destroyed once. (Though it wasn't even just once.)

 

[korea1234]

Why doesn't she know about the Hidden Phase? What's the proof? Why a creature like Coronzon, who's knowledge surpasses even Aleister, couldn't know about the Hidden Phase. Even though the current generation was created by someone.

Even Othinus, with his 103,000 books of knowledge, was unaware of the existence of the hidden phases.

 

[MrOMG]

you need to first prove that they know about this , right?

Have you ever seen Kingsford, CRC, Anna, or Alice—despite being superior to Aleister—mention or be described as knowing about the Hidden Phase?

Even in the case of the hundreds of billions of hells that Othinus and Kamijou experienced (the events of NT9), only the true Magic Gods have clearly known and spoken about that process.

Other than that, no beings have ever mentioned or known about the events they went through.

All they know is that the world was completely destroyed once. (Though it wasn't even just once.)

Why would they even mention the Hidden Phase, just why??? Was there a situation where they had to mention the Hidden Phase????

 

[MrOMG]

Even Othinus, with his 103,000 books of knowledge, was unaware of the existence of the hidden phases.

Othinus≠Coronzon.The fact that she didn't know about the Hidden Phase doesn't mean Coronzon doesn't know about it.Why is the Hidden Phase important?

 

[Piamma]

So Coronzon decided to destroy the entire world because...hypothesis????

First of all, the reason Aleister knows about the Hidden Phase is because he was already acquainted with the true Magic Gods.

They were not meeting for the first time when they encountered each other in NT Volume 10.

"Well, well, look at this."

Squinting against the intense white light pouring in from outside, someone narrowed their eyes. This "someone" gazed at the underling who had stepped into the realm of the gods with dirty feet.

"I wondered why you hadn't been around lately. Have you been here doing tearful odd jobs?"

A hoarse voice spoke, as if calling out a nostalgic name.

"Human, Aleister Crowley."

"Leaving Othinus unattended is indeed a problem, but I decided to rely on the world's resilience for that. As a result, we did experience a collapse once. But even considering that, I needed to prioritize this side. It was a tremendous struggle converting coordinates filled with nonexistent numbers into decimal form."

Even Aleister, who knows about the Hidden Phase and the true Magic Gods, doesn't know the exact details of the events in NT9. So how can other beings claim to know about the Hidden Phase without any evidence?

Furthermore, unlike Kingsford, CRC, and Alice, Aleister is someone who could have become a Magic God if he had focused on being acknowledged by them.

It is not appropriate to use him as a standard.

 

[korea1234]

So Coronzon decided to destroy the entire world because...hypothesis????

I'm not saying that the mention of destroying the world is hypothetical, I'm saying that the idea of someone recreating the world after it's destroyed is hypothetical.

 

[Piamma]

Why would they even mention the Hidden Phase, just why??? Was there a situation where they had to mention the Hidden Phase????

on the contrary, please provide even a single piece of evidence that she knows about it—any related mentions, for example.

 

[MrOMG]

First of all, the reason Aleister knows about the Hidden Phase is because he was already acquainted with the true Magic Gods.

They were not meeting for the first time when they encountered each other in NT Volume 10.

"Well, well, look at this."

Squinting against the intense white light pouring in from outside, someone narrowed their eyes. This "someone" gazed at the underling who had stepped into the realm of the gods with dirty feet.

"I wondered why you hadn't been around lately. Have you been here doing tearful odd jobs?"

A hoarse voice spoke, as if calling out a nostalgic name.

"Human, Aleister Crowley."

"Leaving Othinus unattended is indeed a problem, but I decided to rely on the world's resilience for that. As a result, we did experience a collapse once. But even considering that, I needed to prioritize this side. It was a tremendous struggle converting coordinates filled with nonexistent numbers into decimal form."

Even Aleister, who knows about the Hidden Phase and the true Magic Gods, doesn't know the exact details of the events in NT9. So how can other beings claim to know about the Hidden Phase without any evidence?

Furthermore, unlike Kingsford, CRC, and Alice, Aleister is someone who could have become a Magic God if he had focused on being acknowledged by them.

It is not appropriate to use him as a standard.

She knew about the existence of Magical Gods and that was enough, no need to bring in the Hidden Phase. The Ceremony should kill everyone and everything without exception.

I'm not saying that the mention of destroying the world is hypothetical, I'm saying that the idea of someone recreating the world after it's destroyed is hypothetical.

She want to destroy the world because she knows the world will be restarted. Otherwise, her wish is no sense.

on the contrary, please provide even a single piece of evidence that she knows about it—any related mentions, for example.

You're the one who said that CRC or Anna didn't know about the Hidden Phase just because they didn't talk about it, not me.

 

[MrOMG]

Somehow, this seems to be off-topic, but if you want to argue for Toaru High 1-B, I suggest you make a separate post. I can help with that.

I wanted to do this using Curtana at one point, but it didn't work out. This sword alone is not enough to level up for ToAru

 

[korea1234]

She knew about the existence of Magical Gods and that was enough, no need to bring in the Hidden Phase. The Ceremony should kill everyone and everything without exception.

She want to destroy the world because she knows the world will be restarted. Otherwise, her wish is no sense.

You're the one who said that CRC or Anna didn't know about the Hidden Phase just because they didn't talk about it, not me.

Hidden phase exist outside of the "world", but coronzon only destroy the "world".

 

[Piamma]

She knew about the existence of Magical Gods and that was enough, no need to bring in the Hidden Phase. The Ceremony should kill everyone and everything without exception.

She want to destroy the world because she knows the world will be restarted. Otherwise, her wish is no sense.

You're the one who said that CRC or Anna didn't know about the Hidden Phase just because they didn't talk about it, not me.

I must have already told you.
Coronzon only learned about the Magic Gods after they were pulled into the real world.

If there's any mention of her knowing about them before that, could you bring it up?

All magicians are aware of the concept that Magic Gods exist.

However, the first time a Magic God's exists was directly confirmed in the story was with Othinus,
and Coronzon (Laura) had not mentioned any other Magic Gods even once before then."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

You might not know, but I've already presented the Japanese text about Curtana here.
They have no intention of listening to me.

"What are you talking about 'dimensions' outside of the Physical Universe?"

What does this mean?
I don't think I've ever used such an expression.

Is it perhaps about the Hidden Phase?

This means that I think talking about the physical terms "dimensionality" outside of the Physical universe is kinda stupid, because my point here his, people still thinks Toaru is 11D because they're still stucking with "dimensionality" when I think this "dimensionality" is likely just in the range of the Physical Universe, as again, it's physics and I don't see any structure above the Physical universe to have any kind of normal Physical laws, cause they're religious.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Are you thinking of Asiah as Outer(1-A)?

Above Asiah to be exact (or at least only the Physical Universe isn't 1-A)

 

[Piamma]

This means that I think talking about the physical terms "dimensionality" outside of the Physical universe is kinda stupid, because my point here his, people still thinks Toaru is 11D because they're still stucking with "dimensionality" when I think this "dimensionality" is likely just in the range of the Physical Universe, as again, it's physics and I don't see any structure above the Physical universe to have any kind of normal Physical laws, cause they're religious.

I have already mentioned several times that the element known as 'dimension' simply exists within the world governed by physical laws.
And that is certain.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Guys, guys, leave your arguments about the Curtana. We need 0-level Ain Sof Aur, trust me. We make ToAru again(?).

leave Ein Sof there, we ain't touching it that fast, not now at least.

 

[MrOMG]

I must have already told you.
Coronzon only learned about the Magic Gods after they were pulled into the real world.

If there's any mention of her knowing about them before that, could you bring it up?

All magicians are aware of the concept that Magic Gods exist.

However, the first time a Magic God's exists was directly confirmed in the story was with Othinus,
and Coronzon (Laura) had not mentioned any other Magic Gods even once before then."

The fact that Coronzon doesn't know about MGs is at least odd(although she knows a lot about IB). Even if she somehow, despite being one of the smartest and most erudite characters in the entire series, the ceremony should still kill off Mgs

Hidden phase exist outside of the "world", but coronzon only destroy the "world".

Coronzon wants to destroy everything, including the Mgs

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I have already mentioned several times that the element known as 'dimension' simply exists within the world governed by physical laws.
And that is certain.

Yeah, so our point's the same right? Now because I heard that you're knowledgeable about Japanese (I wish I could be the same, trying), could you read the JPN raw and find enough evidence for this?

 

[MrOMG]

Above Asiah to be exact (or at least only the Physical Universe isn't 1-A)

Yeah. I'm thinking the Phases should be 1-A because they can't be described with numbers and words.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Also about Coronzon and the Hidden Phase, I thought the Hidden Phase is still a Phase and what Coronzon was trying to destroy was something larger (the whole Sephirot)?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Yeah. I'm thinking the Phases should be 1-A because they can't be described with numbers and words.

scans? Though I kinda remember this.

 

[korea1234]

Yeah, so our point's the same right? Now because I heard that you're knowledgeable about Japanese (I wish I could be the same, trying), could you read the JPN raw and find enough evidence for this?

If it were clear that the concept of "dimension" only exists in the physical world, Toaru would be beyond High 1-B.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Anyways, I firmly believe that Index has at least enough evidence to be 12D (those with H1B or 1A arguments, I would love to have nice scans for proof, I can't with this "Toaru is 11D" anymore). We need Japanese scans, not english ones (I still remember how Hoyoverse scaling went stupidly hard thanks to mistranslation)

 

[MrOMG]

scans? Though I kinda remember this.

It was a phenomenon that destroyed the basic concept of counting, but that was just what the domain at the top was like. The Sephirot used various words and numbers to create an explanation of the spiritual world, but organizations above a certain level could not be explained using words, so they were intentionally omitted.

Did someone who entered that domain reach one of those upper organizations or did reaching one of those upper organizations cause one's domain to transform into that domain?

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

If it were clear that the concept of "dimension" only exists in the physical world, Toaru would be beyond High 1-B.

just call it 1A. I'm certain Toaru is 1A, I just needs the scans. Nothing beats nice scans (in Japanese)

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。
this is a weird one, since again, it was stated that the Sephirot is just a depiction of human realm and angels and gods are beings above, but those same angels and gods are bounded by the same tree (it's laws and stuff, you know Angel Falls). I don't know if I should trust these words (this is Index's words right?) but it goes against what we've seen so far, unless this "realm" they're talking about is just Ein Sof and the Angels are not the same as the Phase Angels from heaven Phase.