12-D A Certain Magical Index

[Piamma]

Also about Coronzon and the Hidden Phase, I thought the Hidden Phase is still a Phase and what Coronzon was trying to destroy was something larger (the whole Sephirot)?

"Sephiroth and Qliphoth are, after all, components included within the world.
They are not higher than the Hidden Phase.
In GT volume 11, it is clearly stated that Sephiroth is the arrangement of the tree and the access route connecting the present world and heaven, and Qliphoth is the arrangement of the tree and the access route connecting hell and the present world.
They are simply components of the world."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"Sephiroth and Qliphoth are, after all, components included within the world.
They are not higher than the Hidden Phase.
In GT volume 11, it is clearly stated that Sephiroth is the arrangement of the tree and the access route connecting the present world and heaven, and Qliphoth is the arrangement of the tree and the access route connecting hell and the present world.
They are simply components of the world."

ah yes, I haven't read GT11, anymore interesting statements and feats from it? Also stated by who?

 

[MrOMG]

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。
this is a weird one, since again, it was stated that the Sephirot is just a depiction of human realm and angels and gods are beings above, but those same angels and gods are bounded by the same tree (it's laws and stuff, you know Angel Falls). I don't know if I should trust these words (this is Index's words right?) but it goes against what we've seen so far, unless this "realm" they're talking about is just Ein Sof and the Angels are not the same as the Phase Angels from heaven Phase.

Nah, it's from Guidebook

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Nah, it's from Guidebook

Trustworthy meter instant drop to 10% though I do remember statement like this in the Novel itself

 

[Piamma]

I currently have all the original Japanese texts of 'Toaru' that exist.
Please tell me exactly what you're requesting from me.

I will find that passage for you.

 

[MrOMG]

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。
this is a weird one, since again, it was stated that the Sephirot is just a depiction of human realm and angels and gods are beings above, but those same angels and gods are bounded by the same tree (it's laws and stuff, you know Angel Falls). I don't know if I should trust these words (this is Index's words right?) but it goes against what we've seen so far, unless this "realm" they're talking about is just Ein Sof and the Angels are not the same as the Phase Angels from heaven Phase.

Most likely there is a recursion of the Tree of Sephiroth. Like, Sefirot of the human world, Sefirot of the world of angels, etc. The original Kaballah also speaks about infinite recursion of hierarchies of the Tree of Sefirot, within one Malkut Infinity.

“The separate image of the Four Worlds from which power is drawn becomes a different Four Worlds like the moon’s reflection in a lake.”

“Just like the endless reflection of opposing mirrors, they overlap like the rings of a powerful tree and provide the power to gaze into the abyss. As the identical symbols approach, have them resonate, just as the slightest breeze can occasionally break a stone bridge and send it plunging into the sea.”

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I currently have all the original Japanese texts of 'Toaru' that exist.
Please tell me exactly what you're requesting from me.

I will find that passage for you.

Holy, god sent.
Firstly I need that one statement that Curtana can cut all whole numbers in Japanese
Secondly, do you think the statement that Curtana can cut beings from other Phase is reliable or not? Cause it didn't hurt Gabriel at all (also scans for this one too, you know the volume)

 

[Piamma]

ah yes, I haven't read GT11, anymore interesting statements and feats from it? Also stated by who?

"The ones who mention the two trees are CRC and Kingsford."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Most likely there is a recursion of the Tree of Sephiroth. Like, Sefirot of the human world, Sefirot of the world of angels, etc. The original Kaballah also speaks about infinite recursion of hierarchies of the Tree of Sefirot, within one Malkut Infinity.

interesting

 

[MrOMG]

Trustworthy meter instant drop to 10% though I do remember statement like this in the Novel itself

The quote I posted, which says that the Phases cannot be described with words and numbers, also says that the Tree of Sephiroth describes the spiritual world. The Guidebook simply clarifies this point.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"The ones who mention the two trees are CRC and Kingsford."

Trustworthy level 99% (I trust mommy Kingsford)

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

The quote I posted, which says that the Phases cannot be described with words and numbers, also says that the Tree of Sephiroth describes the spiritual world. The Guidebook simply clarifies this point.

Yeah, I don't have problem with the fact Phases can't be described with numbers (scans please now I just realized), if this is true, I need people to clarify if this means Outer

 

[MrOMG]

Yeah, I don't have problem with the fact Phases can't be described with numbers (scans please now I just realized), if this is true, I need people to clarify if this means Outer

It was a phenomenon that destroyed the basic concept of counting, but that was just what the domain at the top was like. The Sephirot used various words and numbers to create an explanation of the spiritual world, but organizations above a certain level could not be explained using words, so they were intentionally omitted.

Did someone who entered that domain reach one of those upper organizations or did reaching one of those upper organizations cause one's domain to transform into that domain?

 

[korea1234]

In my opinion, it would be better to create a separate thread for the Toaru High 1-B upgrade.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

In my opinion, it would be better to create a separate thread for the Toaru High 1-B upgrade.

Just name it "upgrade" instead, I smell Outer

 

[MrOMG]

Just name it "upgrade" instead, I smell Outer

In your dreams

 

[korea1234]

Just name it "upgrade" instead, I smell Outer

I'm a foreigner, so I'm not familiar with English.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"Did someone who entered that domain reach one of those upper organizations or did reaching one of those upper organizations cause one's domain to transform into that domain?"

What is this "upper organizations"? Like what level are we currently at now? More context to support that these are Phases?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

In your dreams

Just need to find a way to prove it

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I'm a foreigner, so I'm not familiar with English.

It means that in case we can get higher than H1B we won't need to have another post, just name it "Toaru tiering upgrade"

 

[Piamma]

Holy, god sent.
Firstly I need that one statement that Curtana can cut all whole numbers in Japanese
Secondly, do you think the statement that Curtana can cut beings from other Phase is reliable or not? Cause it didn't hurt Gabriel at all (also scans for this one too, you know the volume)

Regarding the second question, you're missing the key point.
It's not that Curtana can cut beings from other dimensions because it can sever all dimensions. It's because it wields the power of Archangel Michael that it can cut beings from other dimensions.

Since the heavenly phase fundamentally exists above the material world, Aiwass, whose true form exists in the material world, cannot oppose that power.

You say Curtana couldn't cut Gabriel?

It sequentially severs the ice wings that bring death. Even with Curtana and Durandal, they couldn't inflict even a scratch on the archangel's palm. The movements of the two swords softly stop as if being absorbed.

That's simply due to her lack of combat skill.

Since Gabriel's ice wings are part of Gabriel's body, the assumption that she cannot be cut when her wings can be severed is incorrect.
If it hits directly, it can kill.

The same goes for Aiwass.
In the case of Aiwass, if Carissa or Elizard were to confront Aiwass head-on, they wouldn't last even a second and would die instantly. However, if Aiwass's true form that exists in the material world were to just stand there and be struck by Curtana, Aiwass would die.

This was already mentioned in NT22 Reverse.
'If it only hits.'

If that queen uses her full power.
That sword is the ultimate warrant that completely governs the land of England, which consists of three factions and four regions. Within the same country, it can partially draw out the power of the Archangel 'Michael (He Who Is Like God).' When someone qualified releases its power once, along with that single slash, it simultaneously cuts through all dimensions, and along the line of that slash, massive debris is left behind.
Yes, all dimensions.
That extraordinary power becomes a slash that, if it hits, can simultaneously kill beings hiding in other phases beyond the world's walls—for example, even Aiwass, the Holy Guardian Angel standing on the lowest layer of physical laws.

This is the relevant passage."

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Nah, it's from Guidebook

Question. Could you post the raws for this guidebook in an imgur? Also, for credibility's sake, was this guidebook written by Kamachi?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Regarding the second question, you're missing the key point.
It's not that Curtana can cut beings from other dimensions because it can sever all dimensions. It's because it wields the power of Archangel Michael that it can cut beings from other dimensions.

Since the heavenly phase fundamentally exists above the material world, Aiwass, whose true form exists in the material world, cannot oppose that power.

You say Curtana couldn't cut Gabriel?



That's simply due to her lack of combat skill.

Since Gabriel's ice wings are part of Gabriel's body, the assumption that she cannot be cut when her wings can be severed is incorrect.
If it hits directly, it can kill.

The same goes for Aiwass.
In the case of Aiwass, if Carissa or Elizard were to confront Aiwass head-on, they wouldn't last even a second and would die instantly. However, if Aiwass's true form that exists in the material world were to just stand there and be struck by Curtana, Aiwass would die.

This was already mentioned in NT22 Reverse.
'If it only hits.'



This is the relevant passage."

Yes, all dimensions. -> they mentioned "all dimensions" here, yeah, this power is relevant to the fact that it can hurt beings from other Phases in this context

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

also

That's simply due to her lack of combat skill.

This, did Carissa use the slash that cut all dimensions on Gabriel? Or did she not? I don't really remember this (currently rereading OT)

 

[Piamma]

Question. Could you post the raws for this guidebook in an imgur? Also, for credibility's sake, was this guidebook written by Kamachi?

"Regarding that guidebook, if you're talking about 'All About A Certain Magical Index', it was released in 2007. It only contains content up to volume ot13. The material is too outdated.
It's like stating that the Third Hokage in Naruto is described as the strongest Hokage."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

The strongest property of the Curtana is the slash that cuts all dimensions, and stated that it's thanks to the power of Gabriel that it could do so.

Also about the ice wings, it counts as Gabriel's body, but even Kanzaki could cut them like normal. Carissa can do the same, but failed to cut through Gabriel's main body, what's the problem here? Is this really just "lack of skills"?

 

[Piamma]

also

This, did Carissa use the slash that cut all dimensions on Gabriel? Or did she not? I don't really remember this (currently rereading OT)

It's unclear.
The battle descriptions themselves are far too lacking."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"Regarding that guidebook, if you're talking about 'All About A Certain Magical Index', it was released in 2007. It only contains content up to volume ot13. The material is too outdated.
It's like stating that the Third Hokage in Naruto is described as the strongest Hokage."

Credibility goes to 0% then?

 

[Piamma]

The strongest property of the Curtana is the slash that cuts all dimensions, and stated that it's thanks to the power of Gabriel that it could do so.

Also about the ice wings, it counts as Gabriel's body, but even Kanzaki could cut them like normal. Carissa can do the same, but failed to cut through Gabriel's main body, what's the problem here? Is this really just "lack of skills"?

mention of technique isn't something I made up.
'What’s going on! Barbarian!! Wasn't the Curtana filled with the same power as the archangels?!'
'Tch, in terms of sheer power, it seems to be holding up, but I don’t have the knowledge of angels, and it feels like I’m losing in terms of technique, not power. What about you?'
This is a line from the original text."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

It's unclear.
The battle descriptions themselves are far too lacking."

She must have, she's been using that power to cuts everything, even fodders, no way she didn't used it on Gabriel. But one more thing, Kanzaki and such have clashed swords with her once, and if Curtana can cut through all dimensions, why the heck then Kanzaki, knights leader and Acqua's swords remains fine? This still bugging me, maybe activating the slash isn't that easy and needs some time?

But still, I simply don't believe that she wouldn't use the stronger application of the sword on Gabriel (or maybe because it's the power that Gabriel has, it doesn't works)

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

mention of technique isn't something I made up.
'What’s going on! Barbarian!! Wasn't the Curtana filled with the same power as the archangels?!'
'Tch, in terms of sheer power, it seems to be holding up, but I don’t have the knowledge of angels, and it feels like I’m losing in terms of technique, not power. What about you?'
This is a line from the original text."

Oh, I'm so gonna reread this volume, many things are confusing as heck here, what does "technique" has to do when you have the power to cut through all things? Also what does "knowledge of angels" even helps here? Maybe it's a hint that she don't know the weakness of the angel to cut it?

 

[korea1234]

This link has a scan of the original Japanese text that says you can truncate all dimension that can be expressed as integers.

 

[Piamma]

Credibility goes to 0% then?

The mentions of the Sephiroth were sufficiently elaborated on in the later OT, NT, and GT series.
There’s no reason to prioritize the guidebook over descriptions that came out later.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

But again, this thing here is describing the fact that Carissa ain't holding up to Gabriel instead, not because that it can't cut Gabriel

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

This link has a scan of the original Japanese text that says you can truncate all dimension that can be expressed as integers.

I swear if my screentranslator fails...

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

This "The blow before him was capable of severing all dimensions, expressed in whole numbers." is the reason why this argument failed (unless chat GPT is stupid).
it can sever "all dimensions" that can be expressed in whole numbers, the keyword here is "all", they argued that "all" here is limited to the Toaru cosmology and because of that Curtana can only sever "all dimensions that can be expressed in whole numbers" in the Toaru cosmology and even if we were to bring this to a H1B cosmology it would only cut 11. I see the logic in this argument, so this is a big problem.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

however with "The Sephirot used various words and numbers to create an explanation of the spiritual world, but organizations above a certain level could not be explained using words, so they were intentionally omitted."
could be a prove that this "realm" his Outer, since Carissa can describe higher dimension as "can be expressed with intergers", meaning it can be described with words.

 

[XDragnoir]

First, this thread is a mess, y'all have already pretty much dropped the original proposal related to 12D that's in the OP to discuss completely unrelated topics.

Second, the only agreement I could see from y'all is that "11D bad, we want higher" but there barely seems to be an agreement on how all these different things (Phases, Sephiroth, Dimensions, etc) work and how they're meant to scale in relation to each other and in relation to specific characters.

Third, the 12D argument is bad because espers use the "11th dimension" not the "eleventh spatial dimension", you'd need a statement saying exactly what the 2nd says to use the logic you're proposing for 12D (someone else had given a similar explanation in the first page, but whatever).

Fourth, the arguments for Curtana are also really bad (and someone legitimately used ChatGPT to create an argument? That's kinda sad, ngl) because, as others explained, "dimensions that can be expressed" doesn't mean "all numbers correspond to a dimension". I like this as much as y'all, I don't want 11D either, but if the statements are flawed they're flawed and that's it.

In the case of the Hidden Phase, it transcends the material world, dimensions, and all religious and mythological phases.

Give me a quote with that exact wording.

And although I don't particularly like discussing other universes, in Fate, even though only about 6-8 dimensions actually appear, just one character's line—"surpassed all dimensional theories"—grants the feat of transcending dimensions.

Give me a similar statement in Toaru.

Like, not just you, Piamma, but everyone here seems to miss the simple fact that the actual relationship between dimensions, phases and the Sephiroth has not been properly explained (I didn't read GT11 yet, NO spoilers).

 

[Piamma]

This "The blow before him was capable of severing all dimensions, expressed in whole numbers." is the reason why this argument failed (unless chat GPT is stupid).
it can sever "all dimensions" that can be expressed in whole numbers, the keyword here is "all", they argued that "all" here is limited to the Toaru cosmology and because of that Curtana can only sever "all dimensions that can be expressed in whole numbers" in the Toaru cosmology and even if we were to bring this to a H1B cosmology it would only cut 11. I see the logic in this argument, so this is a big problem.

In a given fictional world, there is a concept of "all integer dimensions" or "every integer dimension that can be expressed in integers." So far, the dimensions mentioned only go up to 11, but if we use the term "all integer dimensions," could this potentially expand into infinity? After all, "all integers" refers to every possible integer value.

Analysis:​

The phrase "all integer dimensions" suggests the inclusion of every dimension that can be quantified using integers, which inherently implies that it extends beyond the known 11 dimensions. In mathematical terms, integers are infinite, meaning that such a reference could encompass an infinite number of dimensions. Since "all integers" encompasses both positive and negative numbers, the concept could extend to an infinite range of dimensions, not limited by a specific upper bound. Therefore, using the term "all integer dimensions" could indeed imply an infinite extension of dimensions, making it possible to expand the dimensional structure of the world infinitely.

This is an analysis regarding GPT-4O.

If I provide the text referencing 'all integral number dimensions,' would that be accepted?"

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Third, the 12D argument is bad because espers use the "11th dimension" not the "eleventh spatial dimension", you'd need a statement saying exactly what the 2nd says to use the logic you're proposing for 12D (someone else had given a similar explanation in the first page, but whatever).

yeah (edited, I was having a stroke)