1000 years of Sorcery. Kenjaku Vs Frieren

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Geniuses who have spent a millennium polishing their craft, mastering concepts that few others could even hope to grasp.

The Ancient Sorcerer:

The Last Great Mage:

Speed is equalized

Both have prior knowledge of each other abilities, including knowing the basics of their respective power systems.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ouuuuu

I’ll be debating for Frieren since JJk has enough supporters, although I feel like Frieren has some sort of disadvantage for curses iirc.

 

[Spinoirr]

Funny thing is I know more about her then JjK

 

[azontr]

Without equalized power systems, Frieren has no real way to deal with Cursed Spirit Manipulation.

Kenjaku just surrounds himself with Spirits and she really can't damage him.

Not to mention, most of Frieren's attacks he can just disperse with Anti-Gravity Reversal the moment they step into his range. And if she gets close she kinda just gets crushed by Class M gravity.

I'm not voting yet, but I'm just saying my initial thoughts on the match up.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Is verse equalization applicable in this scenario? I don't know if they are similar enough to do so, or the rules behind that.

 

[azontr]

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

This is the rule, or at least the first paragraph of it, and I personally don't think Cursed Energy and Mana are similar enough to equalize, but I'd ask for more input.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Is verse equalization applicable in this scenario? I don't know if they are similar enough to do so, or the rules behind that.

The energy systems have to be similar. Frieren's energy system is magic. JJK's energy system is thoughts given form

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The energy systems have to be similar. Frieren's energy system is magic. JJK's energy system is thoughts given form

It might seem crazy what I’m about to say

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

It might seem crazy what I’m about to say

Sunshine she's here, you can take a break

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Sunshine she's here, you can take a break

Hehe

But yeah the magic is also thought given form.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Hehe

But yeah the magic is also thought given form.

To be more specific, Cursed Energy is directly formed from negative emotion

and is just straight up not magic

 

[Arnoldstone18]

To be more specific, Cursed Energy is directly formed from negative emotion

and is just straight up not magic

I mean magic is only a name given to the system. For all we know, anything supernatural can just as easily be called magic.

SBA doesn’t really care about this, Infact it lets anti magic affect other supernatural energies that isn’t called magic but behave similar to the verse’s nature of magic it negs.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I mean magic is only a name given to the system. For all we know, anything supernatural can just as easily be called magic.

SBA doesn’t really care about this, Infact it lets anti magic affect other supernatural energies that isn’t called magic but behave similar to the verse’s nature of magic it negs.

True

But the fundamental behaviors of either energy system aren't mechanically similar enough

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Strong Cursed Spirit Army + Strong Gravity slam + Strong Domain = Kenjaku gg.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That is true, but the fundamental behaviors of either energy system aren't mechanically similar enough

Well SBA is notoriously vague when it comes to these things but it’s there just so a match can work when it technically shouldn’t.

I personally find them similar enough to be equalized, however I don’t mind whatever the masses agree with.

Wanna just list out the fundamentals of CE while I respond to why I think it’s similar, then we get a staff in here to verify its sinilarities?

 

[Cimafranca133]

Can Frieren see Kenjaku's curse spirits?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Can Frieren see Kenjaku's curse spirits?

Yep. She can see spirits.

 

[azontr]

Hehe

But yeah the magic is also thought given form.

That's "Magic".

"Mana" is an entirely different thing. Mana is the energy source that fuels Magic, Magic is the practice of one's imagination given form. This is wildly different from an energy source that is literally thought, and emotions.

I think we should be more aware of the fact that Magic is not Frieren's energy system, Mana is, and Mana has very little similarities with Cursed Energy.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Magic power* (yeah I recently learned not called mana too but rather Maryoku which is magic power idc if you call it mana tho)

I mean sure, but you do realize said cursed energy is also a form of energy used to manifest these thoughts and emotions right?

It’s not really complicated, both verses have energy systems that manifest literal thoughts and emotions. That’s the similar mechanic SBA is looking for. Not exactly the same nature, not exactly the same functions but similar mechanics

And no I’m not interested in semantic debates so if that’s going to be your angle in your following post as to why they’re not similar enough mechanically I’ll probably just ignore it

 

[azontr]

"Hey just in case you didn't know I'm gonna argue your argument" is crazy lmao

I don't really feel strongly on the topic I'm just sharing my opinion. I'd rather leave it up to consensus on whether or not the energy systems should be equalized, if they are I think Frieren probably wins.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

"Hey just in case you didn't know I'm gonna argue your argument" is crazy lmao

Not sure who you’re quoting bud, cuz I didn’t say allat. I know you have good reading comprehension.

I just meant nothing between two verses can be exactly the same. Hence why I decline from discussing hyper-specific details like “oh one is just negative emotions while one is emotions in general” and so on cuz that’s a waste of time.

 

[Dinamic8000]

Could Frieren use her superior range to snipe Kenjaku until he run out of spirits?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean sure, she has the range and AOE to wipe out large numbers.

 

[Nierre]

Not sure who you’re quoting bud, cuz I didn’t say allat. I know you have good reading comprehension.

I just meant nothing between two verses can be exactly the same. Hence why I decline from discussing hyper-specific details like “oh one is just negative emotions while one is emotions in general” and so on cuz that’s a waste of time.

preach. definitely one of my biggest pet peeves in vs matches lmao

 

[azontr]

one is just negative emotions while one is emotions in general”

Okay but Mana (Magic Power, Maryoku, whatever you feel appropriate to refer to it as) isn't emotion energy. It's never described as emotion energy in the story.

If you can't imagine yourself doing it, you won't be able to. This does not mean that Mana/Magic = Emotions, but rather it's just a mechanic that you need to be able to imagine yourself doing it to be able to do it.

If that doesn't make sense, I'll put it like this. Magic relies on emotions, but it is not emotions. Cursed Energy quite literally is emotions.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Alright then, I’ll leave that up for others to decide. And since you said frieren will win while equalized, then let’s just continue the debate on unequalized terms.

So what would Kenny’s wincon be.

 

[azontr]

Unequalized, I don't think Frieren has a win condition. Kenjaku has access to enough Cursed Spirits that with prior knowledge, he could just surround himself with Grade 2 to 1's and Frieren wouldn't be able to break through due to CS invulnerability.

Equalized, assuming Sorcery and Magic are considered equal, Kenjaku really doesn't have a win condition. Frieren is one of the greatest Mages of all time, able to analyze even the most powerful Curses that surpass Goddess Magic, which are literal Divine Techniques (not just "divine feats"). Anything Kenjaku does, Frieren will either analyze it then nullify it, or copy it some way or somehow.

It's a one-way stomp either way. Unequalized, Kenjaku easily wins. Equalized, Frieren easily wins.

 

[That_moron2]

Anything Kenjaku does, Frieren will either analyze it then nullify it, or copy it some way or somehow

Literally how?

 

[azontr]

Literally how?

I literally explained how in the sentence literally before the one you quoted.

 

[That_moron2]

I literally explained how in the sentence literally before the one you quoted.

Some way or somehow?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think Frieren is massively overblown here.

Reading her analysis feats, they all seem to be when she isn’t actively in the heat or combat, with the exception of one, but I don’t understand what she’s even analyzing here. Not only is it Kenjaku’s MO to simply dogpile you endlessly with curses, but he makes it explicitly clear CSM’s greatest strength is that he simply doesn’t have to let her find out which curse does what, not once, but twice. And as far as her analysis goes, nothing conceptual is there, which means she won’t be understand Ganesha literally targeting her concept. This woman is no Batman, nor Rimuru Tempest, and Kenjaku will not give her time to decipher them.

Important to note that Frieren isn’t against one man and his army in the hundreds, thousands, or even hundred thousands, she effectively stands against a man with ten million curses at his beck and call. Each with a separate ability, or simply just aiding to pure physical force. From what I see of her power-null, it affected a measly three people, nowhere enough to save her. This doesn’t even acknowledge the existence of Kenjaku’s gravity, as to which she lacks the lifting strength to overcome, much less a Domain, in where Kenjaku is amped to 120%, her stats are lowered, and he always hits.

Unequalized or not, the fighter with more force wins in a matter of jujutsu, and this is a fight Freiren can’t hope to win. Kenjaku in 7.

 

[azontr]

Reading her analysis feats, they all seem to be when she isn’t actively in the heat or combat, with the exception of one,

What exactly is your point here? Why would you try to say Frieren can't analyze Magic in the heat of combat, then proceed to acknowledge that she can literally analyze Magic in the heat of combat?

but I don’t understand what she’s even analyzing here

She analyzes the Magic and is then able to undo it.

Not only is it Kenjaku’s MO to simply dogpile you endlessly with curses, but he makes it explicitly clear CSM’s greatest strength is that he simply doesn’t have to let her find out which curse does what

The very same feat that you acknowledged is her performing analysis in the heat of combat involves her instantly deciphering the nature of a Spell as soon as she wakes up. She doesn't require time, she'll know immediately.

And as far as her analysis goes, nothing conceptual is there, which means she won’t be understand Ganesha literally targeting her concept

What exactly is Ganesha supposed to do to harm Frieren? Make her fall from a bit high up?

affected a measly three people, nowhere enough to save her.

She can revert the effects of a Curse on an entire city if she wants to. El Dorado is this big. It's the place surrounded by the barrier.

doesn’t even acknowledge the existence of Kenjaku’s gravity, as to which she lacks the lifting strength to overcome

Frieren never gets that close to an opponent. One of the main weaknesses of Mages in Frieren is that they can be killed before the use of Magic if a skilled Warrior attacks them from Close Range.

She would never in a million years get within the 2-3 meters required for Kenjaku to apply CT Reversal on her.

A lot of your post is just fluff that I don't feel the need to respond to, so I've responded to the core points. Cheers.

 

[Zabazab]

So true, Cursed Spirit invul probably makes this a stomp but otherwise Frieren slams fr

Another example of Kenjaku being carried by the goat Geto....

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

So true, Cursed Spirit invul probably makes this a stomp but otherwise Frieren slams fr

Another example of Kenjaku being carried by the goat Geto....

Geto had 6,461 Curses collected over a period of 10 years. Kenjaku got 10 million Curses in less than a year (how tf did he do that)

Also the real Kenjaku carrier is the convenient ass antigravity CT

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Geto had 6,461 Curses collected over a period of 10 years. Kenjaku got 10 million Curses in less than a year (how tf did he do that)

Also the real Kenjaku carrier is the convenient ass antigravity CT

Kenjaku literally uses CSM so much better than Geto that it's insane, literally discovering properties of it in less than a year that Geto never even found out in a decade.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What exactly is your point here? Why would you try to say Frieren can't analyze Magic in the heat of combat, then proceed to acknowledge that she can literally analyze Magic in the heat of combat?

The scans don’t even show what exactly she’s doing, it’s got one text bubble, not exactly easy to understand as a non-reader.

She analyzes the Magic and is then able to undo it.

Better.

The very same feat that you acknowledged is her performing analysis in the heat of combat involves her instantly deciphering the nature of a Spell as soon as she wakes up. She doesn't require time, she'll know immediately.

As soon as she wakes up? Why was she asleep?

What exactly is Ganesha supposed to do to harm Frieren? Make her fall from a bit high up?

If she can’t do anything about it, then, yes, over and over.

She can revert the effects of a Curse on an entire city if she wants to. El Dorado is this big. It's the place surrounded by the barrier.

Better.

Frieren never gets that close to an opponent. One of the main weaknesses of Mages in Frieren is that they can be killed before the use of Magic if a skilled Warrior attacks them from Close Range.

She would never in a million years get within the 2-3 meters required for Kenjaku to apply CT Reversal on her.

Kenjaku’s curses will just pursue her.

 

[azontr]

The scans don’t even show what exactly she’s doing, it’s got one text bubble, not exactly easy to understand as a non-reader.

The scans are admittedly unclear, so I'll break down the scenario.

A flower monster has the ability to reflect Magic. Frieren is asleep because of another one of the monsters abilities, a Curse that makes you fall asleep. The guy with the black cloak can dispel this curse for 5 seconds only, allowing Frieren to wake up.

He wakes Frieren up, and before he can even explain to her the monster's ability, and before the 5 seconds are up, she instinctively figures out that it can reflect Magic with its leaves and strikes past them to hit the core, which is its weak point.

The profile could be much better sourced so i dont put any blame on you for not having a full picture.

If she can’t do anything about it, then, yes, over and over.

I mean, I guess he could do that, but Kenjaku has never really used Ganesha in such a spammy manner before. I don't see why he would with Frieren.

Kenjaku’s curses will just pursue her.

Likely, but I was addressing his use of CT Reversal which requires him to get within a certain range to apply it to a target, not Cursed Spirit Manipulation.

 

[That_moron2]

Kenjaku fra

 

[azontr]

I don't know why you would vote. Kenjaku stomps since Frieren can't bypass his Cursed Spirit Manipulation.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Unequalized, Frieren has no way to get through Kenny's Cursed Spirits, equalized, it'd be more difficult, but Kenjaku through his versatility and ability to send out 10 million curses that can close in and once they get in, abuse the advantage of getting into CQC. Plus she has no defense against a Domain Expansion. If this isn't a stomp, Yuji's mom FRA.