1-A Megami Tensei question

[QuasiYuri]

So, while I initially didn't care about whatever happened with the verse, I'm currently playing Persona 4 and was curious to see what was supposed to make their verse 1-A.

After reading the upgrade thread about it, I found that the relevant statements were the following:

"On the contrary, the components of an ⟨ASURA⟩ body that has been broken down to the size of particles regain their original quantum nature and diffuse everywhere, in all dimensions, and across all possibilities. As a result, the self-consciousness also diffuses, and the unity of personality cannot be maintained. In very simple terms, the personality and the body will disappear, at least from this material world."

"In Sera’s case, she was blocked by the shell, and the blast was contained within the EGG. But as for me, I continued to expand further and farther than her, expanding beyond the boundaries of this dimension. For a quantum-based being, just the normal 3 dimensions were far too small, and nothing more than the lowest, most basic tier dimensions. Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of “dimension” and into an unknown space. I didn’t fully understand it myself—or rather, it’s just that I lacked the words to explain it."

"It was just like how Sera could only describe her communication with god using rough, imprecise language. I, having had existence itself converge within my three dimensional, physical body, could only use words and concepts from the 3-dimensional world. Anymore than that would be go beyond the abilities of my hardware—this physical world, bound by the laws of physics."

"You can see them, can't you? You can see your friends. Not only that, but you can also see everything that is happening in the world. There is nothing that you cannot see and feel. Your flesh has regained its original quantum attributes by being stripped down to the smallest unit, below the molecule. You are everywhere, at all times, and observe all possible worlds simultaneously. However, the macroscopic laws of the material world do not allow for such an existence, and so you continue to exist only in this imaginary space, merely as an observer of all things."

With the most important being the second one, especially this part: "Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of “dimension” and into an unknown space".


Having a single "possibly went beyond the concept of dimension" is already weird, given how we have a part of the Q&A especially saying that these kind of statements only make you scale above your own cosmology, but I also saw that the justification validating the use of this single statement is supposed to be that:

"Throughout the series of novels, the location itself is often referred to as a higher dimension, and Serph himself only states that it exists beyond the concept of dimensions altogether as a possibility, but it should be noted that the later is justified in the very next page, where it is stated that all of the trivialities of the physical world were starting to catch up to his mind, which means that he was rapidly forgetting about his experience in the sea of nothingness."

As such, my question is: why would you take the vague statement he is the most unsure of, after proving that he was unreliable at the time, and despite others never backing it up and all only comparing it in comparison to the 3-dimensional world as the absolute right one that changes the entire view of the cosmology?

(There's also the fact that nothing indicates that "concept of dimension" means only 1-A here either, making this pretty arbitrary, although this part is a bit unrelated to the series itself)

I know the wiki is especially lenient whenever the word "concept" or "story/fiction/etc..." appears, but I really start feeling that for each 10 verses we put (higher than they already are) into tier 1, barely 2/3 of them actually deserve it.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Yuri asking a question about verse that is 1-A.

 

[Darksmash]

I find it vague too tbh
"Concept of dimension" is a bit too vague. We don't know how many dimensions the conceptualisation of dimensions in the verse guarantees. However, I personally don't know much about the verse so I don't know if there is additional context to validate the concept of dimension encompassing any arbitrary number of dimensions.

 

[Teezar]

Yuri appears and Megami tensei begins to cower in fear.

 

[Naito-desu]

I know nothing about Persona nor do I want to take a side but you are aware of Agnaa's CRT thread regarding this?

 

[Teezar]

I know nothing about Persona nor do I want to take a side but you are aware of Agnaa's CRT thread regarding this?

His is regarding canonicity.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I know nothing about Persona nor do I want to take a side but you are aware of Agnaa's CRT thread regarding this?

Agnaa was just questioning the canonicity, iirc.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I know nothing about Persona nor do I want to take a side but you are aware of Agnaa's CRT thread regarding this?

His was about canon, although it did make me want to check in addition to my current P4G experience.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

When you put out a fire, yet another one begins. Responding soon.

 

[azontr]

Was just about say "Call Milly Here", but Milly called himself here lol.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's just a Q&A thread so it's not like it would cause problem though.

Just asking stuff.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No problem, but my pessimism tells me this thread will go for a couple weeks.

 

[Loyd]

Is there any game that represents or explicitly makes you understand its operating in the 1-A tier?

I've just started smt 5 recently and knowing nothing of the series or prior context of the prequels except persona 4/5( if that counts) nothing to mindblowing yet throwing tiers aside its actually giving me early bleach vibes.

 

[azontr]

Is there any game that represents or explicitly makes you understand its operating in the 1-A tier?

I've just started smt 5 recently and knowing nothing of the series or prior context of the prequels except persona 4/5( if that counts) nothing to mindblowing yet throwing tiers aside its actually giving me early bleach vibes.

What series makes it explicitly known that your playing on that tier? I'd sort of make it blatant the author is involved in powerscaling lol.

 

[Loyd]

Yea it was more rhetorical then anything i don't think playing a single entry would help/elude to 1-A i was under the impression persona was more mainstream while the early smt had the wacky scaling.

Although a game trying to demonstrate a tier that was operating at 1-A would be interesting.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

As such, my question is: why would you take the vague statement he is the most unsure of, after proving that he was unreliable at the time, and despite others never backing it up and all only comparing it in comparison to the 3-dimensional world as the absolute right one that changes the entire view of the cosmology?

Because the realm itself existing beyond dimensionality was already alluded to beforehand. For instance, earlier into the novel, when the narration is recounting Serph's experiences as he is floating directly inside of that realm, he describes it as a place where directions like "Up" and "Down" are absent, so, that already lends credence to the statement:

A cat... a black cat with silvery eyes sat with its tail wrapped around its matching limbs. Its mouth didn't move, yet it was certainly talking. In this <Place> where there is no up, down, heaven, and earth, the cat's ears twitched calmly and its silvery eyes blinked unhesitantly.

And in Devil Survivor 2, we are explicitly informed that realms of information (In the case of this game, the Akasha Stratum, where the information that makes up the world through the Akashic Records exists and can be manipulated) are not necessarily bound by the concept of "coordinates" at all:

Having a single "possibly went beyond the concept of dimension" is already weird, given how we have a part of the Q&A especially saying that these kind of statements only make you scale above your own cosmology

The statement is viable for 1-A because, contextually, it's essentially Serph stating that he expanded beyond the regular 3 dimensions of the universe and into an even larger space, and then pondering about the possibility that he went even higher, and surpassed the concept of dimensions altogether, which indicates that the latter state is meant as something fundamentally above simply being higher-dimensional. I give more explanations below, so, keep scrolling I guess.

I find it vague too tbh
"Concept of dimension" is a bit too vague. We don't know how many dimensions the conceptualisation of dimensions in the verse guarantees. However, I personally don't know much about the verse so I don't know if there is additional context to validate the concept of dimension encompassing any arbitrary number of dimensions.

That's a bit too nitpicky for my taste. Much like the natural numbers, the number of dimensions which a space can have is inductive, since it is determined by how many times the cartesian product operation is iterated (So, for instance, the existence of the real line, a 1-dimensional space, necessarily implies the existence of 2-dimensional space, since you can multiply R by itself to construct R^2), so, to say that the number of dimensions that are possible in a verse has some finite limit is the same as denying that any sufficiently large numbers exist past some arbitrary point.

Of course, speaking in logical terms, the actual lowball for "Fundamentally beyond the concept of higher dimensions" is High 1-A, not 1-A, but that's a topic which tackles far more things than Megami Tensei alone, and that ought to be tackled in a separate discussion (At least as I intend to do it, anyway)

 

[Darksmash]

That's a bit too nitpicky for my taste. Much like the natural numbers, the number of dimensions which a space can have is inductive, since it is determined by how many times the cartesian product operation is iterated (So, for instance, the existence of the real line, a 1-dimensional space, necessarily implies the existence of 2-dimensional space, since you can multiply R by itself to construct R^2), so, to say that the number of dimensions that are possible in a verse has some finite limit is the same as denying that any sufficiently large numbers exist past some arbitrary point.

I mean technically speaking actual dimensions also don't act like transcendent planes of existence. Plus we don't know what the author's mindset about these things is.

Also directions or coordinates not existing in 1-A space being used as a justification is weird because in context of the tiering system 1-A spaces are inherently bigger than any non 1-A spaces and can contain them as subsets, so if anything dimensioned spaces and associated properties can always be applied to subsets of such spaces and by extension should be able to exist in them.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I mean technically speaking actual dimensions also don't act like transcendent planes of existence

"Higher plane of existence" is vague enough as a term that you can associate it with pretty much anything. If the higher plane in this case is a physical setting, then interpreting it as a higher-dimensional space is a valid enough view, as is anything else, so, I don't think "They don't act like higher planes" addresses much of my points.

Plus we don't know what the author's mindset about these things is.

In lieu of actual word from the author or the ability to infer that, we tend to assume things function just like in reality, since defaulting to something is obviously preferable to placing things in a limbo because of unverifiable matters such as "But what if X wasn't a thing?". Especially so in this case, where the novel does treat higher dimensions as correspondent to other positions and directions in space:

"In addition, there is a channel to a higher dimension in the body, in a position whose coordinates cannot be presented in this material third dimension."

"What is this?"

"It is the pathway that supplies your drive energy," Angel answered. "It may have other functions, but I don't know about them. The only people directly involved in its development were military technicians."

"I do know, however, that at the end of that channel there is an ocean of dark energy that connects through the higher dimensions. It is an ocean of energy that accounts for half of the heat in the universe. It is from there that you receive your energy and operate. Acting in the Atmanic State."

"This is a huge amount of power, but it's small compared to the total amount of dark energy."

Also directions or coordinates not existing in 1-A space being used as a justification is weird because in context of the tiering system 1-A spaces are inherently bigger than any non 1-A spaces and can contain them as subsets, so if anything dimensioned spaces and associated properties can always be applied to subsets of such spaces and by extension should be able to exist in them.

I am well aware of that, yes. I used it as evidence because the point of contention is how reliable Serph's statement is, and that statement itself presents us with two options: A) It is a higher-dimensional space, and B) It is something beyond the concept of dimensions entirely. What I showed points in the direction of the latter. I never intended to argue that a space lacking coordinates automatically equals 1-A or whatever.

 

[Darksmash]

I am well aware of that, yes. I used it as evidence because the point of contention is how reliable Serph's statement is, and that statement itself presents us with two options: A) It is a higher-dimensional space, and B) It is something beyond the concept of dimensions entirely. What I showed points in the direction of the latter. I never intended to argue that a space lacking coordinates automatically equals 1-A or whatever.

Oh that's understandable then. Since the OP's main argument (I believe) was about the ambiguity of the statement.

 

[Urshani]

Of course, speaking in logical terms, the actual lowball for "Fundamentally beyond the concept of higher dimensions" is High 1-A, not 1-A, but that's a topic which tackles far more things than Megami Tensei alone, and that ought to be tackled in a separate discussion (At least as I intend to do it, anyway)

HIGH 1-A SMT???

 

[LoliNeverforlife]

HIGH 1-A SMT???

Tier 0

 

[Darksmash]

I hope it doesn't go that route, because if we treat the concept of dimensions literally we should probably do the same with other concepts(such as space, time or existence), which will lead to lots of issues

 

[Ultima_Reality]

There's a lot more factors to it, yeah, so, I expect you all to hold your horses on that subject.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Because the realm itself existing beyond dimensionality was already alluded to beforehand. For instance, earlier into the novel, when the narration is recounting Serph's experiences as he is floating directly inside of that realm, he describes it as a place where directions like "Up" and "Down" are absent, so, that already lends credence to the statement:

This is a pretty common statement for even 4D realms tho. First coming to mind being this Madoka Magica one.
Wouldn't really call it a proof of 1-A.

And in Devil Survivor 2, we are explicitly informed that realms of information (In the case of this game, the Akasha Stratum, where the information that makes up the world through the Akashic Records exists and can be manipulated) are not necessarily bound by the concept of "coordinates" at all:

It talks about a "linear" concept of coordinates though? If it was supposed to include higher dimensions and stuff, using the term linear wouldn't make much sense.
Also see Madoka statement for this.

The statement is viable for 1-A because, contextually, it's essentially Serph stating that he expanded beyond the regular 3 dimensions of the universe and into an even larger space, and then pondering about the possibility that he went even higher, and surpassed the concept of dimensions altogether, which indicates that the latter state is meant as something fundamentally above simply being higher-dimensional. I give more explanations below, so, keep scrolling I guess.

Thing is, he's only supposing it and it basically is the most unreliable statement among all the others. Even a "possibly 1-A" would logically be hard to obtain, yet here it is a straight 1-A.
Also the fact that it is separated from higher-dimensional isn't proof of surpassing all extensions, something which isn't mentionned.

A similar case to this one would be Tenchi Muyo's Choushins.
Their realm, the Top Dimension / Chô Jigen is above the Kô Jigen / Higher Dimensions and separated because of its nature/origin; yet it is still a higher dimension in the end, just one beyond any of the multiverse's one.

The scans used in the upgrade are pretty much the same case, and the OP even precised that this realm was called higher dimensional in all the others instances, making it no different from the other case.

So it would fall under the Q&A explanation of why it isn't 1-A.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It talks about a "linear" concept of coordinates though? If it was supposed to include higher dimensions and stuff, using the term linear wouldn't make much sense.
Also see Madoka statement for this.

The Japanese says, blatantly, concept of coordinates. Nothing linear.

ま、そりゃそうか。
アーカーシャ層に『座標』なんて概念、そもそもないだろうし。

Well, there you have it.
There's no such concept of 'coordinates' in the Akasha Layer.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The Japanese says, blatantly, concept of coordinates. Nothing linear.

ま、そりゃそうか。
アーカーシャ層に『座標』なんて概念、そもそもないだろうし。

Well, there you have it.
There's no such concept of 'coordinates' in the Akasha Layer.

Good to know.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Good to know.

No problem. I hope you enjoy P4G, I’ll let Ultima handle this unless it’s something I can counter on hand.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The Japanese says, blatantly, concept of coordinates. Nothing linear.

ま、そりゃそうか。
アーカーシャ層に『座標』なんて概念、そもそもないだろうし。

Well, there you have it.
There's no such concept of 'coordinates' in the Akasha Layer.

Forgot to mention, Alcor describes the Akasha Stratum as outside the world, giving further credence to the former statement.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This is a pretty common statement for even 4D realms tho. First coming to mind being this Madoka Magica one.
Wouldn't really call it a proof of 1-A.

See above. I already said I never intended it to be automatic proof of 1-A so much as just something that lends credency to the statement and places doubt on the place being just a higher-dimensional realm.

It talks about a "linear" concept of coordinates though? If it was supposed to include higher dimensions and stuff, using the term linear wouldn't make much sense.

I don't see why not, given the context of the statement is that the human concept of coordinates as a whole is deemed "linear" by the entities of the Akasha Stratum, and thus something they don't abide by at all. The term is not something that disqualifies higher dimensions from being included on its own. (Although I suppose Milly already dealt with this, anyway)

Also see Madoka statement for this.

See my responses above.

Thing is, he's only supposing it and it basically is the most unreliable statement among all the others

Which is why I provided more evidence showing that the realm being a higher-dimensional space as initially presented can be cast into doubt, one of which came from a passage that was describing his experiences when residing directly in that place, as said before.

Also the fact that it is separated from higher-dimensional isn't proof of surpassing all extensions, something which isn't mentionned.

A similar case to this one would be Tenchi Muyo's Choushins.
Their realm, the Top Dimension / Chô Jigen is above the Kô Jigen / Higher Dimensions and separated because of its nature/origin; yet it is still a higher dimension in the end, just one beyond any of the multiverse's one.

I believe the issue with these terms is that "Cho Jigen" just means "hyper-dimensional" or "topmost dimension," the latter of which in particular obviously indicates that it's just the highest of a set of dimensions, rather than something that exceeds the set altogether. This is not the case here, since "beyond the concept of dimensions" cannot be interpreted as an additional higher-dimensional realm in any manner, so, that's a pretty flawed comparision.

The scans used in the upgrade are pretty much the same case, and the OP even precised that this realm was called higher dimensional in all the others instances, making it no different from the other case.

In the overwhelming majority of those cases, it was referred as a higher dimension by people who never had any direct experience with the realm. Serph, meanwhile, made the statement right after returning from it, and the statements he makes while directly abiding in that state place more validity into it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Which is why I provided more evidence showing that the realm being a higher-dimensional space as initially presented can be cast into doubt, one of which came from a passage that was describing his experiences when residing directly in that place, as said before.

Except the proof can be used for any higher D too, meaning it doesn't really make it a decisive proof.

I believe the issue with these terms is that "Cho Jigen" just means "hyper-dimensional" or "topmost dimension," the latter of which in particular obviously indicates that it's just the highest of a set of dimensions, rather than something that exceeds the set altogether. This is not the case here, since "beyond the concept of dimensions" cannot be interpreted as an additional higher-dimensional realm in any manner, so, that's a pretty flawed comparision.

It doesn't truly mean Top Dimension (it's more a Tenchi Muyo-dub/eng trad thing, since it carries the same idea), but otherwise it can carry an idea of dimensionality yeah.
However as shown again in our very Q&A, we don't assume that stuff like "beyond dimensions" and coe are 1-A, making the second point not working.

In the overwhelming majority of those cases, it was referred as a higher dimension by people who never had any direct experience with the realm. Serph, meanwhile, made the statement right after returning from it, and the statements he makes while directly abiding in that state place more validity into it.

For the statements besides the "maybe" one, see above.

I really can't see how this could be taken as a straight 1-A.

Also is there really nobody who reached that place besides Serph in the entire series?

 

[QuasiYuri]

No problem. I hope you enjoy P4G, I’ll let Ultima handle this unless it’s something I can counter on hand.

Thanks. Likely will be one of my favorite game.

 

[Loyd]

If you're still interested after completing the game, the Persona 4 animation was a fun watch and Yu is an absolute chad.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If you're still interested after completing the game, the Persona 4 animation was a fun watch and Yu is an absolute chad.

Isn't it just an adaptation ?
Most of the fun in Persona 4 isn't really story related rn but I'll give it a try.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Except the proof can be used for any higher D too, meaning it doesn't really make it a decisive proof.

If something lacks directions and the concept of coordinates entirely, then by definition, it is not higher-dimensional. Don't misinterpret me, though, since, as you already know, I am not using that as the main body of the argument.

It doesn't truly mean Top Dimension (it's more a Tenchi Muyo-dub/eng trad thing, since it carries the same idea), but otherwise it can carry an idea of dimensionality yeah.

If so, then that's a flawed comparision as said above, since "Cho Jigen" in your counterexample would still be referring to an object in the same category as "Ko Jigen" (A higher-dimensional space, but of a higher degree), which as you can tell, is not the case here. Using slightly different terms (That nonetheless describe the same attribute) for the same thing is not the same as referring to an object as two completely different things in separate occasions.

However as shown again in our very Q&A, we don't assume that stuff like "beyond dimensions" and coe are 1-A, making the second point not working.

Only if it's simply a realm above the dimensions established in the setting with no further context as to the extent of that transcendence. I already outlined why it is viable for 1-A in my responses both to you and to Darksmash, and as far as I am aware, your only counter to that is an example that I already explained is inadequate as a reference point.

Also is there really nobody who reached that place besides Serph in the entire series?

Nobody who is present in the novel, no, since the fundamental nature of God and the world at large is supposed to be a mystery to everyone involved up until the very end. The only one who has knowledge of the realm, as far as I'm aware, is Sera, and even she is specified to not truly comprehend it beyond some vague, purely intuitive understanding, since she has been separated from God for years as of the novels' events.

 

[Loyd]

Most of the fun in Persona 4 isn't really story related rn but I'll give it a try.

the animation is like a wacky parody of the series, more comical with random high school life but i know what you mean i played pokemon sword recently and kinda got into the collect them all moods. smt5 and the demon/gods.

 

[Metallica_Kane]

Btw, the fact that Serph has transcended the concept of dimensions is kinda supported by the fact that he also transcended time (which is bound by the concept of dimensions as well) and gone outside causality. As Ultima said, directions also lacks meaning at this point, further supporting the transcendence imo

 

[Teezar]

Btw, the fact that Serph has transcended the concept of dimensions is kinda supported by the fact that he also transcended time (which is bound by the concept of dimensions as well) and gone outside causality. As Ultima said, directions also lacks meaning at this point, further supporting the transcendence imo

Though I wanted to just spectate but this are not enough of a support, transcending time needs more context to it as even teirs less than 1A have been stated as such. Going outside of causality doesn't grant 1A at all or s supporting evidence for it.

Now I will keep on spectating.

 

[Metallica_Kane]

Though I wanted to just spectate but this are not enough of a support, transcending time needs more context to it as even teirs less than 1A have been stated as such. Going outside of causality doesn't grant 1A at all or s supporting evidence for it.

Now I will keep on spectating.

Transcending time doesn't give any 1-A rating nor being outside causality does, indeed.
Time is a "dimension". It's only natural to use this as support as well since the concept of dimension is transcended. In Serph's case, going outside of causality is most likely a consequence of it. It is no actual evidence, but clue.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

When you put out a fire, yet another one begins. Responding soon.

Vsbw in a nutshell unironically.
You will never find peace.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Mine is we should treat all verses the same way, it should be a one size fits all not that we treat a verse this way and another verse another way.