1-A JTTW & Abilities CRT

[Greatsage13th]

Apophatic theology is a completely unrelated thing that has no connection to hierarchies.

Explain.

 

[Darksmash]

Explain.

No.

 

[Greatsage13th]

No.

Irrelevant. Guess there are no more counterarguments then.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that we will have to wait for Ultima then.

Can somebody write down all that he needs to evaluate in a single post here please, so I can call for him afterwards?

Also, can somebody remind me which tiers that you wish to apply here as well?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think Ant is intentionally being rude or malicious, just a misunderstanding on his side and i know him long enough to say so, since to be fair this upgrade is a huge one, up to 1-A, then Elizhaa proposed High 1-A due to Apophatic Theology. Ant always has been being conservative when it come to a huge upgrade like this, and while i agree that comment from him is an unneccessary one, don't be hard on him....

Yes, beyond what I stated earlier, I am subscribing to the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" school of thought. Meaning, the higher tiers that are suggested to be applied, the more scrutiny we need to place on properly critically evaluating the supposed evidence involved.

Also, I am in an irritable mood due to my Cortisol levels building up from not having sufficient amounts of free time for exercise lately and going on a diet in combination.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, I am in an irritable mood due to my Cortisol levels building up from not having sufficient amounts of free time for exercise lately and going on a diet in combination.

rest bro, you need it, and it is not like this thread gone anywhere, people still debating

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, but I need exercise to get rid of the Cortisol, not rest.

 

[Darksmash]

Irrelevant. Guess there are no more counterarguments then.

???

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

He made a short post on the thread which you can go and read but ok

On the previous CRT, it's already been discussed and agreed upon that using Buddhism RELIGION as the foundation of any upgrades is absolutely not allowed no matter what. The whole reason Sun Wukong's Profile did not get deleted is that we adhered to that rule and even though they used similar and basically copy and pasted text, it was still present in the novel's own context.

Ultima is attempting to compare what is said in the novel to what is stated outside the novel as the entire basis of a downgrade/redo of cosmology. I think that is unacceptable considering how "Harsh" staff have been with wanting to separate the religious aspect of JTTW and everything else.

He interpreted the novel's text to conclude that a single person contains all of existence within themselves and pointed out the paradox in that. He brought up other examples as well(such as a mustard seed containing the Sumeru) and talked about how it relates to the principle of all things being interconnected.

But fine, if you two are going to argue using real Buddhism concepts then I will counter-argue using real Buddhism concepts then let's do some comparisons. This is using the Flower Sutra which focuses on Mahayana Buddhism specifically, the exact same type of Buddhism most prevalent in JTTW.

---

First Comparison;

Buddha's whole realm is in a grain of sand. - Journey to the West Volume 1, Page 306, Chapter 14

They enjoy in peace the Pure Land's Jetavana, The Dragon Palace, and worlds vast as Ganges' sands. - Journey to the West Volume 1, Page 203, Chapter 8

---

The atoms to which these buddha-lands are reduced in an instant
are unspeakable,
And so are the atoms of continuous reduction moment to
moment
Going on for untold eons;
These atoms contain lands unspeakably many.
And the atoms in these lands are even harder to tell of.
Counting this way for unspeakable eons,
Using unspeakable numbers,
Counting eons by these atoms. - Flower Ornament Scripture Page 892

The Buddha appears everywhere,
In infinite lands in each atom,
The realms therein being all infinite too; - Flower Ornament Scripture Page 133

Mahayana Buddhism is not metaphorical, Buddha-Lands hold Infinite Worlds within them very clearly, moving on to the Second Comparison;

A feather swallows the great ocean? A mustard seed holds the Sumeru? - Journey to the West Volume 1, Page 201, Chapter 8

---

Third, the difference in inconceivable spiritual powers: according to
the Vimalakirti Scripture's explanation of the spiritual powers of enlight-
ening beings, they can fit a huge mountain into a mustard seed - Flower Ornament Scripture, Introduction

Third Comparison;

The dharmakiiya Has no shape or form: One pearl-like radiance holding myriad things. - Journey to the West Volume 1, Page 306, Chapter 14

Such are these various Buddhas in all the worlds. - Journey to the West Volume 4, Page 385, Chapter 100

---

they see all things as one form which is
formless, and yet do not destroy the identities of things — they abide in
real Thusness, never leaving it. - Flower Ornament Scripture Page 820

Myriad things are like this — far and near, high and low,
broad and narrow, coarse and fine, even down to the tiniest grain of sand
and mote of dust, all being beautiful jewels, clearly mirroring lights, all
reflected in the orb of the sun, and all reflecting and rereflecting each
other; these reflections, neither increasing nor decreasing, neither merged
nor separated, are clearly visible as though they were the original sub-
stance itself. - Flower Ornament Scripture Page 841

In every world are immense numbers
of Buddhas who each attract ten great enlightening beings, one from
each of the ten directions, who in turn are each accompanied by countless
enlightening beings. - Flower Ornament Scripture, Introduction

---

So as you can see, in Mahayana and JTTW these statements are quite literal and honestly pretty clear. And it's not a "Coincidence" or misinterpretation when JTTW the novel itself states the Mahayana is responsible for the cosmos imbue.

Edit; Oh and yes, the Flower Ornament Scripture (The Avatamsaka) is mentioned in JTTW as one of the scriptures that affected Worlds Beyond Measure so the Author knew about it's existence.

 

[ShivaShakti]

So I have been reading and cross referencing translations of Journey To The West. I have also observed some excerpts from The Avatamsaka Sutra itself.

The Avatamsaka Sutra, while it expresses metaphor, still presents "The Net of Indra" and The Buddha realms as literal planes of existence, with the recursive worlds of the Buddha-Lands even being stated to be distinct from eachother.

Currently I believe the hierarchy of recursions is likely legitimate, however there is some misinformation and other feats we have not acknowledged.

"The Great Way" indeed refers to The Dao, and not The Mahayana. In actuality, Subhoti insinuates that The Dao or The Great Way is truthfully inferior to The Dharma and encompassed by it. As well as the fact that within the Jenner translation and others, "The Great Way" is translated separately from "The Mahayana".

The conflation of The Great Way and The Mahayana has culminated in the attribution of certain powers and abilities that likely shouldn't be present (Such as Wukong's Soul Banishing), so that is something which will need to be addressed eventually.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

"The Great Way" indeed refers to The Dao, and not The Mahayana. In actuality, Subhoti insinuates that The Dao or The Great Way is truthfully inferior to The Dharma and encompassed by it. As well as the fact that within the Jenner translation and others, "The Great Way" is translated separately from "The Mahayana".

From what I can tell there are two Great Ways mentioned in JTTW, one is the Dao, and the other is the Mahayana. You can see it in the way they are mentioned.

Buddhist Monks utilize the Great Way (The Mahayana) to transcend the world.

Sometimes it is used to refer to the Dao, it seems to switch depending on the context.

 

[Jasonsith]

Oh I just woke up.

Keep it short:
I will begin my project (re-reading the original JTTW novel, in web or even in book, in Chinese text, and make notes relevant for "VS battles" in general) in some time.
This project will be a slow one and will not be prioritising over my other duties, esp. my day job.
So do continue your CRT or lack of as usual. This will be a big project (and more like my leisure project) and will likely not affect the current JTTW verse until I deem so.

 

[Darksmash]

Ultima is attempting to compare what is said in the novel to what is stated outside the novel as the entire basis of a downgrade/redo of cosmology. I think that is unacceptable considering how "Harsh" staff have been with wanting to separate the religious aspect of JTTW and everything else.

No he isn't holy shit. He is simply using the novel text for his argument and linking it to an actual Buddhist concept just shows that it isn't intellectually dishonest. Even the translator's notes agree with that.

Mahayana Buddhism is not metaphorical, Buddha-Lands hold Infinite Worlds within them very clearly, moving on to the Second Comparison;

These descriptions seem fundamentally incompatible considering JTTW seems to treat a mustard seed containing the Sumeru as a fundamental truth that can only be seen in a state of enlightenment, while the Mahayana seem to treat it as a showcase of power of spiritual beings.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No he isn't holy shit. He is simply using the novel text for his argument and linking it to an actual Buddhist concept just shows that it isn't intellectually dishonest. Even the translator's notes agree with that.

It does not matter what the actual Buddhist Concepts say. Unless he finds something in the novel to prove his point then all he has is speculation and guessing. Nothing he's stated proves anything in JTTW is metaphorical when they admit and acknowledge these multiple worlds exist. And I can't belive you are still clinging to that paradox translartor statement when it's already been debunked.

These descriptions seem fundamentally incompatible considering JTTW seems to treat a mustard seed containing the Sumeru as a fundamental truth that can only be seen in a state of enlightenment, while the Mahayana seem to treat it as a showcase of power of spiritual beings.

You are being ridiculous and wrong, especially when the Translator explains that it is from the Mahayana Buddhism Cosmology.

 

[Darksmash]

It does not matter what the actual Buddhist Concepts say. Unless he finds something in the novel to prove his point then all he has is speculation and guessing. Nothing he's stated proves anything in JTTW is metaphorical when they admit and acknowledge these multiple worlds exist. And I can't belive you are still clinging to that paradox translartor statement when it's already been debunked.

The main point was from the novel itself as I said. Other things were supplementary.

You are being ridiculous and wrong, especially when the Translator explains that it is from the Mahayana Buddhism Cosmology.

That doesn't address what I said. Mahayana interpretation seems fundamentally incompatible with the text's intent.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The main point was from the novel itself as I said. Other things were supplementary.

Nothing Ultima has said proves anything so please explain what you are talking about.

That doesn't address what I said. Mahayana interpretation seems fundamentally incompatible with the text's intent.

Incompatible in what way? Do you mean it conflicts with what you two "Want" it's interpretations to mean?

 

[Darksmash]

Nothing Ultima has said proves anything so please explain what you are talking about.

He pointed out how the text says that a single person somehow contains all of existence within them and the paradox it causes along with other examples such as a mustard seed somehow containing THE Sumeru mountain (and not just a smaller variation of it).

Incompatible in what way? Do you mean it conflicts with what you two "Want" it's interpretations to mean?

Good sir JTTW text says that a mustard seed contains the Sumeru and you need to be enlightened to see these truths while the Mahayana text says that enlightened beings can fit a mountain in a mustard seed as a showcase of power. I am sure you can see the difference here.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

He pointed out how the text says that a single person somehow contains all of existence within them and the paradox it causes along with other examples such as a mustard seed somehow containing THE Sumeru mountain (and not just a smaller variation of it).

Are you seriously confused why the Dharmakaya, the unity of Infinite Buddhas, a formless, nondual body beyond even transdual and acausal entities is stated to contain all of existence within them?

Why the hell would that be some kind of Anti-Feat?

Good sir JTTW text says that a mustard seed contains the Sumeru and you need to be enlightened to see these truths while the Mahayana text says that enlightened beings can fit a mountain in a mustard seed as a showcase of power. I am sure you can see the difference here.

They are both talking about enlightened beings...

A feather swallows the great ocean? A mustard seed holds the Sumeru? Golden Dhuta is gently smiling. The enlightened transcends the ten stops and three wains.

Not only that but Golden Dhuta is as the Translator Notes described

One of Sakyamuni's principal disciples who was also chief of the ascetics before the enlightenment, with another and more familiar name of Mahakasyapa.

Mahakasyapa is also known as Buddha's disciple who is enlightened. So no they correlate perfectly, isn't that crazy?

 

[Mariogoods]

I feel that a long-term project concerning Journey to the West as Jasonsith suggested may be the best solution.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I feel that a long-term project concerning Journey to the West as Jasonsith suggested may be the best solution.

Personally, I would rather not wait for what Jasonith is doing. He has no idea when or if it will ever be done, and it's a personal project that won't apply to anything unless he deems it so and makes a separate CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should preferably wait for Ultima at least.

Has anybody written a post with all of the relevant evidence for him to evaluate already?

 

[Greatsage13th]

I feel that a long-term project concerning Journey to the West as Jasonsith suggested may be the best solution.

This should be separate

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well, we should preferably wait for Ultima at least.

Has anybody written a post with all of the relevant evidence for him to evaluate already?

I'm still questioning if what Ultima is attempting to do is against the rules or not. As I said before he is using real-life Buddhism and its sources to debunk a novel. No matter how you argue it, relating the novel to real-life religious concepts is not allowed.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm still questioning if what Ultima is attempting to do is against the rules or not. As I said before he is using real-life Buddhism and its sources to debunk a novel. No matter how you argue it, relating the novel to real-life religious concepts is not allowed.

That is a good point. He should preferably stick to only evaluating what was said in the novel itself.

However, I do not know if your interpretation of what he did is accurate or not.

 

[Greatsage13th]

That is a good point. He should preferably stick to only evaluating what was said in the novel itself.

However, I do not know if your interpretation of what he did is accurate or not.

I mean, he did something similar to that. I could tell as I have done something similar awhile back.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Darksmash]

Are you seriously confused why the Dharmakaya, the unity of Infinite Buddhas, a formless, nondual body beyond even transdual and acausal entities is stated to contain all of existence within them?

First that's not my argument, second proof that the text was talking about this Dharmakaya or whatever? All it said is that in a single body and mind all dharmas are the same.

They are both talking about enlightened beings...

You didn't catch my point. One is stating that Mustard seeds being able to contain a mountain is a fundamental truth, other is saying that enlightened beings can compress (supposedly) mountains in a seed a show of power.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

First that's not my argument, second proof that the text was talking about this Dharmakaya or whatever? All it said is that in a single body and mind all dharmas are the same

You just do not listen. Firstly the translation Ultima used as a "Cross Reference" is less accurate than the one we currently use and it takes precedence over it with that one only being used for secondary evidence at best.

Accurate Translation

Yours is the dharmakāya of True Mind.
The dharmakāya
Has no shape or form:
One pearl-like radiance holding myriad things.

You didn't catch my point. One is stating that Mustard seeds being able to contain a mountain is a fundamental truth, other is saying that enlightened beings can compress (supposedly) mountains in a seed a show of power.

I should not have to explain to you that although not perfectly, both are clearly derivative of one another, or else they wouldn't use the mustard seed as an example. The Translator confirms it's from the Mahayana and you have no proof of it being otherwise so please drop this argument.

 

[Darksmash]

You just do not listen. Firstly the translation Ultima used as a "Cross Reference" is less accurate than the one we currently use and it takes precedence over it with that one only being used for secondary evidence at best.

Ultima used 2 translations and the text you posted has 0 connection to the text Ultima posted. Besides I am not sure on what basis you claim one translation is better than another.

I should not have to explain to you that although not perfectly, both are clearly derivative of one another, or else they wouldn't use the mustard seed as an example. The Translator confirms it's from the Mahayana and you have no proof of it being otherwise so please drop this argument.

Brother in Christ both are completely and utterly different. If you insinuate that these 2 are related then you can use this to argue that the so called "hierarchies" are simply feats of space compression on various degrees since the Mahayana text you posted talks about compressing mountains into mustard seeds instead of the latter containing the former by default.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ultima used 2 translations and the text you posted has 0 connection to the text Ultima posted. Besides I am not sure on what basis you claim one translation is better than another.

Ok that's it I'm done. I've already explained myself enough, I'll be busy getting more staff input and if Ultima wants to continue his arguments he's free to. I'm not going to do this back and forth with someone who is deadset on ignoring what I say.

 

[Darksmash]

Ok that's it I'm done. I've already explained myself enough, I'll be busy getting more staff input and if Ultima wants to continue his arguments he's free to. I'm not going to do this back and forth with someone who is deadset on ignoring what I say.

That's your perspective though. From my perspective you have literally failed to even understand what I have been saying for the past few days(?). I doubt you even tried to understand, as all your so called "debunks" were completely unrelated to what I said 90% of the time. But meh

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That's your perspective though. From my perspective you have literally failed to even understand what I have been saying for the past few days(?). I doubt you even tried to understand, as all your so called "debunks" were completely unrelated to what I said 90% of the time. But meh

Are you talking about this?

A grain of sand the chiliocosm holds;
One mind or body's like ten thousand things.
To know this you must grasp the No-mind Spell;

Did you read my Cosmology page? Because if you did this would make a lot more sense.

What it's saying is simple, the True Nature of reality is Nondual and a Singularity, it is Buddha-Nature, and as such Buddha-Nature is in all things and Buddha-Nature is 'Thing'. This would of course include the body and mind. It's explaining how one reaches Nirvana and by extension the Dharmakaya.

It's by realizing all forms are one, this is explained through the novel showing recursions of nonexistence, information of existence and nonexistence, forms within emptiness, formlessness within form, touch, mind, and body, etc are all one. This is mentioned in the No-Mind Spell/Heart Sutra which is referred to in the novel.

Simply put as it says, in the beginning, Buddha and Mind are one, and only when you view both as nothing do you reach Nirvana and the Dharmakaya. There is the bodiless body, meaning the body that is truly nothing is the true body. Just as it explains The Dharmakaya has no form or shape, it is not a part of the void, nor non-non emptiness.

All of this is adding up to show how disconnected the Dharmakaya and Nirvana is from everything else, separate from Buddhas who are still part of the Dharma and Bodhisattva's who still have not grasped the No-Mind Spell.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you explain your analysis/more important views regarding this topic in a single post here please, @Darksmash ?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm neutral on the 1-A stuff.

I agree with Sun Wukong's possible Tier addition via SIze Manipulation, and the Statistics Amplification seems fine. Though the infinite lifting strength and speed due to the staff thing is weird. It said it grew to 10 thousand feat in the scan.

 

[Darksmash]

It's by realizing all forms are one, this is explained through the novel showing recursions of nonexistence, information of existence and nonexistence, forms within emptiness, formlessness within form, touch, mind, and body, etc are all one. This is mentioned in the No-Mind Spell/Heart Sutra which is referred to in the novel.

Simply put as it says, in the beginning, Buddha and Mind are one, and only when you view both as nothing do you reach Nirvana and the Dharmakaya. There is the bodiless body, meaning the body that is truly nothing is the true body. Just as it explains The Dharmakaya has no form or shape, it is not a part of the void, nor non-non emptiness.

All of this is adding up to show how disconnected the Dharmakaya and Nirvana is from everything else, separate from Buddhas who are still part of the Dharma and Bodhisattva's who still have not grasped the No-Mind Spell.

Ok but the text says that one's mind or body containing all of existence is a truth that can only be realised by entering the so called "no mind" state, then why wouldn't this also mean that the statements about smaller things containing larger things are also referring to this very concept? Especially when it says a mustard seed contains THE Sumeru mountain (the "the" meaning that it isn't a small variation of said mountain but actually the mountain itself).

This is what Ultima was talking about in his post(from how I interpreted it at least) and he didn't use any additional material to arrive to this conclusion.

Can you explain your analysis/more important views regarding this topic in a single post here please, @Darksmash ?

It's nothing new all I did was reiterate what Ultima said.

 

[Antvasima]

It's nothing new all I did was reiterate what Ultima said.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm neutral on the 1-A stuff.

I agree with Sun Wukong's possible Tier addition via SIze Manipulation, and the Statistics Amplification seems fine. Though the infinite lifting strength and speed due to the staff thing is weird. It said it grew to 10 thousand feat in the scan.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ok but the text says that one's mind or body containing all of existence is a truth that can only be realised by entering the so called "no mind" state, then why wouldn't this also mean that the statements about smaller things containing larger things are also referring to this very concept? Especially when it says a mustard seed contains THE Sumeru mountain (the "the" meaning that it isn't a small variation of said mountain but actually the mountain itself).

Because it's only after the statements reveal that grains of sand contain worlds and buddha-realms that they admit there is more than one world and worlds beyond measure.

If it was talking about this concept, it would say this world exists within itself or something along those lines not that there are literally more worlds than this one.

 

[Darksmash]

Because it's only after the statements reveal that grains of sand contain worlds and buddha-realms that they admit there is more than one world and worlds beyond measure.

If it was talking about this concept, it would say this world exists within itself or something along those lines not that there are literally more worlds than this one.

Hmm, good point but I am not sure if that completely invalidates the no-mind interpretation.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Hmm, good point but I am not sure if that completely invalidates the no-mind interpretation.

What's the no-mind interpretation again?