1-A JTTW & Abilities CRT

[PrinceofPein]

We dealt with the something as vague and flowery as Cthulhu mythos before. This one is less vague but more flowery. Yet having many hidden context in the reality of things.

I am saying this is vague and does not mean much in the context of this discussion

The yin and yang in the novel, is stated to be boundless in their functions and there is NOT a gap that it hasn't filled. Which would mean the worlds below already had their own recursions due to the nature of duality to begin with.

 

[Udlmaster]

I wonder why I wasn't notified about this?

 

[Greatsage13th]

I wonder why I wasn't notified about this?

I know right?

 

[Greatsage13th]

I am saying this is vague and does not mean much in the context of this discussion

It does if you looked into the previous CRT and cosmology blog.

 

[Antvasima]

I wonder why I wasn't notified about this?

Because I didn't want any more drama to deal with, given your recent behaviour.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I am saying this is vague and does not mean much in the context of this discussion

It was explained in the cosmology blog many months beforehand. You just didn't check it before making your arguments.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It does if you looked into the previous CRT and cosmology blog.

It was explained in the cosmology blog many months beforehand. You just didn't check it before making your arguments.

If you want to make an argument copy and paste it here, that way new people can at least see it and know the why.

 

[Greatsage13th]

If you want to make an argument copy and paste it here, that way new people can at least see it and know the why.

The Great Way​

The Great Way through the Novel is depicted as a Higher Dimensional Force & Cosmic Force within JTTW. That first bit is important due to the fact Buddha's exist in every world. And as they exist in every world so would The Great Way. Because of this The Great Way in its totality can be considered composite. It's stated to encompass the entire Universe and is responsible for its imbuement.[23][24]


The Great Way being responsible for the Cosmos imbue seems vague unless you know of the context. The first of which is The Great Way is also known as The Great Vehicle and The Mahayana. This sub-section of teachings from The Buddha explains a Cosmology of Worlds existing in the grains of sand and atoms of larger Worlds and Buddha-Realms existing within Buddha-Realms. As you can probably imagine it's easy to make a connection.

The Dharma​

The Dharma is the very teachings of The Buddha and acts as a powerful Cosmic Force, being able to give beings powers through Subjective Reality. All of a Bodhisattva's abilities and a Buddhas come from it. On top of this it is stated to have the highest Authority and Potency out of everything, with nothing being higher. It controls The Universe and fills it as well, with there being no space it doesn't fill. It is unfathomable to beings such as Bodhisattvas who utilize its power. [25]


It is stated to be boundless, equal to the boundless power it can generate, stated multiple times. It should also be sated The Great Way is merely a subsection of The Dharma and would be a mere part/subsection of its boundlessness. The Three Vehicles include The Great Veicle also known as The Great Way.[26][27][28][29]

 

[Greatsage13th]

The Three Realms/Regions (Buddha-Realms)​

Moving on we have the Realms of Buddhas which exist paradoxically within and outside of The Realm of Desire. It is referred to as a Realm external to the Worldly Realm, with time there working completely differently, most likely as its own Space-Time. Within it there are endless buildings and it is further stated that it is safe from all Kalpa's. Kalpa's are the periods of time between the destruction and recreation of a universe/world. Along side this it also contains as many Worlds as Ganges' Sand which means Infinite in other translations existing within it.[14][15][16]




However, at the same time it is stated that a Buddhas Realm exists within a grain of sand. Which would make sense paired with the fact there are Buddha's in every world. With world's existing in grains of sand, Buddha's and subsequently their realms would as well.[17]

[URL='https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/70/Grain_of_Sand_%281%29.png]

[/URL]
So, to summarize a World in JTTW can potentially be split into two or three separate Space-Times which are the Three Realms. In each of these Realms there exists a ludicrous number of Buddha-Lands which are endless in size and holds has Infinite Worlds within it

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

the pictures aren`t loading

 

[Greatsage13th]

the pictures aren`t loading

I copy and pasted from the cosmology profile. It doesn't work.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Remove everything after the file format. For example the last image is

static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/70/Grain_of_Sand_%281%29.png/revision/latest?cb=20220305201246&mobile-app=true&theme=dark

Everything after .png (/revision/latest?cb=20220305201246&mobile-app=true&theme=dark) is unnecessary.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Remove everything after the file format. For example the last image is

Everything after .png (/revision/latest?cb=20220305201246&mobile-app=true&theme=dark) is unnecessary.

Hard to do this on mobile.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

The Great Way​

The Great Way through the Novel is depicted as a Higher Dimensional Force & Cosmic Force within JTTW. That first bit is important due to the fact Buddha's exist in every world. And as they exist in every world so would The Great Way. Because of this The Great Way in its totality can be considered composite. It's stated to encompass the entire Universe and is responsible for its imbuement.[23][24]


The Great Way being responsible for the Cosmos imbue seems vague unless you know of the context. The first of which is The Great Way is also known as The Great Vehicle and The Mahayana. This sub-section of teachings from The Buddha explains a Cosmology of Worlds existing in the grains of sand and atoms of larger Worlds and Buddha-Realms existing within Buddha-Realms. As you can probably imagine it's easy to make a connection.

The Dharma​

The Dharma is the very teachings of The Buddha and acts as a powerful Cosmic Force, being able to give beings powers through Subjective Reality. All of a Bodhisattva's abilities and a Buddhas come from it. On top of this it is stated to have the highest Authority and Potency out of everything, with nothing being higher. It controls The Universe and fills it as well, with there being no space it doesn't fill. It is unfathomable to beings such as Bodhisattvas who utilize its power. [25]


It is stated to be boundless, equal to the boundless power it can generate, stated multiple times. It should also be sated The Great Way is merely a subsection of The Dharma and would be a mere part/subsection of its boundlessness. The Three Vehicles include The Great Veicle also known as The Great Way.[26][27][28][29]

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

The Three Realms/Regions (Buddha-Realms)​

Moving on we have the Realms of Buddhas which exist paradoxically within and outside of The Realm of Desire. It is referred to as a Realm external to the Worldly Realm, with time there working completely differently, most likely as its own Space-Time. Within it there are endless buildings and it is further stated that it is safe from all Kalpa's. Kalpa's are the periods of time between the destruction and recreation of a universe/world. Along side this it also contains as many Worlds as Ganges' Sand which means Infinite in other translations existing within it.[14][15][16]




However, at the same time it is stated that a Buddhas Realm exists within a grain of sand. Which would make sense paired with the fact there are Buddha's in every world. With world's existing in grains of sand, Buddha's and subsequently their realms would as well.[17]

[URL='https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/70/Grain_of_Sand_%281%29.png]

[/URL]
So, to summarize a World in JTTW can potentially be split into two or three separate Space-Times which are the Three Realms. In each of these Realms there exists a ludicrous number of Buddha-Lands which are endless in size and holds has Infinite Worlds within it

 

[Greatsage13th]

Thanks

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

In any case, the Great Way being a part of the all-permeating Dharma is just another reason its imbuement of worlds should lead to recursion.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yep

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The Great Way
So now we have an understanding of how in the Main World of JTTW there are Infinite Worlds. But we're not done, we also need to talk about what is responsible for that. Within JTTW there is a Cosmis Force known as The Great Way, which encompasses the Universe. And is stated to be responsible for the cosmos's imbue. Now while the first scan is simple enough to understand the second one initially seem's vague on how it related to the Grains of Sand and Buddha-Realms. That is until you translate "The Great Way" into its other name, which is The Mahayana.[1]

That's not what the text is saying. "The Great Way's causes the cosmos imbue" means "The causes of the Great Way imbue the cosmos," not "The Great Way causes the imbue of the cosmos." The latter doesn't even make sense grammatically, since "imbue" is a verb, not an adjective.

Anyway, let me just present the quotes in question:

Mind is the Buddha and the Buddha is Mind;
Both Mind and Buddha are important things.
If you perceive there's neither Mind nor Thing,
Yours is the dharmakāya of True Mind.
The dharmakāya
Has no shape or form:
One pearl-like radiance holding myriad things.
The bodiless body is the body true,
And real form is that form which has no form.
There's no form, no void, no no-emptiness;
No coming, no leaving, no pariṇāmanā;
No contrast, no sameness, no being or nonbeing:
No giving, no taking, no hopeful craving.
Light efficacious is in and out the same.
Buddha's whole realm is in a grain of sand.
A grain of sand the chiliocosm holds;
One mind or body's like ten thousand things.
To know this you must grasp the No-mind Spell;
Unclogged and taintless is the karma pure.
Don't do the many acts of good or ill:
This is true submission to Śākyamuni

Ask at meditation-pass Why even countless queries Would lead just to empty old age!
Shine bricks to make mirrors?
Hoard snow for foodstuff? How many youths are thus deceived;
A feather swallows the great ocean?
A mustard seed holds the Sumeru?

To seek scriptures and freedom they go to the West, An endless toil through countless mounts of fame.
The days fly by like darting hares and crows;
As petals fall and birds sing the seasons go.
A little dust-the eye reveals three thousand worlds;
The priestly staff-its head has seen four hundred isles.

And for cross-referencing's sake, here's another, less archaically worded translation:

A Dharma−bodied Buddha has no form;
A single divine light contains the ten thousand images.
The bodiless body is the true body.
The imageless image is the real image.
It is not material, not empty, and not non−empty;
It does not come or go, nor does it return.
It is not different nor the same, it neither is nor isn't.
It can't be thrown away or caught, nor seen or heard.
The inner and outer divine light are everywhere the same;
A Buddha−kingdom can be found in a grain of sand.
A grain of sand can hold a thousand worlds;
In a single body and mind, all dharmas are the same.
For wisdom, the secret of no−mind is essential, To be unsullied and unobstructed is to be pure of karma.
When you do no good and do no evil, You become a Kasyapa Buddha.

If you try to ask about the dhyana Journey to the West
Or investigate the innumerable You will waste your life and achieve nothing.
Polishing bricks to make mirrors, Or piling up snow to turn it into grain−− However many years have you wasted like that?
A hair can contain an ocean, A mustard−seed can hold a mountain, And the golden Kasyapa only smiles.

They travel West escaping dangers to seek the scriptures;

Nor can they stop at all the famous mountains.

They press on night and day, starting crows and hares;

The seasons turn amid falling blossom and bird−song.

In the dust under one's eyes are three thousand worlds;

Four hundred prefectures rest on the head of a staff.

Sleeping in dew and dining on wind they climb the purple slope;

Never knowing when they will be able to start back

Bringing to attention this bit in particular:

A grain of sand the chiliocosm holds;
One mind or body's like ten thousand things.
To know this you must grasp the No-mind Spell;
Unclogged and taintless is the karma pure.

A grain of sand can hold a thousand worlds;
In a single body and mind, all dharmas are the same.
For wisdom, the secret of no−mind is essential, To be unsullied and unobstructed is to be pure of karma.

In the latter translation, it states that in the body and mind of a single person, all dharmas are the same, with "dharma" in this context meaning the phenomena of the world, and as such referring to any object or thing present in our everyday, perceivable reality. The first translation says much the same, since "ten thousand things" in the context of Chinese Philosophy is a term used to refer to the full set of all things in existence. So, what this paragraph says is basically that a single person somehow also contains the whole of existence within themselves, and that to comprehend this principle, one must attain the state of "no-mind."

I did some further reading into Buddhism, as well as the whole concept of how small things can paradoxically contain large things, and in my searches I found this bit of information:

Huayan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A key doctrine of Huayan is the mutual containment and interpenetration of all phenomena (dharmas) or "perfect interfusion" (yuanrong, 圓融). This is associated with what the Huayan sees as its unique contribution, the "dharmadhatu pratityasamutpada". This is described by Wei Daoru as the idea that "countless dharmas (all phenomena in the world) are representations of the wisdom of Buddha without exception" and that "they exist in a state of mutual dependence, interfusion and balance without any contradiction or conflict. This thought essentially argues that there is no relationship of cause and result among phenomena and that things are not formed sequentially. Instead, they constitute the world by the mutual interfusion of complete equality."

According to this theory, any phenomenon exists only as part of the total nexus of reality, its existence depends on the total network of all other things, which are all equally connected to each other and contained in each other.

Buddhist philosophy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Huayan developed the doctrine of "interpenetration" or "coalescence" (Wylie: zung-'jug; Sanskrit: yuganaddha), based on the Avataṃsaka Sūtra (Flower Garland Sutra), a Mahāyāna scripture. Huayan holds that all phenomena (Sanskrit: dharmas) are deeply interconnected, mutually arising and that every phenomenon contains all other phenomena. Various metaphors and images are used to illustrate this idea. The first is known as Indra's net. The net is set with jewels which have the extraordinary property that they reflect all of the other jewels, while the reflections also contain every other reflection, ad infinitum. The second image is that of the world text. This image portrays the world as consisting of an enormous text which is as large as the universe itself. The words of the text are composed of the phenomena that make up the world. However, every atom of the world contains the whole text within it. It is the work of a Buddha to let out the text so that beings can be liberated from suffering.

Reality in Buddhism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The concepts of not-permanent and not-self in objective terms, for example by deconstructing the concept of an aggregated object such as a lotus and seeing that the flower is made up entirely of non-flower elements like soil, nutrients, photosynthetic energy, rain water and the effort of the entities that nourished and grew the flower. All of these factors, according to the Diamond Sutra, co-exist with each other to manifest what we call a 'flower'. In other words, there is no essence arisen from nothingness that is unique and personal to any being. In particular, there is neither a human soul that lives on beyond the death of the physical body nor one that is extinguished at death since, strictly speaking, there is nothing to extinguish. The relative reality (i.e., the illusory perceived reality) comes from our belief that human life is separate from the rest of the things in the universe and, at times, at odds with the processes of nature and other beings. The ultimate or absolute reality, in some schools of Buddhist thought, shows that we are inter-connected with all things. The concept of non-discrimination expands on this by saying that, while a chair is different from a flower, they 'inter-are' because they are each made of non-flower and non-chair elements. Ultimately those elements are the same, so the distinction between chair and flower is one of quantity not of quality.

So, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but from the looks of it, it seems like there is no actual hierarchy of universes here: Small things (e.g. A mustard seed) containing large things (e.g. The Sumeru) seems to be just a metaphor for how, in Buddhist Cosmology, all phenomena are interdependent on each other, and as such there are no such things as separate, discrete objects. All things then are in a state of "interpenetration," where every part contains and reflects the whole (As illustrated by the analogy of Indra's Net)

So, yeah, I heavily doubt the validity of High 1-B here, given that. In fact, given how the idea that there is a literal hierarchy of universes-within-universes seems fairly important to the verse's tiering (So much so that it features on the explanation blog), I'd wager a reexamination of the cosmology may be in order, if what I say is correct.

 

[Greatsage13th]

That's not what the text is saying. "The Great Way's causes the cosmos imbue" means "The causes of the Great Way imbue the cosmos," not "The Great Way causes the imbue of the cosmos." The latter doesn't even make sense grammatically, since "imbue" is a verb, not an adjective.

Anyway, let me just present the quotes in question:







And for cross-referencing's sake, here's another, less archaically worded translation:







Bringing to attention this bit in particular:





In the latter translation, it states that in the body and mind of a single person, all dharmas are the same, with "dharma" in this context meaning the phenomena of the world, and as such referring to any object or thing present in our everyday, perceivable reality. The first translation says much the same, since "ten thousand things" in the context of Chinese Philosophy is a term used to refer to the full set of all things in existence. So, what this paragraph says is basically that a single person somehow also contains the whole of existence within themselves, and that to comprehend this principle, one must attain the state of "no-mind."

I did some further reading into Buddhism, as well as the whole concept of how small things can paradoxically contain large things, and in my searches I found this bit of information:

Huayan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Buddhist philosophy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Reality in Buddhism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but from the looks of it, it seems like there is no actual hierarchy of universes here: Small things (e.g. A mustard seed) containing large things (e.g. The Sumeru) seems to be just a metaphor for how, in Buddhist Cosmology, all phenomena are interdependent on each other, and as such there are no such things as separate, discrete objects. All things then are in a state of "interpenetration," where every part contains and reflects the whole (As illustrated by the analogy of Indra's Net)

So, yeah, I heavily doubt the validity of High 1-B here, given that. In fact, given how the idea that there is a literal hierarchy of universes-within-universes seems fairly important to the verse's tiering (So much so that it features on the explanation blog), I'd wager a reexamination of the cosmology may be in order, if what I say is correct.

The thing is, we never used outside sources to attempt to upgrade JTTW. So if we used outside sources from the novel to do an upgrade or downgrade. We have to make a total reset of the verse and start from scratch AGAIN.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We have to make a total reset of the verse and start from scratch AGAIN.

Yeah, that's what I'm suggesting, unfortunately. The outside sources I'm largely only using as references for things that JTTW itself is already saying, since you can't really detach a work like this from the historical context in which it was written. The fact it's stated that to grasp the concept of "small containing large" you need to attain the state of no-mind seems like it fairly obviously points towards that direction, too, as does the "all dharmas (phenomena) are the same." And... Really, just the fact that these statements come up in the context of comprehending how all things are ultimately empty of essence (sunyata).

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yeah, that's what I'm suggesting, unfortunately. The outside sources I'm largely only using as references for things that JTTW itself is already saying, since you can't really detach a work like this from the historical context in which it was written. The fact it's stated that to grasp the concept of "small containing large" you need to attain the state of no-mind seems like it fairly obviously points towards that direction, too, as does the "all dharmas (phenomena) are the same." And... Really, just the fact that these statements come up in the context of comprehending how all things are ultimately empty of essence (sunyata).

Yes, but those are mostly from a philosophical standpoint. The novel however isn't a philosophical one.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also, even though the terms are seemingly interchangeable, we can't really do that. If we were to use your interpretation, it would be us taking the verse from a religious and philosophical standpoint which isn't allowed on any wiki profiles.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

If we arent allowed to use things from outside of JTTW for upgrades we surely can't do the same for downgrades/changing meanings, if we can then all hell will break lose.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

In any case, a lot of things in JTTW aren't metaphorical especially the world statements as it's mentioned many times via narration there are more than one world and that is only revealed after the grains of sand statements are revealed.

 

[Greatsage13th]

In any case, a lot of things in JTTW aren't metaphorical especially the world statements as it's mentioned many times via narration there are more than one world and that is only revealed after the grains of sand statements are revealed.

Might wanna post the scan.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The first is straight in clear statement of there being buddhas in all "Worlds"

The second is the scriptures affecting the great world which also translates to worlds beyond measure.

And Tripitaka straight up says there are multiple worlds when he composes a poem from within in the JTTW Universe itself.

Edit; Oh and we specifically don't use that "less archaically worded translation" as our main translation due to the fact it is outdated and causes a lot of meaning to be lost through translation in comparison to the revised edition. Some phrases are completely changed or simply don't exist. When I realized that I redid the entire Sun Wukong Profile getting rid of a lot of his abilities it. As of then it's been used as secondary evidence when a more accurate translation supports it.

 

[Udlmaster]

Flower Garland, or Huayan Mahayana Buddhism isn't entirely metaphorical.

Gonna explain the concepts to Ultima elsewhere.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Flower Garland, or Huayan isn't entirely metaphorical.

Gonna explain the concepts to Ultima elsewhere.

Glad to know

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Ultima. You seem to make sense above, but let's wait and see what your conclusions are after talking with Udlmaster.

 

[ShivaShakti]

In my opinion Tier 1 is likely legitimate, however, regardless we will still need to create a new cosmology blog.

 

[Lewis]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Ultima. You seem to make sense above, but let's wait and see what your conclusions are after talking with Udlmaster.

@Ultima_Reality

What do you currently think about this?

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Following you've really done it Actually Spaceman damn

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well like I stated before if Ultima brings an argument, it has to be backed up by what's stated in the novel.

We weren't allowed to use real-life Buddhism as the main evidence for upgrades so there is no reason one can use real-life Buddhism for debunks either.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well like I stated before if Ultima brings an argument, it has to be backed up by what's stated in the novel.

We weren't allowed to use real-life Buddhism as the main evidence for upgrades so there is no reason one can use real-life Buddhism for debunks either.

Maybe it is a long project.

But I will try to make a summary for each and every chapter of Journey to the West (I mean, the Traditional Chinese text).

And will summarise my findings in one or more blogs.

To make sure that no information is being neglected or abridged or (any nonexistent information) inserted.

But it is going to be a long and extended project and likely the CRTs will just move on until my reexamination is complete.

It is totally just my own feeling but from a storytelling point and my feeling after actually skimming through the whole novel it may not seem like Sun Wukong would get an upgrade into 1-A. Will not affect anything here (just my feeling and opinion after all) but this will be my own leisure project I am going to do anyway.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It was going so well... So gosh damn well, JTTW just can't have it, easy man.

 

[ÆONS]

Unfollowing. Good luck everyone.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well, I have begun to read another translation of Journey To The West provided by Udlmaster, which appears to be superior for our purposes.

I am collecting evidence as we speak.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well, I have begun to read another translation of Journey To The West provided by Udlmaster, which appears to be superior for our purposes.

I am collecting evidence as we speak.

Which one, make sure it's not the outdated version.