1-A Imaginary & Metaphysics

[Weaver261]

No it's not. "Ontological superiority" was never mentioned or even implied. All you did was take a single one-off mention of "ontology" and assume that all unrelated statements of "transcendence" refer to "ontological transcendence" for no actual reason whatsoever.

You also mentioned Imaginary being the "essence of the cosmos" and ideas shaping reality in Honkai but literally none of that shit is outer.

I only added ontology part becuz Henry said I should for the sake of letting others know that ontology exists in Honkai verse. This is not what is important for 1-A upgrade.

Imaginary being true essence of cosmo imply material world is not true essence. There's only true and false in boolean. In R>F, qualitative superiorly is achieved by a higher plane being more real than the lower one. True essence means it's more real. Not to mention Spiritual Adam explicitly stated how humans see it as a dream but to it, humans are dreams. It's also the world of ideas where ideas shape reality. In plato theory of forms, ideas are higher than material. Ideas are more real than material. Honkai series is heavily inspired by this theory in finale chapters

The Theory of Forms or Theory of Ideas,[1][2][3] also known as Platonic idealism or Platonic realism, is a philosophical theory widely credited to the Classical Greek philosopher Plato. A major concept in metaphysics, the theory suggests that the physical world is not as real or true as Forms. According to this theory, Forms—conventionally capitalized and also commonly translated as Ideas[4]—are the non-physical, timeless, absolute, and unchangeable essences of all things, which objects and matter in the physical world merely imitate, resemble, or participate in.

All of this are clear cut qualitative superiorly for 1-A justification.

 

[Weaver261]

Bump

 

[Telomera]

True essence means it's more real.

What a reach. Non sequitur.

Not to mention Spiritual Adam explicitly stated how humans see it as a dream but to it, humans are dreams.

Then it's not hierarchical and thus not R>F. It's a mutual relationship.


Is this really all that your argument is based off of? This is nonsense and should be rejected already.

 

[Weaver261]

What a reach. Non sequitur.

Then it's not hierarchical and thus not R>F. It's a mutual relationship.


Is this really all that your argument is based off of? This is nonsense and should be rejected already.

I'm just stating facts here. Whether it's reach or not will be evaluated by the staffs.
Rather being R>F, I'm talking about what is real and what is not. Spritual Adam is all about converting humanity into a higher existence comparable to Cocoon. Wdym it's not hierarchical? I'm sure Ultima or other knowledgable staffs and members would know better than you about Theory of forms. I will just wait for their evaluations. If you don't got anymore substantial arugments for this except saying like "This is nonsense, this should be rejected", I suggest you to not derail or prolong the thread for the sake of easier evaluation for the staffs

 

[Telomera]

Wdym it's not hierarchical? I'm sure Ultima or other knowledgable staffs and members would know better than you about Theory of forms. I will just wait for their evaluations.

Where's your proof that Honkai even uses the Theory of Forms?

 

[Weaver261]

Where's your proof that Honkai even uses the Theory of Forms?

???: Anyhow, we’re living in an underground cave. Oh, I’m not talking about this vault!
???: We’re merely primitives chained in a cave and facing a blank wall with a fire behind us.
???: Occasionally, shadows are projected on the wall… those shadows are the world to us.
???: This is okay for most primitives. They put their heart and soul into them, worshiping and extolling their made up stories.
???: Suppose at long last, a primitive broke free from the chains and went straight outside the cave. It goes without saying that the outside world is unbounded and spectacular.
???: The question is, do you think this primitive would stay outside or go back to save the others?
Kevin: …They don’t necessarily need saving. There are things that the primitive must do.
???: Oh? That’s an interesting answer. But Kevin, don’t tell me you’ve…
???: …Taken yourself as that fire in the cave?
Theresa: …
Theresa: I’m not sure if I got it, but it sounds like, for Kevin and the others… Project STIGMA meant more than conquering the Honkai.
Will of Stigmata: Stigmata record their knowledge and your history. If we apply that allegory to our civilisation…
Will of Stigmata: I fear that humans are the shadows on the wall, and Stigmata are all things true outside the cave.

Theresa: Forms?
Will of Stigmata: Forms are the common goal of humans and Stigmata… especially so for people like you who’ve had Stigmata written in your genes since fifty thousand years ago.
Will of Stigmata: I think you clearly know what Herrschers are. Forms are the polar opposite of Herrschers. They’re even quite similar in appearance.
Will of Stigmata: However, you’ve never seen a form, nor could recognise an Equinox in front of you. Therefore, in your language, we can translate Project STIGMA as…
Will of Stigmata: To abandon the humans cursed by Herrschers and redefine civilisation on another basis.

Theory of forms :

the theory suggests that the physical world is not as real or true as Forms. According to this theory, Forms—conventionally capitalized and also commonly translated as Ideas are the non-physical, timeless, absolute, and unchangeable essences of all things, which objects and matter in the physical world merely imitate, resemble, or participate in.

Why imaginary being the true essence is important

These Forms are the essences of various objects: they are that without which a thing would not be the kind of thing it is. For example, there are countless tables in the world but the Form of tableness is at the core; it is the essence of all of them. Plato's Socrates held that the world of Forms is transcendent to our own world (the world of substances) and also is the essential basis of reality.

 

[Eseseso]

Following, even though I'm neutral for now

 

[Telomera]

Theory of forms :

Why imaginary being the true essence is important

These quotes just make it clear that Honkai DOESN'T fit with Plato's Theory of Forms. Stigmata are "what's outside of the cave" whereas the goal of stigmata are "forms." This indicates that "forms" in Honkai and "what's outside of the cave" are separate things, which doesn't fit with Plato's Theory of Forms at all whatsoever.

Additionally, as your source explains, Platonic Forms are "unchangeable" yet both the Imaginary and spirits, which you claim to be a Platonic Form (or aggregation of Platonic Forms?), undergo change all the damn time in Honkai. Otto transformed it and Kiana used hax to destroy it, and there are countless other examples of souls undergoing change.

And again, there's the whole issue of the difference between the Earth's Honkai and the entire imaginary tree being quantitative

 

[Telomera]

Additionally, as one of your scans point out, normal reality does in fact affect Imaginary (even if only rarely) even though this would be impossible if Imaginary actually had R>F over normal reality, was a Platonic form, or was 1-A.

 

[Telomera]

Further confirmation of Imaginary/Stigma/Souls being affected by normal reality

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Further confirmation of Imaginary/Stigma/Souls being affected by normal reality

at least put translation here, or get cn translator helper to do approve translation
same as OP, mtl and fan translations aint valid due to recent events

 

[Telomera]

at least put translation here, or get cn translator helper to do approve translation
same as OP, mtl and fan translations aint valid due to recent events

Damn for real? No Honkai thread is ever going to pass at this rate

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Damn for real? No Honkai thread is ever going to pass at this rate

blame tensura mf who made that happen to translations shit

 

[Weaver261]

These quotes just make it clear that Honkai DOESN'T fit with Plato's Theory of Forms. Stigmata are "what's outside of the cave" whereas the goal of stigmata are "forms." This indicates that "forms" in Honkai and "what's outside of the cave" are separate things, which doesn't fit with Plato's Theory of Forms at all whatsoever.

Did you even play the game? Anyway, Forms are not forms in Honkai. In project stigma, forms are already realized new type of humans that comes from stigmata.

Will of Stigmata: Yes. Their consciousness will be converted into an existence the same as Stigmata and recede to the interstice of the Imaginary world. Correspondingly…

Will of Stigmata: The thoughts in Stigmata will be given form, gradually descend to the external space, and replace people in their sleep.

You don't need to be 1 to 1 copy paste of theory of forms. Honkai already showed obvious allegories and explanation of theory of forms. I only showed you forms just because you were asking if Honkai even use this theory. Stigma are imaginary not the forms.

Additionally, as your source explains, Platonic Forms are "unchangeable" yet both the Imaginary and spirits, which you claim to be a Platonic Form (or aggregation of Platonic Forms?), undergo change all the damn time in Honkai. Otto transformed it and Kiana used hax to destroy it, and there are countless other examples of souls undergoing change.

Where's the proof of imaginary and spirit changing? If you are talking about ggz scan of alya talking about stigma world, you are wrong. Because stigma is basically a blueprint.

MEI: Dr. Mobius. As members of the MOTHs, you and I are ultimately responsible for the whole of civilisation.

MEI: In that sense, compared to the life of an individual, the truth brought forth by life is a more essential existence.

“Vill-V”: In other words… Vill-V’s talent is more important than Vill-V’s identity?

“Vill-V”: Ah, you can say that.

Also about Otto and Kiana stuffs, Kiana never destroyed imaginary itself. All she did was leveraging the rules of imaginary to convert infinite to finite effectively able to defeat Otto. Also man made imaginary spaces are not qualify for 1-A since they are superposed onto real world rather than existing as imaginary. Sirin often do that,

And again, there's the whole issue of the difference between the Earth's Honkai and the entire imaginary tree being quantitative

I have already explained why that is dumb to scale using that.

Additionally, as one of your scans point out, normal reality does in fact affect Imaginary (even if only rarely) even though this would be impossible if Imaginary actually had R>F over normal reality, was a Platonic form, or was 1-A.

Actually they are giving metaphors about how stigma can change people but there was never an instant of people changing stigma. We can remove that line but we already have multiple scans about imaginary being essence and origin so that's not a problem. Even so, Mistenln said she can't even confirm it.

Misteln Schariac: Ideas shape reality quietly, and it’s seldom the other way around.

Misteln Schariac: A Stigmata can easily change a human, but I’ve never seen a human change a Stigmata.

Gray Serpent: You think that person did it?

Misteln Schariac: I can’t confirm it. In fact, I can’t even transcribe her fully.

 

[Eseseso]

We need more staff in here.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

What? That's not even a complete sentence. Please elaborate properly.

You can claim that all you want, but such claims have no ground if you do not provide the actual context (evidence) or explain how this context supports your point (reasoning). Remember, ClEvR. Claim, Evidence, Reasoning

I literally did. Unfortunately you can't track

 

[Gui]

Add this to this thread. (find the scans for me tho)

Within Hoyoverse, we know that Ontology (State of being) exists. If it does, then when mentioning "higher planes" or "transcendence," the context given would go along with the narrative unless stated otherwise. The IM-Space, in its root, is some type of ontological abstraction in which its state lies beyond the normal conceptions of space and time, which said space and time make up physical vectors.

Yup it does

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Yup it does

Fax goat

 

[Telomera]

Did you even play the game? Anyway, Forms are not forms in Honkai. In project stigma, forms are already realized new type of humans that comes from stigmata.

Why bring them up then? If your scaling is about Platonic forms, and these "forms" aren't actually Platonic forms, then don't bring them up. It's irrelevant.

Where's the proof of imaginary and spirit changing? If you are talking about ggz scan of alya talking about stigma world, you are wrong. Because stigma is basically a blueprint.

Stigma/souls are imaginary (according to you). Stigma/souls change based on the experience one has in the world. Therefore, imaginary changes based on the experience one has in the world. It's simple transitive logic.

Also about Otto and Kiana stuffs, Kiana never destroyed imaginary itself. All she did was leveraging the rules of imaginary to convert infinite to finite effectively able to defeat Otto.

Yes she did. It says right here that the Imaginary Space itself was destroyed. Even if she used hax, that doesn't change the fact that the Imaginary Space was destroyed. You mentioning the fact that she "leverag[ed] the rules of imaginary" doesn't change the fact that imaginary itself changed. It's even worse if imaginary's own rules allow itself to be changed!

Also man made imaginary spaces are not qualify for 1-A since they are superposed onto real world rather than existing as imaginary. Sirin often do that,

What the **** kinda logic is that? Just because that imaginary space was "superimposed" doesn't mean it isn't actually an imaginary space.

Even so, Mistenln said she can't even confirm it.

She was only talking about HUMANS changing stigmata. She still said that normal reality affects stigmata with the only caveat to that statement being that it happens rarely.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

blame tensura mf who made that happen to translations shit

didn’t one of the Honkai top supporter(a staff no less, right now retired) use a damn mod in the past and got banned as a result. This shit is even a bigger thing than a mere translation incident

 

[Amalyris]

blame tensura mf who made that happen to translations shit

Blame your own self for not being able to comprehend what the context is and is being hidden it rather than blaming other fanbase for something that you lack bruh

 

[PedjaTarzan]

didn’t one of the Honkai top supporter(a staff no less, right now retired) use a damn mod in the past and got banned as a result. This shit is even a bigger thing than a mere translation incident

no? what you talking about

 

[Amalyris]

Who even said that thing? A translation done by the game is also considered as an OTL

at least put translation here, or get cn translator helper to do approve translation
same as OP, mtl and fan translations aint valid due to recent events

 

[Weaver261]

Stigma/souls are imaginary (according to you). Stigma/souls change based on the experience one has in the world. Therefore, imaginary changes based on the experience one has in the world. It's simple transitive logic.

Yes she did. It says right here that the Imaginary Space itself was destroyed. Even if she used hax, that doesn't change the fact that the Imaginary Space was destroyed. You mentioning the fact that she "leverag[ed] the rules of imaginary" doesn't change the fact that imaginary itself changed. It's even worse if imaginary's own rules allow itself to be changed!

Can you show the proof of you played the game cuz I highly doubt you haven't. I don't care if you ignore my explanation again just like before, I will explain this to the staffs.

The scans he provided were misleading out of context (idk if he did that intentionally or is he just dumb). Telomera claimed Imaginary space itself was destroyed by Kiana's void power. But that's only half of the truth.
Here is protagonist's team plan for defeating Otto Apocalypse which is to leverage imaginary tree. Basically, they are trying to get Otto caught up in the special exchange of imaginary space. The first two scans of this, durandal talking about destroying imaginary is referring to that.

Durandal: Imaginary authority…

Durandal: If the “Imaginary” itself is destroyed, will that nullify its authority as well?

Kiana: You mean with the Herrscher of the Void’s power? Nagamitsu mentioned something similar…

In this scan you can see how Otto imaginary space wasn't destroyed by Kiana's void power but vanished due to losing his authority
Imaginary space while in void power explosion.
Imaginary space after explosion which remain unscathed.
Here it's said the church (imaginary space) is resonating with Otto's power. Further proving that imaginary space vanished due to Otto losing his power not becuz of void power.

She was only talking about HUMANS changing stigmata. She still said that normal reality affects stigmata with the only caveat to that statement being that it happens rarely.

Mistenln clearly said she have never seen it before so it's just her hypothesis. She even said she can't confirm that. I hope you got the brain capacity to comprehend that. I won't explain that again. The audacity to take a line out of context when I provided you with the full context is laughable.

Stigma/souls are imaginary (according to you).

Never said souls are imaginary. I just said souls are spiritual. Only the composition of souls which caused the stigmata is imaginary. You are saying a table is platonic form while the idea of the table is actually the platonic form.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Blame your own self for not being able to comprehend what the context is and is being hidden it rather than blaming other fanbase for something that you lack bruh

Take a joke bro, or if you cant check the thread here

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Who even said that thing? A translation done by the game is also considered as an OTL

there could be mistranslations obviously, just how elysian realm is called "Imaginary Space" in english in the game, on CN is called "cyberspace" (written in op) thats why i suggested CN translation helper, to confirm the translations from them are valid

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

no? what you talking about

didn’t Garr(now retired) got banned once by abusing his/her authority as a mod to wank Honkai. Like this shit is even much worse than a whole tensura translation incident.

 

[Amalyris]

there could be mistranslations obviously, just how elysian realm is called "Imaginary Space" in english in the game, on CN is called "cyberspace" (written in op) thats why i suggested CN translation helper, to confirm the translations from them are valid

"Mistranslations"

 

[PedjaTarzan]

didn’t Garr(now retired) got banned once by abusing his/her authority as a mod to wank Honkai. Like this shit is even much worse than a whole tensura translation incident.

he deleted the verse without staff who actually have that eval right. plus a lot of offsite shit that was covered since he likes running fade with discord mfs.

 

[Amalyris]

he deleted the verse without staff who actually have that eval right. plus a lot of offsite shit that was covered since he likes running fade with discord mfs.

And his point still stands

 

[PedjaTarzan]

And his point still stands

cool, didnt ask now lets not derail and leave these two to debate something that doesnt have anything with R>F for verse

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

he deleted the verse without staff who actually have that eval right. plus a lot of offsite shit that was covered since he likes running fade with discord mfs.

You guys got a tier 0 Honkai due to garr’s support nevertheless unlike tensura who got no active staff supporters since 2022 and somehow got criticized a lot due to a mere translation incident I mean does like any other verses also have that kind of problem but somehow don’t get criticized? I trying to be inoffensive here and act cordially

 

[Weaver261]

Also I would like explain further about what Mistenln meant by ideas shape reality. She is using that analogy to say that stigma can change people but people have never changed stigma at least as far as she aware.

Stigma are like records. As mentioned in allegory of cave reference, stigma records knowledge and history which help shape the form of stigma better.

Gray Serpent: Stigmata Space gathers all of humanity’s consciousness and knowledge. This means that any existence, even one as strange as you…

Gray Serpent: Can be captured by Project STIGMA, as long as you have a consciousness similar to that of a human’s.

It's not humans actively trying to change stigma with their power but it's stigma's nature. Mistenln even said she was wrong.

Misteln Schariac: Ideas shape reality quietly, and it’s seldom the other way around.
Misteln Schariac: A Stigmata can easily change a human, but I’ve never seen a human change a Stigmata.
Gray Serpent: You think that person did it?
Misteln Schariac: I can’t confirm it. In fact, I can’t even transcribe her fully.
Misteln Schariac: But since you said that child is perfectly average…
Misteln Schariac: Gray Serpent, I’m afraid I was wrong… too wrong.

Yes, stigmata can change by itself by gathering from humanity. Even if that doesn't fit the strict definition of platonic concepts, it's also still true that stigma are the real thing outside the cave when humanity is the shadow. I am only proposing the idea of what is real and what is not. Platonic forms and stuffs are just for there to support that. This series is heavily inspired by platonic forms in that chapter and it is undeniable.

 

[Voidnether]

You guys got a tier 0 Honkai due to garr’s support nevertheless unlike tensura who got no active staff supporters since 2022 and somehow got criticized a lot due to a mere translation incident I mean does like any other verses also have that kind of problem but somehow don’t get criticized? I trying to be inoffensive here and act cordially

I'm sorry but GarrixianXD only helped at the last part, even after that there's still another thread made by Weaver to finalize it as I'm pretty sure if I may recall: It was Ultima who agreed then he changed stance to neutral before GarrixianXD (Mind you back then garri barely cares about that Tier 0 thread even after Ultima's inputs).

Tensura not having any active staff supporters are wrong, if you follow Tensura back to mid 2024, you'd get someone like Elizhaa and DDM there on the thread — If you were talking about the current ones, especially the Tier 0: It's mostly based on Ultima disagreeing, hence staff becomes unsure about it. Compare it to Yog from GGZ and you'd see that this case was a blatant one (DDM's input to Yog compared to Tier 0 Tensura).

I could agree with the cosmology stuff from 12-D to 1-A+, but I don't with the Tier 0 one. That's just a completely different stuff without GarrixianXD's intervention at all.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

@Ultima_Reality, @Qawsedf234, @GrathOfLux
I was asked to ping some mods

 

[Robo432343]

i agree with possible rating

 

[Telomera]

Also I would like explain further about what Mistenln meant by ideas shape reality. She is using that analogy to say that stigma can change people but people have never changed stigma at least as far as she aware.

Stigma are like records. As mentioned in allegory of cave reference, stigma records knowledge and history which help shape the form of stigma better.

It's not humans actively trying to change stigma with their power but it's stigma's nature. Mistenln even said she was wrong.


Yes, stigmata can change by itself by gathering from humanity. Even if that doesn't fit the strict definition of platonic concepts, it's also still true that stigma are the real thing outside the cave when humanity is the shadow. I am only proposing the idea of what is real and what is not. Platonic forms and stuffs are just for there to support that. This series is heavily inspired by platonic forms in that chapter and it is undeniable.

So you at least acknowledge that Honkai doesn't actually use Plato's Theory of Forms, but is at best inspired by it.

All you have now is a character dreaming of going to another universe (which isn't necessarily R>F by our standards or logically) and a one-off reference to Plato's allegory of the cave. But first, you need to actually give the scans for that allegory of the cave part as well as show where it's from and get a reliable translation (which, from my understanding, is either official or from a staff member, but even official translations seem to be suspect at this point).

 

[Weaver261]

Bump

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

At first, I thought it was fine for 1-A. I've read part about Imaginary Space which didn't look much at all like 1-A until I went to the Star Dream portion which supposedly is part of Imaginary Space and I skimmed through that story and it seemed fine.

However, I decided to reread back at it because I was not in the mindset about Imaginary Space being 1-A(If only, the “dream space” was separate from it) then I read it more thoroughly and I'm not convinced about the dreaming aspect being R>F. Everything12 also disagreed about the dream aspect and I see why he said so.

I dunno, that Star Dream section started strong but as it continues it seems less like R>F and more about a literal imaginary dream. That's also due to the weaker evidence that's meant to bolster the rating(Which in my opinion was reliant on Star Dream being the case for R>F since the rest of the information seems to be more or less useless). I want to see further arguments, but you can put me for neutral.

 

[Weaver261]

However, I decided to reread back at it because I was not in the mindset about Imaginary Space being 1-A(If only, the “dream space” was separate from it) then I read it more thoroughly and I'm not convinced about the dreaming aspect being R>F. Everything12 also disagreed about the dream aspect and I see why he said so.

Imaginary space is the word that encapsulates every space with imaginary nature. Within imaginary, there are variations like Honkai being a type of imaginary internal energy, stigmata space which is responsible for recording, etc... As you can see here everything outside real spaces is imaginary space but when somebody is dealing with imaginary space, they are dealing with a sector of it rather than relating to all imaginary space. These imaginary spaces can exists in infinite amount.
Everything12 disagreed with star dream's part becuz R>F happened not due to her powers but rather other's actions. But you have to remember that Star Dream is already existing in imaginary space which is ontologically superior to real space in which the rabbit civilization exists. They just moved into her dream after their universe collapsed. So, R>F didn't happened. It was already R>F even before the migration.

I dunno, that Star Dream section started strong but as it continues it seems less like R>F and more about a literal imaginary dream. That's also due to the weaker evidence that's meant to bolster the rating(Which in my opinion was reliant on Star Dream being the case for R>F since the rest of the information seems to be more or less useless). I want to see further arguments, but you can put me for neutral.

Star dream parts aren't the only thing that is supporting R>F. I have presented tons of evidences of why imaginary is more real than material world. I would like know why you think these parts are weak for 1-A.