1/3 Triforce, Vaati upgrade, Demise and possible mid godly to Ganondorf (by proxy mid godly negat to Link)

[AshenCrow777]

Continued from here (around the end) https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3459266?useskin=oasis

1. We will discuss here if 1/3 piece of Triforce is eligible for a 4-A rating via basic scaling.

2 Vaatis feat does not seem to be an outlier anymore thanks to more info we have about the light force.

3 Demise predating the Zelda multiverse. (still have to see where he stands)

4.mid godly regen for Ganondorf possibly Link too (also Reactive Evolution for ganon) So shouldn't Ganon have Reactive Evolution?

Reactive Evolution:Ganondorf adapted to the time stop placed by the Golden Goddesses (in wind waker) developing a resistance to it, has adapted to the Master Sword a blade meant to destroy him and has made it where it can only seal him at times rather then negating his Regenerationn and immortality and has constantly adapted to sealing.

possibly Mid-Godly: With the triforce of power Ganon's hatred manifested Shadow Link who has supposedly mid godly Regenerationn. His phantom can regenerate from complete destruction. Ganon also has regenerated from his malice alone.

That means TP users and/or full TF users are the only ones that will gain Mid godly (Link will also have the ability to negate it) and breath of the wild Ganondorf will have mid godly regen.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

1/3 triforce was rejected for 4-A, I believe. Vaati should be fine, I don't know what to think about Demise.

Mid-Godly maybe, but I'll have to see what other people say about it.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Not gonna fully comment yet, but you really need scans to back up a lot of this. When has Shadow Link or Phantom Ganon regenerated from having their existence erased? Also regenerating from his malice is Low-Godly, Mid-Godly would require him coming back from existence erasure.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Neutral on Vaati, against everything else.

We have no proof of Demise predating the Zelda universe, since the statement about one of the bosses (not even Demise itself) about them predating time may very well be hyperbolic, or, at best, referring to the fact that they may have been created before Nayru created time.

He never adapted to those things. He simply breaks free over an extended period of time. The Master Sword thing is simply false.

I'm assuming you're talking about FSA!Shadow Link. I don't know much about it, but creating a being with Mid-Godly (assuming it's legit) still wouldn't give Ganon Mid-Godly.

 

[AshenCrow777]

But the thing is 1/3 triforce is actually pretty strong

Ganon giving a portion of his power to Zant had Zant warp the entire twilight realm, it holds the essence of Din making it superior to Hylia who is in turn superior to The Wind Fish.

The Twilight Realm contains multiple Sols, and was also warped into many scenes withstars. Zant warping it into Hyrule Field would include its multitude of stars.

Sols are spherical objects that light the Twilight Realm, similar to the sun of the World of Light.

They are made of pure power and are the source of life for the citizens of the Twilight Realm, as well as the source of power for various pieces of Twili technology.

The light of the Sols can cut through Zant's dark fog, which is made of Shadow Crystals, and without it, the Twili gradually transform into beasts.

Later in the game, the light of the Sols is transferred to the Master Sword to create a "Light Sword."

With only two pieces of it Yuga Ganon was going to consume/warp both Lorule and Hyrule.

 

[AshenCrow777]

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link." — Midna (Twilight Princess)


"The Sols were like the suns that illuminate this world." — Midna (Twilight Princess)


"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world... It is pure power." — Midna (Twilight Princess)

The word "Sol" originates from the Latin word for the Sun.

Nintendo knew what they were doing

Sol's are literally Suns contained in small spheres and Midna even says it is pure power, and it's the equivalent of Link's light world sun.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Neutral on Vaati, against everything else.

We have no proof of Demise predating the Zelda universe, since the statement about one of the bosses (not even Demise itself) about them predating time may very well be hyperbolic.

There's actually a statement that it was from Fi about Demise it was posted in The last thread.

 

[Dust_Collector]

None of that proves that Sol's are literal suns, the fact that they're small spheres and are only described as like the sun in the way that they illumate the world like the sun does in the Light World doesn't mean they're an exact equivalent of an actual fully fledged sun. Holding the essence of Din means nothing in regards to scaling above Hylia, unless the ToP has all her essence and was equal to Din then how does something vauge like holding her essence mean it scales above Hylia? You need something much more concrete than that, singular statements where no characters are even compared to each other is no grounds for definitive scaling. Ignoring the currently changing standards of timeless voids and whatnot for now, isn't the only thing Fi says about Demise is that he "conquered time"? Not really grounds for Infinite speed without the proper feats to back it up.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Why are you bringing up the Demise stuff anyways all I even said in the last thread it couldn't be used for anything so I don't see why you are talking about infinite speed or whatnot.


The fact that Midna says the Sol are the source of life in their world and that's what powers their entire realm and make sure they exist AND also clearly stats that they are similar to Link's suns says a lot.

Also for TFP1.

"Shadow Link

Demons identical to Link that are born of the Dark Mirror and possess the power of darkness. The resentment and evil thoughts of the defeated Ganondorf travel across time and space, emerging as shadows in the shape of the Hero. The ones that appear in the Elemental Sanctuary set a trap aimed at getting Link to break Ganondorf's seal." (Hyrule Historia (Dark Horse Books) pg. 119)

Shadow Links clearly have mid godly even the complete destruction of their bodies and souls with only his (Ganondorf) hate and resentment he can pop new ones in existence.

https://youtu.be/5aX085KiTV0?list=PLQ-nEMx5LgUnj9iWhtKmRETyUwVwKAbsF&t=1405

Link literally destroys them to the point that their completely gone and they keep coming back.

Also Dust "Holding the essence of Din means nothing in regards to scaling above Hylia, unless the ToP has all her essence and was equal to Din then how does something vauge like holding her essence mean it scales above Hylia?"

so hylia > din now

The triforce piece of power is always stated to be the strongest piece of all and its clearly above or at least equal to the likes of Hylia.

Also for Vaati we know he created a realm that contains stars and nebulae, absorbed a large portion of the Light Force which has infinite power Zelda's Light force is basically Hylia's Divine energy (its been like that for years even the MS was created via Hylia's light force) and unlocking its full potential makes you as strong as her

Vaati would eventually become stronger (Would of absorbed the entirety of the light force which would of made him unstoppable. Failing to get to him before he does results in an instant game over

 

[AshenCrow777]

TFP1 "He never adapted to those things. He simply breaks free over an extended period of time. The Master Sword thing is simply false." >He breaks free over an extended period of time? Thank you for further proving why it's reactive evolution. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reactive_Evolution "Reactive Evolution is the ability to, in response to threats and adverse situations, adapt to grow better capable of dealing with any given issue; this can mean growing to become more resistant to certain methods of attack and certain abilities, developing new powers to better defend one's self, or just becoming more powerful to become an even greater threat."

The Master Sword stuff isn't false, objectively. The Master Sword is meant to be the very blade that perm kills Ganon yet in various fights it only seals him or just harms him and Link needs to use other weapons like the silver arrows to permanently finish him off.

"I'm assuming you're talking about FSA!Shadow Link. I don't know much about it, but creating a being with Mid-Godly (assuming it's legit) still wouldn't give Ganon Mid-Godly" >He creates a being from his pure hatred that has a Regenerationn, he should logically have it. He's already shown casual low godly regen feats too so nothing debunks this.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Dust collector

"None of that proves that Sol's are literal suns, the fact that they're small spheres and are only described as like the sun in the way that they illumate the world like the sun does in the Light World doesn't mean they're an exact equivalent of an actual fully fledged sun."

>Except one of the direct quotes directly states it to being the sun of the light world, Midna is clearly referring to this in reference of power, there being small sphere sols is irrelevant when we've already seen a sun sized sol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ2Hvs4KgZM&feature=youtu.be&t=3807

Just to be sure TP1 "Holding the essence of Din means nothing in regards to scaling above Hylia, unless the ToP has all her essence and was equal to Din then how does something vauge like holding her essence mean it scales above Hylia?"

>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/essence "the most significant element, quality, or aspect of a thing or person" "the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence"

Essence is consistently labeled as something of power and in the very scene where they're talking about the triforce and label it as the essences of the golden goddesses they're referring to it's power, to even remotely argue that somehow Hylia is > Din when Din is uncountably infinites above Hylia is non-sensical and shows a lack of understanding of the scaling on your side.

"You need something much more concrete than that, singular statements where no characters are even compared to each other is no grounds for definitive scaling."

>No, I really don't when common sense and basic problem solving can be applied. The narrative that everything needs a bajillion different links when a single sentence can be inferred pretty simply is pretty counter-intiuitive.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I brought up the Demise stuff because you mentioned him apparently predating the Zelda multiverse in your first post and then you mentioned the statement Fi made about him tgat you brought up on the last thread. Being called the source of life means nothing other than providing life, I don't see anything about them powering the entire realm, just that they all collectively light the realm, and Midna saying that they're like the sun in the normal world is clearly just referring to what they do (Provide light) rather than them being legitmate suns on par with the real one. How does one Sol being fully sun sized make the fact that the rest of them being tiny as hell irrelevant? One exception doesn't suddenly make all the smaller ones real stars that make warping the realm 4-A, feats like that aren't 4-A simply because of several stars but because of the large amount of space between thoses stars.


Ashen you know for a fact that I wasn't implying that Hylia>Din, if you fully read what I wrote properly you would have noticed I said we can't scale it above unless we assume it has all of Dins essence or is proven to have enough of it to safely scale above Hylia, it having a portion of Dins essence doesn't mean it's automatically above her unless you can prove for sure the ammount of power she put into the magic triangle is more power than what Hylia has, unless you wanna argue and prove it has all of Dins essence and therefore power. If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the amount of Dins essence in the ToP is beyond Hylia then I'm all ears. Also tone down the disrespectful tone, not a fan of you spitting off bullshit like "Shows a lack of understanding of the scaling on your side" over a disagreement stemming from you not bothering to read my comment properly, I want concrete evidence to prove your scaling, not wishy washy statements that ultimately don't mean anything without further elaboration. The evidence you provided for Mid-Godly is also very lackluster, the Shadow Links go poof before coming back and that's supposed to be hard proof that they're being erased entirely from existence? Where's the proof that they're legitimately getting erased from existence?

Nothing you posted about the Master Sword has me convinced, it consistently fails to kill Ganondorf even as far back as Ocarina of Time therefore that means he adapted to it? Seems more like the Master Sword just isn't 100% perfect at killing demons, especially demons who can regenerate as long as their soul isn't destroyed. Gonna need much more solid proof for this.

 

[AshenCrow777]

First of all, I find it funny that you would bring something completely unrelated as the genie thread here. its almost laughable what's the point to bring something that happened 3/4 months to a thread that is again unrelated to that event?

Stay focus on the topic at hand plz thank you.


Also a friend is helping me forward all of this just like the post above.


"Being called the source of life means nothing other than providing life, I don't see anything about them powering the entire realm, just that they all collectively light the realm, and Midna saying that they're like the sun in the normal world is clearly just referring to what they do (Provide light) rather than them being legitmate suns on par with the real one."

>A source of life providing life is literally helping power a realm because if they cannot live in said realm how would they have life? No, they're legitimate suns, I literally even showed you a scan of them having a sun sized sol.

"How does one Sol being fully sun sized make the fact that the rest of them being tiny as hell irrelevant?"

>Firstly format this sentence better, I legitimately could not even tell what you were asking until I read it 5 times. Secondly, because not only are sols never distinguished as being powered differently, but there's already a clear shown sign that one sol is equal to a sun, assuming that one single sol is the only one that's equal to that is such an extraordinary claim that it'd require extraordinary evidence.

"One exception doesn't suddenly make all the smaller ones real stars that make warping the realm 4-A, feats like that aren't 4-A simply because of several stars but because of the large amount of space between thoses stars."

>Except that the realm itself is literally consistently portrayed as opposite to the light, why would this only apply to the planet when it's shown as far as how their celestial bodies function? I'm also aware you guys do the same thing for sacred realm, i don't really care, that's wrong irregardless.

"Ashen you know for a fact that I wasn't implying that Hylia>Din, if you fully read what I wrote properly you would have noticed I said we can't scale it above unless we assume it has all of Dins essence or is proven to have enough of it to safely scale above Hylia," >Then you just claimed she's above Din or else you would be fine with it going above Hylia. Seems like you don't get what you're saying more or less. Also ashen didn't even say that lol.

" it having a portion of Dins essence" >Can you show the scan where it EVER says a portion of Din's essence? inb4 the mistranslation that's literally been shown several times to be a mistranslation It directly states here it contains the essence of the gods, not a "portion": https://youtu.be/FX8YkcOeOfQ?t=451

So already your very premise is incorrect, let's see what the conclusion leads to.

"doesn't mean it's automatically above her unless you can prove for sure the ammount of power she put into the magic triangle is more power than what Hylia has, unless you wanna argue and prove it has all of Dins essence and therefore power."

>So since we just can't follow common sense anymore, explain to me why triforce pieces consistently stated to give you the POWER OF THE GODS, would be weaker then Hylia? The assumption that a low 2-C's power would suddenly give uncountably infinite less power then someone uncountably infinite sets below them is just baffling.

"If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the amount of Dins essence in the ToP is beyond Hylia then I'm all ears. Also tone down the disrespectful tone, not a fan of you spitting off bullshit like "Shows a lack of understanding of the scaling on your side""

>Except that's not disrespect, as that would be lack of respect to another target, what I said was that you showed a lack of understanding in something, in which you did. Thus I corrected it, disrespectful would of been straight up calling you an idiot or any other bad names.

"Ashen you know for a fact that I wasn't implying that Hylia>Din, if you fully read what I wrote properly you would have noticed I said we can't scale it above unless we assume it has all of Dins essence or is proven to have enough of it to safely scale above Hylia,"

>Then you just claimed she's above Din or else you would be fine with it going above Hylia. Seems like you don't get what you're saying more or less. Also I didn't even say that lol.


"over a disagreement stemming from you not bothering to read my comment properly (And from what I remember you have a habit of getting hot headed like in that Genie thread),"

>No I read your comment completely correctly, it did not change your premise, even if you claim that's not what you're trying to say I hope you know these exists unconscious implications. Also trying to bring up another thread that's not relevant to this one is pretty irrelevant to the subject matter.

"I want concrete evidence to prove your scaling, not wishy washy statements that ultimately don't mean anything without further elaboration."

>Except it's not wishy washy objectively. It's not the fault of the party that you refuse the clear as day narrative being shown.

"The evidence you provided for Mid-Godly is also very lackluster, the Shadow Links go poof before coming back and that's supposed to be hard proof that they're being erased entirely from existence? Where's the proof that they're legitimately getting erased from existence?"

>The fact that they're completely destroyed and a completely new body is made after that. Occam's razor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

"Nothing you posted about the Master Sword has me convinced,"

>I don't remember trying to convince you so I don't know why that's very relevant. I could care less what convinces you or not I'm delivering the following refutes because of what I viewed you said is wrong.

"it consistently fails to kill Ganondorf even as far back as Ocarina of Time therefore that means he adapted to it?"

>It consistently fails to not only kill him but even when it has at times sealed him, in later battles it can no longer seal him. Don't really see why this is difficult.

"Seems more like the Master Sword just isn't 100% perfect at killing demons, especially demons who can regenerate as long as their soul isn't destroyed. Gonna need much more solid proof for this."

>Except the master sword as shown can negate Regenerationn, absorb ones soul into it's sword (as it's done with Demise) and more, yet it can't do these things to Ganondorf. I'm going to need proof against this other then a simple "seems" because that's quite honestly terrid as a refute.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Now please provide scans that would disapprove any of this.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Also on a side note this is the reasoning of 2-B goddesses.

"When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina."


It comes from the official Nintendo website that took care of the Zelda universe before HH (or time line iirc) even existed it dates back to the 2000s Era up to 2005 or something (it also have the official Nintendo logo and license and it is also considered official by ESRB) this qualify enough for 2-B.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Also no it was never ret on or anything even after HH was done it seems to have reused info on that website.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I only brougt up the Genie thread because I don't want this to turn out like that thread, you ended up getting reported for your attitude there and I really don't want that to happen again. Obviously you're not acting all that bad in this thread, but some of your comments and general tone are slightly vearing into unnessercary snark and rudeness.

Can you show the scan where it EVER says a portion of Din's essence? inb4 the mistranslation that's literally been shown several times to be a mistranslation It directly states here it contains the essence of the gods, not a "portion"

If you read what I said you would notice my sole point wasn't that it only held a portion. The point is that ulitmately the statement of having dins essence is kinda worthless here. Is it all her essence therefore making the ToP Low Multiversal? Is it a portion of her essence less or greater than Hylia? We need more than having the essence of something before making massive changes like this.

So since we just can't follow common sense anymore, explain to me why triforce pieces consistently stated to give you the POWER OF THE GODS, would be weaker then Hylia? The assumption that a low 2-C's power would suddenly give uncountably infinite less power then someone uncountably infinite sets below them is just baffling.

"So since we just can't follow common sense anymore". No need to be condescending. Power of the Gods, much like the essence stuff, means nothing by itself. Do we assume that because it just says power of the gods instead of a portion of the gods power that the individual pieces scale to the Low Multiversal Goddesses? Do they say Power of the Gods as reference to it being made by, and being a symbol of, the Goddesses power? Who knows because they don't go into enough detail. Also who's Low 2-C power are you talking about? Unless you meant to put 2-C in reference to Din. Which begs the question, why are you simply arguing for 4-A via scaling to Hylia? You argue that the ToP has to scale since it has the essence of Din and the is said to have the power of the gods, and you clearly don't think it only has a portion of her power since you've argued against that, so wouldn't that mean that you're really arguing ToP just straight up scales to Din?

Except that's not disrespect, as that would be lack of respect to another target, what I said was that you showed a lack of understanding in something, in which you did. Thus I corrected it, disrespectful would of been straight up calling you an idiot or any other bad names.

So claiming I have a lack of understanding of the scaling just because I didn't agree with you isn't even slightly disrespectful? I know you're not doing it on purpose, but try to use a bit more tact when saying these things.

Then you just claimed she's above Din or else you would be fine with it going above Hylia. Seems like you don't get what you're saying more or less. Also I didn't even say that lol.

Legit don't get what you're saying here. So because I said the ToP can't scale above Hylia unless it had all of Dins essence or at least a proven amount of it thats above Hylia means that I think Hylia>Din? All I said was that there wasn't a definitive amount of proof that the amount of Dins essence in the ToP is superior to Hylia unless it was all of her essence or a portion of it that was beyond a shadow of a doubt superior to Hylia.

No I read your comment completely correctly, it did not change your premise, even if you claim that's not what you're trying to say I hope you know these exists unconscious implications. Also trying to bring up another thread that's not relevant to this one is pretty irrelevant to the subject matter.

You really didn't read it correctly if you got Hylia>Din out of it. There were no unconscious implications, my first comment said that something vauge like essence of Din doesn't automatically scale the ToP above, and both times I said that it wouldn't scale unless it had all her essence (Meaning if it had all her essence it would be above Hylia. Like I said earlier in this comment, it's nothing personal nor an attempt to discredit your arguments, it's just that things got really dicey in the Genie thread and I don't want a repeat of that and don't want you possibly getting so worked up to the point of some users reporting you. I'm just being very cautious and want to keep this thread super chill.

Except it's not wishy washy objectively. It's not the fault of the party that you refuse the clear as day narrative being shown.

You can say it's not wishy washy objectively, I can say it is in fact objectively wishy washy. All it comes down to is what arguments the majority believe more, in the end none of this is objective. I want explict comparisons, more concrete statements, more than just essence of Din and Power of the Gods, give me really solid proof that they mean what you're claiming they mean.

The fact that they're completely destroyed and a completely new body is made after that. Occam's razor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Them being erased entirely from existence is not the simplest explanation. Low-Godly is enough to recover from having your body completely destroyed, hell even Low-High regen covers having no solid body parts remaining. We don't just hand out Mid-Godly for the body going poof, we offer it if there's proof of them no longer existing.

It consistently fails to not only kill him but even when it has at times sealed him, in later battles it can no longer seal him. Don't really see why this is difficult.

It has never sealed him. The sages sealed him in OOT after the Master Sword weakened him, the Goddesses sealed him prior to WW with the Master Sword only keeping his demons sealed, he got petrified but not sealed by the Master Sword at the end of WW, it doesn't seal him in ALTTP, nor does it seal Yuga-Ganon in ALBW, and it doesn't seal him in BOTW. Can't really adapt to the Master Swords sealing when it never seals you in the first place, but I suppose a Resistance to Sealing seems fine since he's been constantly unaffected by it from the start.

Except the master sword as shown can negate Regenerationn, absorb ones soul into it's sword (as it's done with Demise) and more, yet it can't do these things to Ganondorf. I'm going to need proof against this other then a simple "seems" because that's quite honestly terrid as a refute.

"Terrid as a refute", well I did kinda have to rush that one since my bath was ready lol. Anyway Considering that all of thoses things never affected Ganondorf in the first place this seems less like Reactive Evolution and more like he just resists all thoses things, which would serve as nice additions to his already existing resistances.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also on a side note this is the reasoning of 2-B goddesses.
"When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina."


It comes from the official Nintendo website that took care of the Zelda universe before HH (or time line iirc) even existed it dates back to the 2000s Era up to 2005 or something (it also have the official Nintendo logo and license and it is also considered official by ESRB) this qualify enough for 2-B.

Yeah I recall hearing about this a few times, is there a way to get the website up on the Wayback Machine or something?

 

[AshenCrow777]

Yeah I recall hearing about this a few times, is there a way to get the website up on the Wayback Machine or something?

Here's the site https://web.archive.org/web/20050313071857/http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/t.jsp and you can skip to Termina for the description.

 

[AshenCrow777]

This is a reply from my friend.

"If you read what I said you would notice my sole point wasn't that it only held a portion. The point is that ulitmately the statement of having dins essence is kinda worthless here. Is it all her essence therefore making the ToP Low Multiversal? Is it a portion of her essence less or greater than Hylia? We need more than having the essence of something before making massive changes like this."

>Never claimed that was your sole point, but it was a major point to your argument. No, it's objectively not worthless, and I don't see a problem with that, I'm aware the wiki does but I really don't care if the wiki has that as Low Multiversal or not, fact of the matter is I showed you the definition of what essence follows and how the scene points towards it clearly referring to power. We don't really need more then that, it's just that you don't want to accept Low Multiversal ToP, which is understandable, but it doesn't debunk what's clearly there.

(AshenCrow777 speaking here thats why I'm saying it should be 4-A. AshenCrow777 out)

"No need to be condescending. Power of the Gods, much like the essence stuff, means nothing by itself." >I'm being condescending since we're apparently no longer accepting what words directly proclaim. Power of the Gods means much by itself, and it's clear what it means.

" Do we assume that because it just says power of the gods instead of a portion of the gods power that the individual pieces scale to the Low Multiversal Goddesses? Do they say Power of the Gods as reference to it being made by, and being a symbol of, the Goddesses power? Who knows because they don't go into enough detail."

>They do not need to go into detail for common sense yet again. We don't need to go into all of these lines of thinking when it's pretty clear what power in essence is by anyone. Go up to literally anyone and ask them if they think power refers to strength and they will say "yes". It literally never mentions it's a portion, yet again so there'd be no reason to assume that. Your second question doesn't even make feasible sense. If it's a symbol of their power why would it ever amp any character in the series, you can't say it amps them then just say "oh it's a symbol, not referring to power" that's nonsensical. It's clear what it does.

"Also who's Low 2-C power are you talking about? Unless you meant to put 2-C in reference to Din. Which begs the question, why are you simply arguing for 4-A via scaling to Hylia? You argue that the ToP has to scale since it has the essence of Din and the is said to have the power of the gods, and you clearly don't think it only has a portion of her power since you've argued against that, so wouldn't that mean that you're really arguing ToP just straight up scales to Din?"

>I'm not arguing 4-A, that's what this thread is arguing, I was arguing against your claim of Din's essence not scaling above Hylia because that's nonsensical.

 

[AshenCrow777]

this is from them again. (we're on discord)

"I only brougt up the Genie thread because I don't want this to turn out like that thread, you ended up getting reported for your attitude there and I really don't want that to happen again. Obviously you're not acting all that bad in this thread, but some of your comments and general tone are slightly vearing into unnessercary snark and rudeness."

>So firstly you admit that the person isn't acting all bad in the thread but then try to say "well i only brought up this thread cause i didn't want it to turn out like this thread"(despite the way you claimed it not seeming that way at all), dunno whether to consider this a tactic to get out of that scenario or just saving face, don't care either way honestly.

"So claiming I have a lack of understanding of the scaling just because I didn't agree with you isn't even slightly disrespectful? I know you're not doing it on purpose, but try to use a bit more tact when saying these things."

>No, it's really not disrespectful. Especially since I said you showed a lack of understanding, not that you have.

Direct quote, "to even remotely argue that somehow Hylia is > Din when Din is uncountably infinites above Hylia is non-sensical and shows a lack of understanding of the scaling on your side."

If anything you seem very thin-skinned rn more then anything. This isn't even in the leagues of disrespectful comments, if people can't even get a bit non-nice on comments with you I don't think non-safe space internet forums are a place you should go to. I know you're going to say you wasn't offended by it or whatever but it really seems like you were. Anyways like I said in previous comment, this entire part is irrelevant so I'm dropping it from this comment on.

"Legit don't get what you're saying here. So because I said the ToP can't scale above Hylia unless it had all of Dins essence or at least a proven amount of it thats above Hylia means that I think Hylia>Din? All I said was that there wasn't a definitive amount of proof that the amount of Dins essence in the ToP is superior to Hylia unless it was all of her essence or a portion of it that was beyond a shadow of a doubt superior to Hylia."

>Literally 1% of Din's power would be > Hylia. So collectively you're saying Hylia is > Din. Even if it's not 100% Din, especially going with the way how you interpret even when a portion isn't mentioned that it's automatically a portion, I can apply the same thing here. Saying Hylia is > Din in any fashion is nonsensical even > 1% of Din's power.

"You really didn't read it correctly if you got Hylia>Din out of it. There were no unconscious implications, my first comment said that something vauge like essence of Din doesn't automatically scale the ToP above, and both times I said that it wouldn't scale unless it had all her essence (Meaning if it had all her essence it would be above Hylia. Like I said earlier in this comment, it's nothing personal nor an attempt to discredit your arguments, it's just that things got really dicey in the Genie thread and I don't want a repeat of that and don't want you possibly getting so worked up to the point of some users reporting you. I'm just being very cautious and want to keep this thread super chill."

>No, there was unconcious implication, you denying it conciously doesn't at all show there wasn't any there, the fact that you even implied Din's power can't scale above hylia's cause it wasn't fully elaborated on how much shows you were arguing Hylia > Din because Din would need to be 100% to even scale above her. If you want to keep the thread super chill you could not react so greatly to comments that aren't remotely bad.

"You can say it's not wishy washy objectively, I can say it is in fact objectively wishy washy. All it comes down to is what arguments the majority believe more, in the end none of this is objective. I want explict comparisons, more concrete statements, more than just essence of Din and Power of the Gods, give me really solid proof that they mean what you're claiming they mean."

>Except the problem here is it's objectively not wishy washy as I explained in my comment, your comment didn't, and was refuted. I could care less was ad populum comes down to I'm defending a claim I saw you made that was wrong, but no, this is objective. If you want to claim character stating isn't objective (even though there can be scenarios where it pretty much is) go ahead, but this is an argument on lore points, not on stats, so no this is objective. I already explained why I don't need to provide any of that and why the current evidence is fine, again I really don't care if you disagree with it or not, I've shown why it's objective and why it applies.

"Them being erased entirely from existence is not the simplest explanation. Low-Godly is enough to recover from having your body completely destroyed, hell even Low-High regen covers having no solid body parts remaining. We don't just hand out Mid-Godly for the body going poof, we offer it if there's proof of them no longer existing."

>Here's the problem though, they don't have a soul or a concious, so they're not coming back from any of that, they're re-creating their body from nothing, and the problem with Low-High is if it was Low-High they wouldn't make a new body out of nothing and just regnerate from where they died.

 

[AshenCrow777]

"It has never sealed him. The sages sealed him in OOT after the Master Sword weakened him, the Goddesses sealed him prior to WW with the Master Sword only keeping his demons sealed, he got petrified but not sealed by the Master Sword at the end of WW, it doesn't seal him in ALTTP, nor does it seal Yuga-Ganon in ALBW, and it doesn't seal him in BOTW. Can't really adapt to the Master Swords sealing when it never seals you in the first place, but I suppose a Resistance to Sealing seems fine since he's been constantly unaffected by it from the start."

>Direct quotes: "By the way, boy... When you drew that sword of yours out of its pedestal... Did you by chance notice how all the monsters frozen in time down there suddenly began stirring again? Do you understand precisely what that means? ...I highly doubt you do. Foolish child. While that sword is indeed the blade of evil's bane, at the same time, it has long played another role... You see, it is also a sort of key... a most wretched little key that has kept the seal on me and my magic intact! By withdrawing the blade, you have broken that seal..." — Ganondorf (The Wind Waker)

""I have confirmed the eradication of the demon king. His residual consciousness has been absorbed into the Master Sword...and is now sealed away." — Fi (Skyward Sword)" https://youtu.be/875DDUC8gmU?t=187

"And when the sword that seals the darkness delivers his final blow..."

"The legendary sword that seals the darkness. Its blade gleams with a sacred luster that can oppose the Calamity. Only a hero chosen by the sword itself may wield it."

"They do indeed... If I recall correctly, it was called the sword that seals the darkness." — Riju (Breath of the Wild)

There's so many times it's claimed to seal and has sealed Ganon in battle that it's non-sensical to claim it hasn't. Ganon is literally a weaker off-shoot of Demise too so this should just double. But yes it doesn't seal him in other games, my point exactly.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Never claimed that was your sole point, but it was a major point to your argument. No, it's objectively not worthless, and I don't see a problem with that, I'm aware the wiki does but I really don't care if the wiki has that as Low Multiversal or not, fact of the matter is I showed you the definition of what essence follows and how the scene points towards it clearly referring to power. We don't really need more then that, it's just that you don't want to accept Low Multiversal ToP, which is understandable, but it doesn't debunk what's clearly there.

If you know it wasn't my sole point, why focus so much on it and less on everything else? I know that essence is referring to power here, doesn't mean anything unless we all decide that ToP Ganon is straight up on par with Din, and given how his own feats alongside a lack of more direct statements I doubt this to be the case.

They do not need to go into detail for common sense yet again. We don't need to go into all of these lines of thinking when it's pretty clear what power in essence is by anyone. Go up to literally anyone and ask them if they think power refers to strength and they will say "yes". It literally never mentions it's a portion, yet again so there'd be no reason to assume that. Your second question doesn't even make feasible sense. If it's a symbol of their power why would it ever amp any character in the series, you can't say it amps them then just say "oh it's a symbol, not referring to power" that's nonsensical. It's clear what it does.

When did I deny that power wasn't referring to strength? All I said Power of the Gods by itself doesn't mean much in terms of scaling just by itself. Like yeah the ToP makes people much stronger, but Ganondorf with it has displayed a lack of feats putting him at 2-C and there's not any statements that directly compare him or the ToP to Dins full power. I mentioned it being a symbol of their power because that's what the original Japanese manual of ALTTP calls it.

If anything you seem very thin-skinned rn more then anything. This isn't even in the leagues of disrespectful comments, if people can't even get a bit non-nice on comments with you I don't think non-safe space internet forums are a place you should go to. I know you're going to say you wasn't offended by it or whatever but it really seems like you were. Anyways like I said in previous comment, this entire part is irrelevant so I'm dropping it from this comment on.

The comments I made where more pertaining to you having thin skin (Like really losing your shit over being called an asshole to the point of getting reported for it) and not wanting that to happen again since you started off relatively chill there too. Just because I don't like some non-nice comments from people I barely know doesn't mean I can't handle it, just not a fan of you saying shit like this and saying I just wanna have a chill convo about something that isn't even remotely serious without unessacary jabs over the strength of genetic evil wizards or gods.

Literally 1% of Din's power would be > Hylia. So collectively you're saying Hylia is > Din. Even if it's not 100% Din, especially going with the way how you interpret even when a portion isn't mentioned that it's automatically a portion, I can apply the same thing here. Saying Hylia is > Din in any fashion is nonsensical even > 1% of Din's power.

I never said it's automatically a portion, just that we don't know how much of her power is in it (All of it, some of it, half a pint of it) just from it having her essence and no further explanation.

No, there was unconcious implication, you denying it conciously doesn't at all show there wasn't any there, the fact that you even implied Din's power can't scale above hylia's cause it wasn't fully elaborated on how much shows you were arguing Hylia > Din because Din would need to be 100% to even scale above her. If you want to keep the thread super chill you could not react so greatly to comments that aren't remotely bad.

There was no unconscious implication of Hylia>Din, you even noticed that I said Dins full power is above Hylia so what unconscious implication did I make? So because I said that the ToP can't scale above Hylia because it wasn't elaborated how much of her essence was put in, means that I was implying Hylia is stronger than Din? I even said that that unless ot has her full power or a proven statement that it was a portion above Hylias power then it'd fine. The most you'd get from my supposed unconscious implication is Hylia>Unspecified fraction of Din. React so greatly? I made quick comments that were basically "Hey try not to so that" in response to saying I'm showing a lack of scaling and the condescending tone of your comments about how we can't use common sense since I don't view certain statements as concrete.

Except the problem here is it's objectively not wishy washy as I explained in my comment, your comment didn't, and was refuted. I could care less was ad populum comes down to I'm defending a claim I saw you made that was wrong, but no, this is objective. If you want to claim character stating isn't objective (even though there can be scenarios where it pretty much is) go ahead, but this is an argument on lore points, not on stats, so no this is objective. I already explained why I don't need to provide any of that and why the current evidence is fine, again I really don't care if you disagree with it or not, I've shown why it's objective and why it applies.

I know you could care less about ad populum, my point is that neither of us are making objective claims since people can come in and say your interpretation of how strong the ToP should be is right or mine is right which ultimately determines what goes through on the profiles of this CRT, ultimately making claims of the evidence for either side being objective pointless. I'm also not satisfied with your rebuttals, as far as I'm concerned you haven't really made the statements any more clear in regards to scaling, although I can't go into much more detail since I'm about to head into work and barely have enough time for the resi of this comment.

Here's the problem though, they don't have a soul or a concious, so they're not coming back from any of that, they're re-creating their body from nothing, and the problem with Low-High is if it was Low-High they wouldn't make a new body out of nothing and just regnerate from where they died.

Can you post scans of them bit having a soul or concious. Mid-Godly requires really significant evidence and that one clip indicates nothing about having their bodys being completely erased.

Direct quotes: "By the way, boy... When you drew that sword of yours out of its pedestal... Did you by chance notice how all the monsters frozen in time down there suddenly began stirring again? Do you understand precisely what that means? ...I highly doubt you do. Foolish child. While that sword is indeed the blade of evil's bane, at the same time, it has long played another role... You see, it is also a sort of key... a most wretched little key that has kept the seal on me and my magic intact! By withdrawing the blade, you have broken that seal..." — Ganondorf (The Wind Waker)

Of course the website with all those japanese translations isn't working so I can't link it, but the orignal japanese text only has Ganon saying the seal was keeping his demon army trapped, nothing about a seal on his power is mentioned in the orignal text. Really needed the website for some power additions I wanna make for Ganondorf >_<.

""I have confirmed the eradication of the demon king. His residual consciousness has been absorbed into the Master Sword...and is now sealed away." — Fi (Skyward Sword)" https://youtu.be/875DDUC8gmU?t=187

Demise being unable to resist being sealed doesn't have anything to do with Ganondorf (Being an off shoot of Demise doesn't mean anything other than, well, that he's an off shoot) it's just the Master Sword showing sealing.

And when the sword that seals the darkness delivers his final blow..."

"The legendary sword that seals the darkness. Its blade gleams with a sacred luster that can oppose the Calamity. Only a hero chosen by the sword itself may wield it."

"They do indeed... If I recall correctly, it was called the sword that seals the darkness." — Riju (Breath of the Wild)

There's so many times it's claimed to seal and has sealed Ganon in battle that it's non-sensical to claim it hasn't. Ganon is literally a weaker off-shoot of Demise too so this should just double. But yes it doesn't seal him in other games, my point exactly.

Yeah a lot of statements about it being able to seal but not really any actual showings of it sealing Ganondorf. Should probably give him resistance to sealing (And in Calamitys case add more justification for his already existing resistance) rather than Reactive Evolution. Ganon being an weaker off shoot of Demise doesn't really mean much in regards to the sealing stuff, just that he's weaker but has consistently shown a resistance Demise didn't have. So I'm totally on board for adding a new resistance but not seeing any adaptation

 

[Konaguna]

Im in for mid godly and minor RE, neutral on everything else

 

[AshenCrow777]

Probably Last reply from my friend and I (also on a side note theres no reason for 4-A vaati to not be a thing, since he literaly uses Zeldas light force at its full potential (Hylia's divine power)to do his feat...by saying its an outlier its also admiting that hylia isnt 4-A)


"If you know it wasn't my sole point, why focus so much on it and less on everything else? I know that essence is referring to power here, doesn't mean anything unless we all decide that ToP Ganon is straight up on par with Din, and given how his own feats alongside a lack of more direct statements I doubt this to be the case."

>Cause it was a major supporting point that was straight up false that you kept trying to push. If you accept it's referring to power then it would be referring to strength in itself, power correlates as strength in Zelda. A lot of his feats actually are around her level, you guys just seem to label them as outliers or not know them. "When did I deny that power wasn't referring to strength? All I said Power of the Gods by itself doesn't mean much in terms of scaling just by itself. Like yeah the ToP makes people much stronger, but Ganondorf with it has displayed a lack of feats putting him at 2-C and there's not any statements that directly compare him or the ToP to Dins full power. I mentioned it being a symbol of their power because that's what the original Japanese manual of ALTTP calls it."

>If you accept that it's strength why ever would "Strength of the Gods" not refer to having their strength? Majority of the "lack of feats" Ganon has displayed with ToP has not only been done casually but he does indeed have Low 2-C and 2-C feats, there was even a 2-C feat brought up on a thread that Ganon did that was dismissed cause it was an "outlier".


"I never said it's automatically a portion, just that we don't know how much of her power is in it (All of it, some of it, half a pint of it) just from it having her essence and no further explanation." >I already established how even if we want to go on the low end, even a 1% Din is > Hylia so that would be irrelevant irregardless. You're applying it as a portion by trying to apply ends, that the game has never said. The way they treat the essence of the goddesses and power of the gods is most certainly not a portion or a half pint or they would specifically say that.


"There was no unconscious implication of Hylia>Din, you even noticed that I said Dins full power is above Hylia so what unconscious implication did I make? So because I said that the ToP can't scale above Hylia because it wasn't elaborated how much of her essence was put in, means that I was implying Hylia is stronger than Din? I even said that that unless ot has her full power or a proven statement that it was a portion above Hylias power then it'd fine. The most you'd get from my supposed unconscious implication is Hylia>Unspecified fraction of Din. React so greatly? I made quick comments that were basically "Hey try not to so that" in response to saying I'm showing a lack of scaling and the condescending tone of your comments about how we can't use common sense since I don't view certain statements as concrete."

>You literally just repeated your argument here and presented nothing new. So this is how debating is here. You're literally refusing that a Din amp scales above Hylia cause of a non-sensical possibility that it might be 1% to 10% Din's power and that implication would be you stating that Hylia is


> Din. You denying it was a unconscious implication consciously is surprisingly, not helping your case. I also saw nowhere you'd be fine with it being stated to be a portion. You've literally never said this. Quote from you: "it having a portion of Dins essence doesn't mean it's automatically above her unless you can prove for sure the ammount of power she put into the magic triangle is more power than what Hylia has, unless you wanna argue and prove it has all of Dins essence and therefore power." You only said that they'd need to specifically state Din put in enough power to surpass Hylia, which you even implying Din needs to put in more then 1% of her power to surpass Hylia is completely non-sensical.


"I know you could care less about ad populum, my point is that neither of us are making objective claims since people can come in and say your interpretation of how strong the ToP should be is right or mine is right which ultimately determines what goes through on the profiles of this CRT, ultimately making claims of the evidence for either side being objective pointless. I'm also not satisfied with your rebuttals, as far as I'm concerned you haven't really made the statements any more clear in regards to scaling, although I can't go into much more detail since I'm about to head into work and barely have enough time for the resi of this comment."

>I already explained why they're objective you literally ignored my entire point on why it's objective and decided to repeat yourself ad naseum. I hope you realize people can interpret something objective differently, it's objective that water is a liquid, if someone comes in and interprets it as a non-existent anti-matter does that suddenly make water is a liquid no longer objective? No. It's also not my interpretation it directly follows the game's narrative, your "interpretation" tries to apply things that legitimately can't apply to the following scenes and ignores Zelda lore as a whole. I could also care less if what you're satisfied on, the point was not to satisfy you or put something on a profile it was to refute claims you've made that were straight up non-sensical. If anything your argumentation has been pretty lackluster and occam's razor has pretty much provided more towards my claims since you want to apply outside things like "oh well it could mean symbol" despite the character being amped directly contradicting that.

"Can you post scans of them bit having a soul or concious. Mid-Godly requires really significant evidence and that one clip indicates nothing about having their bodys being completely erased."

>"Demons identical to Link that are born of the Dark Mirror and possess the power of darkness. The resentment and evil thoughts of the defeated Ganondorf travel across time and space, emerging as shadows in the shape of the Hero. The ones that appear in the Elemental Sanctuary set a trap aimed at getting Link to break Ganondorf's seal." "That mirror reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life. It's an item of terrible, dark power. No good can come from this. Shadow Link!! Could he be your evil reflection, cast by the Dark Mirror?"

They are literally created from thoughts and the representation of evil in one's soul. The former would be like I said in my reply, lacks a body and conscious and every-time he's destroyed a completely new body needs to be created. The latter would make him the evil part of soul so him being destroyed is alongside destroying the evil part of the soul so he's regenerating more then just physical destruction.

"Of course the website with all those japanese translations isn't working so I can't link it, but the orignal japanese text only has Ganon saying the seal was keeping his demon army trapped, nothing about a seal on his power is mentioned in the orignal text. Really needed the website for some power additions I wanna make for Ganondorf >_<."

>No, I'm going to need a direct quote for that and a reason why I should believe a random website over the source material. I don't know why you even thought it was acceptable to come in here and say "actually this says something differently" without any evidence to back it up.


"Demise being unable to resist being sealed doesn't have anything to do with Ganondorf (Being an off shoot of Demise doesn't mean anything other than, well, that he's an off shoot) it's just the Master Sword showing sealing."

>He is literally Demise reborn as revenge for his seal so in turn if he's unaffected by the sealing placed on Demise that means he's adapted to it. Being an offshoot means a lot, I don't know why you guys keep using refutes like "being this well means being this" and think that's enough to refute something, that's actually baffling. An offshoot by definition is a branch of a plant already implying offshoot is something apart of the original material, like Ganon is to Demise.

"Yeah a lot of statements about it being able to seal but not really any actual showings of it sealing Ganondorf. Should probably give him resistance to sealing (And in Calamitys case add more justification for his already existing resistance) rather than Reactive Evolution. Ganon being an weaker off shoot of Demise doesn't really mean much in regards to the sealing stuff, just that he's weaker but has consistently shown a resistance Demise didn't have. So I'm totally on board for adding a new resistance but not seeing any adaptation"

>Yes it does mean stuff in regards to sealing, like what? Why would a weaker off-shoot of Demise suddenly have better resistances then him? That's literally non-sensical and completely baffling. The fact that you're even saying "yeah he's weaker but he just resists" just... no.

 

[Konaguna]

this going anywhere?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Not with the forum move. No major revision for any verse is going anywhere for a little while the new forums are getting set up unless a conclusion has already, or almost, been made.

 

[AshenCrow777]

honestly i just need peoples imput on ir a quick yes or no and a small why and the updates wouldnt be that massive

 

[AKM sama]

No comments after April 15 will be saved so it's better to halt the revision until after we move to the new forum.

Read this thread for more info https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4208849