Higher Norse's land cosmology - God of War

Greetings fellow spartan, for the might of lord Kratos i make this upgrade, to show how powerfull our lord are, to bring chaos into the world....



The Grand Cycle of Life

I will begin this with the Grand Cycle. What exactly is that?? The Cycle are a repeatness and motion of all creation in norse. The Cycle that encompasses birth, growth, death, and rebirth of the entire world


The whole world follow this Cycle, from the very beginning to the end. This Cycle not only followed by the "macro" things, but it are the very principle that followed by everything, just as mimir stated that "The Growth" symbolize by fire are the events that ever happen in life like his head getting copped and atteched to kratos' belt. To simply this, "The Fire or The growth" in here are the force of motion that run the "static" world, because in the dawn of creation the world are being "cooled"


The beginning of everything, there was only primordial forces, Fire and Ice in the great void Ginnungagap. The realm or more correct are the space not exist yet. And then come Ymir from the mystic life blood that produced by the met of the primordial Fire and Ice. From Ymir everything comes to existence. This was "The Birth" inside the Cycle and then ragnarok or "The Death" and then "Rebirth" again

Even time not existed. It only existed after Ymir death

The force that created the whole world are Ymir, odin describe him as the force of nature and vessel of power

And Surtr we can say are the force of fire, he hold the primordial force of Fire. He is also in the beginning of everything

These two giant's force are spaceless and timeless and motionless. Because these giants are there before time and space, and the primordial Fire are motion it self

Back to the Cycle, this Cycle are spaceless and timeless because from this Cycle time and space come to existence
This Cycle not only lack of time and space, but far bigger than them, as it stated that surtr the giant that exist before everything before time and space and bring the the Fire into the cosmos are served this Cycle of life that bigger than himself
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOyLs-Jb5_8

- The Grand Cycle of Life are the very principle that the world follow, from the Birth or beginning of world, the Growth, the Death, and Rebirth. Being timeless and spaceless as well being superior to them and the rest of creation



Yggdrasil or The World Tree

The Yggdrasil are the Tree that suport all of creation along its boughs, all things sits in it branches, responsible for create all of creation and the whole world will come back to that tree. Every strands transcending time transcending space

The Tree it self have two form, the physical form and non-physical form or true form. Yggdrasil's true form are encompasses and ever-present in all of norse's land

We know that the Realm Between Realm that accepted as higher dimensional space was just a creation of the Tree's branches, also nothing more than a "small part" of the branch inside the all-encompassing World Tree

All concept such a time, destiny, people, and nature are all branches of the Tree it self. When inside the Tree it self all things cannot be seperated and equal to each other, just as some abstract feeling like love cannot be seperated from some abstract universal concept like fate

And of course, even the Grand Cycle of Life is just a mere part inside the World Tree it self

- Soo the transcending nature of Yggdrasil over all of creation are in literal sense. Transcending time and space (even higher dimensional space) in here are ontologically transcending, for time and space are nothing more than a small part of it existence. Yggdrasil exist as a force that completely independent and superior from time and space and reality, encompassing all concept and rest of creation also ever-present within the whole norse's land



Some counter argument
- "It not transcend time and space in Greek's land"
= Well it not matter at all, it just the problem of range instead ontological. The very nature Yggdrasil already completely independent from time and space, other land's world are not in it range of encompassesment

- "We have seen many creature can affect the World Tree"
= Yes it was right, but it was only the physical form of the Tree, never in the verse show any man or even god affect the non-physical form of Yggdrasil. Let alone affect Yggdrasil, they even cannot affect the Grand Cycle of Life, even one of the strongest being surtr are served this Grand Cycle



Conclusion

The Grand Cycle of Life
Will get low 1A possibly 1A rating. The Cycle are timeless and spaceless for it exist before them and more superior than them. Time and space only a part and creation of the Cycle it self. The Cycle exist as repeatness of everything and force of motion of all of creation

Yggdrasil or The World Tree
Will get 1A rating, BDE 2, and Acausality 5. It true form transcending all of creation including time and space, for even the Grand Cycle are just a part of this tree. Encompassing all of creation that within it everything cannot be seperated and all things are equal, all concept such time, destiny, nature, and people are only the Tree's branches; That suport all of creation along it boughs and all things will comeback to the Tree

I THINK ONLY HOPE AND ASCENDED ATHENA THAT WILL HAVE THE SAME RATING

When i create this thread this morning i dont know the other thread about 1A rating of yggdrasil exist honestly

Neutral, but it seems like enough to agree.

I will be replying later. Or maybe not, ig Ultima will lock this CRT until the other 1-A threads clear up first.

As I said in the prior CRT, though, there's no explanation for everyone being able to severely damage Yggdrasil or travel bingo the RBR. There's like a million anti-feats for 1-A.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:

I will be replying later. Or maybe not, ig Ultima will lock this CRT until the other 1-A threads clear up first.

As I said in the prior CRT, though, there's no explanation for everyone being able to severely damage Yggdrasil or travel bingo the RBR. There's like a million anti-feats for 1-A.

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Fixxed said:

- "We have seen many creature can affect the World Tree"
= Yes it was right, but it was only the physical form of the Tree, never in the verse show any man or even god affect the non-physical form of Yggdrasil. Let alone affect Yggdrasil, they even cannot affect the Grand Cycle of Life, even one of the strongest being surtr are served this Grand Cycle

Click to expand...

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:

I will be replying later. Or maybe not, ig Ultima will lock this CRT until the other 1-A threads clear up first.

As I said in the prior CRT, though, there's no explanation for everyone being able to severely damage Yggdrasil or travel bingo the RBR. There's like a million anti-feats for 1-A.

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It's not even about anti-feats, it's the fact that there is nothing even remotely qualifying for 1-A in the first place.

No one told me today was "Spam as many Tier 1 GoW threads" day!

Will read soon, but you guys need to actual organize together because all these upgrade attempts are so fragmented I can barely pay attention to it all.

CurrySenpai said:

No one told me today was "Spam as many Tier 1 GoW threads" day!

Will read soon, but you guys need to actual organize together because all these upgrade attempts are so fragmented I can barely pay attention to it all.

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Well in fact i dont even know the previous person that made 1A thread was GoW supporter

I think there are no supporter will make this thread, so i make it my self

Gasper said:

It's not even about anti-feats, it's the fact that there is nothing even remotely qualifying for 1-A in the first place.

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This is also my opinion on this thread, reading the OP, but it's whatever.

Queue.

I don't see anything for 1-A, but what about adding more dimensions to the cosmology?

The first problem is that the Grand Cycle, is well, a cycle. Something that has a beginning and a end and repeats them endlessly. It is by definition Temporal, and it how Freya describes it to us,

"it's life energy interwoven into the tapestry of life, birth, growth, death and Rebirth. It's strands transcending time, transcending space"

This isn't however our only mention of it, as we get further information from Mimir.

"to strike the blow that leaves their Realm is ash and ruin! And from that destruction, the world can be born anew. Until then, alone he waits in Musphlhime, never sleeping, ever-honing his fiery blade. Brave, generous Surtr. Who knows he lives but to his doom. All so because he chooses to serve a grand cycle, so much bigger then himself"

From this, we get more context that the word death is used in it's broder terms(destruction) and the cycle encompasses reality and Primordials.

Why I bring this up? Because now we can look at the statement with more understanding.

"it's life energy interwoven into the tapestry of life(as in creation), birth(the start), growth(change), death(destruction) and Rebirth(restart). It's strands transcending time, transcending space"

This showcases to us that the cycle is meant to be a Temporal one that encompasses the world.

Fixxed said:

"We have seen many creature can affect the World Tree"
= Yes it was right, but it was only the physical form of the Tree, never in the verse show any man or even god affect the non-physical form of Yggdrasil. Let alone affect Yggdrasil, they even cannot affect the Grand Cycle of Life, even one of the strongest being surtr are served this Grand Cycle

Click to expand...

Expect that Yggdrasil doesn't really have a Non-Physical form.

It's never really established other then a scan saying the "team brought a Non-Physical object into existence" which suggests it's talking in dev terms, not actual legitimate Lore. Which would debunk this thread entirely given how Yggdrasil's physical form is blatantly temporal.

We'd also have to question what statement is talking about Yggdrasil's Non-Physical form(if it exists) and it's physical form, which makes things pretty complex.

As for Surtr serving it, he choose to serve it. It was a choice he made. Furthermore, being undersomething doesn't necessarily mean you can't affect it, given that characters are usually under time in existence but can still affect it.


Tldr
I disagree.

Eseseso said:

I don't see anything for 1-A, but what about adding more dimensions to the cosmology?

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Pretty sure that topic would be another thread.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

The first problem is that the Grand Cycle, is well, a cycle. Something that has a beginning and a end and repeats them endlessly. It is by definition Temporal, and it how Freya describes it to us,

"it's life energy interwoven into the tapestry of life, birth, growth, death and Rebirth. It's strands transcending time, transcending space"

This isn't however our only mention of it, as we get further information from Mimir.

"to strike the blow that leaves their Realm is ash and ruin! And from that destruction, the world can be born anew. Until then, alone he waits in Musphlhime, never sleeping, ever-honing his fiery blade. Brave, generous Surtr. Who knows he lives but to his doom. All so because he chooses to serve a grand cycle, so much bigger then himself"

From this, we get more context that the word death is used in it's broder terms(destruction) and the cycle encompasses reality and Primordials.

Why I bring this up? Because now we can look at the statement with more understanding.

"it's life energy interwoven into the tapestry of life(as in creation), birth(the start), growth(change), death(destruction) and Rebirth(restart). It's strands transcending time, transcending space"

This showcases to us that the cycle is meant to be a Temporal one that encompasses the world.

Click to expand...

It is time-like but not a "timeline" by normal meaning
Yeah even time it self not even a thing before ymir get killed

The point are this cycle are "time" but transcend the very notion of time

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

Expect that Yggdrasil doesn't really have a Non-Physical form.

It's never really established other then a scan saying the "team brought a Non-Physical object into existence" which suggests it's talking in dev terms, not actual legitimate Lore. Which would debunk this thread entirely given how Yggdrasil's physical form is blatantly temporal.

We'd also have to question what statement is talking about Yggdrasil's Non-Physical form(if it exists) and it's physical form, which makes things pretty complex.

As for Surtr serving it, he choose to serve it. It was a choice he made. Furthermore, being undersomething doesn't necessarily mean you can't affect it, given that characters are usually under time in existence but can still affect it.


Tldr
I disagree.

Click to expand...

It will contradict some other scan

Like this one, the very branches of yggdrasil are time nature and destiny it self, literally the branches are abstract concept, soo it not makes sense if yggdrasil only have physical form

Yggdradil also omnipresent, you cannot being omnipresent and just have physical form

And about surtr, it literally stated "much bigger than himself". The point is not serving, but yggdrasil and the cycle are far superior than surtr himself

Fixxed said:

Even time not existed. It only existed after Ymir death
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/d/d0/GOW_Ragnarok_Cookbook_Page_76.png/revision/latest?cb=20230927035313
The force that created the whole world are Ymir, odin describe him as the force of nature and vessel of power

And Surtr we can say are the force of fire, he hold the primordial force of Fire. He is also in the beginning of everything

These two giant's force are spaceless and timeless and motionless. Because these giants are there before time and space, and the primordial Fire are motion it self

Click to expand...

Odin is the one who killed Ymir and he is fairly clearly a spatial, temporal being, so the logic of "Ymir's death was the beginning of time, and so everything before that is spaceless and timeless" clearly doesn't apply here.

Fixxed said:

The Yggdrasil are the Tree that suport all of creation along its boughs, all things sits in it branches, responsible for create all of creation and the whole world will come back to that tree. Every strands transcending time transcending space

Click to expand...

"Transcending time, transcending space" can just as well be taken to mean that Yggdrasil isn't restricted to any single moment in time or any single point in space. This much already satisfies the statement, so you'd need evidence for a higher-end interpretation, and none of what you provided does the trick.

I also agree with Pepsi up there that the whole distinction between a "non-physical Yggdrasil" and a "physical Yggdrasil" based on that scan seems fake, also.

Ultima_Reality said:

Odin is the one who killed Ymir and he is fairly clearly a spatial, temporal being, so the logic of "Ymir's death was the beginning of time, and so everything before that is spaceless and timeless" clearly doesn't apply here.

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But time it self doesnt exist yet before ymir death, it clearly what the scan stated

Yeah seems not make sense if odin killed ymir. But we cannot just throw away the proof that literally say about it because it seems not make sense

What i mean here before there was time and space ymir and surtr already exist, because there are no time and space it logical to say those two are spaceless and timeless

And i think thats not the point, the point are the cycle it self are timeless and spaceless also superior to them, consider time and realms/space it self are emerge from ymir and ymir are just subject to the cycle it self

Ultima_Reality said:

"Transcending time, transcending space" can just as well be taken to mean that Yggdrasil isn't restricted to any single moment in time or any single point in space. This much already satisfies the statement, so you'd need evidence for a higher-end interpretation, and none of what you provided does the trick.

I also agree with Pepsi up there that the whole distinction between a "non-physical Yggdrasil" and a "physical Yggdrasil" based on that scan seems fake, also.

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Well, but time and space are only product from yggdrasil, the scan say it branches are time it self, when inside yggdrasil everything are same and equal. It literally mean time doesnt have it meaning inside yggdrasil, mean time are inferior thing

Already reply about that

Fixxed said:

Yeah seems not make sense if odin killed ymir. But we cannot just throw away the proof that literally say about it because it seems not make sense

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We can throw it away if it makes no sense whatsoever, yes. More specifically, Odin existing at all (Surt also seems to be very much a spatial being, by the way) just throws your interpretatiom of the text into question.

Fixxed said:

Well, but time and space are only product from yggdrasil, the scan say it branches are time it self, when inside yggdrasil everything are same and equal

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It's just a vague "Nothing can be separated from each other." Not really elaborated upon enough to be anything substantial.

Ultima_Reality said:

Odin is the one who killed Ymir and he is fairly clearly a spatial, temporal being, so the logic of "Ymir's death was the beginning of time, and so everything before that is spaceless and timeless" clearly doesn't apply here.

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I'm a bit confused here. The wiki has a lot of characters who are clearly Spatial and Temporal beings but are born or existed in timeless voids. Why couldn't Odin be like that?

Also, couldn't we just say he was severing under Yggdrasil's higher encompassing time? If need be.

Ultima_Reality said:

We can throw it away if it makes no sense whatsoever, yes. More specifically, Odin existing at all (Surt also seems to be very much a spatial being, by the way) just throws your interpretatiom of the text into question.

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It not plot stupidity, we can say it verse mechanic. But yeah not the point, the point are the cycle are timeless and spaceless

Ultima_Reality said:

It's just a vague "Nothing can be separated from each other." Not really elaborated upon enough to be anything substantial.

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That scan clearly a explanation, when all things are just mere a branches of yggdrasil

Fixxed said:

It is time-like but not a "timeline" by normal meaning
Yeah even time it self not even a thing before ymir get killed

The point are this cycle are "time" but transcend the very notion of time

Click to expand...

That's the highest interpretation. Interpreting it as Yggdrasil's overarching timeline fits better, considering that's based on things we can confirm and see.

It's like Hypertimelines, expect that since we don't have confirmation of different time dimensions we just have an overarching one.

Fixxed said:

It will contradict some other scan

Like this one, the very branches of yggdrasil are time nature and destiny it self, literally the branches are abstract concept, soo it not makes sense if yggdrasil only have physical form

Yggdradil also omnipresent, you cannot being omnipresent and just have physical form

And about surtr, it literally stated "much bigger than himself". The point is not serving, but yggdrasil and the cycle are far superior than surtr himself

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Could be physical tbh. Or just mean that they are a part of Yggdrasil, given we have confirmation of time being a part of it.

Pretty sure being Omnipresent doesn't give someone Incorporeality, but Idk much about the subject tbh.

The same thing could be said about time, or the universe or really anything big. It's bigger then him in existence and that's all we get from it.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

That's the highest interpretation. Interpreting it as Yggdrasil's overarching timeline fits better, considering that's based on things we can confirm and see.

It's like Hypertimelines, expect that since we don't have confirmation of different time dimensions we just have an overarching one.

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The thing is even if this cycle are time-like, but the verse doesnt consider it as a time

Soo i think this is "time" but transcend the time it self

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

Could be physical tbh. Or just mean that they are a part of Yggdrasil, given we have confirmation of time being a part of it.

Pretty sure being Omnipresent doesn't give someone Incorporeality, but Idk much about the subject tbh.

The same thing could be said about time, or the universe or really anything big. It's bigger then him in existence and that's all we get from it.

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You cannot be physical if it literally stated the part of you are abstraction, it just not make sense

You cannot being omnipresent if you only have physical state, omnipresent are being anything not just being everywhere if you oversimplify it

Yeah superior existence

Fixxed said:

he thing is even if this cycle are time-like, but the verse doesnt consider it as a time

Soo i think this is "time" but transcend the time it self

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It does tho. The cycle is part of Yggdrasil and Yggdrasil temporally encompasses the Realms.

Fixxed said:

You cannot be physical if it literally stated the part of you are abstraction, it just not make sense

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Nothing really says it's abstract. It just says that they are all connected and a part of it, which isn't really new with the runes connect all stuff.

Fixxed said:

You cannot being omnipresent if you only have physical state, omnipresent are being anything not just being everywhere if you oversimplify it

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Idk this stuff so I ain't gonna argue about it. Also,

Fixxed said:

Soo i think this is "time" but transcend the time it self

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This is still fulfilled by a overarching timeline.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

It does tho. The cycle is part of Yggdrasil and Yggdrasil temporally encompasses the Realms.

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It just say cycle, we all know time it self born from this cycle. By context, the verse seems make some different between what is time and cycle, even this cycle is time-like

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

Nothing really says it's abstract. It just says that they are all connected and a part of it, which isn't really new with the runes connect all stuff.

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Time and destiny are abstract concept it not have any physical part. The scan literally say it not just connected but those was the branches of yggdrasil. If the branches are abstraction it not make sense if the entire tree are just physical

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

This is still fulfilled by a overarching timeline.

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Yeah lowball of it, i still take the most make sense rating. It literally there when time and space doesnt exist yet

Fixxed said:

It just say cycle, we all know time it self born from this cycle. By context, the verse seems make some different between what is time and cycle, even this cycle is time-like

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And time is a part of Yggdrasil, that's my point.

Fixxed said:

Time and destiny are abstract concept it not have any physical part. The scan literally say it not just connected but those was the branches of yggdrasil. If the branches are abstraction it not make sense if the entire tree are just physical

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They aren't? They are just systems of cause and effects rather then abstract concepts.

Expect it could be talking about how they are a part of the tree, which we can already conclude by how time is a part of it.

Fixxed said:

Yeah lowball of it, i still take the most make sense rating. It literally there when time and space doesnt exist yet

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Agree to disagree.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

And time is a part of Yggdrasil, that's my point

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Yeah thats my point, time and space are only part of yggdrasil, it mean ontologically the entire nature of yggdrasil beyond and superior/bigger not bound by time and space. Thats where 1A come from

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

They aren't? They are just systems of cause and effects rather then abstract concepts.

Expect it could be talking about how they are a part of the tree, which we can already conclude by how time is a part of it.

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It not honestly, even if it is, cause and affect still a abstract non physical thing

Yeah there are small part of the entire tree

Fixxed said:

It not plot stupidity, we can say it verse mechanic. But yeah not the point, the point are the cycle are timeless and spaceless

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Your entire argument for the cycle being aspatial and atemporal is that it predated time. The point is that this clearly isn't the case, because spatial and temporal beings existed before the event that supposedly originated time. That alone crumbles the entire point of this thread.

Fixxed said:

That scan clearly a explanation, when all things are just mere a branches of yggdrasil

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That doesn't really matter.

Ultima_Reality said:

Your entire argument for the cycle being aspatial and atemporal is that it predated time. The point is that this clearly isn't the case, because spatial and temporal beings existed before the event that supposedly originated time. That alone crumbles the entire point of this thread.

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I, still found this part of confusing. Wydm by "spatial and temporal" at this point? And why can't that be the case given how, from my understanding fiction has shown characters who cleary operate under space and time yet shown to be fine in timeless void yet we still consider them to be as such, timeless voids.

For example, Ben 10 where Ben goes to the event of the creation of universe, including time.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

I, still found this part of confusing. Wydm by "spatial and temporal" at this point? And why can't that be the case given how, from my understanding fiction has shown characters who cleary operate under space and time yet shown to be fine in timeless void yet we still consider them to be as such, timeless voids.

For example, Ben 10 where Ben goes to the event of the creation of universe, including time.

Click to expand...

In those cases, the location is already concretely established to have no space and time, and the characters are traveling there through special means. This case is different because we are still in the process of arguing that a certain thing is aspatial and atemporal, and part of that inference is off the idea that it predates all space and all time. The point being made is that it, clearly, doesn't predate all space and all time, because characters who are obviously spatiotemporal in nature (e.g. Odin and Surt) predate the point that's being alleged as the origin of spacetime here.

And I don't think I need to tell you what being a spatial and temporal being means.

Ultima_Reality said:

And I don't think I need to tell you what being a spatial and temporal being means.

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Perhaps, you should.

Ultima_Reality said:

Your entire argument for the cycle being aspatial and atemporal is that it predated time. The point is that this clearly isn't the case, because spatial and temporal beings existed before the event that supposedly originated time. That alone crumbles the entire point of this thread.

Click to expand...

Ultima_Reality said:

In those cases, the location is already concretely established to have no space and time, and the characters are traveling there through special means. This case is different because we are still in the process of arguing that a certain thing is aspatial and atemporal, and part of that inference is off the idea that it predates all space and all time. The point being made is that it, clearly, doesn't predate all space and all time, because characters who are obviously spatiotemporal in nature (e.g. Odin and Surt) predate the point that's being alleged as the origin of spacetime here.

And I don't think I need to tell you what being a spatial and temporal being means.

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The fact are the verse clearly say space and time are not existed yet that time, but somehow that beings when time and space existed are bound to that

I mean this verse give we ginunnagap that are the void it self that lack of anything

But the fact that the two primordial force and the cycle it self are never potrayed as bound to space and time

And dont forget about yggdrasil, i think it clearly show as timeless and spaceless as well as superior/transcend them

Fixxed said:

The fact are the verse clearly say space and time are not existed yet that time, but somehow that beings when time and space existed are bound to that

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All it says was that there were "no realms," so, no mention of any aspatial nature. All you have in that regard is Ymir's death being stated to be the beginning of time, and yet the universal scope that you want to assign to this is blatantly undercut by beings who are clearly spatial and temporal being present before Ymir died. So, yeah, no.

Fixxed said:

And dont forget about yggdrasil, i think it clearly show as timeless and spaceless as well as superior/transcend them

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All Yggdrasil has is a statement about its branches "Transcending time, transcending space."

Ultima_Reality said:

All it says was that there were "no realms," so, no mention of any aspatial nature. All you have in that regard is Ymir's death being stated to be the beginning of time, and yet the universal scope that you want to assign to this is blatantly undercut by beings who are clearly spatial and temporal being present before Ymir died. So, yeah, no.

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Yeah but in the context, realms in here mean space. We literally talking about void before all of creation in here. Well i dont think it is that important, because beings can bound to something after this something are created, but before that they are clearly aspatial and atemporal. I mean we cannot throw away some clear proof

Ultima_Reality said:

All Yggdrasil has is a statement about its branches "Transcending time, transcending space."

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It transcending everything basically. Yeah combine with it nature being aspatial and artemporal because basically everything comes from it and will return to it, that tree are superior to everything, yeah and everything neither it metaphysical or physical are same inside the tree. I think it enough for ontological superiority

Fixxed said:

Yeah but in the context, realms in here mean space.

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Source for that claim.

Fixxed said:

Well i dont think it is that important, because beings can bound to something after this something are created, but before that they are clearly aspatial and atemporal.

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Positing that Odin and Surt were initially spaceless and timeless and afterwards came to be bound by spacetime is just trying to ad hoc away something that poses a contradiction to your argument, seeing as this, to my knowledge, is never mentioned at all, anywhere.

Fixxed said:

Yeah combine with it nature being aspatial and artemporal because basically everything comes from it and will return to it, that tree are superior to everything, yeah and everything neither it metaphysical or physical are same inside the tree. I think it enough for ontological superiority

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The bolded bit is something you're inferring from the above, which is already standing on laughably weak grounds, so, no. The "nothing can be separated from each other" business also doesn't mean anything.

Ultima_Reality said:

In those cases, the location is already concretely established to have no space and time, and the characters are traveling there through special means. This case is different because we are still in the process of arguing that a certain thing is aspatial and atemporal, and part of that inference is off the idea that it predates all space and all time. The point being made is that it, clearly, doesn't predate all space and all time, because characters who are obviously spatiotemporal in nature (e.g. Odin and Surt) predate the point that's being alleged as the origin of spacetime here.

And I don't think I need to tell you what being a spatial and temporal being means.

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Fair enough. Although looking back at the scan, I think it's been misinterpreted.

The scan says this, "some say this traces back to when the two tribes(The Aesir and Vanir) emerged from Ymir's mystic lifeblood- in other words, back when time itself began" This establishes that when the Aesir were born, so did time. And that includes Odin, naturally. I should also note that two realms were created.

As for Surtr, he actually has a Non-Physical form. So I don't think he's a big problem.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

The scan says this, "some say this traces back to when the two tribes(The Aesir and Vanir) emerged from Ymir's mystic lifeblood- in other words, back when time itself began" This establishes that when the Aesir were born, so did time. And that includes Odin, naturally. I should also note that two realms were created.

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Yeah, fair enough. It seems Odin predating time is something that's acknowledged by the profiles and used as justification for abilities (Type 4 Acausality, in this case), so that ought to be changed if this is true.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

As for Surtr, he actually has a Non-Physical form. So I don't think he's a big problem.

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What is said non-physical form like, if I may ask?

Ultima_Reality said:

What is said non-physical form like, if I may ask?

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Nothing really, at best, it looks like the same magical energy that Wisps are made of.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

Nothing really, at best, it looks like the same magical energy that Wisps are made of.

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Yeah, that looks pretty damn spatial, still. Definitely temporal. So, yeah, I don't think this form is a justification for much.

Ultima_Reality said:

Yeah, that looks pretty damn spatial, still. Definitely temporal. So, yeah, I don't think this form is a justification for much.

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Would him being born and made of the stuff Ymir was made of be better then?

Pretty sure being beyond or transcending time and space would need more elaboration for it to be 1-A, as for the timeless stuff, doesn't this just fall under the whole "being outside of a timeline, which doesn't mean transcendent" given how context heavy these feats would need to be? Not really buying this upgrade.

Pepsimanslover_69 said:

Would him being born and made of the stuff Ymir was made of be better then?

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What is the "stuff" in question?

Ultima_Reality said:

What is the "stuff" in question?

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Chaos, Magic, the Primordial force of Fire and Primordial Jotnar Creative Essence.