GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade

Artorimachi_Meteoraft · Sep 8, 2024

“As well as the conjectures of real mathematics, it is like a character that transcends human imagination, so he can scale to any human creation, just like the conjectures”

“Let me give you an example. Several statements and descriptions in a Tier 0 work are cited by another work that is not by the same author, so that another work is upgraded to Tier 0 (but in fact this is not allowed in the Chinese community).”

is this allowed in our community/vsbw

Delta333 · Sep 8, 2024

Weaver261 said:
This is completely wrong becuz yog sothoth's avatar Afrogomon hates people entering her chamber without her permission. But yog sothoth still allow her wisdom and power to those who can reach through the gate. As @LifeRiderthe1 scans provide, Yog Sothoth like humans searching for knowledge.

Entry 5 doesn’t say anything about she grants them the capability to enter her realm tho that’s assumption at best, but I think that’s less the main problem because the problem here is that one cannot exist on the same realm/place as a tier 0, even with a tier 0 grant them that power (this is not same as 1-A).

Ultima_Reality · Sep 8, 2024

Weaver261 said:
This is completely wrong becuz yog sothoth's avatar Afrogomon hates people entering her chamber without her permission. But yog sothoth still allow her wisdom and power to those who can reach through the gate. As @LifeRiderthe1 scans provide, Yog Sothoth like humans searching for knowledge.

Is the realm that she is physically in, the same as Yog-Sothoth's own realm?

Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
“The works they used for upgrading, Tao Te Ching and Diamond Sutra, Cthulhu Mythos and Honkai 2 have nothing to do with each other”

Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
“As well as the conjectures of real mathematics, it is like a character that transcends human imagination, so he can scale to any human creation, just like the conjectures”

“Let me give you an example. Several statements and descriptions in a Tier 0 work are cited by another work that is not by the same author, so that another work is upgraded to Tier 0 (but in fact this is not allowed in the Chinese community).”

is this allowed in our community/vsbw

From what I gather, the relevant excerpts used in this thread are all from the verse itself. Granted, I'd probably like a second translation of them, if possible.

Could you translate the six parts here, if it isn't too much of a bother? Take your time, obviously. @GarrixianXD

Artorimachi_Meteoraft · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Is the realm that she is physically in, the same as Yog-Sothoth's own realm?

From what I gather, the relevant excerpts used in this thread are all from the verse itself. Granted, I'd probably like a second translation of them, if possible.

Could you translate the six parts here, if it isn't too much of a bother? Take your time, obviously. @GarrixianXD

Ultima @EastofEden07 just has some issues with it and was wondering if you could talk to him about it. Not necessarily issues just he finds it weird he best compared it to

“Anyway, Honkai 2 Yog's upgrade method is just as weird as Mark can be upgrade to 2-C because just the author thinks Mark can beat Superman.”

Weaver261 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Is the realm that she is physically in, the same as Yog-Sothoth's own realm?

No....it has never stated that the realm entry 5 described is the realm where Yog sothoth physically exists.

EastofEden07 · Sep 8, 2024

Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
Question Chinese standards of the Chinese vs community say this isn’t allowed because

“The works they used for upgrading, Tao Te Ching and Diamond Sutra, Cthulhu Mythos and Honkai 2 have nothing to do with each other”

Yeah...when I told my other Chinese friends about this Yog's upgrade they all laughed.

Delta333 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Is the realm that she is physically in, the same as Yog-Sothoth's own realm?

The realm in the entry 5 (where people can enter) was never stated to be her avatar realm or true form realm, but considering the fact that it's described as being outside of space-time, it's must refer to the true form. The statement "The Gods who live beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except while attaining it... it may also lose its meaning." which refers to the fact that people can enter this "beyond space-time" realm to get what they want literally is written under "Yog-Sothoth" description section and not "Yog-Sothoth・Between the Blazing Embers" description section that talks about her "Aforgomon" avatar.

Besides I have some doubt about entry 5. If she has tier 0 due to apophatic characteristic then shouldn't it be wrong due to how Yog Sothoth shares this exact kind of apophatic powers to a number of her prayers to possess?

This is how divine power works. Humans get old, their hair grays, but how about the world within words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.

Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.

—This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring it's spirituality.

Now, use it to create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.

By the way, if you have time, praise my Lord, Yog-Sothoth.

I'm well aware that a tier 0 can grant others power, but not the tier 0 apophatic characteristic to transcend all things at all.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 8, 2024

EastofEden07 said:
Yeah...when I told my other Chinese friends about this Yog's upgrade they all laughed.

Cool.

Delta333 said:
The realm in the entry 5 (where people can enter) was never stated to be her avatar realm or true form realm, but considering the fact that it's described as being outside of space-time, it's must refer to the true form. The statement "The Gods who live beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except while attaining it... it may also lose its meaning." which refers to the fact that people can enter this "beyond space-time" realm to get what they want literally is written under "Yog-Sothoth" description section and not "Yog-Sothoth・Between the Blazing Embers" description section that talks about her "Aforgomon" avatar.

Besides I have some doubt about entry 5. If she has tier 0 due to apophatic characteristic then shouldn't it be wrong due to how Yog Sothoth shares this exact kind of apophatic powers to a number of her prayers to possess?

This is how divine power works. Humans get old, their hair grays, but how about the world within words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.

Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.

—This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring it's spirituality.

Now, use it to create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.

By the way, if you have time, praise my Lord, Yog-Sothoth.

I'm well aware that a tier 0 can grant others power, but not the tier 0 apophatic characteristic to transcend all things at all.

I don't think this monologue is saying that Yog-Sothoth is sharing its apophatic nature with the player. The second and third paragraphs seem to indicate that "the power of description" is something that 'God' has bestowed to everyone, that all people unknowingly have but are ignorant of. Unless the verse is saying everyone is apophatic in nature, clearly the interpretation that "You have the power = You are automatically of the same nature as Yog" is incorrect.

Weaver261 · Sep 8, 2024

Are we really ignoring this line?

You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.

Delta333 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Cool.

I don't think this monologue is saying that Yog-Sothoth is sharing its apophatic nature with the player. The second and third paragraphs seem to indicate that "the power of description" is something that 'God' has bestowed to everyone, that all people unknowingly have but are ignorant of. Unless the verse is saying everyone is apophatic in nature, clearly the interpretation that "You have the power = You are automatically of the same nature as Yog" is incorrect.

It doesn’t refer to everyone in verse, but the person who enter her realm thus gaining the control over all things. Anyways the entry 5 is fairly short so I recommend you to read it entirely yourself. https://hoyodex.miraheze.org/wiki/Yog-Sothoth_(Outer)/Kizuna

Hello.

Congratulations on arriving here.

What's this place, you ask?

Oh... How should I put it, this is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Sea of Stars, the Immortal World, the Abode outside of Time-Space

It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to all things, through great divine power.

So let me demonstrate for you how this divine power works.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 8, 2024

Delta333 said:
It doesn’t refer to everyone in verse, but the person who enter her realm thus gaining the control over all things. Anyways the entry 5 is fairly short so I recommend you to read it entirely yourself. https://hoyodex.miraheze.org/wiki/Yog-Sothoth_(Outer)/Kizuna

Hello.

Congratulations on arriving here.

What's this place, you ask?

Oh... How should I put it, this is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Sea of Stars, the Immortal World, the Abode outside of Time-Space

It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to all things, through great divine power.

So let me demonstrate for you how this divine power works.

Yeah, good observation. Thanks. Something that catches my eye here is this, too:

The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.

Which seems to imply that the referent of "we," here, is something that does transcend all boundaries and as such can determine and create them. If "we" refers to the Gods beyond space and time, then clearly this is a contradiction; you can't have a multiplicity of things in a state supposedly without boundaries and determinations at all. Unless there's no actual multiplicity in the gods.

Granted, there's also this:

—The truly biggest common denominator is language, and words.

Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this.

You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.

She "gives an example" of how language frames and defines the world, and this example is how she, herself, is being perceived through lines of text, and also perceiving the player through lines of text. The obvious implication here being that they both are instances of things made definite and delimited by language, indicating neither of them is of the same nature as Yog-Sothoth.

So, yeah, wack. I'll think this over and give a veredict later.

CallMeWiertz · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Which seems to imply that the referent of "we," here, is something that does transcend all boundaries and as such can determine and create them. If "we" refers to the Gods beyond space and time, then clearly this is a contradiction; you can't have a multiplicity of things in a state supposedly without boundaries and determinations at all. Unless there's no actual multiplicity in the gods.

From OP himself

"Beyond Space & Time" Gods or Outer Gods for short are far more powerful and superior than "Mythical" Gods.

Lord Of Myrid Realms is able to create a universe full of conceptual gods and create a concept that can end these gods.

In a universe where there was neither "birth" nor "death", there were constant wars and hatreds between the immortal gods.
In this universe, no existence knew why they were at war, and this was the case from the beginning. Therefore, everything in the universe during the Age of Chaos was drowning in never-ending suffering.
The Lord of Myriad Realms outside the universe realized the problem: The universe and the gods he created were in a meaningless cycle, and there was no flow of time.
In order to overcome the defects in the system of concepts, the Lord of Myriad Realms decided to give the universe this basic functioning concept:
Everything lacks eternity. This is "death".
One day, Thanatos the God of Death was born. Everything in the universe began to change quietly, and time began to flow, but the gods had not yet noticed it.
- Thanatos's Kizuna Entry 1

In Babylon, where all the wonders gather, there are many Goddesses who bear the attributes of mothers. Whether it's Metis, who is the Goddess of Wisdom, and the Goddess of the Ocean, with a heart of infinite tolerance, or Percy, who is gentle and stern, and always exudes gentleness and brilliance. There are many moments in their lives where other Gods call them mothers. In this way, those who have won the love of everyone do not put on an act of being elders to everyone, or regard themselves as mothers in the literal sense. The exception to this is, the Mother. Even when looking at her name, it is essentially forcing everyone to call her a mother. And the Mother's name is just the softest of her many measures to emphasize her motherhood. She will use her unidentified tentacles to take the initiative to do all kinds of things she thinks a mother needs to do, and calls all the gods she has ever seen as daughters.
"Strange... I have memories of her in my library, but I can't remember her... and I feel sick when I think of her... Why? This kind of foreign feeling is like that of a wooden thorn stuck in a finger..."
In short, the relationship between Metis and her seems to be very bad, but even so, The Mother still affectionately calls Metis her daughter.
- The Mother's Kizuna Entry 2

Therefore, she shall fulfill her duty, her only duty: to embrace all things, to bring all things back into her womb. Let all that she loves, after seeing that which she sees, a future of unparalleled darkness, put all that she has in her. To curl the whole universe once more into the most fundamental zeroth point, and then to use this last point... to give birth to herself.
- The Mother's Kizuna Entry 5

This should be enough to accept the power difference between "Mythical" Gods and "Outer" Gods.

Delta333 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah, good observation. Thanks. Something that catches my eye here is this, too:

Which seems to imply that the referent of "we," here, is something that does transcend all boundaries and as such can determine and create them. If "we" refers to the Gods beyond space and time, then clearly this is a contradiction; you can't have a multiplicity of things in a state supposedly without boundaries and determinations at all. Unless there's no actual multiplicity in the gods.

Granted, there's also this:

She "gives an example" of how language frames and defines the world, and this example is how she, herself, is being perceived through lines of text, and also perceiving the player through lines of text. The obvious implication here being that they both examples of how things are made definite and delimited by language, indicating neither of them is of the same nature as Yog-Sothoth.

So, yeah, wack. I'll think this over and give a veredict later.

Whether those who possess her powers are on the same level as her or not doesn’t make any difference because what people in this thread do is “to upscale Yog Sothoth from those who she grants powers to”. So, if those prayers are not tier 0 then that will result in she is not as well, but if they’re then she is also not tier 0 due to violate the tier 0 rule of having multiple tier 0 beings.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 8, 2024

CallMeWiertz said:
From OP himself

"Beyond Space & Time" Gods or Outer Gods for short are far more powerful and superior than "Mythical" Gods.

Lord Of Myrid Realms is able to create a universe full of conceptual gods and create a concept that can end these gods.

This should be enough to accept the power difference between "Mythical" Gods and "Outer" Gods.

Am I supposed to be looking at how the Gods are stated to be beyond time and space?

Delta333 said:
Whether those who possess her powers are on the same level as her or not doesn’t make any difference because what people in this thread do is “to upscale Yog Sothoth from those who she grants powers to”. So, if those prayers are not tier 0 then that will result in she is not as well, but if they’re then she is also not tier 0 due to violate the tier 0 rule of having multiple tier 0 beings.

I never said anything about whether anyone is on her level or not, so this dichotomy you're setting forth means nothing to me. To my knowledge, the Tier 0 proposal has nothing to do with upscaling whatsoever, so, if there's something I'm not aware of related to that, do elaborate.

Woomica · Sep 8, 2024

The tier 0 is entirely focused on yog being boundless so i doubt he wanted to argue anything else id wait for OP response

Weaver261 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
She "gives an example" of how language frames and defines the world, and this example is how she, herself, is being perceived through lines of text

Eh.....the speaker in entry 5 isn't even Yog Sothoth. It's one of her believers. You can see at the end of paragraph that say
"If you have time, praise my lord, Yog Sothoth"

CallMeWiertz · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Am I supposed to be looking at how the Gods are stated to be beyond time and space?

Are you confused about whether the gods outside of spacetime have multiplicity?

Ultima_Reality said:
Which seems to imply that the referent of "we," here, is something that does transcend all boundaries and as such can determine and create them. If "we" refers to the Gods beyond space and time, then clearly this is a contradiction; you can't have a multiplicity of things in a state supposedly without boundaries and determinations at all. Unless there's no actual multiplicity in the gods.

Delta333 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Am I supposed to be looking at how the Gods are stated to be beyond time and space?

I never said anything about whether anyone is on her level or not, so this dichotomy you're setting forth means nothing to me. To my knowledge, the Tier 0 proposal has nothing to do with upscaling whatsoever, so, if there's something I'm not aware of related to that, do elaborate.

You said “indicating neither of them is of the same nature as Yog-Sothoth” so I thought that’s what you mean. I will explain it again. The entire statement “The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.” was never used to describe Yog-Sothoth, it describes those who Yog-Sothoth grants the power. I mean this is where the whole tier 0 comes from right?

LifeRiderthe1 · Sep 8, 2024

Weaver261 said:
Thanatos, Azathoth, The Mother, Lupit and Star Dream. They are almost guaranteed for 1-A rating. Zeus and Lord of myrid realms will not have profiles since they lack visual representations. And probably dreamland? I'm not sure about Nyarlathotep though.

I see that makes sense. Dreamland has a picture but Dreamland stuff is a bit strange cause of the dreamland continent, and We also have The mother.
Nyar is weird to scale ig She would be above the cthulhu people and below azathoth in terms of inverse.

ig it be like

1. Yog
2. Azathoth probably
3. Thanatos
4. Zeus or The Mother
5 Nyar probably
6. 诺登斯, 呜撒喵（幽异之猫), 埃尔蒂（停滞伟大之物) (would be unknown idk much about them but nyar I am going through and she is definitely at least lore wise below azathoth)

LifeRiderthe1 · Sep 8, 2024

Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
Question Chinese standards of the Chinese vs community say this isn’t allowed because

“The works they used for upgrading, Tao Te Ching and Diamond Sutra, Cthulhu Mythos and Honkai 2 have nothing to do with each other”

that sounds incredibly mid considering we are just using what is told on yog story chapter index from ingame the Cn i sent comes from ingame not any other media or whatever the sort, nor do I think we are using the actual mythos we are using the mythos told about in honkai 2 that being the outergods, the cthulhu mythos clan whatever you wanna call it, and so forth and so on.

LifeRiderthe1 · Sep 8, 2024

LifeRiderthe1 said:
that sounds incredibly mid considering we are just using what is told on yog story chapter index from ingame the Cn i sent comes from ingame not any other media or whatever the sort, nor do I think we are using the actual mythos we are using the mythos told about in honkai 2 that being the outergods, the cthulhu mythos clan whatever you wanna call it, and so forth and so on.

奈亚拉托提普 • 阿撒托斯 • 尤格索托斯 • 幻梦境 • 埃尔蒂（停滞伟大之物） • 诺登斯 • 玛玛（星辰之触） • 呜撒喵（幽异之猫)
should be the whole list of whats counted as a Cthulhu mythos "class". took me a second, and ggz is a pain in the half to load up.

Godheads can awaken we are told this, the Outer gods are already told to be perfect, the "awakening" for yog her third form is only a thing if you have Yog already and you have to use yog to light up the red gate as said before to get the form in the room (you are forced to use yog to unlock yog)

LifeRiderthe1 · Sep 8, 2024

Yogs divine power makes that happen (if i am understanding how it works) > "Which seems to imply that the referent of "we," here, is something that does transcend all boundaries and as such can determine and create them. If "we" refers to the Gods beyond space and time, then clearly this is a contradiction; you can't have a multiplicity of things in a state supposedly without boundaries and determinations at all. Unless there's no actual multiplicity in the gods. "

Weaver261 · Sep 8, 2024

Okay...Where do I start? I will give all of the people here two proposals to resolve this. First one will be meta fictional stuffs and full of headcanon jargons. Second one will be a simple proposal.

The speaker from entry 5 described a realm outside of Time and Space. First of all, let's acknowledge the fact that this entry is directed towards readers rather than in universe existences. Why? The entry started with the speaker saying hello and congratulating for reaching here. Then, the speaker asked about the commonality in previous 4 stories. Let's digest this part first.
Can an in universe person know what the stories are unless the speaker tell him? This is impossible since the person in question just arrived here. So, who is the speaker talking to? This is clarify in this line.

You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.

Players who read Yog Sothoth's kizuna story is looking at the line of text and the speaker do the same by looking back at us. So, this entry is meant to explain things to readers. This is why I added meta reasoning part in my OP in case this kind of questions arise. Then, who is this speaker who is supposedly unrestricted just like Yog Sothoth. If you read entry 5 carefully, you'll know the speaker isn't even described as a person. My idea for this is, the speaker is the words themselevs. That's why they said "Looking at you through this line of text". This make more sense since the speaker is telling us about previous four entries. It's only possible because the speaker is the words. Weird right? That's why words have the divine power of Yog Sothoth which is description or definition. But but wait if the speaker if the words themselves, how they compare themselves with people here?

This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring it's spirituality.

So let's start with the origin of the speaker aka the words. Who wrote them? Developers obviously. They are speaking directly to us, players by using words as medium. That's why we're free from all things. So, we are talking with someone who wrote these lines. So that speaker actually doesn't exist in the realm which is outside of space and time. If that's the case, Yog sothoth isn't beyond space time? Well yes and no. Yog sothoth grant wisdoms to those who can reach to the door. And she said it herself

This World behind the door, where time and space have come to a standstill, has only wisdom remaining.

Then, she isn't beyond space and time since it's said here that time and space only come to a standstill? Well...to explain that we have to take external sources about Taosim. I know it's invalid to do that but that's the only the way. Trust me, it will make sense.
In Taoism, Wuji is the ultimate reality and it's the Tao.

It is situated before the differentiation between movement and quiescence, metaphorically located in the space-time between the kun 坤, or pure Yin, and fu 復, the return of the Yang

As we all know, Tao is inside the door. So the world behind the door that Yog Sothoth exists is the Wuji, A metaphorical space. Its existence preceded Taiji. Taiji is the duality of Ying and Yang. While it's true that Yog sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill, its nature and existence preceded time and space. It's more accurate to say space and time doesn't exist there yet.

This one is pretty simple. Forget about meta fictional jargons. If the quality Yog Sothoth has is truly 0 and other people having it is an anti-feat, other people can't become 0. It's as simple as that. See? Yog sothoth in nature is already boundless while other only gained her power to create everythings. So, it's not that they are qualify for tier 0 but rather they aren't tier 0 since they became to it. Yog sothoth tier 0 rating can stay the same as she is the Tao itself. The people who was allowed her powers will have 1-A rating since they see the worlds as "worlds within words". The other people aren't described as Tao so they can't qualify for Tier 0 with just transcending the boundries of universe.

That took me a lot of time.....Hope this work!

Delta333 · Sep 8, 2024

Weaver261 said:
Yog sothoth tier 0 rating can stay the same as she is the Tao itself. The people who was allowed her powers will have 1-A rating since they see the worlds as "worlds within words". The other people aren't described as Tao so they can't qualify for Tier 0 with just transcending the boundries of universe.

Based on what Ultima said it seems that transcending the description and definition that frame all the boundaries does make Yog-Sothoth tier 0 rather than just the Tao stuff alone, so to say that non-tier 0 characters can have it does not make much sense, but I will wait for Ultima to clarify that himself ig. He has read the text by himself already anyway.

Ultima_Reality said:
From what I can gather: Existence here is entirely defined by language, definition, and description, which provides a framework for reality and determines distinctions. Yog-Sothoth is beyond all those things and therefore beyond all boundaries and distinctions, which it sets in place to begin with.

The little story about the Tao seems to confirm that with the statement of "The name that can be named is not the eternal name," followed by "the name that can be named" being stated to be born from Yog-Sothoth's bubbles (i.e. Its power of definition). The story about the Buddha reiterates the same thing by saying a Bodhisattva has to leave behind all the marks of selfness and otherness, and eventually leave behind even the Dharma itself, since it is just a "raft" meant to lead you to what is ultimately ineffable. That, and the bit about all conditioned phenomena being illusions and etc.

Ultima_Reality said:
Why is the "Transcends definition and boundaries" bit in the 1-A key? Should that not apply only to the Tier 0 one?

I'd also remove the quote from the Tao Te Ching. The scans from the verse itself should suffice to prove the point.

Weaver261 · Sep 8, 2024

Delta333 said:
Based on what Ultima said it seems that transcending the description and definition that frame all the boundaries does make Yog-Sothoth tier 0 rather than just the Tao stuff alone, so to say that non-tier 0 characters can have it does not make much sense, but I will wait for Ultima to clarify that himself ig. He has read the text by himself already anyway.

Isn't becoming tier 0 a huge disqualifier? That's why I said, people who were allowed to use her divine power can't be tier 0. More over, this proposal outright ignored the meta fictional stuffs. That shouldn't be because it's still technically part of the entry.
I am getting headaches - _ -

LifeRiderthe1 · Sep 8, 2024

Weaver261 said:
Isn't becoming tier 0 a huge disqualifier? That's why I said, people who were allowed to use her divine power can't be tier 0. More over, this proposal outright ignored the meta fictional stuffs. That shouldn't be because it's still technically part of the entry.
I am getting headaches - _ -

yea yog is giving them divine power to become strong while yog is already strong always has been. My personal Opinion is TF yog should be tier 0 while her avatars should be listed as like 1-A or whatever is decided imo.

Delta333 · Sep 9, 2024

After discussing with my friend there seems to be more doubt than I actually thought (aside from two problems about those who can enter her realm and those who can possess her apophatic nature, which Ultima will decide later).
First there is another outer god called "The Mother", who is repeatedly said to be the one who gave birth to all creation and all other gods that makes appearance in Babylon as well.

This girl is a girl.
This girl is a mother.
This girl may be named "The Mother"... And maybe there is no name capable of describing her.
This girl is the aggregate of two opposite wills, and her very existence is a paradox.
This girl will witness the death of all her children, and the birth of all her children.
This girl calls herself the Mother of All.
But... if this girl is the Mother of All Things, then who gave birth to her, and who will make her give birth to all things?

In Babylon, where all the wonders gather, there are many Goddesses who bear the attributes of mothers. Whether it's Metis, who is the Goddess of Wisdom, and the Goddess of the Ocean, with a heart of infinite tolerance, or Percy, who is gentle and stern, and always exudes gentleness and brilliance. There are many moments in their lives where other Gods call them mothers. In this way, those who have won the love of everyone do not put on an act of being elders to everyone, or regard themselves as mothers in the literal sense. The exception to this is, the Mother. Even when looking at her name, it is essentially forcing everyone to call her a mother. And the Mother's name is just the softest of her many measures to emphasize her motherhood. She will use her unidentified tentacles to take the initiative to do all kinds of things she thinks a mother needs to do, and calls all the gods she has ever seen as daughters.

The days of joy will never return, and the grayness and death will take over every corner of this world. Therefore, she shall fulfill her duty, her only duty: to embrace all things, to bring all things back into her womb. Let all that she loves, after seeing that which she sees, a future of unparalleled darkness, put all that she has in her. To curl the whole universe once more into the most fundamental zeroth point, and then to use this last point... to give birth to herself.

Obviously Outer Gods are no exception, they're all born from her (Yog-Sothoth is an Outer God, mind you).

【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】

The only exception in Babylon is probably Chronos since she is the God of Time that's described as the most primitive and the oldest god, but this just adds more anti-feats since for Yog-Sothoth to be tier 0 she must always be there rather than having someone who existed before her (I know that she lives outside of time but existing beyond something =/= predating it).

Chronos, the God of Time, is the oldest and most primitive god. She controls time and sets the eternal rules for the world in the flow of time, that is, nothing in the world can remain unchanged forever. Whether it is humans or gods, they can only accept it even if they feel something is wrong, because they cannot survive against its rules.
时间之神柯罗诺斯，最古老而又原始的神。她掌控着时间，定下世界在时间流动之中永恒不变的规则，那就是，世间万物均无法永恒不变。而无论是人类亦或是神，哪怕觉得有所不妥也只能接受，只因为他们无法逆其规则而生存。

And then there is God of War, who is said to be the strongest among gods in Babylon, thus making her being placed above Yog-Sothoth.

Wait a minute, "endless"? As the peak of Babylon's power, isn't the God of War a bit too omnipotent?
等一下,“源源不断”? 战神无双作为巴比伦战力巅峰, 是不是太全能了点?

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

Holy **** That's a big load of misinformations T - T

Delta333 said:
Obviously Outer Gods are no exception, they're all born from her (Yog-Sothoth is an Outer God, mind you).

The only time "Outer God" being mentioned is in The Mother's story. Outer Gods is fan made notion to group Cthullu related gods in one place. Yog Sothoth and Azathoth was never stated as Outer Gods. Also, I don't know chinese but google and Chatgpt translated that line as "Larvae of the Outer God" rather than "Outer Gods". And this make sense because she was rebirth. Larvae of outer god = younger form of Outer God

Two identical beings will trigger annihilation and explosion, restarting the entire Universe — that is the moment of the birth of the stars. And that newborn her will continue to watch over the world and ensure its restart.

The current Mother appears to be just a young girl and only active on one planet... It seems that even if it is inevitable, the day of this Universe's restart is still very far away.

I tried my best to search it but there's no mentions of Outer Gods except from The Mother's kizuna.

Delta333 said:
The only exception in Babylon is probably Chronos since she is the God of Time that's described as the most primitive and the oldest god, but this just adds more anti-feats since for Yog-Sothoth to be tier 0 she must always be there rather than having someone who existed before her (I know that she lives outside of time but existing beyond something =/= predating it).

This is where a lot of people misunderstand Godhead awakens. See? Godheads has their own pasts unrelated to Babylon's narrative. All of them belongs to a certain myth like Greek, Norse etc.....They also have their own origins. Babylon is merely a place where godheads gather and study, not their origin place.

Delta333 said:
And then there is God of War, who is said to be the strongest among gods in Babylon, thus making her being placed above Yog-Sothoth

Babylon is a meta place. Power scaling won't ever make sense there but the writer don't even care to do that properly. The only power that's applicable in Babylon is Faith. That's why Lupit who can devour faith will be the strongest. Faith isn't equal to the power of Godhead. That's why even in Lupit's standard, the strong and weak godheads are weirdly placed.

But the standard of "strong" is rather ambiguous to outsiders. For example, Siegfried is too strong in her opinion; on the contrary, Einherjar is weak in her opinion.

In the end, Babylon is a weird place : )

Delta333 · Sep 9, 2024

Weaver261 said:
The only time "Outer God" being mentioned is in The Mother's story. Outer Gods is fan made notion to group Cthullu related gods in one place. Yog Sothoth and Azathoth was never stated as Outer Gods. Also, I don't know chinese but google and Chatgpt translated that line as "Larvae of the Outer God" rather than "Outer Gods". And this make sense because she was rebirth. Larvae of outer god = younger form of Outer God

Weaver261 said:
I tried my best to search it but there's no mentions of Outer Gods except from The Mother's kizuna.

"Outer gods" is what we get from human translation but that doesn't matter much if the context here just talks about Outer God in general rather than a specific being. Beside saying Outer Gods is fan-made concept that's mentioned only in The Mother story is outright incorrect.

——Am I good or evil? Haha, good and evil are just the standards for humans to define their positions. How can they be used to define the behavior of the outer gods?
——我到底是善还是恶？呵呵，善恶仅仅是人类界定立场的标准，岂能用来定义外神的行为？

Weaver261 said:
Babylon is merely a place where godheads gather and study, not their origin place.

I never said that she is born from Babylon thus not being tier 0, I said that there is god who predates her thus she is not tier 0.

Weaver261 said:
Babylon is a meta place. Power scaling won't ever make sense there but the writer don't even care to do that properly. The only power that's applicable in Babylon is Faith. That's why Lupit who can devour faith will be the strongest. Faith isn't equal to the power of Godhead.

It's still correct unless it's proven otherwise. Besides now that you talk about faith I just realize another problem, is that literally everything in Babylon is based on faith, even gods and their original powers rely on this as well, so Yog-Sothoth should be no exception.

Although the Initial Ground was the birthplace of the Imaginary Godhead, they couldn't get close to it. Because the Initial Ground was filled with a large amount of chaotic beliefs, theoretically, an Imaginary Godhead with unstable belief power would even directly disappear here.However, Ruby was different, not only was she immune to this effect, she had even assimilated into the Initial Land.As a result, Ruby was like a radiation source, radiating the chaotic beliefs of the Initial Land to Babylon, and her body was covered with a thick "Chaos Shield" made up of chaotic beliefs.In Babylon, where faith constitutes everything, the characteristics and attacks of the Godhead will be partially or completely misinterpreted when they come into contact with the Shield of Chaos. But by rebuilding the power of faith, the Shield of Chaos can be broken. This method of cracking the Shield, which is like avoiding the blacklist detection of a firewall, is really puzzling.There are still many unanswered questions about "Faith" itself!
虽然初始之地是空想神格的诞生地,但她们却无法靠近这里。因为初始之地弥漫着大量的混乱信仰,理论上,信仰之力不稳定的空想神格,甚至会直接消失在这里。然而露比却不同,她不仅免疫这种影响,甚至已经和初始之地同化。导致的结果就是,露比就像辐射源,将初始之地的混乱信仰辐射到了巴比伦,她的身上也覆盖着厚重的、由混乱信仰构成的“混沌之盾”. 在信仰构成一切的巴比伦,神格的特性和攻击,都会在接触到“混沌之盾”的时候被部分或全部曲解掉。但是只要重新构建信仰之力,就可以破解“混沌之盾 ”。这种如同避开防火墙的黑名单检测一般的破解方式,着实让人费解。 “信仰”本身还是有着许多未解之谜的。

Faith influences the true form of god as well, as shown when the avatar of Divine Comedy summons her true nature upon the Babylon (which is the world of the Divine Comedy), she can't manifest the actual world and instead just a smaller one because the world's faith in Divine Comedy had weakened. And this scan direct says that godhead power directly relies on godhead as opposed to what you said about it doesn't.

Divine Comedy is able to utilize this skill to reveal the full extent of the worlds depicted in Divine Comedy in any location on earth: the Nine Levels of Hell, the Nine Levels of Purgatory, and the Nine Heavens. And residing in the Supreme Heaven, it mobilizes the power of the heroes and deities of the twenty-seven worlds.Although it sounded like a very powerful skill, it wasn't exactly eye-catching in Babylon, where there were a lot of gods, and this skill wasn't used to hurt others, but rather to guide the sons of man to experience the world after death more easily.However, after coming to Babylon,...... the power of the Divine Comedy has been severely weakened for some reason. Not only could it only last for three minutes after activating the skill, but it also could not show the actual world, and could only make itself bigger.Although the Divine Comedy herself is the personification of the world of the Divine Comedy,......, it is a bit of a violation of one of the Seven Deadly Sins to let everyone climb from her feet to her body. After a joint study by the Godfathers of Babylon, Divine Comedy came to the conclusion that the world's faith in Divine Comedy had weakened.Therefore, in order to re-present the world of Divine Comedy and to lead people to the right path, Divine Comedy is constantly working to revive people's faith!
害他人的,而是用来引导人之子们更方便地体会死后世界用的。只不过,在来到巴比伦之后......神曲的力量因为某些原因被严重削弱了。不仅在发动技能之后只能维持三分钟,还并不能把实际的世界展现出来,只能让自己的体积变大。虽然神曲本人就是神曲世界的人格化展现,但让大家从她的脚上往身上爬......难免有点触犯七宗罪之一。在于巴比伦的神格们共同研究之后,神曲得出了结论 :世人对神曲的信仰减弱了。因此,为了重新展现神曲世界,也为了将人们引向正路,神曲在不断努力地唤起人们的信仰! 先从给技能起个酷炫名字开始。

There might be some translation errors due to MTL, but the main points are basically same and I show the raw scan as well for others to check.

CallMeWiertz · Sep 9, 2024

Weaver261 said:
Yog Sothoth and Azathoth was never stated as Outer Gods.

Are you contradicting yourself just because of Tier 0?

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

Delta333 said:
"Outer gods" is what we get from human translation but that doesn't matter much if the context here just talks about Outer God in general rather than a specific being. Beside saying Outer Gods is fan-made concept that's mentioned only in The Mother story is outright incorrect.

I couldn't find Nyarlathotep's kizuna in cn so I didn't know this. It's nice to have more mention of Outer Gods since it will make the notion official. I have no problems with that. The problem I'm having is the translation which I find hard to believe. The sentence is talking about The Mother, the mother of stars, larvae of outer gods. If this translation is correct, why larvae? Larvae is the active immature form of an insect, especially one that differs greatly from the adult. This is incoherant with the whole sentence. Because the sentence is only describing about The Mother, not about outer gods being in Larvae state. If this translation is wrong and "larvae of an outer god" is correct, this make more sense because she was birthed and still young. I will leave this to those who can translate.

Delta333 said:
I never said that she is born from Babylon thus not being tier 0, I said that there is god who predates her thus she is not tier 0.

This is wrong because she predates everything. You can refute this by saying "She just knows and her existence doesn't predates chronos." But remind that Yog Sothoth is wisdom itself.

Then, from the driver's mouth, came truths that the Speaker could not believe—the origin of Religion, the Birth of Gods, the Origin of Wisdom, the common experience of preachers... And, the Eternal Bubble.

Delta333 said:
It's still correct unless it's proven otherwise. Besides now that you talk about faith I just realize another problem, is that literally everything in Babylon is based on faith, even gods and their original powers rely on this as well, so Yog-Sothoth should be no exception.

Delta333 said:
Faith influences the true form of god as well, as shown when the avatar of Divine Comedy summons her true nature upon the Babylon (which is the world of the Divine Comedy), she can't manifest the actual world and instead just a smaller one because the world's faith in Divine Comedy had weakened. And this scan direct says that godhead power directly relies on godhead as opposed to what you said about it doesn't.

Then this must be my mistake. But still there's no context other beings stronger than Yog Sothoth. Yog Sothoth doesn't even appear in Babylon. Although she belongs to K School building, only Azathoth lives there. Yog Sothoth's location is unknown beside from her words "The world behind the door". Just as The Mother isn't allowed to walk in Babylon because she might crush the Ying and Yang which make up the universe. If Ying and yang are still part of Babylon, Yog Sothoth still overpowered everyone since she is the Tao which ying and yang came from. This statement came from Chaos and Universal Nature so, it's reliable. Even though The mother isn't capable of crushing the ying yang, babylon still has ying and yang.

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

CallMeWiertz said:
Are you contradicting yourself just because of Tier 0?

Trust me I want the notion to be official more than anyone. I searched for it which took a long time. I just couldn't find it. Since the scan is presented now, I've no problem with that

Delta333 · Sep 9, 2024

I will put the part that needs translation for later.

Weaver261 said:
This is wrong because she predates everything. You can refute this by saying "She just knows and her existence doesn't predates chronos." But remind that Yog Sothoth is wisdom itself.

The scan you send doesn’t say anything about her predating all other gods, what is the reason that makes “birth of gods” including Chronos?

Weaver261 said:
Although she belongs to K School building, only Azathoth lives there. Yog Sothoth's location is unknown beside from her words "The world behind the door".

It just means she comes from her world to the K school building, it’s simple as that. That’s literally the nature of practically all Babylon gods in the first place. They’re born somewhere out there then come to the Babylon, so the scaling still works.

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

Delta333 said:
It just means she comes from her world to the K school building

While it's true that godheads gather in babylon, she should be part of K school building but azathoth's kizuna state otherwise. Also why you ignored the statement of ying yang still being part of Babylon??

Come to the ruined academy building K, there is only 1 godhead living here, and that is Azathoth, the god of blindness and ignorance.

Delta333 · Sep 9, 2024

Weaver261 said:
While it's true that godheads gather in babylon, she should be part of K school building but azathoth's kizuna state otherwise. Also why you ignored the statement of ying yang still being part of Babylon??

It’s simple, students of K school building do come here but they’re all afraid of Azathoth thus they leave and only her remain here. So the scaling still works. And if Yog-Sothoth also doesn’t live here then she’s afraid of Azathoth too ig.

校舍的阴影

即便是强大的奈亚拉托提普，也有着害怕的事物——那就是沉睡于K校舍的阿撒托斯。

作为被阿撒托斯孕育出来的孩子和从属，奈亚拉托提普对她既尊敬又畏惧。

在阿撒托斯沉睡的时候，奈亚拉托提普视K校舍为禁地，甚至不敢靠近一步。但这一切自有缘由。

就在上次，阿撒托斯醒来之后，奈亚拉托提普被命令带一个巨大的音响过来。

虽然万般不情愿，但奈亚拉托提普还是把音响带了过来。然后，她就经受了人生中最大的折磨——

疯狂的嘶鸣、呕哑的长笛声通过音响不断地扩放着。奈亚不仅得忍受猛烈的音波攻击，还要赞美阿撒托斯：

“不愧是阿撒托斯大人，这样的音乐实在是太艺术了！”

奈亚拉托提普堆着假笑，满心滴血地吹捧着阿撒托斯。

一边忍耐着，一边吹捧着。就这样，等到阿撒托斯心满意足地再次沉睡下去之后，奈亚拉托提普才终于摆脱了。

饶是如此，在接下来的几个月里，只要听到一点声音，奈亚拉托提普的身体就会不断的打哆嗦。

The shadow of the school building

Even the powerful Nyarlathotep has something to fear - that is Azathoth sleeping in the K school building.

As a child and subordinate born by Azathoth, Nyarlathotep respects and fears her.

When Azathoth was asleep, Nyarlathotep regarded the K school building as a forbidden place and did not even dare to get close to it. But there was a reason for all this.

Just last time, after Azathoth woke up, Nyarlathotep was ordered to bring a huge speaker.

Although she was extremely reluctant, Nyarlathotep still brought the speaker. Then, she suffered the greatest torture in her life -

The crazy hissing and hoarse flute sound was constantly amplified through the speaker. Not only did Nyarlathotep have to endure the fierce sonic attack, but he also had to praise Azathoth:

"As expected of Lord Azathoth, this music is really artistic!"

Nyarlathotep put on a fake smile and praised Azathoth with all his heart.

He endured and praised. In this way, when Azathoth fell asleep again with satisfaction, Nyarlathotep finally got rid of it.

Even so, in the next few months, Nyarlathotep's body would tremble constantly whenever he heard a little sound.

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

Delta333 said:
It’s simple, students of K school building do come here but they’re all afraid of Azathoth thus they leave and only her remain here. So the scaling still works. And if Yog-Sothoth also doesn’t live here then she’s afraid of Azathoth too ig.

Those who are stated to be afraid of Azathoth in kizuna story is not the students from K school building but from other branches. Each branch have their own building. Nyarlathotep afraid of her because she is Azathoth's child and subordinate. And it's made clear from the start that only Azathoth lives in K School Building.
It was never stated that Yog Sothoth's afraid of Azathoth. Other cthullu branch students also live in their own domains, like The Mother, Dreamland and Erti. So, it's more reasonable to assume Yog Sothoth also live in the world behind the door. And also why you keep ignoring the babylon having ying and yang???????

Rakih_Elyan · Sep 9, 2024

Weaver261 said:
And also why you keep ignoring the babylon having ying and yang

As a Chinaman myself, Yin-Yang that created the universe mean shit outside of ability like Nonduality or Transduality. Hell, I even get a verse that its aspect of Yin and Yang created the universe and they cap at 1-A. Even with the protag being the Heavenly Dao where the Dao of Yin-Yang came from.

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

Rakih_Elyan said:
As a Chinaman myself, Yin-Yang that created the universe mean shit outside of ability like Nonduality or Transduality. Hell, I even get a verse that its aspect of Yin and Yang created the universe and they cap at 1-A. Even with the protag being the Heavenly Dao where the Dao of Yin-Yang came from.

It is depend on how the verse describes it. In Yog sothoth case, it's described clearly again and again. Transcending description or definition, being the Tao itself which is said to be unnamable and eternal. Also Tao is described differently in some philosophies. Although underlying basic are the same, there're some differences. In neo-confucianism, Tao is Taiji while in Taosim, Tao is Wuji. Yog Sothoth's Tao is from Taosim described by Tao Te ching, Laozi

Delta333 · Sep 9, 2024

Weaver261 said:
Those who are stated to be afraid of Azathoth in kizuna story is not the students from K school building but from other branches. Each branch have their own building. Nyarlathotep afraid of her because she is Azathoth's child and subordinate. And it's made clear from the start that only Azathoth lives in K School Building.
It was never stated that Yog Sothoth's afraid of Azathoth. Other cthullu branch students also live in their own domains, like The Mother, Dreamland and Erti. So, it's more reasonable to assume Yog Sothoth also live in the world behind the door. And also why you keep ignoring the babylon having ying and yang???????

They never said anything about other branches actually, beside all you have proved just simply "Yog-Sothoth is not in K school building" and not "Yog-Sothoth is not in Babylon". If Babylon has yin and yang then that simply results in anti-feat for Yog-Sothoth to be Tao, I don't ignore anything, it's just totally nothing for me to disprove in the first place.

Weaver261 · Sep 9, 2024

Delta333 said:
They never said anything about other branches actually, beside all you have proved just simply "Yog-Sothoth is not in K school building" and not "Yog-Sothoth is not in Babylon". If Babylon has yin and yang then that simply results in anti-feat for Yog-Sothoth to be Tao, I don't ignore anything, it's just totally nothing for me to disprove in the first place.

Other godheads that appeared in Azathoth's kizuna are from different branches. Like Slyvan from Norse branch and Kanna from science branch. The point is only Azathoth lives in K school building and Yog Sothoth lives in her own world.
Babylon having ying and yang is important because ying and yang is the movement while Yog Sothoth being Tao(Wuji), naturally exists before the nature of Ying and Yang. I don't know why you even think it's an anti feat. Your thought process might go like "Yog Sothoth is in Babylon, that mean she is still limited in ying yang. That's why anti feat" right? Now, we know Yog Sothoth actually live in her own world where ying and yang doesn't exist. But her other avatar white abyss has talked about Nyarlathotep. So, her avatar might live in Babylon. This is just assumption.

GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade

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