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Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Out of everything listed here, the only thing that supports universal size is the one offhanded comment about “bringing peace to the universe”, but every other screenshot for this guide explicitly refers to Subcons as “dream worlds”. Considering that affecting Subcons has an affect on the real world and Wart, as shown by BS SMBUSA can reach and mess with multiple Subcons, that affecting the dreams of people throughout the world / universe would disrupt the peace of the universe, not the dream world, but the main universe where people have their dreams? And defeating Wart would restore said peace? The only piece of evidence supporting Subcon / dream worlds being a universe being an offhand line from a tip book from the 80s is a little wild, especially if it’s what carries an entire multiversal cosmology.

(Post is from Kirb, he's just busy at work rn)
Click to expand...
The "offhand comment" about "bringing peace to the universe" as the game's ultimate goal is led up to by multiple statements about exactly what you are directly bringing peace to and into as a direct consequence of defeating Wart and his minions within this single Subcon. Which is bringing peace to a Subcon and its residents, not the main universe Mario sleeps in and its dreamers, every time its brought up.

First one from the tip book itself says this as you are going to defeat one of Wart's moppets:
"Mouser is the ruling boss of World 1. Defeating him is the first step toward bringing peace back into the world."
The quote is relating to the characters making the (dream) world setting they traveled to and are fighting inside of as peaceful as the goal you are working towards accomplishing since its overrun by monsters ruling it.

The subsequent page in the tip book talking about going to defeat Wart himself follows the prior page quote of the identical goal of bringing peace back into the (dream) world you are fighting in with all the struggles you have had so far leading up to this to this battle:
"Wart, creator of all the monsters in the World of Dreams, and the source of all its evil! You've come this far, you can't back down now. This will take all the strength and courage you've got. This guy is sly, wily, strong and full of ways to stop your progress. But you have a few tricks of your own to achieve victory and bring peace to the universe."

Final one from the tip book itself says this in the very next page as the universe statement wording after you have defeated Wart:
"AND NOW...Mario and his friends have come through with flying colors to defeat nasty old Wart and bring peace to the World of Dreams. So give a hearty thanks to our hero and let the victory celebration begin!"
Giving a sequential denotation and reference to that which the World of Dreams they just brought peace to was, in fact, a universe. The World of Dreams is a nickname for a single Subcon, as should be well pointed out by now.

The game, manual itself gives credence to the sphere of attention of what they are trying to save and return to peace to by fighting Wart:
One of the resident species:
"We have been awaiting your arrival. Please defeat Wart and return Subcon to its natural state." - Super Mario Bros. 2 instruction booklet, page 3
Or
"When Mario opened a door after climbing a long stair in his dream, another world spread before him and he heard a voice call for help to be freed from a spell." - Super Mario Bros 2 in-game story.

Supplementary official information that Nintendo has endorsed explores this same topic of the goal of the game to be bringing peace to that Subcon.

Nintendo Power Issue #1: "Welcome to the World of Dreams, the land of Sub-con. We have been waiting for you, Mario. We want you and your friends to fight against the evil ruler, Wart, and bring peace back to the World of Dreams."

Club Nintendo Volume 2 1990 Issue 6:

SUBCON - DIE WELT DER TRÄUME
https://imgur.com/Kdn9D3s
Eines Nachts, nachdem Mario eingeschlafen war, wurde er in eine fremde Welt der Träume gelockt. Kaum daß er diesen wunderlichen Ort betreteten hatte, hörte er eine Stimme. Sie erzählte ihm, daß er mit seinen Freunden losziehen soll, den bösen Herrscher Wart zu besiegen, um wieder Frieden in Subcon zu schaffen.
https://imgur.com/Kdn9D3s
English translation:
https://imgur.com/Kdn9D3s
"SUBCON - THE WORLD OF DREAMS
https://imgur.com/Kdn9D3s
One night, after Mario had fallen asleep, he was lured into a strange world of dreams. No sooner had he entered this strange place than he heard a voice. It told him that he and his friends should set out to defeat the evil ruler Wart in order to bring peace back into Subcon."

Nintendo AU Twitter: "New #NES games have been added to #NintendoSwitchOnline – Nintendo Entertainment System! Save the world of Subcon in #SuperMario Bros. 2"

To the next point, considering BS SMBUSA wasn't released at the time of the tip guide's creation (circa 1996) and supplied quote in question; your interpretation holds zero weight to assume the people writing the guide was referencing and using information that the players don't even know about in a meta sense, what with Wart wanting to take over other Subcons that existed per each dreaming person, for this defeat to involve the main universe's well-being as a whole when he is shown to only threaten a small but unknown number of persons at a time. At best he's stated to create the Ninji with the Dream Machine to affect the dream worlds of some specific subset of gamers; "He is a little devil who appears in the dreams of NES players. He moves fast and will persistently chase you." - Super Mario Bros. 2 instruction booklet, page 24 (Ninji - 1 description). The particular Subcon world Wart invaded to rule over was a dream world not provably shared between more people other than the main quartet you play as for who was having bad dreams in the main universe (Mario, Peach, Luigi, Toad). You cannot prove Wart was affecting all dreams and dreamers throughout the whole main universe at that time and is not something the guide talks about saving them from night terrors, nor does the direct context of the quote that the guide give point towards that even being the case for what you are bringing peace to when you actively travel throughout the 7 worlds / levels that make up Subcon.

For the last thing, this is an objection derived from an appeal to novelty. The game SMB2 came out in the 80s as well, 1988, so it shouldn't matter for a series spanning decades already since starting 1983 and for the company of Nintendo and its official licensees to punctually recap something at a similar time period to when the game was in the public's hands, releasing the tip book in 1989. I'm not expecting an official guide written by any of them to come out anytime in 2024 specifically retconning the information we got back then so I can support some part of my powerscaling hobby, because its old news.
 
Might as well follow, this is interesting. Whats the winning argument so far (to downgrade, or not to downgrade?)
 
Kirb and I have been quite busy with real life, so we've yet to respond to the above debunks. Although I should have some time to work on a response soon.
 
Yeah, take y’all’s time when it comes to debunking- Moreso with cosmologies as big as the tier 2s

Honestly, though, I’m just here to watch. Seeing downgrades, upgrades, and the whatnot is….entertaining to some degree
 
Topaz404 said:
Might as well follow, this is interesting. Whats the winning argument so far (to downgrade, or not to downgrade?)
Click to expand...
2-1 in favor so far to downgrade? Given Maverick Zero X and Deagonx agree with the OP, DarkDragonMedeus disagrees.

Armorchompy leaning to agree, wanted to read over the counterarguments before actually casting his vote.
Rest of the mod peoples don't seem to care to put a stake just yet.
 
I may cast a vote when both sides expand more on their arguments, but i am kinda leaning towards agreeing with OP (high tier cosmology stuff can get a lil confusing sometimes), but thats just a quick glance. Its subject to change

either way Luigi is getting rolled by Sanae but thats neither here nor there
 
JJSliderman said:
They’re not, but it’s already established there’s an infinite amount of dreamers, and dreams being separate space-times is still okay, so The Void and Chaos Heart shouldn’t be downgraded. They’d still be destroying an infinite amount of 4D spaces.
Click to expand...
Oh wait yeah you’re right.
 
JJSliderman said:
They’re not, but it’s already established there’s an infinite amount of dreamers, and dreams being separate space-times is still okay, so The Void and Chaos Heart shouldn’t be downgraded. They’d still be destroying an infinite amount of 4D spaces.
Click to expand...
Gonna reiterate this with what StretchSebe said here:
StretchSebe said:
Late to the party:

The 'starry skies only proves 4-A at most' and similar arguments/points are an inherently fallacious argument. Saying we can 'only observe' a certain amount of a given spacetime (yes, spacetime. More on that later), and therefore we can only assume as much as we can observe is literally an argument from ignorance. And given this could apply to literally any series that hasn't shown literally the entirety of its universe and/or time, I think we should put this specific argument to bed forever.

Here's a couple facts about our own universe:
On that, and because of these facts, for 'universe' levels, this wiki recognizes:
  • 3-A (Universe level) as: "Characters who can destroy all celestial bodies within a volume at least equivalent to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion, alternately create or significantly affect[1] a universe of comparable size, which does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time." (more on this soon)
  • High 3-A (High Universe level) as: "Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier."
  • And Low 2-C (Universe+) as: "Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:
    A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.
    B) Portrayed as completely transcending lower-dimensional objects and spaces in the setting of a given work of fiction.
This has already been discussed and established in numerous threads, but even by the admission of this initial post:

Dreams contain space and time in this verse.

This immediately means any given dream is an entire spacetime, making it more than just any 'observable universe' and at the very least High Universe sized by the rules of the wiki. But we're talking about more than one dream. Lots of dreams, even. The cosmology isn't one 'big dream' or something. No amount of 'well we only see x amount' changes this fact.

Tl;dr: Thread starter is unsound: Founded upon an inherently fallacious argument from ignorance. Literally using the wiki's primary example of this fallacy as its structure: "There is no evidence of A, so A cannot possibly be true." But there is evidence, provided within this thread starter of all places, and that can be found otherwise discussed on this wiki. We're literally running so far back in terms of what's seemingly acceptable evidence from the series and concepts within it that we're stagnating at pre-Super Mario Bros 2 and it's dreamworld with its own distinct spacetime in it in terms of the information this post is suggesting we can know, accept, or use for a series that's been around for 40+ years.
Click to expand...
 
We have discussed these exact points to death. There's nothing proving that dreams aren't universes, necessarily, but there's nothing proving they are, either. Having space and time isn't enough; a dimension needs to have the proper size, and dreams in Mario lack sufficient evidence to say they do.

Regardless, I should be able to get back to working on a response soon.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
We have discussed these exact points to death. There's nothing proving that dreams aren't universes, necessarily, but there's nothing proving they are, either. Having space and time isn't enough; a dimension needs to have the proper size, and dreams in Mario lack sufficient evidence to say they do.

Regardless, I should be able to get back to working on a response soon.
Click to expand...
With the amount of effort you guys have been putting in this thread it would have been more efficient to have Ultima change the standards so you just need to prove the 3D space is not compactified, just saying
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
We have discussed these exact points to death. There's nothing proving that dreams aren't universes, necessarily, but there's nothing proving they are, either. Having space and time isn't enough; a dimension needs to have the proper size, and dreams in Mario lack sufficient evidence to say they do.

Regardless, I should be able to get back to working on a response soon.
Click to expand...
This thread has gotten really out of hand, to be honest.

Given the immense amount of bloat, I would not be opposed to you remaking this as a staff thread, and giving the main opponents/advocates an opportunity to make a single summary of their points, and voting then.
 
Deagonx said:
This thread has gotten really out of hand, to be honest.

Given the immense amount of bloat, I would not be opposed to you remaking this as a staff thread, and giving the main opponents/advocates an opportunity to make a single summary of their points, and voting then.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we were derailed pretty early on, so I wouldn't be opposed to remaking the thread. However, given @Kirbonic_Pikmin did the majority of the work here, I'd rather ask him.
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
.
Click to expand...
What are your thoughts on this?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yeah, we were derailed pretty early on, so I wouldn't be opposed to remaking the thread. However, given @Kirbonic_Pikmin did the majority of the work here, I'd rather ask him.

What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
I would be fine with making a staff only thread yes. Fuji and I will workshop the OP and also make replies to any major counter arguments and will probably go ahead and do that asap.
 
Alright, guess ill continue following. Once its done, i might do a Luigi based MU (well, then again, it may not happen. i may forget lol)
but yes, following still
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
I would be fine with making a staff only thread yes. Fuji and I will workshop the OP and also make replies to any major counter arguments and will probably go ahead and do that asap.
Click to expand...
Okay. I'll close this and wait for the follow up thread. When that is opened, please comment on my wall so that I am made aware of it.
 
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