ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
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I share the same thoughts as Griffin, he explains it better than I can put to words
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Beyond the Mario-Verse [2-A God Tier Upgrades & Cosmology]
- Thread starter Mephistus
- Start date
- Status
StretchSebe
They/Them- 1,006
- 741
If the subject of the thread you plan to make, and the content of the starting post in it would pertain to, and be in response to this thread's starting post, and subject, why not just post the rebuttal or 'fundamental issues' in this thread?
Also, agree with Zesp, and you. In that I couldn't have said it better, and that I mostly agree with what you said!
For point 1: I've seen official guide books be considered or not. so idk how that'll resolve. I lean on the side of thinking it's not hyperbole. I can still see how it could be considered such though given the context (another example for both points 1 and 2 would be the term 'endless horde,' usually referring to an overwhelming amount).
That said, on point 2, I think that when talking about cosmology and such being an infinite space filled with dreams (which in this verse is a universe with it's own space-time), that should be more charitably interpreted. That said, there are obviously some nuances that could be argued for, as you do, and could be considered 'gaps' in the overall evidence, but like you also say, I think 'possibly 2-A' would still be fair given it's mostly solid evidence Mephistus brought up, and it ties together with few 'gaps.'
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Yeah, I think a "possibly 2-A" would be most suitable. Don't get me wrong; I think the reasoning is better and stronger, but it doesn't quite warrant a solid 2-A.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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It has very little to do with this thread, and instead pertains to how we view dreams in Mario as cosmological structures on VSBW to begin with. If I brought it up here it would effectively be an entirely separate thread, as this one is tackling the quantity of dreams, my issue relates to dreams to begin with.
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Ugh, we've been over this before. Dreams have there own constellations, countless stars, nebulas, and dimensions, and I just wanna note, when Luigi becomes one with the dream world, he's able to manipulate both space and time in it, which should imply these worlds have their own space-time. We don't have any proof these dimensions are only starry skies or anything like that.
Not to derail here, but... No, dreams are NOT galaxies or starry skies.
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Let's not derail by discussing the size of dreams here. Kirbonic already said he's gonna save that for a different time, so let's drop it.
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Alright, then. Forgive me.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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None of these things would prove uni size btw lol.
But yes let’s avoid derailing. This thing’s been in limbo as is
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Well, it doesn't mean that they're only the size of galaxies or starry skies, either; just saying. Not trying to derail here.
But yeah, let's get back on topic.
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
- 1,051
Glad you asked. Just the 2-A stuff. LordGriffin and DDM are the only mods who got involved so far which surprises me. The current conclusion is leaning towards accepting 2-A for pure hearts. DDM full on agrees with 2-A while Griffin agrees with possibly 2-A
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I think we got two staff agreements so far. DDM agrees with the OP and Maverick seems to think that a "possibly 2-A" is most suitable. Personally, I do agree with him and Zespeon on "possibly".
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So this counts as two agreements in total, no?
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
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Yuh
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
- 1,051
Maverick uses she/her just to let u know, and did she say anything here? I didnt see her statement
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Oh, okay.
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I meant, can somebody explain the current arguments here in an easily understood manner please?
Mephistus
Username Only- 1,046
- 809
- Thread starter
- #59
Not really a summary but this does go over just about everything; we are still exchanging thoughts. ^
The critical canon evidence backing that up is you can kill to your hearts content the ghost population that already live there, and new ones arrive (from the background, since they aren't hiding in the ship since after a certain point of killing them the measure becomes an impossibility to store them) to fight you, at an extremely alarming fast rate with the Chargin' Chuck'. Doing some quick eyeball math here, the rate you can do that would be about 15 Chinchos killed per every 20 seconds. Doing that rate for a single year net you ~23 million of enemies just showing up to try and end Mario's life for stealing the Power Moons.
There isn't much else to go off this anomaly location other than its treated as nothing on Mario's planet with the sky and ground having a red checkered, see through appearance akin to a void that extends as far as visible, leading to it being not limited to being located on their finite planet's scope. There's nothing really shown like it in the other Mario games.
For the canonical aspect, we generally do treat claims from databooks as reasonable until proven otherwise if they are official long as they don't hold numerous errors (to which these books haven't been accused of when reporting on this specific game entry). I won't condemn the quote to hyperbole if we are getting information about a previously undiscovered place in lore, since I believe that it does get less likely for that interpretation to have better substance with the more Chinchos you are allowed to kill. This particular ghost enemy has only shown up in one game so far for media to glean info from.
In my take, for the alien to reasonably be comparing this whole space to the population there is an infinite degree of comparison for how widely the population exists spread out no matter which direction you go in. Rather than everyone's being smothered by alien bodies crammed next to each other and there's no room to move.
In any case, the flexibility of the quote should at least bear a possibly 2-A rating, as you can admit. I won't agree for more than a likely rating for this.
To newly question your point using the role of the Big Paint Stars, the only real difference between the rest of raw paint they expel and them is that they have black eye dots (which is hard to show on black paint). We really only have otherwise Black Bowser's interaction with being possessed by Black Paint covering him to prove individual clumps have their own sentience and minds/wills in their primordial form like the Big Paint Stars. The Mini-Paint Stars themselves, which are just clumps of paint too, are referenced as being alike besides only their size. So that is another train of thought that can hint the base state of paint has a similar physiology to sleep and potentially dream.
I will concede the paints not outright dreaming to begin with, since we don't have specific enough evidence for that type of "sleep" and it's a bad precedent to go with outright 2-A since some beings shouldn't be capable and shouldn't receive more than a possibly rating for this, if at all.
For Paper, I'm going to have to disagree. Once the paint is removed, the paper that makes up the Toads isn't special in their verse. The paper having paint added and then extracted shouldn't change its fundamental state once the parts are separated. It doesn't need to become something that gained the ability to dream after contact with paint and takes leaps to assume it changes instead of gets reverted back to its fundamental state. Paper starts out that way. There are statements that paper characters start out and need to be painted to become "alive" when they start as paper, with paint being a life-bringing substance:
Ex:
"There! Fresh as the day you were painted. Come back anytime!"
Characters and the narration show that paper that makes a Toad is as indistinguishable from the (scraps of) various papers that make up the setting: (eg. "restore color to a world made completely out of paper") and what characters that are killed turn into equivalent confetti after defeat. Also, a Paper Toad is not observed to be any different than a piece of envelope paper when Mario has a folded up one in his hands he takes out and only realizes the horror when he realizes the shape in the intro to Color Splash, having received mail on your average paper note before.
Yeah, fighting Knucklotec on their planet, the Chinchos there aren't referenced to be infinitely respawning or something in the printed media like a manual, in-game character quotes or game narration. Likewise, for places with treasure chest traps areas in Odessey, they don't continue haunt you there once you kill a few of them and they don't just reform there.
The critical canon evidence backing that up is you can kill to your hearts content the ghost population that already live there, and new ones arrive (from the background, since they aren't hiding in the ship since after a certain point of killing them the measure becomes an impossibility to store them) to fight you, at an extremely alarming fast rate with the Chargin' Chuck'. Doing some quick eyeball math here, the rate you can do that would be about 15 Chinchos killed per every 20 seconds. Doing that rate for a single year net you ~23 million of enemies just showing up to try and end Mario's life for stealing the Power Moons.
There isn't much else to go off this anomaly location other than its treated as nothing on Mario's planet with the sky and ground having a red checkered, see through appearance akin to a void that extends as far as visible, leading to it being not limited to being located on their finite planet's scope. There's nothing really shown like it in the other Mario games.
For the canonical aspect, we generally do treat claims from databooks as reasonable until proven otherwise if they are official long as they don't hold numerous errors (to which these books haven't been accused of when reporting on this specific game entry). I won't condemn the quote to hyperbole if we are getting information about a previously undiscovered place in lore, since I believe that it does get less likely for that interpretation to have better substance with the more Chinchos you are allowed to kill. This particular ghost enemy has only shown up in one game so far for media to glean info from.
I'm afraid there's not much I can sincerely add here and even in the OP I do agree its my take on how it can be gotten to that point and its grand implications, rather than it being specified in the text and spoon-fed for us.
In my take, for the alien to reasonably be comparing this whole space to the population there is an infinite degree of comparison for how widely the population exists spread out no matter which direction you go in. Rather than everyone's being smothered by alien bodies crammed next to each other and there's no room to move.
In any case, the flexibility of the quote should at least bear a possibly 2-A rating, as you can admit. I won't agree for more than a likely rating for this.
For Paint, I will actually concede on them somehow forming and reverting back to their primordial state for the Lava Bubbles (technically they are already part paper there seen when you start removing it from them so I am already uncomfortable using them now if we are only focusing on paint's role for the dream worlds to be made) and thus have to become a form in order that they can dream, with them shifting back into that merged state with Bowser.
To newly question your point using the role of the Big Paint Stars, the only real difference between the rest of raw paint they expel and them is that they have black eye dots (which is hard to show on black paint). We really only have otherwise Black Bowser's interaction with being possessed by Black Paint covering him to prove individual clumps have their own sentience and minds/wills in their primordial form like the Big Paint Stars. The Mini-Paint Stars themselves, which are just clumps of paint too, are referenced as being alike besides only their size. So that is another train of thought that can hint the base state of paint has a similar physiology to sleep and potentially dream.
I will concede the paints not outright dreaming to begin with, since we don't have specific enough evidence for that type of "sleep" and it's a bad precedent to go with outright 2-A since some beings shouldn't be capable and shouldn't receive more than a possibly rating for this, if at all.
For Paper, I'm going to have to disagree. Once the paint is removed, the paper that makes up the Toads isn't special in their verse. The paper having paint added and then extracted shouldn't change its fundamental state once the parts are separated. It doesn't need to become something that gained the ability to dream after contact with paint and takes leaps to assume it changes instead of gets reverted back to its fundamental state. Paper starts out that way. There are statements that paper characters start out and need to be painted to become "alive" when they start as paper, with paint being a life-bringing substance:
Ex:
"There! Fresh as the day you were painted. Come back anytime!"
Characters and the narration show that paper that makes a Toad is as indistinguishable from the (scraps of) various papers that make up the setting: (eg. "restore color to a world made completely out of paper") and what characters that are killed turn into equivalent confetti after defeat. Also, a Paper Toad is not observed to be any different than a piece of envelope paper when Mario has a folded up one in his hands he takes out and only realizes the horror when he realizes the shape in the intro to Color Splash, having received mail on your average paper note before.
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ZespeonGalaxy
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Bump
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In my view the ability to recursively dream along with the implication of either an infinite amount or near infinite amount of total being in the verse (since as shown in SPM people who die are still around in Underwhere or Overthere meaning no matter what the dreams are still happening) should be evidence that the entire Mario Multiverse is 2-A or at the very least 2-B.
Well, I guess after that the next choice is "Do the Dreams count as being universal in size". Considering there's a couple example of Dreams being 4-A to 3-A in size and they're all compared to each other as Subcons, I think the argument holds merit. Though if this change does go through, who exactly is scaling to this other than the Pure Hearts/Chaos Hearts?
Well, I guess after that the next choice is "Do the Dreams count as being universal in size". Considering there's a couple example of Dreams being 4-A to 3-A in size and they're all compared to each other as Subcons, I think the argument holds merit. Though if this change does go through, who exactly is scaling to this other than the Pure Hearts/Chaos Hearts?
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
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So is this an agree?
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I added more to my comment, but as of right now I agree.
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I think just the Pure Hearts/Chaos Heart and those who use them.
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
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Just chaos/pure heart wielders, unless the dream stone somehow holds the same infinite dreams or whatever, which isnt the case. But thats for another topic.
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I'll see about responding to this tonight, I'm about to eat dat epic thanksgiving food!Not really a summary but this does go over just about everything; we are still exchanging thoughts. ^
Yeah, fighting Knucklotec on their planet, the Chinchos there aren't referenced to be infinitely respawning or something in the printed media like a manual, in-game character quotes or game narration. Likewise, for places with treasure chest traps areas in Odessey, they don't continue haunt you there once you kill a few of them and they don't just reform there.
The critical canon evidence backing that up is you can kill to your hearts content the ghost population that already live there, and new ones arrive (from the background, since they aren't hiding in the ship since after a certain point of killing them the measure becomes an impossibility to store them) to fight you, at an extremely alarming fast rate with the Chargin' Chuck'. Doing some quick eyeball math here, the rate you can do that would be about 15 Chinchos killed per every 20 seconds. Doing that rate for a single year net you ~23 million of enemies just showing up to try and end Mario's life for stealing the Power Moons.
There isn't much else to go off this anomaly location other than its treated as nothing on Mario's planet with the sky and ground having a red checkered, see through appearance akin to a void that extends as far as visible, leading to it being not limited to being located on their finite planet's scope. There's nothing really shown like it in the other Mario games.
For the canonical aspect, we generally do treat claims from databooks as reasonable until proven otherwise if they are official long as they don't hold numerous errors (to which these books haven't been accused of when reporting on this specific game entry). I won't condemn the quote to hyperbole if we are getting information about a previously undiscovered place in lore, since I believe that it does get less likely for that interpretation to have better substance with the more Chinchos you are allowed to kill. This particular ghost enemy has only shown up in one game so far for media to glean info from.
I'm afraid there's not much I can sincerely add here and even in the OP I do agree its my take on how it can be gotten to that point and its grand implications, rather than it being specified in the text and spoon-fed for us.
In my take, for the alien to reasonably be comparing this whole space to the population there is an infinite degree of comparison for how widely the population exists spread out no matter which direction you go in. Rather than everyone's being smothered by alien bodies crammed next to each other and there's no room to move.
In any case, the flexibility of the quote should at least bear a possibly 2-A rating, as you can admit. I won't agree for more than a likely rating for this.
For Paint, I will actually concede on them somehow forming and reverting back to their primordial state for the Lava Bubbles (technically they are already part paper there seen when you start removing it from them so I am already uncomfortable using them now if we are only focusing on paint's role for the dream worlds to be made) and thus have to become a form in order that they can dream, with them shifting back into that merged state with Bowser.
To newly question your point using the role of the Big Paint Stars, the only real difference between the rest of raw paint they expel and them is that they have black eye dots (which is hard to show on black paint). We really only have otherwise Black Bowser's interaction with being possessed by Black Paint covering him to prove individual clumps have their own sentience and minds/wills in their primordial form like the Big Paint Stars. The Mini-Paint Stars themselves, which are just clumps of paint too, are referenced as being alike besides only their size. So that is another train of thought that can hint the base state of paint has a similar physiology to sleep and potentially dream.
I will concede the paints not outright dreaming to begin with, since we don't have specific enough evidence for that type of "sleep" and it's a bad precedent to go with outright 2-A since some beings shouldn't be capable and shouldn't receive more than a possibly rating for this, if at all.
For Paper, I'm going to have to disagree. Once the paint is removed, the paper that makes up the Toads isn't special in their verse. The paper having paint added and then extracted shouldn't change its fundamental state once the parts are separated. It doesn't need to become something that gained the ability to dream after contact with paint and takes leaps to assume it changes instead of gets reverted back to its fundamental state. Paper starts out that way. There are statements that paper characters start out and need to be painted to become "alive" when they start as paper, with paint being a life-bringing substance:
Ex:
"There! Fresh as the day you were painted. Come back anytime!"
Characters and the narration show that paper that makes a Toad is as indistinguishable from the (scraps of) various papers that make up the setting: (eg. "restore color to a world made completely out of paper") and what characters that are killed turn into equivalent confetti after defeat. Also, a Paper Toad is not observed to be any different than a piece of envelope paper when Mario has a folded up one in his hands he takes out and only realizes the horror when he realizes the shape in the intro to Color Splash, having received mail on your average paper note before.
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 1,587
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Well, you have a point regarding the paint/paper, though since I don't know the games I can't really say much else. I'll pull back my main issue on it though I'm still agreement on 2-A. I'll what others think.
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Btw wouldn't that grant the void possibly infinite speed? Since now it can grow and reach infinite universes
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48 hours had passed
Mephistus
Username Only- 1,046
- 809
- Thread starter
- #77
Ok. Other than regular Princess Peach having her Pure Hearts key stripped away since she's not her paper character version as per the split thread conclusions and will need that separate thread linked to do those edit changes, the rest of the profiles have been updated accordingly by yours truly.
We still need these two unlocked:
vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
We still need these two unlocked:
Chaos Heart
Tier: 2-A Name: Chaos Heart Origin: Mario Bros Type: Giant artifact in the shape of a heart Powers and Abilities: A shield that protects its wielder(s) against any harm (Even against the Void when the wielder is a perfect host), Can slow the flow of time, Able to BFR multiple people into an...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Pure Hearts
Tier: 2-A Name: Pure Hearts Origin: Mario Bros Type: Eight artifacts in the form of hearts Powers and Abilities: Able to stop the power of the Chaos Heart, Power Nullification (Can negate resistances of either Count Bleck or Super Dimentio including Electricity Manipulation, Paralysis...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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They should be unlocked now.Ok. Other than regular Princess Peach having her Pure Hearts key stripped away since she's not her paper character version as per the split thread conclusions and will need that separate thread linked to do those edit changes, the rest of the profiles have been updated accordingly by yours truly.
We still need these two unlocked:
Chaos Heart
Tier: 2-A Name: Chaos Heart Origin: Mario Bros Type: Giant artifact in the shape of a heart Powers and Abilities: A shield that protects its wielder(s) against any harm (Even against the Void when the wielder is a perfect host), Can slow the flow of time, Able to BFR multiple people into an...Pure Hearts
Tier: 2-A Name: Pure Hearts Origin: Mario Bros Type: Eight artifacts in the form of hearts Powers and Abilities: Able to stop the power of the Chaos Heart, Power Nullification (Can negate resistances of either Count Bleck or Super Dimentio including Electricity Manipulation, Paralysis...
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Should I lock?
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