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Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

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StrymULTRA

StrymULTRA

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Introduction

Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse tiering exist on the site.

I think their stats are massively taken out of proportions.

So I am making this CRT.

The arguments

They're all in this document I made, given that otherwise it'll be too damn long. Also because I am not used in making Sandbox for this forum and still use Google Docs.

Please, it's very important to read all of it, otherwise this conversation cannot continue.

What am I proposing?

Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse cosmologies shall be split, and both will be 2-B.

Xenoverse 2-As will become 2-C (Xenoverse Chronoa and Pre-TokiToki Demigra get down to 4-B, as they should still be stronger than Cooler given they're both Kais after all and Xenoverse scales from TOEI).

Xenoverse 1 characters will become 2-C, but Xenoverse 2 characters will keep their 2-A rating, new justifications for AP with scans are here, current ones on pages are garbage.

Heroes 2-As will become 2-B.

Immeasurable speed becomes MFTL+ once again.

And now... Let's dance.
 
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Won’t take a side too soon, though I will agree Demigra’s justifications do look quite shaky. To my knowledge we’d treat statements of “controlling space and time” as just Space-Time Manipulation rather than AP (without further elaboration of what that “control” encompasses). Demigra explicitly needing to exploit a chain reaction to collapse the multiverse is also kinda weird if he could just blow it up with his 2-A power, though there could be an explanation for this I’m missing.

Also the widespread use of untranslated scans on the DBH profiles irks me

Though aside from these points I’ll stay neutral for the moment.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Won’t take a side too soon, though I will agree Demigra’s justifications do look quite shaky. To my knowledge we’d treat statements of “controlling space and time” as just Space-Time Manipulation rather than AP (without further elaboration of what that “control” encompasses). Demigra explicitly needing to exploit a chain reaction to collapse the multiverse is also kinda weird if he could just blow it up with his 2-A power, though there could be an explanation for this I’m missing.

Also the widespread use of untranslated scans on the DBH profiles irks me

Though aside from these points I’ll stay neutral for the moment.
Click to expand...
Can you tag staff members?

I'd like to tag also the following as those 3 are people who are actually knowledgeable about the verse: @Ottavio_Merluzzo @Dominodalek @Vietthai96 .

Edit: If statements of controlling space and time are not valid, won't it mean Heroes would be downgraded too? Because its main point for 2-A is TokiToki setting time in motion and manipulates all space-times for the blog.
 
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@Theglassman12 @Eficiente @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @AKM sama

@Dominodalek @Ottavio_Merluzzo @Vietthai96


StrymULTRA said:
Edit: If statements of controlling space and time are not valid, won't it mean Heroes would be downgraded too? Because its main point for 2-A is TokiToki setting time in motion and manipulates all space-times for the blog.
Click to expand...
If it’s elaborated that “control space and time” means he can like warp, create, or remake the multiverse (I’m assuming this is the case) then it should be fine for AP. If it’s left vague and undefined then I idk if that’d quantify for a Tier.
 
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I expect I'll be focusing primarily on the cosmology part of the blog in my responses to this thread - many of the AP points are redundant since we stopped using those arguments a while ago, and I've never been an ardent supporter of Immeasurable Speed.

I want to get this quickly out the way; the version of Trunks who appears in Jaaku Mission 6 is quite explicitly the one from Xenoverse. The article refers to him as "Trunks from DBXV", and his card is marked with the Xenoverse logo.
 
Dominodalek said:
I expect I'll be focusing primarily on the cosmology part of the blog in my responses to this thread - many of the AP points are redundant since we stopped using those arguments a while ago, and I've never been an ardent supporter of Immeasurable Speed.
Click to expand...
If we want to discuss this before the stats scaling then I guess we can settle it before talking about Demigra and the rest.
Dominodalek said:
I want to get this quickly out the way; the version of Trunks who appears in Jaaku Mission 6 is quite explicitly the one from Xenoverse. The article refers to him as "Trunks from DBXV", and his card is marked with the Xenoverse logo.
Click to expand...
Ok, but what about the various contradictions? Same about the dates. Because with all the contradictions and how the article was made months before even the demo release, I think is just promotional stuff and not literally cosmology merging.
 
There can't be Two Supreme Kais occupying the same position at the same time, hence why Agios clarified that she's the former Supreme Kai of Time and that she wants to claim back her position. That's the whole plot of UGM. Has got nothing to do with timelines.

Time Patrollers are taught stuff by Chronoa & Co. They're also the same people who explain how Parallel Quests work in detail to you in Xenoverse 2 (Remember that Namekian guy?). They're definitely knowledgeable on how history works,and thus should be trusted.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
There can't be Two Supreme Kais occupying the same position at the same time, hence why Agios clarified that she's the former Supreme Kai of Time and that she wants to claim back her position. That's the whole plot of UGM. Has got nothing to do with timelines.
Click to expand...
There should be only one Supreme Kai of Time, no matter how many histories there are.

From how Gohan said it, it does say that there can be only one Kai for all the timelines to be fair.
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Time Patrollers are taught stuff by Chronoa & Co. They're also the same people who explain how Parallel Quests work in detail to you in Xenoverse 2 (Remember that Namekian guy?). They're definitely knowledgeable on how history works,and thus should be trusted.
Click to expand...
I am aware, but is still a pretty big contradiction against the whole setting behind the creation of the Time Patrol.

An infinitely sized Time Nest would not make sense.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Ok, but what about the various contradictions? Same about the dates. Because with all the contradictions and how the article was made months before even the demo release, I think is just promotional stuff and not literally cosmology merging.
Click to expand...
Contradictions are liable to occur in massive multimedia franchises such as this, that doesn't disprove them being connected when we have explicit overlap.

While it is notable how relatively early they promoted XV Trunks, I fail to see what difference the timing makes.
 
Dominodalek said:
Contradictions are liable to occur in massive multimedia franchises such as this, that doesn't disprove them being connected when we have explicit overlap.
Click to expand...
When you literally have statements such as multiple Kaioshin of Time not being able to exist, no matter the amount of timelines, then you cannot really ignore that.

This is not a minor contradiction about how a character is potrayed, but is literally a cosmological setting which is a key to the story. You cannot just brush it off like that.
Dominodalek said:
While it is notable how relatively early they promoted XV Trunks, I fail to see what difference the timing makes.
Click to expand...
I think it can only be just promotion as I said, and nothing about an actual link between the two cosmologies.
 
The job of the Time Patrollers is to prevent history from being distorted and changed massively, small changes will be left behind.

The same Namekian Guy from XV2 tells us this :

Are you the Patroller who's on the critical mission? Everyone's talking about you! You know the great hero? But if you look very closely at each of the changes the hero made, you'll find slight imperfections in history. That's because those interventions were made by someone who never existed in the original timeline. Because of this, we can detect tiny fluctuations in history. That's why we have Parallel Quests. We can keep trying again and again to fix history completely, but we only ever get a fraction close to the correct version.


The same PQs are part of the time spaces that are separated from the official history in the Time Vault.

About the Overload thing : It only happened once, and Towa had to change all of history in all the scrolls at the same time for it to happen.

About Xeno Gohan : He's saying that there should be only One Supreme Kai to supervise the timelines, not that there can't be more in other timelines. The verse disagrees with that notion (SKoT Demigra, World Mission and UMX say hi to SDBH. They're all parallel timelines to it yet there's a Supreme Kai in each one of them. The Time Vault is copied across timelines too)

Last but not least , the scrolls being infinite is not so far fetched,as CC Goku's Timeline is the 76 Billionth one,and it's definitely not the last .
 
StrymULTRA said:
When you literally have statements such as multiple Kaioshin of Time not being able to exist, no matter the amount of timelines, then you cannot really ignore that.

This is not a minor contradiction about how a character is potrayed, but is literally a cosmological setting which is a key to the story. You cannot just brush it off like that.
Click to expand...
Just means there are parallel sets of timelines with a Supreme Kai of Time governing each, that's all.

StrymULTRA said:
I think it can only be just promotion as I said, and nothing about an actual link between the two cosmologies.
Click to expand...
In cases where stuff is "just promotion", for example when they promoted the Broly God 4-D movie or when they had a crossover with One Piece, they release it as a Challenge Mission. They could have done the same with XV Trunks, but they didn't.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
The job of the Time Patrollers is to prevent history from being distorted and changed massively, small changes will be left behind.

The same Namekian Guy from XV2 tells us this :

Are you the Patroller who's on the critical mission? Everyone's talking about you! You know the great hero? But if you look very closely at each of the changes the hero made, you'll find slight imperfections in history. That's because those interventions were made by someone who never existed in the original timeline. Because of this, we can detect tiny fluctuations in history. That's why we have Parallel Quests. We can keep trying again and again to fix history completely, but we only ever get a fraction close to the correct version.


The same PQs are part of the time spaces that are separated from the official history in the Time Vault.
Click to expand...
Ok I guess.
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
About the Overload thing : It only happened once, and Towa had to change all of history in all the scrolls at the same time for it to happen.
Click to expand...
Issue is that Chronoa merges the scrolls all the time, not just in that occasion. it wouldn't make sense if the Nest is infinitely-sized, as she wouldn't worry about having multiple scrolls of the exact same story if it had no size limit.

Infinity is always expanding after all, increasing an infinite amout of stuff with other infinity won't really change the amount as far as I recall.
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
About Xeno Gohan : He's saying that there should be only One Supreme Kai to supervise the timelines, not that there can't be more in other timelines. The verse disagrees with that notion (SKoT Demigra, World Mission and UMX say hi to SDBH. They're all parallel timelines to it yet there's a Supreme Kai in each one of them. The Time Vault is copied across timelines too)
Click to expand...
Ok, that is a good point.
Dominodalek said:
In cases where stuff is "just promotion", for example when they promoted the Broly God 4-D movie or when they had a crossover with One Piece, they release it as a Challenge Mission. They could have done the same with XV Trunks, but they didn't.
Click to expand...
Alright, I guess the cosmologies are still the same.

However, the point against an infinite amount of timelines still needs to be addressed.
 
Theglassman12 said:
I’ll wait for the supporters to give full context before I give my thoughts
Click to expand...
Honestly we can move this thread to the Content Revision board if staff does not reply.

Maybe I have overestimated how this CRT could be controversial, but I am not too sure lol.
 
I warned you before, I don't think staff members who are not knowledgeable in the verse can overvalue those who are heavily knowledgeable and respectful members. This is the most controversial thread for the verse, obviously people need to join and share their opinion.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Can you tag staff members?

I'd like to tag also the following as those 3 are people who are actually knowledgeable about the verse: @Ottavio_Merluzzo @Dominodalek @Vietthai96 .

Edit: If statements of controlling space and time are not valid, won't it mean Heroes would be downgraded too? Because its main point for 2-A is TokiToki setting time in motion and manipulates all space-times for the blog.
Click to expand...
In heroes has the mechikabura absorbing the entire verse as well.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Introduction

Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse tiering exist on the site.

I think their stats are massively taken out of proportions.

So I am making this CRT.

The arguments

They're all in this document I made, given that otherwise it'll be too damn long. Also because I am not used in making Sandbox for this forum and still use Google Docs.

Please, it's very important to read all of it, otherwise this conversation cannot continue.

What am I proposing?

Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse cosmologies shall be split, and both will be 2-B.

Xenoverse 2-As will become 2-C (Xenoverse Chronoa and Demigra get down to 4-B, as they should still be stronger than Cooler given they're both Kais after all and Xenoverse scales from TOEI).

Heroes 2-As will become 2-B.

Immeasurable speed becomes MFTL+ once again.

And now... Let's dance.
Click to expand...
I disagree on the downgrade
 
Appealing arguments but I'll withhold my agreement till I see arguments from the supporters of the verse for fairness sake.
 
Gogeta said:
nop. Some characters are already above the mechikabura itself, such as the fu. The toki toki em heroes was also able to recreate the entire sealed verse after mechikabura's absorption.
Click to expand...
I am aware that some people scale from Mechi exist lmao.

But not everyone would scale from him if TokiToki being 2-A is rejected.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I am aware that some people who scale from Mechi exist lmao.

But not everyone would scale from him if TokiToki being 2-A is rejected.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Tokitoki (Dragon Ball Heroes)

Tokitoki (トキトキ, Tokitoki?) is the divine God-Bird of Time who rules over all of space-time. Born 75 million years ago, Tokitoki has ever since protected the natural flow of time with his caretaker Chronoa. Tokitoki's impressive powers over space-time has made him a target of multiple villains...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Toki toki in his true form has a legitimate 2-A feat.
 
Gogeta said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Tokitoki (Dragon Ball Heroes)

Tokitoki (トキトキ, Tokitoki?) is the divine God-Bird of Time who rules over all of space-time. Born 75 million years ago, Tokitoki has ever since protected the natural flow of time with his caretaker Chronoa. Tokitoki's impressive powers over space-time has made him a target of multiple villains...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Toki toki in his true form has a legitimate 2-A feat.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but the likes of Base Heroes Demigra scale from his base.

If Base TokiToki is not 2-A, he'd be 2-C due to scaling from DogiDogi who can destroy the 12 universes.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Yeah, but the likes of Base Heroes Demigra scale from his base.

If Base TokiToki is not 2-A, he'd be 2-C due to scaling from DogiDogi who can destroy the 12 universes.
Click to expand...
well, I'll wait for other dbh advocates to make a better case for this.
 
Dread said:
You need to elaborate why you disagree. Simply disagreeing without clarification won't count.
Click to expand...
I disagree for the simple reason that the verse is not with DBS, DBH has feats 2-A, and feat of immeasurable speed, I don't want it to downgrade my favorite verse, even though I don't like DBH very much.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Wow what an argument, might ask to close this CRT given how detailed and accurate this debunk is.
Click to expand...
Today I woke up like Patati and Patatá, huh? There is a person who agreed with this nonsense without clarifying the reason, is it a rule to argue?
 
Dread said:
You need to elaborate why you disagree. Simply disagreeing without clarification won't count.
Click to expand...
I mean it does count it just doesn't have much weight to it.

I have my own reasons for disagreeing but I'll bring that up later
 
Theglassman12 said:
@StrymULTRA You should clarify the 2-C downgrade btw if that's what's being pushed here, given the OP it only sounds like you're just downgrading 2-A to 2-B, and not just downgrading a lot of the other folks who don't scale to 2-C.
Click to expand...
I am saying that if statements of "manipulating space-time" are not enough for a rating, then maybe most of Heroes characters who do not scale from Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura will become 2-C.

But I am unsure myself so I am not touching that yet.
 
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