Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

[GodlyCharmander]

Apparently, it is hot... the surface of it is, well, very wavy

True, but a ball of light that big would be hot as well. We do have to remember that the background is set by Flowery to be at a constant distance from the screen, we see this in his fight, so using parallax is not an option here.

Despite the fact we're spinning around the pillar plant, the background never changes. You can see that it's us that are spinning, not the pillar itself. In fact, the non-illusionary background does spin.

 

[Edutyn]

Btw I did the sun size based on it staying the same visible size even while coming hundreds of meters closer to it: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Breadbear83/Deltarune:_Chapter_5_Sun_Size

It's far higher, but also I'd like if I could get a raw sprite of the sun to know how many pixels wide is the sprite, would be lower but more accurate

(Also, that 170km distance of the sun from the POV would make the darkworld bigger than our standards for island level)

You should use this site. It's getting updated with the content of ch 5 so eventually it should have the sun sprite

 

[KaaydoManic]

True, but a ball of light that big would be hot as well. We do have to remember that the background is set by Flowery to be at a constant distance from the screen, we see this in his fight, so using parallax is not an option here.

Despite the fact we're spinning around the pillar plant, the background never changes. You can see that it's us that are spinning, not the pillar itself. In fact, the non-illusionary background does spin.

I don't think that the sun not spinning would be a good supporting evidence if you are trying to argue that this sun is fake. If we are in the designers' shoes, the sun spinning really quickly would kinda break the immersion and "coolness" of the fight. It's the first time in Deltarune that we get such a dynamic background for a battle, so I don't think it would be quite honest to have any expectation for it.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

True, but a ball of light that big would be hot as well. We do have to remember that the background is set by Flowery to be at a constant distance from the screen, we see this in his fight, so using parallax is not an option here.

Despite the fact we're spinning around the pillar plant, the background never changes. You can see that it's us that are spinning, not the pillar itself. In fact, the non-illusionary background does spin.

Isnt flowery a plant ? He probally using the "water" (aka it where shadow crystals come from) to reality warpe ?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think that the sun not spinning would be a good supporting evidence if you are trying to argue that this sun is fake. If we are in the designers' shoes, the sun spinning really quickly would kinda break the immersion and "coolness" of the fight. It's the first time in Deltarune that we get such a dynamic background for a battle, so I don't think it would be quite honest to have any expectation for it.

Speculating on that is not an argument, the background does spin in any other situation. Your personal opinion on immersion or coolness is not objective, and the background does change in all other scenarios, on top of the fact that the main point of the argument is how flowery himself summoned the sun. And it would also serve as support for when fake background fades away once Flowery is defeated and gives up on the world he's making for Asgore.

I could just as easily argue that having the background spin and showing all the seven colored suns would be just as immersive and 10 times as cool. But my argument would be one coming from a place of personal bias, and not an objective fact. You cannot use that, and you're also just blatantly wrong, it is NOT the first time Deltarune used a dynamic background for a fight.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Speculating on that is not an argument, the background does spin in any other situation. Your personal opinion on immersion or coolness is not objective, and the background does change in all other scenarios, on top of the fact that the main point of the argument is how flowery himself summoned the sun. And it would also serve as support for when fake background fades away once Flowery is defeated and gives up on the world he's making for Asgore.

I could just as easily argue that having the background spin and showing all the seven colored suns would be just as immersive and 10 times as cool. But my argument would be one coming from a place of personal bias, and not an objective fact. You cannot use that, and you're also just blatantly wrong, it is NOT the first time Deltarune used a dynamic background for a fight.

Just hear me bro plants can warp reality just like spamton and jevil

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Enjoy 7-B & Class T Deltarune before it gets nuked.

I will be busy this day, so i will correct things tomorrow. Any comentary to improve the calc is welcome!

Uh, first calc doesn't work because it assumed the RK afterimage would move the full 1.08m in a single frame, which is not correct, as your own reference image points it out, it moves in layers, so you'd have to measure the distance between each layer of afterimage, rather than the full length. Also it's 30 FPS not 60

In one frame, the after image moves 8 px, not the full length.

• Flowery: 424px/2.41m
• RK Afterimage: 8px = 8/424x2.41 = 0.0454716981m
• Timeframe: 1/30 = 0.0333333333s
• Afterimage Speed: 0.0454716981/0.0333333333 = 1.36415094m/s

That's about 60x lower, which would cut the final results by the same amount.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Chamander argument getting no-diff

 

[KaaydoManic]

Speculating on that is not an argument, the background does spin in any other situation. Your personal opinion on immersion or coolness is not objective, and the background does change in all other scenarios, on top of the fact that the main point of the argument is how flowery himself summoned the sun. And it would also serve as support for when fake background fades away once Flowery is defeated and gives up on the world he's making for Asgore.

I could just as easily argue that having the background spin and showing all the seven colored suns would be just as immersive and 10 times as cool. But my argument would be one coming from a place of personal bias, and not an objective fact. You cannot use that, and you're also just blatantly wrong, it is NOT the first time Deltarune used a dynamic background for a fight.

I haven't caught up with this thread that much, what are the arguments against the sun being an actual sun and what are the evidences that Flowery can control/summon the sun?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I haven't caught up with this thread that much, what are the arguments against the sun being an actual sun and what are the evidences that Flowery can control/summon the sun?

The arguments are more against its size than its property:

• The clouds pass behind the sun
• Susie questions how is there a sun in the dark world, indicating that it shouldn't be possible.
• There's a room where a fox is revealed to be a sun, mimicking it, revealing its true size (around 50 meters)
• Flowery can summon the sun as a background despite the fact they're inside the castle
• Flowery is shown to raise the sun as he transforms into Omega Flowery, and the sun's colors and height are based on his movements.
• It is said that everything about him is an illusion, that should include the sun he summons and the background that fades away at the end of the fight.
• Flowery states that Flowers left in darkness will perish, indicating the light produced by the 'sun' is fake.

 

[Da3ggman]

Definitely not Omega at that point, the other Flowers separated from him immediately after the battle (we see Blue heal him and Kris, and then we say goodbye to them as they turn back into their light world forms).

He’s definitely got some of the best overall stats out of any character, though I’d argue the Knight is still higher overall and Gerson is at least faster. Kris at their peak is relative to him, though Flowery hesitates in the final attack and also deals less damage once Kris is at half health (most players won’t even see this though due to how easy the fight is, so I’d say Kris is only slightly below Omega Flowery’s real stats).

Yeah I’d say base Flowery is above the Chapter 3/4 gang then. Susie was only able to match and chip The Knight’s sword with her axe, which has a far smaller surface area to focus power, making it easier to do shit like, well, clash with a sword and chip it lol.

Flowery managed to block and match the sword with just his arm, which is quite absurd when you think about it. Both get ****** by a single serious hit from The Knight so they’re below him but Base Flowery is not to be trifled with.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler

 

[Ti58]

Btw, Ralsei uses fire magic against the attacks of that beetle enemy from Ch5, meaning it did pose a threat to the fun gang therefore making it somehow city level.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yeah I’d say base Flowery is above the Chapter 3/4 gang then. Susie was only able to match and chip The Knight’s sword with her axe, which has a far smaller surface area to focus power, making it easier to do shit like, well, clash with a sword and chip it lol.

Flowery managed to block and match the sword with just his arm, which is quite absurd when you think about it. Both get ****** by a single serious hit from The Knight so they’re below him but Base Flowery is not to be trifled with.

Tbh part of me wonders if the Knight being able to nullify damage isn’t exclusive to fake statistics and is something they can just do to any damage. It would explain how they suddenly stop glitching after they swoon the Gang in Chapter 3, and if we’re putting Flowery above the Chapter 3 Gang it would explain why his damage was nullified to zero instead of an actual number.

Because yeah thinking about it, the Knight holding back doesn’t make blocking a sword with an arm any less crazy.

 

[Kellex]

True, but a ball of light that big would be hot as well. We do have to remember that the background is set by Flowery to be at a constant distance from the screen, we see this in his fight, so using parallax is not an option here.

Despite the fact we're spinning around the pillar plant, the background never changes. You can see that it's us that are spinning, not the pillar itself. In fact, the non-illusionary background does spin.

Not to mention Flowery has stated that he and the other flowers would've perished or withered away in the dark world even if they defeated the fun gang, and them being real plants instead of darkners or lightners mean they need real sunlight to stay alive.

So uh yeah, I also don't agree with the dark world sun being real either.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Not to mention Flowery has stated that he and the other flowers would've perished or withered away in the dark world even if they defeated the fun gang, and them being real plants instead of darkners or lightners mean they need real sunlight to stay alive.

So uh yeah, I also don't agree with the dark world sun being real either.

Okay but it still supposed be a sun tho even if it isnt real The Energy itself is real

 

[KaaydoManic]

The arguments are more against its size than its property:

• The clouds pass behind the sun
• Susie questions how is there a sun in the dark world, indicating that it shouldn't be possible.
• There's a room where a fox is revealed to be a sun, mimicking it, revealing its true size (around 50 meters)
• Flowery can summon the sun as a background despite the fact they're inside the castle
• Flowery is shown to raise the sun as he transforms into Omega Flowery, and the sun's colors and height are based on his movements.
• It is said that everything about him is an illusion, that should include the sun he summons and the background that fades away at the end of the fight.
• Flowery states that Flowers left in darkness will perish, indicating the light produced by the 'sun' is fake.

I don't see how most of those would suggest the sun having a different size than its real counterpart.

• This a visual phenomena that can happen, googling "clouds behind the sun" show similar results
• Her question makes sense considering something associated with light (the sun) shouldn't be in a place where there can only be darkness. I think that's more plausible reasoning behind her question rather than anything size related because she wasn't questioning the size of the Cyber World, that makes even more sense after she learned what Dark Worlds are in essence after Ralsei's explanation in Chapter 3.
• Where or when was it revealed to be around 50 meters, if this is through Pixel Scaling, that can be iffy
• I doubt that they are really in the castle during their fight with Flowery, Susie mentions how they just keep getting higher and higher, once at the climax of the battle and onward, we have seemingly reached a peak that seems to be outside (presence of grass flowing with the wind).
• Why would that suggest the sun has different size than a real sun?
• The issue with that line of reasoning is that anything he controls would also be fake, like the wind he uses most of the times. I don't really get why you(?) presuppose that the sun was summoned at the end of the fight (assuming you're referring to the moment right before he transforms into Omega Flowery) when we see it present since the beginning of the Chapter. More than anything, he mostly likely moved it. If by "background that fades away" you are referring to when Asgore talks to Kris, seems more like the sun setting down more rather than pure disappearance of the background. Makes sense considering the entire Chapter tells that the sun WILL go down at the end of it all.
• I don't really know what to say to this one for now, I don't think that's necessarily means that the sun is fake, but it would more so refer to the darkness that appears after the sun goes down, removing all the (pseudo) light that allows the flower to bloom.

I think you said earlier but generally in fiction, if there was no mention or suggestion that there is something up with the sun's size then the standard assumption is that it has the real-life sun proportion but there is no such idea or statement that suggest this in this Chapter as far as I am concerned, and those points don't either, they just show that the sun has special proprieties and most of them are made thanks to the ability of a character.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

The theory that the final tragedy will be the sealing of the Grand Fountain is picking up steam after Chapter 5, and I’m curious; Does anyone here think that will happen? And if it does, do you think the Darkners will permanently become normal items again or do you think there will be some solution that will bring them back?

Personally I don’t think the Darkners will permanently go away as:

• it contradicts the message of the game about escapism (that being it’s fine in moderation)
• It kinda spits in the face of Ralsei’s arc with him learning to be his own person and deserving to have his own desires and all that
• It would mean that Pink would lose her ideal body which just doesn’t sit right with me given the subtext
• It contradicts how Light and Darkness are meant to be in a “balance” of sorts (which itself is a reference to the game’s escapism themes)

 

[KaaydoManic]

The theory that the final tragedy will be the sealing of the Grand Fountain is picking up steam after Chapter 5, and I’m curious; Does anyone here think that will happen? And if it does, do you think the Darkners will permanently become normal items again or do you think there will be some solution that will bring them back?

Personally I don’t think the Darkners will permanently go away as:

• it contradicts the message of the game about escapism (that being it’s fine in moderation)
• It kinda spits in the face of Ralsei’s arc with him learning to be his own person and deserving to have his own desires and all that
• It would mean that Pink would lose her ideal body which just doesn’t sit right with me given the subtext
• It contradicts how Light and Darkness are meant to be in a “balance” of sorts (which itself is a reference to the game’s escapism themes)

I really think it's something bad that will happen to Susie, like her death or something. It's more impactful because we pretty much had more emotional investment in Susie than Castle Town (at least from my part and others), though Chapter 5 did give more warmth(??) with the thing it revealed.

(By the way, how do you make your text blurry like that) Oh I just find out

 

[Kellex]

(By the way, how do you make your text blurry like that)

Click the three dots next to the paint board and then select inline spoiler.
You can also type it in like this:

[ISPOILER]insert text here[/ISPOILER]

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh part of me wonders if the Knight being able to nullify damage isn’t exclusive to fake statistics and is something they can just do to any damage. It would explain how they suddenly stop glitching after they swoon the Gang in Chapter 3, and if we’re putting Flowery above the Chapter 3 Gang it would explain why his damage was nullified to zero instead of an actual number.

Because yeah thinking about it, the Knight holding back doesn’t make blocking a sword with an arm any less crazy.

Spoiler

Oh yeah also forgot to mention: when Susie clashed with the Knight it was while they were still glitching, but Flowery only clashed with the Knight after they stopped glitching, which further pushes the idea that Flowery is at least comparable to Chapter 3 Susie. You could also just argue that Flowery should be comparable to the other Flowers, which is something I somehow didn’t consider before now.

I genuinely think the Knight might be able to negate any form of stats-based damage, since it makes no sense how Flowey’s attacks would do zero real damage yet he can perform a similar feat to a character who can blatantly hurt them. The other explanation is that Flowery is really that weak and the Knight was sandbagging hard in the clash, but that doesn’t sit right with me anymore considering the deeper context.

I’m a bit iffy on if we should give an ability as powerful as that to the Knight without more explicit details, but scaling Flowery below the Chapter 3 Gang doesn’t sit right with me either.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Or just go my way, and say Knight is a glass cannon. It's AP is higher than it's durability, it just tends to sandbag against people it can legit one-shot.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Or just go my way, and say Knight is a glass cannon. It's AP is higher than it's durability, it just tends to sandbag against people it can legit one-shot.

I mean these two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive unless I’m missing something. The Knight is definitely a glass cannon.

 

[Omegabronic]

The theory that the final tragedy will be the sealing of the Grand Fountain is picking up steam after Chapter 5, and I’m curious; Does anyone here think that will happen? And if it does, do you think the Darkners will permanently become normal items again or do you think there will be some solution that will bring them back?

Personally I don’t think the Darkners will permanently go away as:

• it contradicts the message of the game about escapism (that being it’s fine in moderation)
• It kinda spits in the face of Ralsei’s arc with him learning to be his own person and deserving to have his own desires and all that
• It would mean that Pink would lose her ideal body which just doesn’t sit right with me given the subtext
• It contradicts how Light and Darkness are meant to be in a “balance” of sorts (which itself is a reference to the game’s escapism themes)

The prophecy says "the WORLDS will be saved" aka, both LIGHT and DARK WORLDS... so I don't believe that's the case

 

[Randomuser3412]

Or just go my way, and say Knight is a glass cannon. It's AP is higher than it's durability, it just tends to sandbag against people it can legit one-shot.

Maybe a "glass cannon" in the way that its AP is higher than its durability, yes... but the Knight is still like top 3 most durable characters so far.

 

[Omegabronic]

Spoiler

Oh yeah also forgot to mention: when Susie clashed with the Knight it was while they were still glitching, but Flowery only clashed with the Knight after they stopped glitching, which further pushes the idea that Flowery is at least comparable to Chapter 3 Susie. You could also just argue that Flowery should be comparable to the other Flowers, which is something I somehow didn’t consider before now.

Spoiler

Flowery

Flowery is the leader of the 7 Colored Flowers that composed Asgore and Toriel's wedding bouquet. He is the main antagonist and final boss of Chapter 5 of Deltarune, first appearing in the Garden when the Party first encounter him.

deltarune.wiki

Come on guys... i said this before

 

[Breadbear83]

The arguments are more against its size than its property:

• The clouds pass behind the sun
• Susie questions how is there a sun in the dark world, indicating that it shouldn't be possible.
• There's a room where a fox is revealed to be a sun, mimicking it, revealing its true size (around 50 meters)
• Flowery can summon the sun as a background despite the fact they're inside the castle
• Flowery is shown to raise the sun as he transforms into Omega Flowery, and the sun's colors and height are based on his movements.
• It is said that everything about him is an illusion, that should include the sun he summons and the background that fades away at the end of the fight.
• Flowery states that Flowers left in darkness will perish, indicating the light produced by the 'sun' is fake.

The fox one is bad cuz it's common thing that a small object, when reaching the sun from millions of kilometers, a pixel of them can still be seen, but the pixel ratios just cannot represent the sheer distance well

That's just gives a possible low-ball of how faraway is the sun, and how big it is

If the sun is real, it would be at least several kilometers big, cuz it remains at the same visible size even while looking it from faraway in the cliffs, and from the castle, the castle being so far away from the cliffs for asgores and flowery becoming nearly 1 pixel when heading there

The other arguments would rather invalidate it being a realistic sun in size (not a whole star) or physically (if it's an illusion)

(Also, for all of us the discussion is aiming at this scaling to dark world creation (rather than about the sun creation, it being too faraway makes the darkworld bigger), and so the titan scaling?, cuz I don't really see it being intended that omega flowery was lifting a big ass sphere, it was for the aura)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Spoiler

Flowery

Flowery is the leader of the 7 Colored Flowers that composed Asgore and Toriel's wedding bouquet. He is the main antagonist and final boss of Chapter 5 of Deltarune, first appearing in the Garden when the Party first encounter him.

deltarune.wiki

Come on guys... i said this before

Yellow was hungry or smth

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler

Flowery

Flowery is the leader of the 7 Colored Flowers that composed Asgore and Toriel's wedding bouquet. He is the main antagonist and final boss of Chapter 5 of Deltarune, first appearing in the Garden when the Party first encounter him.

deltarune.wiki

Come on guys... i said this before

Before i just justified that as him using fake stats, but I was probably overcomplicating it. If we use the idea that the Knight can nullify all damage, then it would probably be simpler to just make Flowery comparable to the other Flowers.

 

[Edutyn]

Ralsei propaganda

 

[Edutyn]

 

[Epiccheev]

This weird route was the best so far. The tension was absurd

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Jevil upscale

 

[Edutyn]