Dragon Ball Lifting Strength Revision

[Qurbonboev]

Like, it always seems like the authors think increasing gravity is harder than lifting something heavy;

They (authors) are right.
Character muscles could dish out million of tons of force, but if their heart isn't strong enough to push blood to head and muscles under strong gravity, they would be useless, and char would eventually lose consciousness.
So ordinarily, char not taking higher gravity that well shouldn't be considered LS anti feat.
But in this particular case intent is pretty clear that it's increased body weight from gravity that hinder performance, not anything overtly specific (see here and here)

I am neutral on this CRT

 

[Lonkitt]

We're really overcomplicating an author simply not caring to align numbers with feats, there's got to be a better way to solve this.

Not really? The OP's evidence is pretty clear. There's a lot of anti-feats that make it clear Dragon Ball's current LS scalings aren't accurate

What the OP is suggesting is completely reasonable

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not really? The OP's evidence is pretty clear. There's a lot of anti-feats that make it clear Dragon Ball's current LS scalings aren't accurate

What the OP is suggesting is completely reasonable

There's an equal amount of evidence proving that these numbers do not reflect accurate capabilities performed by these characters and that the numbers are NOT respected even in the SAME CHAPTER they are introduced, nor are they expected or revisited for accuracy in either direction.

What OP is suggesting is replacing an inconsistent rating for another one, we're just choosing to ignore blatant feats in favor for statements, instead of ignoring statements for feats.

So yes, this IS overcomplicating a simple issue that we're speculating, "oh it's because it decreases ki", "oh it's because gravity can f up your muscles"

It's because Toriyama was freestyling 80% of the story, that's it, that's all there is to it. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Arguing for anything else is bogus, what we NEED to decide is whether we care more about dynamic writing, or statements when it comes to indexing verses, and, bringing this up AGAIN, we definitely favor dynamic writing as a standard in this wiki, on screen feats that make statements ludicruous are mostly prioritized because it's also just as canon as the writing that "contradicts" them.

CW flash being mentioned for a third time because it's too blatant of an example to brush aside, why do we index him as FTL+ to MFTL+ if he "narratively" caps at Mach 20? Because we argued that on-screen feats are a factor of writing that matters way more than statements made by writers who didn't gaf about accuracy, and indexing a characters being unable to perform the feats they had to perform in their own story is genuinely INSANE.

 

[Lonkitt]

There's an equal amount of evidence proving that these numbers do not reflect accurate capabilities performed by these characters and that the numbers are NOT respected even in the SAME CHAPTER they are introduced, nor are they expected or revisited for accuracy in either direction.

Are there really? Because from what I've seen in this thread (and from my own experience reading the manga), the LS anti-feats outweigh the feats by quite a large degree. Not to mention, some of the stuff used right now is pretty iffy and far from reliable, such as that Class G feat from Freeza pushing Goku. On the topic of that feat, the OP brought up how there's also issues with how that calc was done too. Are we really trusting faulty, inflated calcs over repeated instances of LS being on a much lower end within Dragon Ball?

What OP is suggesting is replacing an inconsistent rating for another one, we're just choosing to ignore blatant feats in favor for statements, instead of ignoring statements for feats.

What blatant feats? Again, I haven't seen any evidence of there being more blatant, high end feats than there are anti-feats

So yes, this IS overcomplicating a simple issue that we're speculating, "oh it's because it decreases ki", "oh it's because gravity can f up your muscles"

That's what Null was saying, I was just explaining how Null's explanation on gravity and weights wasn't specifically a Ki nerfing thing in-verse

It's because Toriyama was freestyling 80% of the story, that's it, that's all there is to it. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Arguing for anything else is bogus, what we NEED to decide is whether we care more about dynamic writing, or statements when it comes to indexing verses, and, bringing this up AGAIN, we definitely favor dynamic writing as a standard in this wiki, on screen feats that make statements ludicruous are mostly prioritized because it's also just as canon as the writing that "contradicts" them.

Since when did the OP or anyone else claim that Toriyama wasn't writing that way? Of course Toriyama was freestyling, but I don't see how that suddenly makes a ton of anti-feats that are overwhelming in the face of high end ratings not worth addressing

Don't really see why this was worth bringing up, it doesn't support anyone's side in this thread....

CW flash being mentioned for a third time because it's too blatant of an example to brush aside, why do we index him as FTL+ to MFTL+ if he "narratively" caps at Mach 20? Because we argued that on-screen feats are a factor of writing that matters way more than statements made by writers who didn't gaf about accuracy, and indexing a characters being unable to perform the feats they had to perform in their own story is genuinely INSANE.

That's whataboutism. CW Flash is irrelevant here. I especially don't get why you'd bring it up after talking about Toriyama's writing style and then bringing up a show with multiple writers and a vastly different writing style

This is Dragon Ball

It's also worth noting that a lot of the "insane" Dragon Ball feats are generally AP feats. Not LS feats...

 

[Omegabronic]

There's an equal amount of evidence proving that these numbers do not reflect accurate capabilities performed by these characters and that the numbers are NOT respected even in the SAME CHAPTER they are introduced, nor are they expected or revisited for accuracy in either direction.

What OP is suggesting is replacing an inconsistent rating for another one, we're just choosing to ignore blatant feats in favor for statements, instead of ignoring statements for feats.

So yes, this IS overcomplicating a simple issue that we're speculating, "oh it's because it decreases ki", "oh it's because gravity can f up your muscles"

It's because Toriyama was freestyling 80% of the story, that's it, that's all there is to it. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Arguing for anything else is bogus, what we NEED to decide is whether we care more about dynamic writing, or statements when it comes to indexing verses, and, bringing this up AGAIN, we definitely favor dynamic writing as a standard in this wiki, on screen feats that make statements ludicruous are mostly prioritized because it's also just as canon as the writing that "contradicts" them.

CW flash being mentioned for a third time because it's too blatant of an example to brush aside, why do we index him as FTL+ to MFTL+ if he "narratively" caps at Mach 20? Because we argued that on-screen feats are a factor of writing that matters way more than statements made by writers who didn't gaf about accuracy, and indexing a characters being unable to perform the feats they had to perform in their own story is genuinely INSANE.

You do know the OP shows several feats in basically every point and not just statements, right? It isn't "bunch of feats vs bunch of statements" it is "bunch of feats vs bunch of antifeats that also have statements atached to them", it isn't the same situation as The Flash's at all so your example doesn't work, if they were as high as the calculations suggest they wouldn't be failing to lift things tens to thousands of times lower than said calculations, like Tien struggling with Goku's weights or Vegeta being completely unable to lift Mageta

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why are we making these long of a post for debating common sense...

from what I've seen in this thread (and from my own experience reading the manga), the LS anti-feats outweigh the feats by quite a large degree

Read the thread again, this is absolutely incorrect, both me and @Eden_Warlock99 have pointed out feats.

Are we really trusting faulty, inflated calcs over repeated instances of LS being on a much lower end within Dragon Ball

Do we need calcs to point out that a "40kg shell" anti-feat and pushing a boulder bigger than a HOUSE in the SAME CHAPTER is a genuine evidence that the numbers don't matter?

Don't really see why this was worth bringing up, it doesn't support anyone's side in this thread

It would really make this conversation easier if you read the conclusion to my argument instead of just the premise to support it.

That's whataboutism. CW Flash is irrelevant here

An example that perfectly encapsulates the current situation and reveals our site's standards on the exact same matter isn't whataboutism. The reason you refuse to engage with the argument is because you genuinely don't have a response. Address it, or simply stop responding. It's. the. same. sitaution.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You do know the OP shows several feats in basically every point and not just statements

Oh wow, what an irrelevant correction to a point that wouldn't change the stance. Read my post, the anti-feats do not outweigh the feats whatsoever.

it isn't the same situation as The Flash's at all so your example doesn't work

It's LITERALLY IDENTICAL. Flash has moments and anti-feats that would put him at subsonic, or at the same level as the statements he has, and several MFTL+ feats that would make the statements ridiculous. I've literally examplified HOW it's a valid comparison and your response is a big "nuh uh".

 

[Omegabronic]

Oh wow, what an irrelevant correction to a point that wouldn't change the stance. Read my post, the anti-feats do not outweigh the feats whatsoever.

Considering your comparison to the Flash was purely "statements vs feats"... yeah no, by your own example, it is very relevant, specially when the number of anti feats outweights the number of feats + the anti feats are narratively relevant for how the characters grow in power and train, them having statements all through out the series supporting the anti feats also doesn't help your case, if the series is saying verbatim that a character CAN'T do something and then they SHOW that they, in fact, CANNOT, then it has far more weight(kek get it?) to it than fan calcs the author didn't thought about

Doesn't help the Mageta point is literally an important aspect of the fight... if Vegeta could lift that much... why was he completely unable to do so?

It's LITERALLY IDENTICAL. Flash has moments and anti-feats that would put him at subsonic, or at the same level as the statements he has, and several MFTL+ feats that would make the statements ridiculous.

If it is identical... then downgrade the Flash in another thread too? What you want me to say? If he has as much of theb"anti feats +statements to feats" ratio as DB does then he should be downgraded accordinly... i sincerely don't get why you would think "two wrongs make a right" applies here

I've literally examplified HOW it's a valid comparison and your response is a big "nuh uh".

You quite literally only talked about statements in your earlier post... don't pretend you didn't... also no, my response goes into details... don't be rude please

 

[Omegabronic]

An example that perfectly encapsulates the current situation and reveals our site's standards on the exact same matter isn't whataboutism.

Unless it is written in the rules it isn't a standard... someome making a wrong upgrade to a character is nothing but that, a mistake, nothing more

 

[Lonkitt]

Why are we making these long of a post for debating common sense...

Every time I see the term "common sense" in these forums, people are always using it incorrectly

Like damn, sorry for responding to each point instead of just going "nuh uh"

Read the thread again, this is absolutely incorrect, both me and @Eden_Warlock99 have pointed out feats.

Yeah, I did read those. Chariot already brought up the problems with those. Also worth noting that even accounting for those...the lower end feats from the OP as well as the lower end feats that both you and Eden brought up still outweighed the higher end stuff by, like, a pretty huge degree. Not to mention, you're treating the OP as if they're riding off statements alone which is far from true. On your end, you posted a long post listing feats that supposedly prove your point, even going over specific weights and whatnot, but um...I'm legit not seeing any math...at all....there's a lot of assumptions made in your post and not a ton of links to back it up. You say stuff like "Oh that tree stump is likely this heavy" and "the car lift is probably around here". A lot of guesstimates. That's why calc blogs show the math, measurements, etc.

It's kinda hard to take your big post as crushing proof in your favour when most of it comes off as "dude, trust me, it's probably this heavy". Compare this to the OP who actually does show off the math

The feats brought up in defence of the current LS ratings are either outliers, not providing enough evidence, or are faulty

Do we need calcs to point out that a "40kg shell" anti-feat and pushing a boulder bigger than a HOUSE in the SAME CHAPTER is a genuine evidence that the numbers don't matter?

What's that gotta do with the Freeza Class G calc? Don't avoid what I said, answer me. Are we really trusting the inflated Freeza calc right now when it's been proven to be inflated and faulty?

Also, of course numbers matter, we're talking about feats and calcs

It would really make this conversation easier if you read the conclusion to my argument instead of just the premise to support it.

Yep, I read it like the first time I responded. Don't know what Toriyama's writing style has to do with this even after I read it. You could've cut out that entire part of that segment of the post and it literally changes nothing

Being condescending isn't helpful

An example that perfectly encapsulates the current situation and reveals our site's standards on the exact same matter isn't whataboutism. The reason you refuse to engage with the argument is because you genuinely don't have a response. Address it, or simply stop responding. It's. the. same. sitaution.

No...? It's just whataboutism. CW Flash and DB are very different verses, why are you bringing it up here? Playing the "what about this verse" game here isn't helping anyone. Seriously, why are you going on about some "You refuse to engage because you don't have a response blah blah blah", like no dude, you bring up Toriyama's freestyle writing as a point before talking about a show with tens of writers and different plot structuring/planning just so you can say "there's anti-feats in statements all the time", despite how this thread isn't even relying on statements

Also, I'd suggest not talking about "you don't have a response" when you completely avoided what I brought up about the Freeza Class G calc

 

[Sparkive]

I don't know about the rest of the feats, but moving the giant rock (the ultimate goal of the training before the first tournament) seems more important to me than the 40 kg shells, especially if they're from the same chapter.

 

[Lonkitt]

I don't know about the rest of the feats, but moving the giant rock (the ultimate goal of the training before the first tournament) seems more important to me than the 40 kg shells, especially if they're from the same chapter.

That's still just one feat against multiple anti-feats. The giant rock alone in the face of those anti-feats isn't reliable

 

[Stefano4444]

We're really overcomplicating an author simply not caring to align numbers with feats, there's got to be a better way to solve this.

Like i say before, i think the best solution would be going with a compromise rating, have the higher LS feats as only possibly rating rather than just discard all of them as mere outliers, while the ones proposed by the CRT shall be the baseline/main scaling, in this way i think it would soddisfy both sides.

Something like this:

At least Peak Human/Superhuman/Class 1/Class 10/Class 25/Class 50, possibly Class 25/Class K/Class M/Class G/Class T.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Chariot's taking wayyy too long to make his response, so Ig this will have to do.

Are there really? Because from what I've seen in this thread (and from my own experience reading the manga), the LS anti-feats outweigh the feats by quite a large degree.

(*) I went ahead and compiled ALL the LS feats throughout this continuity of DB.
And this is the result.

Pilaf Saga

• Goku lifts and throws a pretty big tree stump (Around Class 5)
• Goku lifts Bulma's car overhead and throws it (Class 1)
• Goku lifts and crushes a boulder (Class 5)
• Bear Thief, that Goku one-shots, carries and swings a huge sword (Like Class 10?)
• Great Ape Goku can lift and fling a large section of Pilaf’s castle (Around Class 100 I'd imagine)

Tournament Saga

• Roshi and Goku can push a boulder (Class 5)
• After more training, Goku can now push an even bigger boulder (Class K)
• Once they complete their training, Goku and Krillin are able to jump over the clouds (Class K)
  • This comes up again when Nam performs his own cloud jump (Another Class K feat) and Goku follows suit by doing the same. It's how Goku ends up winning the match itself so it is very much relevant to the narrative.
• Great Ape Goku lifts and flings a section of the tournament stadium (Around Class 50 I'd imagine)

Red Ribbon Saga

• General Blue lifted a Phone Booth and crushed it in between his arms (Around Class M?)
• Tao threw a pillar at 10,000 KPH (Class M)
  • Tao does this twice.
• Goku stops the Pilaf Machine's rocket (Around Class K)

22nd Budokai Onward

• Krillin flips a giant in the Preliminaries (Around Class 25)
• Yajirobe tossed a boulder at Goku, with enough force to smash it to pieces (Like Class 5?)
• Bora tosses both Yajirobe and Goku far above the clouds (At least Class K)
• Chi Chi follows Goku into the air (Class 5)
• 23rd Goku knocks Giant Piccolo over before swinging him through the air by his finger (Class K)
  • Piccolo Jr. can still move effectively as a giant, despite this transformation explicitly not increasing his power.

DBZ

• Saiyan Saga Vegeta pulls/blows away a storm and Goku resists it (Class T to E) [sus cloud feat]
• Great Ape Gohan picks up a massive boulder (Class K)
• Goku withstands being pushed against solid rock (Even with the fixes OP mentioned, it still comes out to nearly Class M)
• Cell lifts up a chunk of land with his TK (Class G)
• SSJ Gohan pulls out the Z-Sword (At least Class M)
  • Even Base Gohan (So can Goku) can lift and swing the Z-Sword around despite it being so heavy that it sinks into the ground (Class M)
  • Btw the pulling calc doesn't take the Z-Sword's weight into account, as to why I added the "At least"
• Base Goku lifts up a boulder and was fully intending to throw it at Gohan (Class 25)

Daima

• Tamagami Number Three can swing around their hammer with ease (Like Class K)
  • Base Miniku can clash evenly with them, and this is with the Third Demon World's heavier air that makes it harder to move.
• Base Miniku briefly stops a swing and pushes back a Megath Child's hand (@Null estimates it to be Class M)
  • For the record, in comparison to the Megath, Miniku and co are shorter than their dog's equivalent of a single poil and are around the size of ticks.
• Third Eye Gomah used his TK to make the final Daima Arena (It's pretty huge so probably like Class G)
  • Gomah loves using his TK in battle and SSJ3 Miniku breaks free from it.

Totaling at a MASSIVE 27 FEATS (While discarding the cloud feat cause it's sus) that completely eclipse the 19 anti-feats OP brings up. And btw it should be even less than 19, considering the Giran throw ends up at Low Class 5 by the OP’s own admission, a.k.a. directly contradicts the weighted clothing anti-feats from that same period. That and using Goku's Gravity ad nauseam as a bunch of anti-feats instead of treating it as a single one feels incredibly redundant.

Let's compare this to JJK. What actually got discarded in favor of the Mach 3 cap there? Like 2 to 3 feats max?
Here, you’d be throwing the MAJORITY in the outlier box. It would be completely unprecedented.

Plus, last I checked, calling stuff outliers is supposed to be a last resort of sorts, something you ought to avoid unless there’s genuinely no other option.
Doing that to such an absurd amount of feats is just, straight-up insanity.

Chariot already brought up the problems with those.

Besides just calling them outliers in comparison to the anti-feats, which like, no shit, and that the bigger guys are stronger in terms of LS, which is... wrong? (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C), he also argues that Ch1 Goku putting in effort to lift Bulma’s car invalidates the other feats.

Ignoring for a second that literally no fictional verse has perfectly consistent LS scaling, the car feat still contradicts the anti-feats!

I already used this example but I'll use it again. I can lift around 40 kg tops. Now imagine I strap a 1 kg laptop to my back. Do you seriously think that would meaningfully hinder my movement? Because that’s what a 20 kg weight did to a Goku supposedly capable of deadlifting over a ton. Look at him!

And this is always the problem with these anti-feats, **** in the same arc Goku is supposedly heavily affected by those 18 kg weights, Piccolo goes giant and can still move effectively (Even outright being noted to be just as fast) despite that form explicitly not giving a power boost, and then Goku flips him over!
It's honestly almost funny how the series just refuses to cooperate with it the stated values lol

What's that gotta do with the Freeza Class G calc? Don't avoid what I said, answer me.

It still ends up at Class K after the fixes, that's to say over the cap.

It isn't "bunch of feats vs bunch of statements" it is "bunch of feats vs bunch of antifeats that also have statements atached to them"

And I really don't understand this? What’s the actual difference between a writer stating "Oh boi 40 Tons is too much" versus writing it and showing it? Do we think the characters who can sense their own power are somehow less aware of what they can or can’t lift just because it’s conveyed through dialogue?
Jolyne saying she can’t break prison bars is still an anti-feat whether she says it or tries and fails, Kris not being able to move the controls in Queen’s Arcade Machine is still an anti-feat whether we see the attempt or are simply told about it.

But that's still what they are, anti-feats. And they're still a dime a dozen in comparison to the real feats.

Doesn't help the Mageta point is literally an important aspect of the fight... if Vegeta could lift that much... why was he completely unable to do so?

You know what's also real important to the plot? Goku and Krillin moving that massive boulder (Class K) after finishing their training, it kinda was used to drive their motivation to keep training afterall. You know what's also real important to the plot? Them removing their shells and jumping to the heavens (Class K) to show their progress, in fact this bad boy comes up again when Nam does it and Goku follows suit. It's the reason why Goku ends up winning that match at all.

So question, how is a brief interaction like Vegeta struggling with Magetta supposed to be more narratively meaningful than that?
Actually the Magetta thing doesn’t even occur in the anime, right? Did that shit even come from Toriyama lol

No...? It's just whataboutism. CW Flash and DB are very different verses, why are you bringing it up here?

It's understandable to think it's whataboutism, but like they are literally the exact same situation.

Spoiler: CW Flash

For all the uproar it generated, the statements in that show were actually consistent with each other and show a clear progression of speed
Barry starts out at subsonic in season 1, reaches Mach 1.1 mid-season and eventually, Mach 2 at the end of the season with all sorts of mental amps
The same statements have him at Mach 3 or so in season 2
By season 5, the statements increased to the infamous "just over mach 7"
At the end of the series (season 9), he was noted to move at Mach 20
That's consistency
What trumps feats over statements in this case is that the writers are hilarious unreliable at best and blatantly wrong at worst. That's why they can say something like "3 billion Joules = 3 megatons" and a host of other wrong shit

I'm not too familiar with it tbh, but just going off this clip alone, it doesn’t look like it's just statements placing the cap. Like the stated values are reinforced by Flash visibly struggling and pushing himself to reach like, Mach 1.1 in this case.

And it's somewhat worth pointing out, cause some people agreeing with this thread, don't think we should cap CW Flash, or don't seem like it at least.

the flash has idiots as writers. jjk does not. different battles

---

(*) Another thing I noticed while rereading DBZ is this frankly amazing example that really sets home just how incoherent the weighted clothing stuff is.
This here, is Piccolo.

He was just recently resurrected and transported from King Kai’s 10G planet to the regular 1G Namek, as evidenced by Bulma walking around on it just fine. By all logic, his weights should barely matter (Given he's used to them x10) and they realistically shouldn’t affect his combat ability anymore.
Skip forward a bit and he fuses with Nail, going from generously a bit above Nail’s 42,000 PL to a whopping ~1 MILLION PL, enough to contend with Second Form Frieza.
If his weighted clothing didn't feel like nothing at the start, they most definitely should now! And yet, the moment he starts falling behind against Frieza, he removes the weights and everybody treats it like he had a big power boost, so much so that Frieza himself immediately decides to transform further instead of continuing the fight as-is.

Does this make sense? No! It's nonsensical, it's stupid.

Not only are the early examples of weighted clothing wildly inconsistent with the rest of the series, so much so that they reduce characters who are constantly portrayed as blatantly superhuman into the human ranges. But the DBZ examples can't even stay internally consistent with themselves!
Throwing away the majority of feats and basing the entire ratings on something so inconsistent just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 

[Padaruyos]

Putting on my Nuance™ cap for a moment.

Still neutral. But here's my two cents.

I think both sides have a valid point here.

On OP's side.

Toriyama's authorial intention is clearly around the level of what OP outlined. He clearly meant for post Saiyan Saga Goku to be struggling with 6 tons of body weight in the Namek Spaceship's 100G generator (he even made Dr. Brief say that 6000 kg number specifically). He clearly meant for Goku to be struggling with 10x gravity on King Kai's planet (620 kg personal weight). He clearly meant for pre 21 WT Goku and Krillin to struggle with 20 kg and later 40 kg training shells. He clearly meant for Buu Saga Base Goku to struggle with 40 tons of additional limb weight without turning Super Saiyan. Etc etc etc.

That much is clear. Toriyama has a pretty clear idea in his mind of how strong his characters are in terms of lifting strength (he literally wrote the numbers down), and ideally, we should scale characters as close as possible to what the authors had in mind.

On the opposing side.

But authorial intention isn't limited to just "Character A can do X thing with Y numbers" direct statements. "Show don't tell" also means its often better to show the character doing X stuff to showcase their capabilities instead of using statements. And Toriyama also clearly isn't shy drawing his characters blowing up entire planets.

And factoring into that, we run into contradictions almost immediately with his lifting strength numbers upon opening the manga.

Chapter 1 showcases an on panel feat of Goku lifting away and throwing Bulma's car.

Bit of a tangent. That car is explicitly, very clearly, a Renault 5 Turbo. Renault's rally homologation special. I happen to be a car enthusiast and recognized that car model on sight. The weird fenders. The air intakes nearby the rear wheels due to the car's mid engine layout. The hatchback shape. The freaking "TURBO" emblazoned on its car doors. It is unambiguously a Renault 5 Turbo.

Here's an entire video about the Renault 5 Turbo. If you want to watch it, its actually a pretty interesting car.


Toriyama is also a gearhead. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60146623/dragon-ball-akira-toriyama-obituary/ . While he's most famously known for Dragon Ball for obvious reasons, he's also really good on drawing machine illustrations and its a bit of an underappreciated part of his arts. https://www.zimmerit.moe/akira-toriyama-mechanical-designs/

The Renault 5 Turbo is also subtle characterization on Bulma herself. A 16 year old city girl who was rich enough to buy and casually drive around a limited production WRC homologation special and one of the fastest road cars of its time (it was genuinely Ferrari level fast). The modern equivalent would be a teenager driving around in a Lamborghini Aventador and even that is missing the "limited production enthusiast car" angle. It shows us Bulma is a mechanically inclined rich city girl before we even hear her talk for the first time.

The point is this tangent is that Toriyama know exactly what he's doing when he made Goku able to lift and throw away Bulma's Renault 5 Turbo. This isn't "generic small car." He knew what the car is, what its like to drive, why Bulma is driving one. He may not know/memorize the car's exact curb weight (around 980-1000 kilograms) in mind when drawing that panel, but he definitely had a rough idea in his mind on how heavy the car is and how impressive would it be for Goku to throw it. He absolutely intended Goku to be strong enough to lift and throw away a Renault 5 Turbo with Bulma inside. (At the very least a 1000+ Kg lifting feat, fan made calcs aside). A few pages later, he also made Goku able to tank bullets. Meaning he didn't do this on a whim and clearly intended to showcase that Goku is superhumanly powerful.

And then he made a 20 to 40 kg shell on Goku's back during Master Roshi's training later on to be a significant level of hindrance. A level of extra body weight that exists and IS used for training in real life by ordinary athletic people.

Both of these are true. Toriyama intended both of these to be true. They just happen to be contradictory.

For reference. Here are Amazon listings of real life weighted vests, some of which can eclipse the 40 kg turtle shell by a significant margin. According to this document the official US Army guideline on a soldier's recommended max fighting load (the minimum necessary stuff a soldier needs to carry all the time when live bullets are already flying) is 48 lb (22 kg) while the max approach march load (all the necessary gear a soldier carries while moving to their objective) is 72 lb (33 kg). A Marine is expected to march 20 miles in eight hours while carrying this level of weight. In practice however, these guidelines are routinely exceeded, with this GAO report stating soldiers are actually carrying a total load of 117-119 lb. (53-54 kg)

So 20 to 40 kg isn't even all that high even compared to real life metrics. It simply does not make sense for superhuman characters to even be inconvenienced by this level of weight. And yet it did.

The Giant Piccolo thing, again.

Chapter 177 shows Goku removing 115 kg of weight to be a significant enough factor to speed blitz Tien. Going as far as removing his belt without Tien being able to perceive Goku's movements. Previously they were even. Simply removing 115 kg is a speed blitz level amp for Goku. Toriyama intended this. He even directly stated the number.

And then. Ten chapters later. Toriyama made Goku fight a Piccolo that grew to THIS big. (Wtf)

Notice the cracks nearby Piccolo's feet. This transformation clearly adds mass. Heavy enough for Piccolo to crack the floors by just standing.

Goku, for the most part, isn't concerned about the size increase (see scans below). And in DBS later on Piccolo explicitly states his giant transformation, explicitly the same thing he used on the 23rd tournament against Goku that he also used against Cell Max, doesn't actually increase his power. And that its mostly a bluff.

If removing 115 Kg from Goku is a speedblitz level amp. Then Piccolo turning into a building (Tournament announcer even calls it "Mountain sized") sized giant with an absolute bare minimum mass increase (ridiculously low) of 2 tons (a modern hybrid sedan weighs this much, Piccolo also cracked the ground just by standing) should turn him into a statue. And yet, he keeps up with Goku just fine. Roshi even stated Piccolo's speed is the same despite his size increase. Meaning whatever extra mass Piccolo had by turning giant is completely insignificant compared to his LS (since its the same as a giant or not), which makes no sense if a mere 115 kg extra weight is the difference between a speed blitz or not.

And unlike the previous car lifting example. Additional body weight via weighted clothing and turning yourself into a giant is mechanically, the same thing. You can't really separate the two types of liftings like you could with the previous example.

Toriyama intended Piccolo to be an extremely heavy giant and can move just as fast without a strength boost. Toriyama also intended for 115 Kg to be a significant weight increase, enough to negate a blitz level speed advantage. Both of these are true. Both of these are within just 10 chapters of each other in the same arc. The fact that they contradict each other is also true.

I don't think I need to repeat this with the other feats and anti feats in OG DB. (Like the boulder)

Conclusion(?)

Honestly I kinda forgot what was even I arguing about halfway down making this post.
Anyways. My actual 2 cents here is that Toriyama's insistence (? for a lack of a better word) to draw a somewhat consistent timeline of physical strength growth via weight values, gravity multiplication, statements, and explicit limits/caps (see: OP) are great but heavily contradicts the actual things he draws. He seems to intend both of these things to be true. And in canon, they might be? Somehow. If it were up to me. I'd suggest an Unknown rating across the board. Or a compromise rating as @Stefano4444 said. Though the minimum should at least be Superhuman since Toriyama's intention is clearly that Goku is way stronger than normal humans.
But what do I know. I'm not a staff member and I'm frankly not that well versed about Dragon Ball LS related topics. Anyways, that's my 2 cents

 

[Damage3245]

@Eden_Warlock99 Not all of those feats should be counted here as some are lifting strength feats accomplished by telekinesis and not the character's pure physicals. Lifting strength ratings accomplished through telekiensis can and have been rated separately from Lifting Strength accomplished through the character's own physical strength.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

@Eden_Warlock99 Not all of those feats should be counted here as some are lifting strength feats accomplished by telekinesis and not the character's pure physicals. Lifting strength ratings accomplished through telekiensis can and have been rated separately from Lifting Strength accomplished through the character's own physical strength.

Two are TK feats. The first one is Cell's, which he didn't use against Gohan. You'd think if he had a perfect counter against Gohan, he'd use it, no?
But ehh, I'll give you that.

The second one, is Gomah's.
SSJ3 Miniku BREAKS OUT OF IT.

 

[Damage3245]

Two are TK feats. The first one is Cell's, which he didn't use against Gohan. You'd think if he had a perfect counter against Gohan, he'd use it, no?
But ehh, I'll give you that.

The second one, is Gomah's.
SSJ3 Miniku BREAKS OUT OF IT.

There's also Vegeta "pulling in" clouds / a storm, which even amidst that list of Lifting Strength feats clearly stands out as being completely disconnected from the rest and isn't currently accepted for use IIRC.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There's also Vegeta "pulling in" clouds / a storm, which even amidst that list of Lifting Strength feats clearly stands out as being completely disconnected from the rest and isn't currently accepted for use IIRC.

Yeah? I outright even say that I didn't count it as part of the total?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah? I outright even say that I didn't count it as part of the total?

Ah apologies, I overlooked that part of your comment in the brackets.

 

[KingTempest]

That goku pushed through stone feat is terrible and should not be measured how it is, scrap that. Throw away the TK ones, and that storm can't scale to Goku cause of surface area

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@Eden_Warlock99 Not all of those feats should be counted here as some are lifting strength feats accomplished by telekinesis and not the character's pure physicals. Lifting strength ratings accomplished through telekiensis can and have been rated separately from Lifting Strength accomplished through the character's own physical strength.

Telekinesis can and have been used to immobilize characters in the franchise before, even by weaker characters.

It is a reliable method of restrainment, yet, Cell never remotely attempted to use it against SSJ2 Gohan even after getting desperate enough to use a form he himself considered useless. This is literally the narrative saying that Gohan wouldn't be restrained by Cell's TK.

 

[Vietthai96]

That goku pushed through stone feat is terrible and should not be measured how it is

Reason? You can't simply discard feat without reason

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That goku pushed through stone feat is terrible and should not be measured how it is, scrap that. Throw away the TK ones, and that storm can't scale to Goku cause of surface area

Here's the thing, even if you measure the feat properly, it will still be a contradiction to 100kg being relevant, by far. So it's still a point against OP

 

[Lonkitt]

Chariot's taking wayyy too long to make his response, so Ig this will have to do.

Tf? No, I don't speak for him

 

[Lonkitt]

There's also Vegeta "pulling in" clouds / a storm, which even amidst that list of Lifting Strength feats clearly stands out as being completely disconnected from the rest and isn't currently accepted for use IIRC.

It isn't used because it shouldn't be used. That is not a legitimate or useable LS feat like....at all

 

[Lonkitt]

It is a reliable method of restrainment, yet, Cell never remotely attempted to use it against SSJ2 Gohan even after getting desperate enough to use a form he himself considered useless. This is literally the narrative saying that Gohan wouldn't be restrained by Cell's TK.

That's genuinely just headcanon. Provide actual proof that Cell considers his TK to be useless against Gohan

Considering the lack of proof, I think the best explanation is the simplest: the real reasoning for Cell not using TK is that he doesn't use it in battle in-character

 

[Kroneii1]

12.2. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 234 - Base Goku below 40 tons / SSJ Goku handles 40 tons:

Not sure about using this, do we have information about the place where goku lift the 40 tons and the gravity of that place compared to earth?

 

[Lonkitt]

Not sure about using this, do we have information about the place where goku lift the 40 tons and the gravity of that place compared to earth?

There's no statements that place the gravity of Heaven any heavier than Earth. Ergo, 40 tons is 40 tons there

 

[Padaruyos]

That's genuinely just headcanon. Provide actual proof that Cell considers his TK to be useless against Gohan

Considering the lack of proof, I think the best explanation is the simplest: the real reasoning for Cell not using TK is that he doesn't use it in battle in-character

When Pre Kamikaze PC was getting curb stomped by SSJ2 Gohan he was effectively throwing random stuff to the wall and see what sticks. He went as far as using a gigantification form that was probably a mix of Namekian giant form (zero strength increase, completely useless) and/or SSJ Grade 3 (does have strength increase but much slower, Cell called it useless when Trunks uses it). The fact that he tried that and not telekinesis is telling.
Cell has Frieza's cell and techniques. He knows how to use it. He DID use it. And Frieza who he shares some personality with DID use it against Goku on Namek. It's clearly combat applicable.
Cell didn't use it against Goku during the Cell Games because he was just having fun. But he IS throwing everything at SSJ2 Gohan. If Cell has such a large LS advantage over SSJ2 Gohan using TK he would use it and pin Gohan down.
The fact he didn't either means Cell thinks it wouldn't work against Gohan, which is a high bar when he tried the useless form already. Or he did subtly try to use it and it also didn't work. Or Toriyama just forgot (wouldn't be the first time). First two would mean Gohan scales. Last is just PIS.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Stefano4444's solution to me seems like an effective one that will make both sides happy.

 

[Lonkitt]

Stefano4444's solution to me seems like an effective one that will make both sides happy.

Tf, no? That's just throwing every possible rating at the wall and going "all of 'em ig". We are not inflating the profiles with a billion LS ratings

When Pre Kamikaze PC was getting curb stomped by SSJ2 Gohan he was effectively throwing random stuff to the wall and see what sticks. He went as far as using a gigantification form that was probably a mix of Namekian giant form (zero strength increase, completely useless) and/or SSJ Grade 3 (does have strength increase but much slower, Cell called it useless when Trunks uses it). The fact that he tried that and not telekinesis is telling.
Cell has Frieza's cell and techniques. He knows how to use it. He DID use it. And Frieza who he shares some personality with DID use it against Goku on Namek. It's clearly combat applicable.
Cell didn't use it against Goku during the Cell Games because he was just having fun. But he IS throwing everything at SSJ2 Gohan. If Cell has such a large LS advantage over SSJ2 Gohan using TK he would use it and pin Gohan down.
The fact he didn't either means Cell thinks it wouldn't work against Gohan, which is a high bar when he tried the useless form already. Or he did subtly try to use it and it also didn't work. Or Toriyama just forgot (wouldn't be the first time). First two would mean Gohan scales. Last is just PIS.

If Cell was truly "throwing random stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks" then he would've truly used everything, including his TK...which he didn't. He used his Powered Up state to try overpowering Gohan (despite the fact it was obviously a bad idea), got bodied, and that was the end of it

The fact that he didn't use TK isn't "telling". Cell was having an ego death and wasn't exactly thinking all that straight in the moment

So no, this isn't sound evidence of Gohan scaling of the TK LS at all. This is headcanon on you and Charmander's part. The fact that Cell didn't use his TK is just a case of him not using it in-character. Hell, he doesn't use it against anyone else either...just because Freeza used his TK doesn't mean Cell would. And no, Cell's a different character. Even if he has traits that resemble Freeza (as well as his DNA), that doesn't mean he would do what Freeza did. Similarly, there's tactics that Cell uses (which Freeza could have utilized) that Freeza just doesn't try out himself. I've seen a similar notion from DB supporters that someone like Yamcha would use Ki techniques that he just...doesn't use in-character

Y'all are giving Gohan way too much credit. Sometimes, a character like Cell just doesn't use their TK LS to their advantage. Shit happens I'm afraid

 

[Nierre]

Honestly I'm inclined to vote for Unknown for all their Lifting Strength ratings, because as the opposition has made very clear, the authorial intent is high-key all over the place.

And it's telling that the supporters of the OP are effectively cherry picking which LS feats @Eden_Warlock99 posted "don't count" rather than engaging with the entire post, the fact that even if you remove 2-5 feats there that may not be valid, that is still an incredible amount of feats, many of which are very much narratively important, just as the anti-feats are, which is the point of her post.

So put my vote for Unknown, the feats just seem too inconsistent to pin down imo.

 

[Qurbonboev]

That's just throwing every possible rating at the wall and going "all of 'em ig". We are not inflating the profiles with a billion LS ratings

No? Every profile would just have two different ratings, one based on statements, one based on feats, not billions of them

 

[Lonkitt]

No? Every profile would just have two different ratings, one based on statements, one based on feats, not billions of them

See, one of the problems I'm seeing with the opposition is that they're assuming the anti-feats are all statements based which is literally untrue

 

[Kroneii1]

There's no statements that place the gravity of Heaven any heavier than Earth. Ergo, 40 tons is 40 tons there

Apparently, this guide mentions that "the stress on his body exceeded 100G," so the 40-ton weight would actually be higher. I'm not sure if the translation is correct, but if it is...

 

[Lonkitt]

Apparently, this guide mentions that "the stress on his body exceeded 100G," so the 40-ton weight would actually be higher. I'm not sure if the translation is correct, but if it is...

The link isn't opening up at all, so if there's a translations there, I'm not seeing it

 

[AyOgUyS]

See, one of the problems I'm seeing with the opposition is that they're assuming the anti-feats are all statements based which is literally untrue

Well most of the anti-feats involve stated weights of objects that characters struggle with or are unable to lift, but as Eden and Charmander have stated, such instances are actually the minority in comparison to greater feats that while do not have solid statements, are still incredibly impressive just using common sense.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

See, one of the problems I'm seeing with the opposition is that they're assuming the anti-feats are all statements based which is literally untrue

How is that relevant?

 

[Qurbonboev]

See, one of the problems I'm seeing with the opposition is that they're assuming the anti-feats are all statements based which is literally untrue

My bad. Meant:
One rating, based on OP examples (weight and gravity training statements and feats)
Another based on feats, unrelated to it.

So profiles wouldn't have billion ratings, only two.
(I am neutral on this question)