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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

It was accepted to have Speedforce layered. As Speedforce on own is from Deep Change and zero evidence how SBP Prime affected Deep Change. So I don't think that works
 
The chain of events explaining Superboy Prime’s relation with the Speed Force is as follows:

The Flashes exhausted the entire Speed Force to imprison Superboy Prime in it - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #4.

Later he escaped from the Speed Force and the Flash states that they (the Flash Family) could not hold him there - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #5.

It is revealed that the Flashes kept Superboy Prime under Red Sunlight yet he still found a way to escape - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. Why and how is there red sunlight in the Speed Force? Who knows.

NOTE: Superboy Prime also built his Anti-Monitor solar enhancement armor while inside the Speed Force. How did he manage this? Who knows.

Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to catch up with him - The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol1 #6.

Superboy Prime would later exhibit “Flashphobia” due to his time in the Speed Force.

Conclusion: Everything related to Superboy Prime has already been discussed in depth over the last 10 or more pages. It is time to move on and discuss other things.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
The chain of events explaining Superboy Prime’s relation with the Speed Force is as follows:

The Flashes exhausted the entire Speed Force to imprison Superboy Prime in it - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #4.

Later he escaped from the Speed Force and the Flash states that they (the Flash Family) could not hold him there - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #5.

It is revealed that the Flashes kept Superboy Prime under Red Sunlight yet he still found a way to escape - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. Why and how is there red sunlight in the Speed Force? Who knows.

NOTE: Superboy Prime also built his Anti-Monitor solar enhancement armor while inside the Speed Force. How did he manage this? Who knows.

Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to catch up with him - The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol1 #6.

Superboy Prime would later exhibit “Flashphobia” due to his time in the Speed Force.

Conclusion: Everything related to Superboy Prime has already been discussed in depth over the last 10 or more pages. It is time to move on and discuss other things.
Click to expand...
Bro I hope you will use scans(some imgur, imgchest) next time

it is very good that you refer every comic book but lowkey people might be lazy for skimming through comics to find that
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
The chain of events explaining Superboy Prime’s relation with the Speed Force is as follows:

The Flashes exhausted the entire Speed Force to imprison Superboy Prime in it - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #4.

Later he escaped from the Speed Force and the Flash states that they (the Flash Family) could not hold him there - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #5.

It is revealed that the Flashes kept Superboy Prime under Red Sunlight yet he still found a way to escape - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. Why and how is there red sunlight in the Speed Force? Who knows.

NOTE: Superboy Prime also built his Anti-Monitor solar enhancement armor while inside the Speed Force. How did he manage this? Who knows.

Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to catch up with him - The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol1 #6.

Superboy Prime would later exhibit “Flashphobia” due to his time in the Speed Force.

Conclusion: Everything related to Superboy Prime has already been discussed in depth over the last 10 or more pages. It is time to move on and discuss other things.
Click to expand...
What else to be discussed. But yeah, we've already talked to much about prime.
btw I would like to see what upgrade you would make to Lucifer.
 
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Antvasima said:
Anyway, ALEPHGOAT has been banned due to being relentlessly hostile and toxic and requesting it himself, but he does seem to have made good arguments about our ridiculously inflated DC Comics and Marvel Comics tiering, that I think we should take into serious consideration. 🙏

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...ce,_in_a_Blog#DC_Dimensional_Tiering_Is_False

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...rce,_in_a_Blog#Marvel_Comics_Cosmology_Debunk
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His argument result in a collapse of the tiering system to 3-A to high 3-A.
 
I was thinking that we could here simply consider all of his arguments for Marvel and DC specifically, as they seem logical, rather than his arguments for our tiering system as a whole, which I have asked some of our most knowledgeable staff members about in private instead. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, ALEPHGOAT has been banned due to being relentlessly hostile and toxic and requesting it himself, but he does seem to have made good arguments about our ridiculously inflated DC Comics and Marvel Comics tiering, that I think we should take into serious consideration. 🙏
Q
https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...ce,_in_a_Blog#DC_Dimensional_Tiering_Is_False

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...rce,_in_a_Blog#Marvel_Comics_Cosmology_Debunk
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His stuff was a tad simplified and the feats do outweigh anti feats

Besides in modern Canon they're more consistenly treated as outer if we use the mainline books

Also the fact that with his standards FTL would be impossible without hax

Edit: He is right about Post Crisis stuff tho it's filled with bullshit in that regard

Pre Crisis is notoriously more busted and varied

New 52 sucks

20s Rebirth is consistent at least if we take into account mainline books
 
KirbyFan03 said:
His stuff was a tad simplified and the feats do outweigh anti feats

Besides in modern Canon they're more consistenly treated as outer if we use the mainline books

Also the fact that with his standards FTL would be impossible without hax

Edit: He is right about Post Crisis stuff tho it's filled with bullshit in that regard

Pre Crisis is notoriously more busted and varied

New 52 sucks

20s Rebirth is consistent at least if we take into account mainline books
Click to expand...
From a power scaling perspective you can get similar ratings if we use stuff strictly from the 2020s onwards
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, ALEPHGOAT has been banned due to being relentlessly hostile and toxic and requesting it himself, but he does seem to have made good arguments about our ridiculously inflated DC Comics and Marvel Comics tiering, that I think we should take into serious consideration. 🙏

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...ce,_in_a_Blog#DC_Dimensional_Tiering_Is_False

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...rce,_in_a_Blog#Marvel_Comics_Cosmology_Debunk
Click to expand...
1. We agreed the fact that DC doesn't have Infinite Dimensions via last conversations here. @ProfectusInfinity blog already covers that
2. AP and DC has zero correlation. Just because Character A has Attack Output of Building Level doesn't mean Character A should destroy Building Level, it means character capable of hurting someone who can destroy building or tank building level attacks. In that case user's concerns mostly comes from Destruction Capability of characters not correlating with their AP. If this was ever case in VSBW we would have debunked almost every Dragon Ball characters for them not destroying planets in every battle.
3. Most of his doubts are non-sequitur. As well our wiki even allows to have Tier 0 having avatars. So I don't see reasons like that even being able to nuke 1-A:

Refutation: This requires that the avatar be completely ontologically separate from the true self, which contradicts the scaling in the other direction. When powerscalers use the same character's statements or feats to establish 1-A, they treat the avatar as a valid representative of the true self. You cannot have the avatar count for positive feats and not count for negative ones. That is the unprincipled exception in its purest form. Additionally, if the true self is genuinely R>F transcendent, it should be impossible for it to produce an avatar that exists within the fiction at all, because any such avatar would itself be fictional, meaning the true self authored a fictional construct, which cannot be harmed by other fictional constructs by definition. So the avatar anti-feat either counts against the true self or the avatar was never meaningfully connected to the true self, in which case all positive avatar feats are equally void.
Click to expand...

Not to mention this completely ignores we allow avatars creation, this creates illogical conclusion of our Tier 1-A whereas Ultima mentions True Self of Reality capable of traveling into Fiction.

And things like that already explained in DC. For example World Forger confirms that he loses his true powers when traveling to lower world, whereas Scott Snyder confirms basically higher beings get stronger in their BDE realm while traveling to lower realm they qualitatively decrease their powers. It is not implying that we give every herald possible 1-A for traveling into Metaphysical Worlds since worlds in DC somewhat automatically changes their size but it wasn't proven how just traveling into higher realm via special dimensional travel makes heralds capable of hurting higher beings. Superman literally needed Sun from 6th Dimension to damage World Forger for example. In same run we see before he completely unable to damage or stretch WF otherwise. I am not saying we should scale one to another via this. Just trying to explain some of DC's functionality.
3. Most of points come from how R > F functions itself. Which again as I said previously comes from how VSBW tiering system works not various fiction. You can be doubtful, skeptical about it. And nothing wrong with it. For example PsBattles and All Fictions Battles like Wikis treat R > F very context dependant to scale whereas R > F in VSBW straight up 1-A if no anti feats present. And well most of points again like 1-A having "physicality", "avatar", "traveling to fiction" comes to debating Ultima not DC. This has nothing to do with DC/Marvel Cosmology

But well except absurdity I discovered in user's blog I find somethings that can be really anti feat for example

This is from the DC All In Special that was the lead into the Absolute Universe last year at the time of writing (BTW read all the Absolute books rn, they’re peak). And in the build up to Dark Crisis, Darkseid spent his time re-gathering all his emanations to build up strength, which kinda violates the idea that a qualitatively superior being shouldn’t have their power be divisible into something quantitative or that adding up can lead you to some level of qualitative level. All this would subsequently affect other realms in DC Cosmology based on their positions around the Godsphere and Monitors Sphere. The Fifth Dimension for instance seems to peak at the same plane as the Sphere of The Gods, as Gods like Janus could terrorize it.
Click to expand...

If this is case, this can be pretty bad anti feat. I don't remember All In Special events, so there is probably some context(and notice we literally don't see scans from user blog) so I will leave it to @Elizio33 or @PromptedElephant641 to explain context if it exists here.

Ngl I do have personal concerns about current DC Cosmology but I find most of points in user's blog not really relevant about how strange tiering DC has rn.
 
Hecky2222 said:
1. We agreed the fact that DC doesn't have Infinite Dimensions via last conversations here. @ProfectusInfinity blog already covers that
2. AP and DC has zero correlation. Just because Character A has Attack Output of Building Level doesn't mean Character A should destroy Building Level, it means character capable of hurting someone who can destroy building or tank building level attacks. In that case user's concerns mostly comes from Destruction Capability of characters not correlating with their AP. If this was ever case in VSBW we would have debunked almost every Dragon Ball characters for them not destroying planets in every battle.
3. Most of his doubts are non-sequitur. As well our wiki even allows to have Tier 0 having avatars. So I don't see reasons like that even being able to nuke 1-A:



Not to mention this completely ignores we allow avatars creation, this creates illogical conclusion of our Tier 1-A whereas Ultima mentions True Self of Reality capable of traveling into Fiction.

And things like that already explained in DC. For example World Forger confirms that he loses his true powers when traveling to lower world, whereas Scott Snyder confirms basically higher beings get stronger in their BDE realm while traveling to lower realm they qualitatively decrease their powers. It is not implying that we give every herald possible 1-A for traveling into Metaphysical Worlds since worlds in DC somewhat automatically changes their size but it wasn't proven how just traveling into higher realm via special dimensional travel makes heralds capable of hurting higher beings. Superman literally needed Sun from 6th Dimension to damage World Forger for example. In same run we see before he completely unable to damage or stretch WF otherwise. I am not saying we should scale one to another via this. Just trying to explain some of DC's functionality.
3. Most of points come from how R > F functions itself. Which again as I said previously comes from how VSBW tiering system works not various fiction. You can be doubtful, skeptical about it. And nothing wrong with it. For example PsBattles and All Fictions Battles like Wikis treat R > F very context dependant to scale whereas R > F in VSBW straight up 1-A if no anti feats present. And well most of points again like 1-A having "physicality", "avatar", "traveling to fiction" comes to debating Ultima not DC. This has nothing to do with DC/Marvel Cosmology

But well except absurdity I discovered in user's blog I find somethings that can be really anti feat for example



If this is case, this can be pretty bad anti feat. I don't remember All In Special events, so there is probably some context(and notice we literally don't see scans from user blog) so I will leave it to @Elizio33 or @PromptedElephant641 to explain context if it exists here.

Ngl I do have personal concerns about current DC Cosmology but I find most of points in user's blog not really relevant about how strange tiering DC has rn.
Click to expand...
100% agree even if I wouldn't even type that long
 
Hecky2222 said:
it would be better if you addressed what I asked for in end
Click to expand...
The avatar fusion? I'll ping you in the thread in cord with the scans of gods being type 2 AE and how that possibly could imply that Darkseids avatars fused with his godhead

Iirc Dr. Multiverse lampshades this by saying IF Darkseid is all the multiverses evil condensed in a single being
 
Antvasima said:
I was thinking that we could here simply consider all of his arguments for Marvel and DC specifically, as they seem logical, rather than his arguments for our tiering system as a whole, which I have asked some of our most knowledgeable staff members about in private instead. 🙏
Click to expand...
When we allowed marvel and dc to be composite, the inflated statistics were allows bound to happen.
 
KirbyFan03 said:
The avatar fusion? I'll ping you in the thread in cord with the scans of gods being type 2 AE and how that possibly could imply that Darkseids avatars fused with his godhead

Iirc Dr. Multiverse lampshades this by saying IF Darkseid is all the multiverses evil condensed in a single being
Click to expand...
Or Alternatively the omega energy his avatars contained became condensed in him since omega energy is the omega effect/force
 
Vro, staffs.......input pls

vsbattles.com

High 3A New 52 Doomsday + Other High 3A Heralds Upgrade For New 52 Heralds

Doomsday broke the phantom zone with his punches , destabilizing the the entire zone (batman/superman 2013 issue 11). The cover of the issue literally says new 52 so this should scale to new 52 doomsday This would be a high 3A feat because the phantom zone is already accepted on this site as an...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

@Emirp sumitpo
@Elizio33
@Antvasima

I wanna get this done so I can make more stuff
 
Wirtzwest said:
When we allowed marvel and dc to be composite, the inflated statistics were allows bound to happen.
Click to expand...
They aren’t composite though, if they were composite then golden age and silver age and post crisis and post flashpoint and rebirth would all have the same profiles, but they aren’t, using everything canon and something being composite are two different things
 
I was skimming through justifications of what has been accepted recently from @Frankky123 thread, and I wonder about this
Passive Limited Plot Manipulation (Superboy-Prime, as the representation of reader, is aware that DC often reboots stories, so Superman cannot be permanently killed and always comes back, This makes Superboy-Prime state that his death doesn't matter anymore.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Rebirth)#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)
Click to expand...
This is not Plot Manipulation, Plot Manipulation is ability to control plot.

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.
Click to expand...


From what we see in justification it tells it is DC Who writes stories and Superman is reliant, due to it comes back always. This is Immortality

4: Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.
8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place, and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.
Click to expand...

This doesn't mean "Uhhhh badddd not controlling story", it means you need essentially to nuke whole DC story to get rid over Superman. As well justification reads as not Superman being able to control, but as long as plot exists Superman cannot die. This should be more Immortality Type 4, 8 rather than Plot Manipulation

But i guess you can say his passive plot manipulation is changing plot to revive himself via writers help, so you can keep it while with Immortalities
 
Hecky2222 said:
This doesn't mean "Uhhhh badddd not controlling story", it means you need essentially to nuke whole DC story to get rid over Superman. As well justification reads as not Superman being able to control, but as long as plot exists Superman cannot die. This should be more Immortality Type 4, 8 rather than Plot Manipulation

But i guess you can say his passive plot manipulation is changing plot to revive himself via writers help, so you can keep it while with Immortalities
Click to expand...
This makes sense to me.
 
Hecky2222 said:
I was skimming through justifications of what has been accepted recently from @Frankky123 thread, and I wonder about this

This is not Plot Manipulation, Plot Manipulation is ability to control plot.




From what we see in justification it tells it is DC Who writes stories and Superman is reliant, due to it comes back always. This is Immortality



This doesn't mean "Uhhhh badddd not controlling story", it means you need essentially to nuke whole DC story to get rid over Superman. As well justification reads as not Superman being able to control, but as long as plot exists Superman cannot die. This should be more Immortality Type 4, 8 rather than Plot Manipulation

But i guess you can say his passive plot manipulation is changing plot to revive himself via writers help, so you can keep it while with Immortalities
Click to expand...
www.ign.com

Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison - IGN

Last week DC Comics wrapped up what is easily one of the most controversial storylines in modern comics. Final Crisis ended with a bang, with the fate of Superman, Batman and the entire Multiverse ending in some controversial ways. Reaction from the community was split down the middle as some...
www.ign.com www.ign.com

Here's what i thought :

Morrison: Yeah, completely. As you know, from the very start of this, it was kind of me trying to do a 'final' statement on DCU superhero comics before I go off and have a rethink. Unmaking the DC Universe to the point of destruction then showing how its own internal rules will work to homeostatically reset it. Superman always saves the day or he's not Superman. It's a self-perpetuating idea. So I wanted to get in everything I felt about that, and I knew it was ambitious, but I actually do think we nailed it.

Morrison: Yeah, pretty much. The fact that in the DC Universe there is a story about a genuinely good and moral man who can't be beat,

Morrison: Yeah, totally. Because it all derived from Superman. I mean, I love all the characters, but Superman is just this perfect human pop-culture distillation of a really basic idea.

I just think Morrison's ideas, that Superman always saves the day, a good moral man who can't be beat, and the heart of the DC. make Superman protected by the Story of Superman(the story of a child rocketed to Earth from a doomed planet, created to be indestructible), so Superman cant be killed permanently just as Superboy prime stated and sometimes can become stronger in order to oppose whatever enemy or threat stands in front of him. As a result, the story where evil win is rewritten.

Superman doesnt rewrite the story consciously, but Story of Superman does.

Is this sounds too metaphorical?

cmiiw
 
Last edited:
Frankky123 said:
www.ign.com

Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison - IGN

Last week DC Comics wrapped up what is easily one of the most controversial storylines in modern comics. Final Crisis ended with a bang, with the fate of Superman, Batman and the entire Multiverse ending in some controversial ways. Reaction from the community was split down the middle as some...
www.ign.com www.ign.com

Here's what i thought :

Morrison: Yeah, completely. As you know, from the very start of this, it was kind of me trying to do a 'final' statement on DCU superhero comics before I go off and have a rethink. Unmaking the DC Universe to the point of destruction then showing how its own internal rules will work to homeostatically reset it. Superman always saves the day or he's not Superman. It's a self-perpetuating idea. So I wanted to get in everything I felt about that, and I knew it was ambitious, but I actually do think we nailed it.

Morrison: Yeah, pretty much. The fact that in the DC Universe there is a story about a genuinely good and moral man who can't be beat, and the fact that the DC Universe exists in the real world means that humanity made up a story about a genuinely moral man who can't be beat.

Morrison: Yeah, totally. Because it all derived from Superman. I mean, I love all the characters, but Superman is just this perfect human pop-culture distillation of a really basic idea.

I just think Morrison's ideas, that Superman always saves the day, a good moral man who can't be beat, and the heart of the DC. make Superman protected by the Story of Superman(the story of a child rocketed to Earth from a doomed planet, created to be indestructible), so Superman cant be killed permanently just as Superboy prime stated and sometimes can become stronger in order to oppose whatever enemy or threat stands in front of him. As a result, the story where evil win is rewritten.

Superman doesnt rewrite the story consciously, but Story of Superman does.

Is this sounds too metaphorical?

cmiiw
Click to expand...
works

Hecky2222 said:
But i guess you can say his passive plot manipulation is changing plot to revive himself via writers help, so you can keep it while with Immortalities
Click to expand...
 
Hecky2222 said:
Content thread revision obviously
Click to expand...
The idea that the Story of Superman is at the heart of the DC makes me think that Superman is essential to stories. Considering that he is the face of superheroes, suggests that his role is fundamental and needed in the narrative, This leads to the concept of "Story of a child rocketed to earth from a doomed planet, one created to be indestructible" which makes him :
1.) Sometime got self empowerment to oppose threat leads to rewriting narratives in which evil would otherwise triumph.
2.) Or at least he always comes back by a rebooted story.

So, can we still keep Plot Manipulation? I need suggestions on revision.
 
Frankky123 said:
The idea that the Story of Superman is at the heart of the DC makes me think that Superman is essential to stories. Considering that he is the face of superheroes, suggests that his role is fundamental and needed in the narrative, This leads to the concept of "Story of a child rocketed to earth from a doomed planet, one created to be indestructible" which makes him :
1.) Sometime got self empowerment to oppose threat leads to rewriting narratives in which evil would otherwise triumph.
2.) Or at least he always comes back by a rebooted story.

So, can we still keep Plot Manipulation? I need suggestions on revision.
Click to expand...
You can have both if you suggest justifications you sent above
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, ALEPHGOAT has been banned due to being relentlessly hostile and toxic and requesting it himself, but he does seem to have made good arguments about our ridiculously inflated DC Comics and Marvel Comics tiering, that I think we should take into serious consideration. 🙏

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...ce,_in_a_Blog#DC_Dimensional_Tiering_Is_False

https://fictional-indexing.fandom.c...rce,_in_a_Blog#Marvel_Comics_Cosmology_Debunk
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
I was thinking that we could here simply consider all of his arguments for Marvel and DC specifically, as they seem logical, rather than his arguments for our tiering system as a whole, which I have asked some of our most knowledgeable staff members about in private instead. 🙏
Click to expand...
To be frank, the arguing style reminded me of Thropples, I believe the guy name was on Spacebattles. Which I used to frequent a few years ago for sci-fi recommendations on games and books. And another guy named MutantHeroic that I've heard of. Basically, you guys were always wasting your time. People like this only want to argue under a specific framework that they dictate while disregarding everything else. Hence, the allergic reaction to making CRTs. His arguments would undermine just about all of your standards because he inherently disagreed with how this site operates and powerscaling in general.

It's pretty pointless for them to have came to this site in the first place, if I'm being honest. Not trying to be mean or anything, but it's the truth. Everyone on this site must follow the standards and rules. If Marvel or DC sufficiently qualifies for 1-A, High 1-A or even 0. Then it does not matter what your personal belief is or how much "proof" you throw around in some google doc that says otherwise. Make a CRT and downgrade it or just concede that you're not willing to debate the supporters under the proper standards. It's genuinely that simple.

So in my own opinion, I don't think we should take anything they said into consideration. If they're not willing to conform to standards that are set on this site and argue within it, then this site shouldn't accommodate their beliefs.
 
Frankky123 said:
i think we should also give it to Thought Robot, because of separated profile.
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Also about this

DC Comics Rules
Please refrain from creating revisions or making assumptions regarding Mandrakk's Plot Manipulation abilities based on vague references or lack of evidence. There is no indication in the comics that Mandrakk can alter the details of an existing narrative, change the past, or make decisions for characters in the story. All references to the story are metaphorical and made by beings who are trying to destroy the multiverse, and should be considered within their context. The Gentry/Empty Hand do not see the multiverse as fictional or have the ability to edit the story like an author. Therefore, any discussion about Mandrakk's plot manipulation abilities should be based on evidence from the comics and should avoid assumptions or unsupported claims.


We have thing accepted that should include both Mandrakk and Thought Robot. Although you can argue with discussion rule being outdated via debunking claims here. So make sure if you try you address this
 
Hecky2222 said:
Also about this

DC Comics Rules
Please refrain from creating revisions or making assumptions regarding Mandrakk's Plot Manipulation abilities based on vague references or lack of evidence. There is no indication in the comics that Mandrakk can alter the details of an existing narrative, change the past, or make decisions for characters in the story. All references to the story are metaphorical and made by beings who are trying to destroy the multiverse, and should be considered within their context. The Gentry/Empty Hand do not see the multiverse as fictional or have the ability to edit the story like an author. Therefore, any discussion about Mandrakk's plot manipulation abilities should be based on evidence from the comics and should avoid assumptions or unsupported claims.


We have thing accepted that should include both Mandrakk and Thought Robot. Although you can argue with discussion rule being outdated via debunking claims here. So make sure if you try you address this
Click to expand...
Although some characters like Mandrakk or Superboy-Prime cannot directly manipulate the narrative like The Writer does, they can still significantly influence it through specific abilities. For example, Mandrakk can consume Bleed, which, according to Grant Morrison, is the very substance that gives meaning and life to stories. Thus, when he consumes Bleed, he gradually drains the Multiverse of all story and meaning. Empty Hand and the Gentry use infected comic books of Earth-33 to invade realities. Some cosmic forces, such as Anti-Crisis Energy, connect life through memory and history, forming one generational epic story and giving reckoning to every story and event throughout history, while Crisis Energy aims to change the past to serve only the present and nothing more. Superman's energy allows life to flourish and develop, and it is essential to the Metaverse (Earth-0), whose changes ripple outwards to the rest of the Multiverse, primarily through the evolution of Superman's story, while Darkseid's Omega energy represents tumultuous and disruptive forces that restrains life. Superboy-Prime's famous retcon punch can rewrite or "retcon" history itself by causing ripples of energy that literally re-shape space and time. I have plenty of other examples, but this would suffice. Limited Plot Manipulation, as it was agreed, is fine.
 
Elizio33 said:
Although some characters like Mandrakk or Superboy-Prime cannot directly manipulate the narrative like The Writer does, they can still significantly influence it through specific abilities. For example, Mandrakk can consume Bleed, which, according to Grant Morrison, is the very substance that gives meaning and life to stories. Thus, when he consumes Bleed, he gradually drains the Multiverse of all story and meaning. Empty Hand and the Gentry use infected comic books of Earth-33 to invade realities. Some cosmic forces, such as Anti-Crisis Energy, connect life through memory and history, forming one generational epic story and giving reckoning to every story and event throughout history, while Crisis Energy aims to change the past to serve only the present and nothing more. Superman's energy allows life to flourish and develop, and it is essential to the Metaverse (Earth-0), whose changes ripple outwards to the rest of the Multiverse, primarily through the evolution of Superman's story, while Darkseid's Omega energy represents tumultuous and disruptive forces that restrains life. Superboy-Prime's famous retcon punch can rewrite or "retcon" history itself by causing ripples of energy that literally re-shape space and time. I have plenty of other examples, but this would suffice. Limited Plot Manipulation, as it was agreed, is fine.
Click to expand...
How should we revise the wording for Superman plot manipulation
 
Not necessarily a plot manipulation related power, but I guess along the lines of Superman having a higher force connected to him is how the Supermen of the local 52 literally become empowered by Hope itself after having all of their energy drained by Prophecy. So they go from weak powerless beings forced to dig their own grave to empowered and able to take on Prophecy through the power of their Hope - Superman Vol4 #16.
 
Hello, it's your boy bimgus

So I'm asking about this



Time is infinite, there's infinite possibilities/ futures at every point in time

shouldnt this qualifiy as uncountable sets of infinities and be low 1C?
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
Not necessarily a plot manipulation related power, but I guess along the lines of Superman having a higher force connected to him is how the Supermen of the local 52 literally become empowered by Hope itself after having all of their energy drained by Prophecy. So they go from weak powerless beings forced to dig their own grave to empowered and able to take on Prophecy through the power of their Hope - Superman Vol4 #16.
Click to expand...
I think this is caused by the idea that superheroes must survive so they are able to oppose threat, similar to Grant Morrison's and Paul Dini's idea that superheroes must survive/saves the day, which allows them to accomplish impossible things. As shown in this scan and here. Paul Dini proposed a story where Batman had a near-death experience. Because Paul Dini views superheroes as figures who always survive, Batman would have been able to do something impossible, cheating Death of the Endless once again, as he had done several times before. In the end, the proposal was not accepted because it was considered too supranatural for the story they were actually planning, and because Neil Gaiman is the only writer who is allowed to write morpheus.

However, the underlying idea that superheroes must survive was not rejected. Grant Morrison used a similar concept in Final Crisis : Superman Beyond, where superman performed the impossible by rewriting the narrative within the Book of Infinite Pages. Even though evil was supposed to triumph, Superman ultimately prevailed because of the fundamental idea that Superman saves the day, a good moral man cant be beat, heart of dc multiverse, where all derrived from. This creates a story created to be indestructible, a story of a child rocketed to earth from a doomed planet. This influence on 4th wall level because prime saying superman always comes back.

this can be an example of batman doing impossible thing. yea he's known for plot armor walking.

cmiiw
 
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