Deltarune: Removing Magic Scaling

[Jepilstiltskin]

Oh, yeah, that's because Ralsei altered some details about the prophecy to make it sound more epic and its not present in the original prophecy whatsoever.

Ralsei altered the prophecy (more likely a summarized version lol, rather than actually altering it, he said it himself), sure, but it is never specified which part was altered. Nothing indicates that the cosmological aspect of it was changed. In fact, you yourself argued earlier in the thread that Ralsei “doesn't need to lie about this”, so now you're just contradicting your own position. And even if the prophecy was altered in some way, why would Toby Fox still continue using that same prophecy all the way from the intro up through Chapter 4 if it were supposedly unreliable on a fundamental level?

Not to mention, the “real prophecy” you linked actually supports my argument more than yours. It explicitly shows that Darkness possesses real properties and substance in relation to Light, which directly reinforces Ralsei's point about balance between the two worlds. And both worlds are stated to be at stake BECAUSE of the Dark. That alone already disproves the idea that the Dark World is somehow completely fake or ontologically irrelevant.

"there needs to be a balance between reality and imagination, because if too much imagination is present, it will overtake reality and overcome the truth",

oh wow, so insane

Oh wow, your interpretation. I need evidence though.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ralsei altered the prophecy

Find me the text about balance in the original prophecy or concede to the argument. Stop wasting the thread's time.

Ralsei “doesn't need to lie about this”, so now you're just contradicting your own position

Ralsei who knew the prophecy perfectly, took liberty to make it sound le epic, that means he is no longer reliable despite it being built-in to his entire phisiology.

Oh wait, no, that doesn't make any sense.

Oh wow, your interpretation. I need evidence though

Read the original post about dark and light being analogies to fantasy and reality.

I will not reply to you if you don't bring up an actual point, I'm sleepy and I need to keep this under 5 pages for potential actual opposition to the thread.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Find me the text about balance in the original prophecy

It takes basic media literacy and narrative comprehension to understand what the prophecy is actually implying here. If anything, the “real prophecy” is simply a more epic or dramatic version of Ralsei's retelling.

Yes, the prophecy doesn't explicity state about balance, but what it is actually conveying is that beneath the reality of Light exists a counterpart of Dark, and because of the recent events, both of them are now at stake within the singular world they technically coexist in (not just the Light World or the Dark World separately, but BOTH together).

So their ontological position is clearly treated as real and that they exist in some sort of balance within the narrative. I understand the thematic argument that the Dark World is “not real”, but that is ultimately a matter of perspective (one that Ralsei is surprisingly unreliable at the moment simply because he is very obviously going through some sort of existential crisis, as shown later in chapter 4). The prophecy itself clearly does not treat the Dark World as ontologically meaningless or nonexistent. So… what exactly is your point supposed to be?

concede to the argument. Stop wasting the thread's time.

Nice way to shut an opposition.

Ralsei who knew the prophecy perfectly, took liberty to make it sound le epic, that means he is no longer reliable despite it being built-in to his entire phisiology.

Oh wait, no, that doesn't make any sense.

Nowhere stated in the game, all he said was that his retelling is a “summary” of the original prophecy (basically saying “what I said is more or less like that”). There's no actual coherent evidence that he lied about the cosmological point, even you said this in the OP. Am I getting punked?

Read the original post about dark and light being analogies to fantasy and reality.

I'm not opposing that, I'm opposing the idea that you're trying to argue the Dark World IS completely “not real” and that it doesn't have real ontological position.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes, the prophecy doesn't explicity state about balance, but what it is actually conveying is that beneath the reality of Light exists a counterpart of Dark, and because of the recent events, both of them are now at stake within the singular world they technically coexist in (not just the Light World or the Dark World separately, but BOTH together).

That's the roaring, which unites them into fantasy.

Also, it never states they were in balance, just that if the fountains were FREED, the roaring would occur.

Inferring that the prophecy implies balance is an interpretive leap.

"They both exist, and now they both are in danger. Therefore, balance."

That's ten pounds of Non-Sequitur in a five pound bag.

The distinction matters because the entire argument being contested rests on what the text actually establishes versus what a reader projects onto it.

But here you decide to invoke "narrative comprehension" as justification for adding content the text doesn't contain, you've already conceded that the text doesn't contain it. Therefore Ralsei altered it.

Yes, the whole "he embellished the story" was more of a joke. I don't know why he did it, and I don't need to know, I'm not the writer.

That concession is the whole point. The balance framing was challenged precisely because it was being treated as established canon rather than as an inference layered on top of the source material, and responding with "well it's implied" doesn't rescue it. Implication requires a chain of reasoning, and "both worlds are at stake therefore they exist in balance" is not that chain. Both worlds being threatened simultaneously is a plot structure, not a cosmological statement about their ontological equivalence. They're even threatened by the same event.

Roaring makes the dark world wild enough to eliminate the light world.

And you wanna know why it's not a balance? An excess of light doesn't do shit to neither world. An excess of darkness destroys both.

The claim is that Ralsei is unreliable in Chapter 4 because he's going through an existential crisis. But notice what that argument requires you to accept: that Ralsei's reliability is contingent on his psychological state, meaning that when he is stable and functioning in his established role as the party's lore keeper and prophetic authority across Chapters 1, 2, and 3, his statements about the mechanics of the Dark World carry weight. The existential crisis argument, if taken seriously, selectively undermines Chapter 4 Ralsei while leaving Chapters 1 through 3 Ralsei, the one who delivers the cosmological explanations the CRT is built on, fully intact.

"Oh wow, Ralsei is having a mental breakdown in Chapter 4. He's unreliable."

You're relying on him describing his alterations as "summaries" when we know he is lying as to why they're different, because of the ending of the prophecy. Check the scan in OP about Ralsei talking about the ending of it.

So their ontological position is clearly treated as real and that they exist in some sort of balance within the narrative

No. The dark world is described several times as being an illusion and nothing more than an alternative view of reality. That view has the risk of taking over if the darkness, which is fantasy, runs wild.

Nobody in the CRT argued the Dark World has no ontological position.

The argument is that its ontological position is as a fantasy construct, an experiential phenomenon generated by willpower and darkness, rather than as an independent physical reality with objectively measurable properties. Those are not the same claim, and the prophecy treating both worlds as narratively significant doesn't resolve which one is correct.

A story can treat a dream as narratively significant without that dream having physically real energy attacks you can scale. The Roaring being a genuine threat, both worlds being at stake, the Light and Dark existing in some form of tension, all of that is coherent with the CRT's framework because the threat the Roaring poses is ontological rather than energetic. Darkness consuming reality is dangerous because it imposes the fantasy framework over what is real, not because it delivers physically measurable force.

Genuinely, what part of, "all of reality needs to be reduced to imagination for imagination to be a dominant force" do you not understand?

Nice way to shut an opposition

What are you opposing?

No one is saying DWs are 11-C.

Nowhere stated in the game, all he said was that his retelling is a “summary” of the original prophecy (basically saying “what I said is more or less like that”)

The amount of time not implied in the original, the way he said it, Susie doesn't say it's a summary, she outright says it's different. Ralsei says Light and Dark has been balanced for millennia. That's clearly not been the case. He embellishes the story.

Dark World IS completely “not real” and that it doesn't have real ontological position.

So you're debating nothing. I might admit I used the term "ontology" in an erroneous manner, but you do see me concede on the effects on Light World.

You miss the sections where I clearly say "Light World and Dark World have a fake R>F relationship, where the DW is perceived as fiction via an in-universe logic, and all effects and magic reflects the willpower of the creator."




But let's pretend I did say that, and that I conceded now. Does that change my arguments against 7-B and FTL in any way? Does that make the Dark World any less fantasy like, and reliant on personal willpower? Which is the point of the "less real" argument.

No, so you've been actively arguing against a big ol nothing. With all due respect.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

That's the roaring, which unites them into fantasy.

Also, it never states they were in balance, just that if the fountains were FREED, the roaring would occur.

Inferring that the prophecy implies balance is an interpretive leap.

You're referring to the previous prophecy, whereas what I linked is literally the one that comes right after it. That prophecy directly suggests that both worlds coexist within the same overarching reality, and combined with Ralsei’s retelling, it is pretty clear that narratively Toby is trying to portray them as existing in some form of balance. What's interesting is that you call this a “leap”, when your own argument is entirely falling under interpretation in a way to go against it (even though the narrative clearly trying to portray them actually being the case, most of us here gets that, but you somehow didn't).

"They both exist, and now they both are in danger. Therefore, balance."

That's ten pounds of Non-Sequitur in a five pound bag.

That's not even the claim I made, what? The actual claim is that both worlds coexist under the same overarching reality. The destruction of one world directly affecting the other already implies that, in some way or form, they are interconnected through a kind of balance. And this is practically self-evident when you look at how Ralsei himself interprets and retells the prophecy. That is exactly what I meant earlier by basic media literacy and narrative comprehension.

That concession is the whole point. The balance framing was challenged precisely because it was being treated as established canon rather than as an inference layered on top of the source material, and responding with "well it's implied" doesn't rescue it. Implication requires a chain of reasoning, and "both worlds are at stake therefore they exist in balance" is not that chain. Both worlds being threatened simultaneously is a plot structure, not a cosmological statement about their ontological equivalence. They're even threatened by the same event.

A bunch of nothing being said. I love how you just misinterpret what I said and made an entirely new argument from it.

Yes, the whole "he embellished the story" was more of a joke. I don't know why he did it, and I don't need to know, I'm not the writer.

Yes, you're not. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the same approach as Toby, who keeps placing Ralsei's retelling of the prophecy in the intro of every chapter. Oh wait, I guess they are important and relevant after all!

The claim is that Ralsei is unreliable in Chapter 4 because he's going through an existential crisis. But notice what that argument requires you to accept: that Ralsei's reliability is contingent on his psychological state, meaning that when he is stable and functioning in his established role as the party's lore keeper and prophetic authority across Chapters 1, 2, and 3, his statements about the mechanics of the Dark World carry weight. The existential crisis argument, if taken seriously, selectively undermines Chapter 4 Ralsei while leaving Chapters 1 through 3 Ralsei, the one who delivers the cosmological explanations the CRT is built on, fully intact.

"Oh wow, Ralsei is having a mental breakdown in Chapter 4. He's unreliable."

You're relying on him describing his alterations as "summaries" when we know he is lying as to why they're different, because of the ending of the prophecy. Check the scan in OP about Ralsei talking about the ending of it.

I'm not saying that every statement Ralsei makes from Chapter 3 onward is automatically unreliable simply because of his psychological state. Obviously, people going through emotional or mental struggles can still say truthful things. That is why context, situation, and the specific circumstances behind the statement matter. But there is a clear difference between someone speaking during an emotionally unstable or gloomy state versus speaking in a neutral or stable one.

The reason why Ralsei's statements can be considered unreliable in that particular context is because the situation itself is extremely emotional and gloomy. He has friends, sure, but they fundamentally do not belong to the same world as him. In that moment, Ralsei is viewing existence from the perspective of the LIGHTNERS rather than from his own position or from what the narrative objectively presents (such as the prophecy, which clearly treats the Dark World as cosmologically significant to destiny itself). So naturally, Ralsei ends up viewing his own existence as insignificant, because he is comparing himself against LIGHTNERS and their reality.

On the other hand, Ralsei's retelling of the prophecy and answering a simple question does not happen under those same emotional conditions. That scene is not gloomy nor is it emotionally unstable, it is a relatively neutral situation where he is able to do those things without any emotional consequences or anything.

Nobody in the CRT argued the Dark World has no ontological position.

You weirdly did. Otherwise I wouldn't have an issue with this thread.

A story can treat a dream as narratively significant without that dream having physically real energy attacks you can scale. The Roaring being a genuine threat, both worlds being at stake, the Light and Dark existing in some form of tension, all of that is coherent with the CRT's framework because the threat the Roaring poses is ontological rather than energetic. Darkness consuming reality is dangerous because it imposes the fantasy framework over what is real, not because it delivers physically measurable force.

The thing is, the dream in this context does not merely being treated as narratively significant to the real, but also frames them as fundamentally equal in standing. In this case both Light and Dark are implied to coexist under the same overarching reality, with Darkness manifesting in the absence of Light, and vice versa. These are abstract, not something you can simply reduce to “they are not real because they do not physically exist” (like, duh, the same way goes to the Lightners who hasn't stepped into the Dark World).

Literally nobody in the story (not even the prophecy itself) treats the Dark World that way, with the sole exception of Ralsei during a moment where he is very obviously going through an existential crisis.

If he were in King's position, he probably would not view himself as something fake or “not real”, because there was a point in time where LIGHTNERS and DARKNERS did coexist together before the LIGHTNERS abandoned them entirely. The question becomes philosophical really, “If people had known magic, would the term be still not real or just the truth?” So ultimately, this really just comes down to perspective. If LIGHTNERS were to live alongside DARKNERS again, would DARKNERS suddenly stop being “fake”? Or would people finally acknowledge them as real?

The amount of time not implied in the original, the way he said it, Susie doesn't say it's a summary, she outright says it's different. Ralsei says Light and Dark has been balanced for millennia. That's clearly not been the case. He embellishes the story.

She said “kinda”, and of course it's going to be different, it's a summary for God's sake. It's not going to be a literal 1:1 repetition. Why are you nitpicking this WTF.

You miss the sections where I clearly say "Light World and Dark World have a fake R>F relationship, where the DW is perceived as fiction via an in-universe logic, and all effects and magic reflects the willpower of the creator."

Via Ralsei who is going on through some existential crisis, you mean.

So you're debating nothing.

No, so you've been actively arguing against a big ol nothing. With all due respect.

This is bold given I just argued that the Dark World IS equally real to the Light World.

 

[Qurbonboev]

How it's already 3 pages?
I geniunely don't want to do this on weekends, but there is nothing that could be done.
(You could have at least not put everything in one thing)

Let's start

DISCLAIMERS: Any attempt to use whataboutism from other verses on the wiki is being met with an immediate WARNING for derailment, no exceptions. You will not use the "but they approved it HERE" argumentation in this thread, it will not be tolerated. If you wish, search through the verses that have similar situations, and quote their argumetnation, not just the fact it was approved,

Some context for whataboutism itself.
Whataboutism is informal logical fallacy. Whether it's actually fallacious or not in specifc situation depends on CONTEXT of logical argument itself and place where it being brought up.
Objecting against government crackdown of some group of radicals on basic of assumption that government would crack down on more moderate people later on is using slippery slope argument, but it's not fallacious.
Using "OP breaks the law" is textbook evoking ad hominem. But if someone here tried to use it here, it wouldn't be considered fallacious. Instead OP would be banned.

If same type of reasoning was approved for Verse X, but not Y, it's fair for sups of Y to claim double standards and such.

Now, for arguments themselves:

"Needless to say: Ralsei's information is as reliable as a narrator in the story, as that's one of his roles."

Ralsei doesn't know everything(he didn't know that Titans work like Fountains, he only intuited it), and he regularly lies(by omission). Even disregarding all instances of him hiding prophecy from us and Gang, there is numerous moments when he says to Kris: "Let's think about X", our (Player) attention comes to X, and when we come back he is talking about something suspicious with Kris before abruptly cutting off. And when we try to deny this request, he visibly panics. Needless to say it's obvious that he is hiding something from us, and have some conspiracy going on with Kris against us. (Your average royal palace has less conspiracies and complicated romantic situationships and than Fan Gang fr).
Any words he says should be under heavy scrutiny for reasons above. And if you choose to interpret his words as "Dark Words are just illusion of our minds" they do not survive it at all.
First of all, we should categorise exact mechanics of darkness workings.
Imagine scenario. You are chilling in your home, but suddenly gas leaks into into room. You room is now as big as city, you start seeing some weird shit happening everywhere, etc..
So, what is happening? You have two hypothesises:
1. Gas has perception manipulation, aka it messes with yours senses and brains.
2. Gas has reality warping ability, it messes with reality.
Now, you phone your close friend, and ask to check what is happening. He comes close to the room, but doesn't enter it.
If gas only messes with your perception Close friend would see nothing unusual from outside, since he isn't under its effect. But if he sees Weird shit happening inside house, while not being under effect of Gas, it should be obvious that Gas has reality warping property.
We (Player) are this close friend. We aren't bound by senses of Kris or anyone else(remember "let's talk about X" moments), we reside outside cosmology of Deltarune. Unless darkness has immeasurable speed and 5D range(and somehow can selectively affect us, but not everyone else in Hometown), it shouldn't be possible for it to affect our perception. Yet, we clearly see Dark Word same way as Lightners inside it do. It's pretty safe to say that Darkness doesn't just messes perception of Lightners, it warps reality itself.
If Ralsei words contradicts our interpretation(that is based on our perception), worse for him. He already lied several time to us.
And if you still think we should interpret his words this way, you are in weird situations where you declare everything as illusion based on words of someone(Ralsei) you claim to be just an illusion, which is frankly incoherent.
Obviously it undercuts any arguments that hinges on DW being just illusion. Sound waves aren't just illusion, we can clearly see them, yet we couldn't possibly be under illusion effect of DW, etc...
Arguing about how DW violate conservation of energy is ridiculous. By default we assume that reality warping/magic violates it, otherwise any verse where someone can cast apple from nothingness, would be mountain level.

Bullets would still need to satisfy some requirements to be considered real sound/electricity/light. Same way as any phenomena that is created through magic/reality warping does.
Now, what arguments does OP have against them that does not rely on illusion argument.

Tasque sound waves becoming thicker as they move isn't argument against them having same speed as irl sound.
Tasque can telepathically manipulate their furballs. They launch them towards us through TP in the first place.
Tasque sound waves moving in tandem with "electricity" isn't antifeat at all. I geniunely struggle to see your reasoning here.

No Soul did claim that musical notes ingame move with same speed as actual sound. When I tried to do so, @StrymULTRA, said it's too goofy and doesn't meet our standards. Using them as antifeats, when nobody claims that they move at the speed of sound is ridiculous.

Zapper's alleged speed-of-light laser can have its size increased by Sound Manipulation. Also the "lasers" have a tail

?!?!?
What sound manipulation you are talking about. Gang (most likely) just presses some button on Zapper, which results in thicker laser.
Laser having tail isn't antifeat. If he have some source of laser, and if central parts of laser source stop producing laser later than different parts of it, resulting beam would have tail.

Each one of Wicabel's "shockwaves" move at different speeds despite travelling through the same medium.

Ok? They are shockwaves. They can vary in speed, only thing they have in common speedwise, is that they are faster than speed of sound in medium. Not an antifeat.

The fact sizes are not proportional to the amount of darkness already refutes the certainty that the darkness the Titan has is 7-B in size.

I asked some clarifications from @StrymULTRA before and he said that we technically scale Titan to reality warping of fountain, not size, not amount of darkness. If Fountain can reality warp 7-B place into existence, it doesn't matter if in another situation it produces vastly smaller place. We would still rate it to maximum extent of its reality warping ability. Amount of darkness is irrelevant. Quite small amount of Darkness created by Susie was already enough to recreate Sanctuary.

Needless to say, that's not how light works. If a source of light is already omnidirectional, light will not shoot beams around like that, it's magic.

Also, the speed varies, and that cannot happen. Lightspeed cannot vary. In the same fight, the light source takes:

Imagine light source that has many small source of light on its surface. From outside it would appear as normal omnidirectional source of light. But sometimes some of light sources suddenly gain in power, and became brighter. From outside it would have appeared as if source just shout some laser beams on top of constant light output(similar to our case)
Varying speed of light is just cinematic timing. Cases you provide as proofs happens happens in different scenes.

The Jackenstein fight in itself is nothing but a big shitpost

Dogshit argument. This fight introduces us to darkness mechanic, light acts. And after fight we heal Jackenstein through targeting his insides, instead of unsuccessfully trying to target his head. Sounds familiar?

Light is just an analogy for reality

Good literally analysis. Sadly there are too many instances of fiction, where light is analogy for different thing(usually "good" in antithesis to evil) while still being actual light.
It's not situation like Hazbin, where angels are said to be composed of "light". Fountains works through introducing negative photons, SOUL seals it through light(which should introduce normal photons). And Soul has light in LW too.

TOBY FOX MADE IT CLEAR THAT, IN SERIOUS SITUATIONS, THE CHARACTERS ARE SOUND-TIMERS

SOJ doesn't cap the verse. Everything in this fight happens under heavy darkness. You know, thing that heavily obstructs vision. And in the limit, if there is literally no sources of light, MFTL with no bight vision char would get hit by average human speed char that has it

This CRT also does not aim to remove calculations that use mass from actual objects created from magic, namely feats like Noelle's Snowgrave, and GIGA Queen's gigantic tennis ball are exempt from the thread. Others like speed feats derived from assumed realistic propagation are more likely to be removed altogether.

Geniunely strange reasoning(I am holding my words). If sound waves don't move at speed of sound cus they are illusion and thus fake, why is mass of object is real now.
On this topic, if DW are lesser reality, why aren't you downgrading them to 10-C(or are you planning to give Lightners 2-C, not full R>F is still +1D).

7-B characters will scale to 8-A+ via the Titan's PE, High Hypersonic via upscaling off Sounds of Justice

Supporters already brought this up. There is better (evaled) calc that doesn't assume that Titan is giant noodle.


If I didn't respond to some part of CRTs, it's not indication of me agreeing to them. It's either me a) deciding to check them later, or b) waiting for other sups


Also

They're also inconsistent, while the Lightners dodge an alleged SoL magic bullet in a chapter, and in the next chapter, despite being stronger, they are tagged by sound again

1. It's Bell that tagged SOUL, not shickwave.
2. Player specifically doesn't get out of the way of Wicabel clapper. Obviously they would get tagged by it. If MFTL char doesn't get out of way of transonic char, Transonic char wouldn't magically teleport through MFTL char. She would hit him.

Both SOUL and clapper move around x10 faster than shockwaves, so it's hardly antifeat for both of them.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Forgot to add.
Titan(which you would claim as illusion alongside any other DW creatures)*, left quite a mess in Church.

* Hold on, according to your interpretation, it would have been even less real than baseline DW, lmao

 

[Axorandom0]

Oh, yeah, that's because Ralsei altered some details about the prophecy to make it sound more epic and its not present in the original prophecy whatsoever.

Hope that helps.

Also,

"there needs to be a balance between reality and imagination, because if too much imagination is present, it will overtake reality and overcome the truth",

oh wow, so insane

Didn’t you dedicate several paragraphs to explaining how Ralsei is a reliable narrator? We should only accept that to be a lie if it’s proven false/proven Ralsei was lying about it elsewhere. A lack of it being in the prophecy we see is not proof that it isn’t in it completely.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That prophecy directly suggests that both worlds coexist within the same overarching reality

It doesn't.

"A world basked in purest light, beneath it grew eternal night"

Cut to my overwhelming evidence that light is reality, and darkness, or in this context, eternal night, is fantasy.

"A world that was real, had fantasy beneath it" does not imply balance. It just implied they existed.

Via Ralsei

We're not intertaining Ralsei not being a reliable source on the thing he's supposed to be a reliable source in. I've proved him right in the OP, argue with a wall.

You weirdly did. Otherwise I wouldn't have an issue with this thread.

That's because you misinterpreted it.

The reason why Ralsei's statements can be considered unreliable in that particular context is because the situation itself is extremely emotional and gloomy.

The argument is:

"emotional scene is where Ralsei is the most unreliable and insincere"

Prove he lied about anything in this instance or stand down. Emotions and sadness is when people are their sincerests.

with the sole exception of Ralsei during a moment where he is very obviously going through an existential crisis

Verifiably false, he says that shit in Chapter 3 and Tenna doesn't correct him when he says he isn't real.

"No one but Ralsei"

So, no one but the character whose phisiology is "knowing the mechanics of the world"

I wonder why.

She said “kinda”

We have eyes and we can read, it's different.

Cite where Ralsei took the "millenia" part from the original prophecy.

I just argued that the Dark World IS equally real to the Light World.

That's bold considering that's verifiably false and contradicts the entire narrative, and that's concluded on a false evidence.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

It doesn't.

"A world basked in purest light, beneath it grew eternal night"

Cut to my overwhelming evidence that light is reality, and darkness, or in this context, eternal night, is fantasy.

"A world that was real, had fantasy beneath it" does not imply balance. It just implied they existed.

I could unaronically argue it both since how you going explain Fire monsters are more real them water darkners ? What make a darkner soo different from a monster if both have magic ?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ralsei doesn't know everything(he didn't know that Titans work like Fountains, he only intuited it), and he regularly lies(by omission).

Ralsei is the most knowledgeable character in the entire series about the mechanics of the verse, and you're refuting the reliability with,

"Well, he isn't omniscient, so we shouldn't trust him", or "sometimes he omits information that would be hurtful"

If he omits shit, that doesn't mean he lies about what he actually claims.

Needless to say it's obvious that he is hiding something from us

I don't really care about theory crafting here, Qur. Ralsei is reliable, and suspicion on his morals is irrelevant to the evidence I've built.

it shouldn't be possible for it to affect our perception. Yet, we clearly see Dark Word same way as Lightners inside it do. It's pretty safe to say that Darkness doesn't just messes perception of Lightners, it warps reality itself.

What in the false conclusion.

It's fiction, anything can alter perception of characters. In fact, you just brushed aside overwhelming evidence that it does.

"It's safe to say it doesn't mess with our perception because of powerscaling logic that Toby Fox doesn't know about" is not a counter.

This analogy is actually such a red herring fallacy. whyyyyyy....

The "close friend" standing outside the room and observing weird phenomena through the window would be evidence of reality warping, yes. But the player of a video game is not analogous to that close friend.

That's it, you made a false analogy. IT doesn't describe the situation, you pretended it did, then you made a false conclusion on it that doesn't apply here.

The player sees the Dark World because the game is a visual medium that needs to represent its events to the person holding the controller.

The visual representation of the Dark World on screen is not in-universe testimony about its physical nature.

It's LITERALLY a storytelling apparatus functioning.

You're confusing the medium with the fiction, the literal category error that would, if applied consistently, force you to conclude that every visual element of every video game is physically real within that game's fiction, which produces immediate absurdities. That's not how shit works at all.

When Undertale shows a battle box floating in white space, the white space is not physically real within Undertale's fiction. The player seeing the Dark World proves the game is showing the player the Dark World. It proves nothing about the ontological or physical status of what's being shown. We're seeing the game from outside the characters entire perspectives.

The false dichotomy embedded in the analogy is also just making me write a bit more on this...

Perception manipulation versus reality warping are not the only two options available. The CRT's position is neither of these. That third option is precisely what Ralsei describes, and it's what the game's mechanical evidence supports. The gas analogy was built to exclude it, but excluding an option from your analogy doesn't make that option unavailable in the actual argument.

The CRT does not argue Darkners are illusions in the sense of not existing or having no causal efficacy. It argues the Dark World's physics are fantasy-based rather than physically realistic.

And if you still think we should interpret his words this way, you are in weird situations where you declare everything as illusion based on words of someone(Ralsei) you claim to be just an illusion, which is frankly incoherent.

"Dark Worlds aren't illusions because Ralsei, who is an illusion, says so"

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

A property that has consciousness can inform about its own property, that's not a defeater.

Arguing about how DW violate conservation of energy is ridiculous. By default we assume that reality warping/magic violates it, otherwise any verse where someone can cast apple from nothingness, would be mountain level.

The argument is that darkness is non-euclidean and relies on a immeasurable concept that doesn't rely on energy in the first place. It's definition of hax and non-UES.

Tasque sound waves becoming thicker as they move isn't argument against them having same speed as irl sound.
Tasque can telepathically manipulate their furballs. They launch them towards us through TP in the first place.
Tasque sound waves moving in tandem with "electricity" isn't antifeat at all. I geniunely struggle to see your reasoning here.

No Soul did claim that musical notes ingame move with same speed as actual sound. When I tried to do so, @StrymULTRA, said it's too goofy and doesn't meet our standards. Using them as antifeats, when nobody claims that they move at the speed of sound is ridiculous.
?!?!?
What sound manipulation you are talking about. Gang (most likely) just presses some button on Zapper, which results in thicker laser.
Laser having tail isn't antifeat. If he hav

It might not have come to you now but THERE IS CURRENTLY NO ARGUMENT THAT FAVORS IRL SPEEDS

You're repeating the same mistake of the UT thread of pretending your position is reality already, it isn't. The tasque sound waves are not canonically sound speed, that's the assumption that's being challenged.

This is what I said about cherry picking. If computerized, thematic sound waves are sound speed, why wouldn't music notes made out of actual music not be?

"That's because it doesn't meet our standa-", it's the same darkner magic from the same source (fountains). You don't get to pick which magic you think is realistic, and brush aside all the contradictions. Tasque throws the ball at an angle and it falls naturally, btw.

It's sound manipulation, the "volume" of the game is increased, which increases the volume of the laser. It having a tail is an anti-feat. It shouldn't curve.

Ok? They are shockwaves. They can vary in speed

Is your entire response just incorrect affirmations. Shockwaves don't vary in speed if they come from the same source, at the same time, and are travelling through the same medium (air)

That IS an anti-feat. You literally just don't know basic physics.

not amount of darkness

Don't care. You can't claim a puddle of darkness has the same level of warping as an entire fountain of it. Also, darkness is not UES, you don't scale that shit regardless.

Imagine light source that has many small source of light on its surface. From outside it would appear as normal omnidirectional source of light. But sometimes some of light sources suddenly gain in power, and became brighter. From outside it would have appeared as if source just shout some laser beams on top of constant light output(similar to our case)

That would cause omnidirectional increase in brightness, not cannons of light that are just triangles moving through space in random directions.

Varying speed of light is just cinematic timing. Cases you provide as proofs happens happens in different scenes.

It's not cinematic, it's the same animation.

They are 5 seconds apart, why are you lying?

ALSO

QUR


IF THE LIGHT BEAM HAS CINEMATIC ANIMATION

WHY

ARE WE

SCALING

ANYTHING TO IT?

The FTL scaling has to go regardless of which approach we take.

Dogshit argument. This fight introduces us to darkness mechanic, light acts. And after fight we heal Jackenstein through targeting his insides, instead of unsuccessfully trying to target his head. Sounds familiar?

Watch the tone.

You're misinterpreting the argument, I said scaling shouldn't be used because the speed which Jack moves, and interactions with the pumpkin are literally a gag, I never said the haxes aren't valid.

Good literally analysis. Sadly there are too many instances of fiction, where light is analogy for different thing(usually "good" in antithesis to evil) while still being actual light.
It's not situation like Hazbin, where angels are said to be composed of "light". Fountains works through introducing negative photons, SOUL seals it through light(which should introduce normal photons). And Soul has light in LW too.

That's fine. It's still not valid, as I've shown you unrealistic behavior, or as you said, "cinematic timing", which is really just consistent contradictions you want us to ignore

SOJ doesn't cap the verse. Everything in this fight happens under heavy darkness. You know, thing that heavily obstructs vision. And in the limit, if there is literally no sources of light, MFTL with no bight vision char would get hit by average human speed char that has it

That last part is just false, oh my God. That's your entire response, just making absurd claims that are false. No, the character that seems me as being frozen in time is not getting hit by anything I do, no matter the circumstances.

Susie literally has the soundwaves to use as visual aid, and it's how she dodges it. SOJ is a threat to Susie, that alone proves she isn't that much faster than it, and literally needed Kris' help. It absolutely caps the verse, you're denying the cutscene was meant to make it look fast, and a sound timer. We see Susie dodging the swing in real time, she's literally relative to it.

Geniunely strange reasoning(I am holding my words). If sound waves don't move at speed of sound cus they are illusion and thus fake, why is mass of object is real now.
On this topic, if DW are lesser reality, why aren't you downgrading them to 10-C(or are you planning to give Lightners 2-C, not full R>F is still +1D).

"I am purposefully misunderstanding the "fake" claim, and this is my response"

Qur, I'm genuinely not entertaining this response. This has to be rage-bait. Sound waves don't move at the speed of sound because they are fantasy, they still travel and have energy, but they are not the literal property. Mass that literally affects things is not fantasy.

Supporters already brought this up. There is better (evaled) calc that doesn't assume that Titan is giant noodle.

Get it applied and substitute the current one, I'm not using it otherwise.

If I didn't respond to some part of CRTs, it's not indication of me agreeing to them. It's either me a) deciding to check them later, or b) waiting for

You didn't respond to any of it, tbh.

Also

1. It's Bell that tagged SOUL, not shickwave.
2. Player specifically doesn't get out of the way of Wicabel clapper. Obviously they would get tagged by it. If MFTL char doesn't get out of way of transonic char, Transonic char wouldn't magically teleport through MFTL char. She would hit him.

False affirmations again, we can move freely to dodge the shockwaves, and they still move relative to our speeds, which is literally the problem. Also, yes it's a shockwave, it's a bell hitting a surface and generating omni-directional energy.

Both SOUL and clapper move around x10 faster than shockwaves, so it's hardly antifeat for both of them.

MIND YOU, BOTH ARE RATED AS FTL HERE.


Your entire response is:

Most blatant anti-feat you've ever seen in your life

"Nuh uh. Not an anti-feat"

I'm so done with ts, man...

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

It doesn't.

"A world basked in purest light, beneath it grew eternal night"

Cut to my overwhelming evidence that light is reality, and darkness, or in this context, eternal night, is fantasy.

"A world that was real, had fantasy beneath it" does not imply balance. It just implied they existed.

OMG, did you genuinely pull that interpretation from planet Mars? It is not that hard to comprehend if you actually take the time to use basic narrative comprehension and linguistic analysis.

The text strongly implies a dualistic imagery. It describes two opposing states existing simultaneously within the same overarching reality. There is absolutely nothing in the wording that suggests “Light is reality while Dark is fantasy”, nor is there even a remote implication of that idea.

So wrong, yet so loud. The text instead hints at a structure where Light and Dark coexist vertically or hierarchically. The wording “grew eternal night” also makes Darkness feel active, expanding, or alive rather than something static or nonexistent. And the word “eternal” further implies permanence or a fundamental role within the world itself, meaning Darkness is not merely dependent on the other side in order to meaningfully exist or in your terms, it's not simply “fake” or “not real”. Bro stop.

We're not intertaining Ralsei not being a reliable source on the thing he's supposed to be a reliable source in. I've proved him right in the OP, argue with a wall.

So, you're taking every claim without considering context whatsoever...? NICE!

That's because you misinterpreted it.

Or because you worded it that way. Remember, you said it doesn't have real ontological position in the OP. Man, I am getting punked after all.

The argument is:

"emotional scene is where Ralsei is the most unreliable and insincere"

Prove he lied about anything in this instance or stand down. Emotions and sadness is when people are their sincerests.

This is genuinely not a counter-argument. I literally gave you my reasoning as to why it isn't applicable ( because it isn't!). You need to understand more psychological study bro, because what you said is just not true. Anyway, you haven't actually refute what I said, so I'm just gonna quote it for you, here:

He has friends, sure, but they fundamentally do not belong to the same world as him. In that moment, Ralsei is viewing existence from the perspective of the LIGHTNERS rather than from his own position or from what the narrative objectively presents (such as the prophecy, which clearly treats the Dark World as cosmologically significant to destiny itself). So naturally, Ralsei ends up viewing his own existence as insignificant, because he is comparing himself against LIGHTNERS and their reality.

If he were in King's position, he probably would not view himself as something fake or “not real”, because there was a point in time where LIGHTNERS and DARKNERS did coexist together before the LIGHTNERS abandoned them entirely. The question becomes philosophical really, “If people had known magic, would the term be still not real or just the truth?” So ultimately, this really just comes down to perspective. If LIGHTNERS were to live alongside DARKNERS again, would DARKNERS suddenly stop being “fake”? Or would people finally acknowledge them as real?

You basically ignored most of my arguments, but oh well.

Verifiably false, he says that shit in Chapter 3 and Tenna doesn't correct him when he says he isn't real.

Or... maybe... Tenna just doesn't care...? He's literally seeing that as a performance.

So, no one but the character whose phisiology is "knowing the mechanics of the world"

I wonder why.

That is genuinely not an argument. It can be very easily explained as the characters simply understanding the metaphysical truth behind their reality.

I mean, Sans in Deltarune can literally warp his grocery baskets like a Doraemon pouch despite the setting supposedly lacking magic. Does that suddenly mean he is literally the same Sans from Undertale? Of course not (yet).

We have eyes and we can read, it's different.

Cite where Ralsei took the "millenia" part from the original prophecy.

Basic narrative comprehension, man. Toby doesn't need to bombard the player with every single prophecy in existence. There could easily be other prophecies or pieces of lore that simply are not shown on-screen, in the same way we do not see certain prophecy unless we visit specific locations. That does not mean they suddenly do not exist.

And even then, Ralsei could have derived his understanding of “millenia” from the “eternal night” line in the very first prophecy, or maybe he took a history class from King, who literally lived alongside LIGHTNERS before they go poof searching for milk. Literally, why is this even a question. Toby does not need to spoon-feed every detail directly to the player, bro.

That's bold considering that's verifiably false and contradicts the entire narrative, and that's concluded on a false evidence.

Mirror mirror on the wall.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Like it become even more simple whem you remenber darkness is actually a photon in this universe and negative photons

Since photon are moving foward them negative photons are moving backwards thus explaining the determinetion time travel.

Because photon in this case is information while negative is the lack of information thus "never existed"

It is game world after all.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

“Light is reality while Dark is fantasy”

That's objectively true.

you're taking every claim without considering context

The context you provide for it being unreliable is you lacking the understanding of how psychology works.

This is genuinely not a counter-argument

That's because you didn't provide an argument. You said, "Ralsei is having a panic attack because of the conditions that he knows its true. That makes his claim about his conditions to be... unreliable".

Or... maybe... Tenna just doesn't care...?

You're genuinely trolling.

"Oh hey, here's evidence of other characters being aware they're not real"
"Don't care!"

That is genuinely not an argument. It can be very easily explained as the characters simply understanding the metaphysical truth behind their reality.

I mean, Sans in Deltarune can literally warp his grocery baskets like a Doraemon pouch despite the setting supposedly lacking magic. Does that suddenly mean he is literally the same Sans from Undertale? Of course not (yet).

"This can easily be explained with this headcanon I just made up."

The Sans point is not an argument. It actually doesn't relate to Ralsei's knowledge at all, what the **** are you even talking about here?

Ralsei could have

or maybe he took a history class

Meet "potential argument"

Ralsei "could've", "maybe took", but never "actually did".

The fact he took a liberty in the interpretation is literally my point.


These verse supporters making the thread 4x as long with these nothingburguer arguments, oh my God.

 

[Homie890]

These verse supporters making the thread 4x as long with these nothingburguer arguments, oh my God.

Popular Indie Stuff Syndrome, i suppose.
...
Also, can i agree with the 7-B and FTL stuff or i must agree with the whole thread?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

That's objectively true.

I dont think soo after all you still need explain why fire monsters can exist in the light world if Fire monsters beings arent really a reality

The context you provide for it being unreliable is you lacking the understanding of how psychology works.

Yet people forget soul is real bettewen chapters despite the fact can be affected by a darkner who is illusion also the knight is not comfirmed to be a lightner btw

That's because you didn't provide an argument. You said, "Ralsei is having a panic attack because of the conditions that he knows its true. That makes his claim about his conditions to be... unreliable".

Of course i will because i have catch a lier

You're genuinely trolling.

"Oh hey, here's evidence of other characters being aware they're not real"
"Don't care!"

Yet you didnt even wait ch 5

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

That's objectively true.

Not stated in the prophecy, so who's using headcanon here again?

The context you provide for it being unreliable is you lacking the understanding of how psychology works.

Not really, no. I mean, I would genuinely appreciate it if you educated me on the matter. Because as far as I am aware, bias toward another perspective usually tends to happen when someone feels insecure about themselves, something that Ralsei is, in all likelihood, currently experiencing (he sees the Light World as the “point of reference” rather than using an objective position by not actually picking reference at all). But I guess you just do not want to make an actual counter-argument.

That's because you didn't provide an argument. You said, "Ralsei is having a panic attack because of the conditions that he knows its true. That makes his claim about his conditions to be... unreliable".

I literally quoted my arguments to you, what? You're undermining every argument with this low-effort sarcastic bs, just drop it.

You're genuinely trolling.

"Oh hey, here's evidence of other characters being aware they're not real"
"Don't care!"

Aren't we literally talking about the same moment where Ralsei is clearly emotional and Tenna treats the whole thing like a performance? Or are you suddenly shifting this into some entirely different moment that I am not even aware of because you didn't say?

"This can easily be explained with this headcanon I just made up."

Literally you're the one giving an interpretation from planet Mars when the text is not even remotely close to suggesting that. This is exactly what you were doing like… one reply earlier.

The Sans point is not an argument. It actually doesn't relate to Ralsei's knowledge at all, what the **** are you even talking about here?

I specifically replying to the “so, no one but the character whose phisiology is "knowing the mechanics of the world"” argument, genuinely how are you misintepretating this by thinking I'm talking about Ralsei.

Meet "potential argument"

Ralsei "could've", "maybe took", but never "actually did".

The fact he took a liberty in the interpretation is literally my point.

That's obviously a joke lmao, how did you not get the “milk” part. That goes without saying, what I did is no difference from you. It's exactly how you put it, a “potential argument”.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Popular Indie Stuff Syndrome, i suppose.
...
Also, can i agree with the 7-B and FTL stuff or i must agree with the whole thread?

The objective is removing 7-B and FTL, so I used multiple angles, you can agree with whichever you prefer.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

In any case, the OP does not seem to have any substantial counter-argument at all (literally not even responding to most of the things that I said). And my interest is just going downhill at this point, especially when the response I am getting is mostly a low-effort sarcasm stunt (sorry, not sorry).

Just put me in disagreement.

 

[Homie890]

The objective is removing 7-B and FTL, so I used multiple angles, you can agree with whichever you prefer.

I agree with with the 7-B and FTL

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not stated in the prophecy, so who's using headcanon here again?

Read the OP.

Because as far as I am aware, bias toward--

Reaction to circumstances is not bias. The thing Ralsei has is a perception that, because he is not "real", he doesn't matter. The conclusion he has comes from his own morals, not from a lack of reliability on said circumstances.

I literally quoted my arguments to you, what? You're undermining every argument with this low-effort sarcastic bs, just drop it.

I explain why I don't think they're good ones or why they don't apply here. If you're making a false equivalence, what am I supposed to do, your argument is basically that we shouldn't trust Ralsei because he is very very sad about not being real, which is, of course, ridiculous.

I'm tired, boss. Just read the OP and the scan where Ralsei literally admits that he is forced by his own nature to know about the rules of the world, in the very scene you claim he is breaking down.

Aren't we literally talking about the same moment where Ralsei is clearly emotional and Tenna treats the whole thing like a performance? Or are you suddenly shifting this into some entirely different moment that I am not even aware of because you didn't say?

It's the moment where Susie says she will donate Tenna to another Lightner. Ralsei says that because they are not real, they shouldn't make lightners worry. Tenna never reacts to that information like it's some sort of revelation, he just understand Ralsei's point to an extent before Susie tells him that it doesn't matter to her. Like, you need to genuinely purposefully misunderstand the scene and my point if you think this is not valid evidence that Ralsei's conclusions about his lack of "realness" is not bias, but comes from genuine understanding of the world he's in, which, again, is built-in by nature.

You can claim his lack of self-preservation/self-worth is bias, but that's not what I use to argue.

Literally you're the one giving an interpretation from planet Mars when the text is not even remotely close to suggesting that. This is exactly what you were doing like… one reply earlier.

I specifically replying to the “so, no one but the character whose phisiology is "knowing the mechanics of the world"” argument, genuinely how are you misintepretating this by thinking I'm talking about Ralsei.

The Sans point is non-sense. Period. I'm refuting the claim that, "Ralsei is the only know who says they're not real, and he's biased". This fact is not cause by bias, it's caused because he's the only character who has to know the truth by nature.

Again, read the OP.

That's obviously a joke lmao, how did you not get the “milk” part. That goes without saying, what I did is no difference from you. It's exactly how you put it “potential argument”.

Read the OP, part 3. My argument is that Ralsei can add personal interpretation to information he knows. That doesn't mean he doesn't know said information. You conceded on that front by saying he "took his understanding of the prophecy".

Like, my entire point is that Dark Worlds are a fantasy land that don't respect reality, and not "real" in the context of the verse itself, not some "insignificant 11-C verse that doesn't exist". That willpower govern physics of DW, instead of real life. We're having a debate about something else entirely, which is why I'm tired.

Do you even disagree with the points regarding fantasy and inconsistencies?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Ralsei is the most knowledgeable character in the entire series about the mechanics of the verse, and you're refuting the reliability with,

"I know that Character A often lies by omission, and have some secret conspiracy going on behind our back together with Char B, who caged SOUL in order to further their goals, and who also has shady business with main antagonist. Char A is still as reliable as your usual story narrator"
Not entertaining this kinda of argument.

Most reliable and knowledgeable person is Gaster. Most reliable source of information is Prophecy. And it states that if Balance between DW and LW shatters, calamity occurs. If there not enough of DWs, calamity would have occured too.
It clearly doesn't view as metaphysically hierarci

It's fiction, anything can alter perception of characters. In fact, you just brushed aside overwhelming evidence that it does.

"It's safe to say it doesn't mess with our perception because of powerscaling logic that Toby Fox doesn't know about" is not a counter.

This analogy is actually

Sure, anything can alter perception of char. If they are under influence of caster. Player is not under it, game accents numerous times on the fact that Player senses are different from Gang and SOUL senses. It's important to the plot that we can just zoom out and watch for Susie(iirc it happened in all chapters). And this ability was used by Gang (by Ralsei routinely to hide information, by Kris to help Susie in SoJ fight).

"Dark Worlds aren't illusions because Ralsei, who is an illusion, says so"

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

A property that has consciousness can inform about its own property, that's not a defeater.

Misinterpreted my argument.
"If we believe that DW are fully illusion, cus Ralsei said so, we are forced to accept that Ralsei is illusion, and thus his words are unreliable(argument undercuts itself)".
Something can't have consciousness, if it's just an illusion.

It might not have come to you now but THERE IS CURRENTLY NO ARGUMENT THAT FAVORS IRL SPEEDS

I will let sups make args for why particular things(Tasque sound waves, Wicabel shockwaves, etc..), I don't have enough time. Ok?

The CRT does not argue Darkners are illusions in the sense of not existing or having no causal efficacy. It argues the Dark World's physics are fantasy-based rather than physically realistic.

Ohh. OHHH.
This one is more reasonable claim. But why are you arguing so much for them being illusion, why you discuss so much.
Like, this example:

Perception manipulation versus reality warping are not the only two options available. The CRT's position is neither of these. That third option is precisely what Ralsei describes, and it's what the game's mechanical evidence supports. The gas analogy was built to exclude it, but excluding an option from your analogy doesn't make that option unavailable in the actual argument.

This CRT position is explicitly second one:
"Gas reality warps room. It actually changes room. And it also it changes physics completely, from realistic to fantasy like one, thus we shouldn't rely on sound waves being same speed as irl one, etc..."*
It's normal position to have. But OP(as in opening part) and many arguments you have present different position.

But for some reason KE is fine(I don't complain)*

** Hold on, why are you against sound waves in one place cus of DW physics. But not against them in another place?

It's sound manipulation, the "volume" of the game is increased, which increases the volume of the laser. It having a tail is an anti-feat. It shouldn't curve.

They(Gang) are smashing buttons, which among things it does, also increases laser thickness. Also, what curve.

That last part is just false, oh my God.

If MFTL+ can't see, and can't percept, he is getting hit by enemy.

Is your entire response just incorrect affirmations. Shockwaves don't vary in speed if they come from the same source, at the same time, and are travelling through the same medium (air)

Check the sequence. Some shockwaves appear a bit later than others.

That would cause omnidirectional increase in brightness, not cannons of light that are just triangles moving through space in random directions.

Question: North pole of Sun suddenly got brighter. Would outside observer see omnidirectional increase in brightness, or something else?

You didn't even address the other points outside of the "fake" dark world stuff.

And this is problem, since supposedly not even you claim that DWs are fake. Only that they have fantasy physics.
What's point of talking that much about placebo effect and such, if you still believe that (for example) electricity is "real", is just goes with fantasy physic(and fantasy electricity usually still shares many similarities with real ones).
Ima be real, unlike DBZ multipliers thread, this CRT being cluttered is your fault(obviously not intentional).

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Finally a real counter-argument.

Read the OP.

What is being argued here is that specific prophecy. You literally said earlier that your interpretation was supposed to be the intended reading, even though the prophecy itself does not actually say (or even remotely imply) that interpretation. If anything, the prophecy supports my argument more that Light and Dark exist in some form of vertical balance under the same overarching reality.

I explain why I don't think they're good ones or why they don't apply here. If you're making a false equivalence, what am I supposed to do, your argument is basically that we shouldn't trust Ralsei because he is very very sad about not being real, which is, of course, ridiculous.

I'm tired, boss. Just read the OP and the scan where Ralsei literally admits that he is forced by his own nature to know about the rules of the world, in the very scene you claim he is breaking down.

My argument is that Ralsei’s insecurity and lack of self-worth should not automatically be taken as a literal cosmological statement about the setting itself. The entire chapter is practically centered around this theme. Hell, even Tenna experiences similar issues, which is exactly why he relates to Ralsei in the first place. What you are doing is taking one emotionally negative moment and inflating it into some massive clarification about the ontology of the entire setting.

Yes, Ralsei is “forced to know” certain truths, but does that suddenly erase his emotional issues and lack of self-worth? The guy has basically been ALONE his entire life. He knows everything, yet has almost nothing. It would not surprise me at all if someone like him started questioning his own significance or saying things like, “Am I even real?” That kind of thing can happen to literally anyone. It is a psychological effect.

Ralsei uses the Light World as a point of comparison for why he feels small or insignificant, even though objectively he is just as real as the Light World itself, simply perceived differently. And like I said in my arguments, it is just a matter of perspective. Almost nobody really sees themselves as not real. We literally got King who sees himself as equal if not superior than Lightners. He know this because he has lived with them before being abandoned.

If we are REALLY going with this “the Dark World is not real” interpretation, then that would mean the Dark World is entirely dependent on the Light World for its existence, which does not actually seem to be the case entirely. Yes, Dark Worlds are created through LIGHTNER intervention, but DARKNERS themselves are repeatedly implied to have lived and experienced relationships long before we even encounters them. We see this with King and his history with Queen, Tenna and his relationship with Spamton, and many other examples that imply preexisting lives, memories, and histories before they physically “take form” in front of us.

And this is even more self-evident when you consider the prophecy itself using the term “eternal”, which heavily implies that Darkness has always existed in some form rather than being a temporary or ontologically fake phenomenon.

It's the moment where Susie says she will donate Tenna to another Lightner. Ralsei says that because they are not real, they shouldn't make lightners worry. Tenna never reacts to that information like it's some sort of revelation, he just understand Ralsei's point to an extent before Susie tells him that it doesn't matter to her. Like, you need to genuinely purposefully misunderstand the scene and my point if you think this is not valid evidence that Ralsei's conclusions about his lack of "realness" is not bias, but comes from genuine understanding of the world he's in, which, again, is built-in by nature.

The entire chapter is practically centered around this theme. Hell, even Tenna experiences similar issues, which is exactly why he relates to Ralsei in the first place.

You can claim his lack of self-preservation/self-worth is bias, but that's not what I use to argue.

But that seems to be actually the case.

The Sans point is non-sense.

It isn't. But I don't want to derail this further.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

You didn't even address the other points outside of the "fake" dark world stuff.

Because I specifically disagree with the Dark World being fake stuff?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"I know that Character A often lies by omission, and have some secret conspiracy going on behind our back together with Char B, who caged SOUL in order to further their goals, and who also has shady business with main antagonist. Char A is still as reliable as your usual story narrator"
Not entertaining this kinda of argument.

Neither am I. Ralsei is reliable, and you're using literal headcanon. Get out of this thread, genuinely.

Most reliable and knowledgeable person is Gaster.

Gaster is not even technically canon.

And it states that if Balance between DW and LW shatters, calamity occurs. If there not enough of DWs, calamity would have occured too.
It clearly doesn't view as metaphysically hierarci

Not the argument being made. Doesn't say shit about balance.

Sure, anything can alter perception of char. If they are under influence of caster. Player is not under it, game accents numerous times on the fact that Player senses are different from Gang and SOUL senses. It's important to the plot that we can just zoom out and watch for Susie(iirc it happened in all chapters). And this ability was used by Gang (by Ralsei routinely to hide information, by Kris to help Susie in SoJ fight).

The player is under the same perception as the game characters and the actual real player. You're saying "the game can't have perception manipulation because it shouldn't manipulate our real life perception", which, it doesn't, we're just looking at a screen. Not a defeater.

Misinterpreted my argument.
"If we believe that DW are fully illusion, cus Ralsei said so, we are forced to accept that Ralsei is illusion, and thus his words are unreliable(argument undercuts itself)".
Something can't have consciousness, if it's just an illusion.

This is just false. Being an illusion doesn't stop anything from providing accurate information. That's just not related.

Ohh. OHHH.
This one is more reasonable claim. But why are you arguing so much for them being illusion, why you discuss so much.

That's verbatim what's stated by the game. The fact they're an illusion in some sense of the word is one supporting argument between many that the DW is not realistic.

This CRT position is explicitly second one:
"Gas reality warps room. It actually changes room. And it also it changes physics completely, from realistic to fantasy like one, thus we shouldn't rely on sound waves being same speed as irl one, etc..."*
It's normal position to have. But OP(as in opening part) and many arguments you have present different position.

It changes perception, as, again, was verbatim stated by the dialogue in the game. It doesn't, you're just genuinely not tracking.

But for some reason KE is fine(I don't complain)*

** Hold on, why are you against sound waves in one place cus of DW physics. But not against them in another place?

Because magic is fantasy, KE is not.

They(Gang) are smashing buttons, which among things it does, also increases laser thickness. Also, what curve.

Yes, they smash the volume button, which increases the sound, volume, and the volume of attacks, this is sound manipulation affecting a laser.... If a laser has a tail, how is it thinner than the rest of the laser?

If MFTL+ can't see, and can't percept, he is getting hit by enemy.

Not if the enemy is 0.0000000000000000000000000001% of their speed. They have ears, smell, touch. They would be in another universe before my arm finished extending.

Check the sequence. Some shockwaves appear a bit later than others.

Which is precisely the anti-feat.

Question: North pole of Sun suddenly got brighter. Would outside observer see omnidirectional increase in brightness, or something else?

The outside observer wouldn't have the whole scope of the sun. We're seeing from a 2D perspective, this doesn't work.

Say we see the sun in a 2D perspective. We can see the light irradiating from it in a perfect circle. Would an increase in brightness in specific locations make the sun shoot out beams of light from said locations like a beacon?

No. That region of the solar disk would just look brighter while the glow around the Sun becomes slightly more intense near that side. The overall circular appearance stays intact.

And this is problem, since supposedly not even you claim that DWs are fake. Only that they have fantasy physics.
What's point of talking that much about placebo effect and such, if you still believe that (for example) electricity is "real", is just goes with fantasy physic(and fantasy electricity usually still shares many similarities with real ones).

Ima be real, unlike DBZ multipliers thread, this CRT being cluttered is your fault(obviously not intentional).

I apologize for believing Deltarune supporters read downgraded threads:

TL;DR: Dark Worlds are fantasy and everything in them is not supposed to mimick reality.

The Dark World where all magic is present, is a fantasy created by willpower whose Darkners reflect the will.

He even makes a point about your mind not being able to make something out of nothing when the lights go out.

Every property inside the dark worlds is fanciful, unreal and bizarre, with no regards for realism whatsoever.

clearest demonstrations that Dark World capabilities are expressions of psychological content rather than physical properties

Dark World magic is a cosmological placebo. The fire feels real. The ice feels real. The lightning feels real. But none of them are operating through the physical mechanisms that real fire, ice, and lightning require.

OP literally always used the illusion and fake approach to indicate how fanciful the world is, not to suggest they're literally 11-C.

As Oda said, this is a matter of reading comprehension.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What is being argued here is that specific prophecy

The prophecy uses the same wording of "light and dark" that the entire game promotes as an analogy for reality and fantasy.

"world of light which beneath has an eternal night", written as a poem, quite literally means "real world which has fantasy under it".

Several pieces of evidence that the game itself considers these things as metaphorical analogies would suddenly get literal with the poem-like prophecy?

My argument is that Ralsei’s insecurity and lack of self-worth should not automatically be taken as a literal cosmological statement about the setting itself. The entire chapter is practically centered around this theme. Hell, even Tenna experiences similar issues, which is exactly why he relates to Ralsei in the first place. What you are doing is taking one emotionally negative moment and inflating it into some massive clarification about the ontology of the entire setting.

Yes, Ralsei is “forced to know” certain truths, but does that suddenly erase his emotional issues and lack of self-worth? The guy has basically been ALONE his entire life. He knows everything, yet has almost nothing. It would not surprise me at all if someone like him started questioning his own significance or saying things like, “Am I even real?” That kind of thing can happen to literally anyone. It is a psychological effect.

Ralsei uses the Light World as a point of comparison for why he feels small or insignificant, even though objectively he is just as real as the Light World itself, simply perceived differently. And like I said in my arguments, it is just a matter of perspective. Almost nobody really sees themselves as not real. We literally got King who sees himself as equal if not superior than Lightners. He know this because he has lived with them before being abandoned.

If we are REALLY going with this “the Dark World is not real” interpretation, then that would mean the Dark World is entirely dependent on the Light World for its existence, which does not actually seem to be the case entirely. Yes, Dark Worlds are created through LIGHTNER intervention, but DARKNERS themselves are repeatedly implied to have lived and experienced relationships long before we even encounters them. We see this with King and his history with Queen, Tenna and his relationship with Spamton, and many other examples that imply preexisting lives, memories, and histories before they physically “take form” in front of us.

And this is even more self-evident when you consider the prophecy itself using the term “eternal”, which heavily implies that Darkness has always existed in some form rather than being a temporary or ontologically fake phenomenon.

His lack of self-worth comes from the fact the Dark World is not real. It's a literal part of his character. He doesn't "arbitrarily decides that he's not worth anything and THEN concludes he's not real"

He literally claims no Darkner is real at all. He wouldn't say that if it was just he being big baby sad about himself. What is this interpretation? Ralsei literally proves this by explaining in many ways how the things in the Dark World don't really fuel the Light World body like food. Darkners also become mundane objects in the Light World. You're arguing with the actual narrative.

"Dark World is just as real because of arrogant King" is certainly a take.

"Dark World has to be real because it doesn't depend on Light World", the memories literally come from the fact they have real object counterparts and experiences as said objects. It's by interacting with the Light World, that shitty plug guy from Chapter 3 has specific memories about Kris in the light world.

Tenna's memories come from the fact he interacted with the light world. It does depend on the light world

Yes, fantasy has always existed in imagination, that's not a defeater.

Claiming the entirety of Chapter 3's lore drop is "just Ralsei blatantly lying about the mechanics of the world" when it's literally the entire theme of the chapter (that being "not real" doesn't matter to friendship) tells me you're not even being honest about this.

The entire chapter is practically centered around this theme. Hell, even Tenna experiences similar issues, which is exactly why he relates to Ralsei in the first place.

The entire chapter relies on Ralsei being right about this, but the conclusion he is not worth love being an incorrect one derive from that fact.

Because I specifically disagree with the Dark World being fake stuff?

Not the only argument presented against 7-B and FTL, genuinely what are you talking about?

 

[AyOgUyS]

I’m just gonna give another friendly reminder to everyone to maintain respectfulness.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

The prophecy uses the same wording of "light and dark" that the entire game promotes as an analogy for reality and fantasy.

"world of light which beneath has an eternal night", written as a poem, quite literally means "real world which has fantasy under it".

Several pieces of evidence that the game itself considers these things as metaphorical analogies would suddenly get literal with the poem-like prophecy?

The problem with this is that Ralsei is trying to view himself from the perspective of the Light World rather than from the perspective of the Dark World itself. He describes himself as “not real” because that is how LIGHTNERS would typically perceive DARKNERS. And remember, Ralsei has been alone for practically his entire life. Most of his time has been spent with knowledge tied to the prophecy, which itself contains far more information centered around LIGHTNERS and their world than it does about DARKNERS. So it is really not some earth-shattering assumption to say that he has internalized the perspective of LIGHTNERS more than that of his own people.

I mean, what kind of “not real” object can literally move between different Dark Worlds without being physically carried around by a LIGHTNER? From the perspective of the Light World, that would effectively look like teleportation, or are we seriously supposed to assume Ralsei (as an object) just grew legs and walked there himself? So it is pretty clear that DARKNERS are genuinely alive in actuality. The Light World simply interprets their existence differently, which is something the story has already established multiple times.

"Dark World is just as real because of arrogant King" is certainly a take.

Because there was a time where they actually lived together, and the mindset was that both of them are a real being because of it. Like I said previously:

The question becomes philosophical really, “If people had known magic, would the term be still not real or just the truth?” So ultimately, this really just comes down to perspective. If LIGHTNERS were to live alongside DARKNERS again, would DARKNERS suddenly stop being “fake”? Or would people finally acknowledge them as real?

"Dark World has to be real because it doesn't depend on Light World", the memories literally come from the fact they have real object counterparts and experiences as said objects. It's by interacting with the Light World, that shitty plug guy from Chapter 3 has specific memories about Kris in the light world.

Tenna's memories come from the fact he interacted with the light world. It does depend on the light world

And how exactly did King know Queen in the first place? King originates from a deck of cards at the school, while Queen is tied to a computer in the library. Their physical locations are nowhere near each other. And what about Tenna and Spamton? Tenna is literally an analog tv with no internet access (he doesn't even know what an internet is), while Spamton is directly associated with the internet itself. You're not even considering these implications into account.

Claiming the entirety of Chapter 3's lore drop is "just Ralsei blatantly lying about the mechanics of the world" when it's literally the entire theme of the chapter (that being "not real" doesn't matter to friendship) tells me you're not even being honest about this.

That's not even the theme of the chapter. It's about loneliness and the self-esteem of the characters (we literally see this with Tenna and Susie, not just Ralsei). They share the same problem.

Not the only argument presented against 7-B and FTL, genuinely what are you talking about?

On what part of that sentence you didn't understand? Is it the “specifically disagree” or the “Dark World being fake stuff”?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I’m just gonna give another friendly reminder to everyone to maintain respectfulness.

Soo do you agree we should just cut Ftl stuff ? The MSH+ meta sound more interesting

 

[GodlyCharmander]

-snip-

I'm sick of this.

---

"Ralsei only describes Darkners as 'not real' from a Lightner perspective"​

This is a false to extraordinary proportions. You are suggesting that Ralsei, the character whose entire purpose in the story is to be an exposition delivery device for cosmological facts, is instead giving us a subjective Lightner-biased emotional perspective when he describes the Dark World as fake. Let me demonstrate why that is completely untenable.

Ralsei does not say "from your perspective, this world might seem like a fantasy." He gives us a mechanical, causal explanation of how Dark Worlds work. He explains negative photons, the role of willpower, the role of the dark fountain, and how darkness extrapolates concepts from your imagination into form. This is not a perspective. You don't accidentally explain the physics of a cosmological process from a biased cultural viewpoint. He's not saying "Lightners think we're fake." He's saying the world is an illusion, that all the dark fountains do is turn everything into a fantasy, and that the Dark World isn't real, including its locations and citizens.
Furthermore, the document establishes that Ralsei's information on world mechanics has been proven correct multiple times:

• He predicted how Titans would emerge from Berdly creating a new fountain inside the Dark World, and it was proven true in Chapter 4
• He knew the ending of the prophecy would hurt Susie and Kris, and Susie smashing the glass proved him right.

The document makes this explicit: he lies to protect emotional wellbeing, not to fabricate cosmological explanations. He has zero motivation to lie about how darkness and willpower interact to create pocket dimensions. That explanation serves no protective function. It is not a comfort lie. It is the truth of the world delivered by the character whose entire existence is oriented around knowing exactly that.
And in case Ralsei wasn't enough for you, Susie herself confirms the world is "too good to be real". Susie, who has no reason to bias herself toward Lightner perspectives at Darkners' expense, independently validates the exact same reading.

Your point makes no sense. Absolutely no sense.

If he hates himself, why would he extend this "not real" thing to his friends like Lancer? To the entire concept of Dark WORLDS? To Tenna?

Do you think Ralsei is just an a-hole for no reason?

---

"Ralsei moved between Dark Worlds, so Darkners must be genuinely alive"​

The argument is essentially: "Ralsei moved, therefore he is real." But nothing in the document's framework prevents a fantasy construct from persisting or relocating within the broader framework of darkness that sustains it. The darkness is the substrate. Ralsei is a construct of that substrate. Him persisting across Dark Worlds no more proves he is physically real than a dream character persisting across different dream sequences proves they have mass and tissue.

Furthermore, it is worth noting that Ralsei is explicitly a unique case. He is the only Darkner demonstrated to travel between Dark Worlds through means the story has not yet explained. Every other Darkner is anchored to their object and their world. Queen cannot go to Ralsei's castle. King cannot wander into Cyber City.

More critically, this argument does nothing to address the actual evidence of the fake nature of the Dark World:

• You can taste Dark World food, but you won't get satiated, and Susie would be hungry if she ate it. Taste is a perception. Satiation is a physical state. The Dark World produces the former but not the latter.
• Being frozen solid in the Dark World produces no frostbite in the real world. Berdly's low temperature barely noticeable, not physical reality.
• Getting your arm toasted and fried produces no burns, just an arm that won't move. Berdly only saw his arm burn in a DREAM.

The game is not subtle. These are direct, explicit demonstrations that Dark World phenomena do not produce physical states in the real world, because they are not physically real processes. Ralsei walking somewhere doesn't overturn any of this. At all.

---

"King knew Queen, Tenna knew Spamton, therefore Darkners are real"​

This is a non sequitur of the highest order and it also misidentifies the actual reason these characters know each other

The argument is: Darkners from different physical source locations can know each other, therefore Darkners are genuinely real. But the status of Darkners as fantasy constructs has absolutely nothing to do with whether they can interact with each other.

Let's address the factual premise first, because you haven't considered the implications at all. Darkners do not have free-floating consciousness that transcends their anchor objects. They experience the world through the objects they are anchored to. This is established clearly:

• Tenna remembers being watched as a real TV. His memories, his identity, his entire sense of self come from his existence as a physical television set that real people watched.
• King remembers being played as a card. The entire emotional core of Chapter 1 is built around the unused classroom, the abandoned toys, the cards that stopped being played with. King's longing and rage are a direct reflection of that abandonment.

So the question of how King and Queen know each other has a completely mundane, in-universe answer that you ignored: Kris and Dess brought both the laptop (Queen) and the cards (King) to play with at their house. They were in the same physical location, handled by the same children, during the same period of time. The anchor objects shared a space. Of course the resulting Darkners have history with each other. This requires zero physical reality on the Darkners' part. It requires only that their anchor objects coexisted, which the story explicitly confirms they did.
Your entire "how did King know Queen" question collapses the moment you account for this. There is no mystery. There is no implication that Darkners transcend their anchor objects or possess independent physical existence. The answer is Kris and Dess put them in the same room.

Dream characters interact with each other all the time. Characters in a shared illusion can have relationships. The question of whether they are physically real is entirely separate from whether they can form social bonds within the framework of the fantasy that sustains them.
Furthermore, Darkners and their properties are given form by the Dark Fountain, which is itself a product of the Lightner's willpower and the darkness. The fact that King and Queen can recognize each other doesn't require physical reality. It only requires that the darkness, as a conceptual and imaginative substrate, can allow constructs to have memory and relationship within that substrate. That is entirely consistent with the established mechanics and entirely irrelevant to whether Dark World magic has realistic physical properties.

You're also doing something strategically convenient here: you're shifting the goalposts from "is Dark World magic physically realistic" to "are Darkners really alive." These are two completely different questions. Even if we granted you every single point about Darkner sentience, it would do nothing to establish that magic shaped like sound travels at 343 m/s, or that something called a laser moves at c. The CRT is about speed scaling and energy calculations, not about whether Darkners have qualia.

---

"Chapter 3's theme is about loneliness, not the Dark World being fake"​

Themes are not mutually exclusive. A chapter can be about loneliness and contain explicit cosmological exposition. These are not competing interpretations where one invalidates the other. Ralsei's extended mechanical explanation of how Dark Worlds are created, what negative photons do, how willpower shapes the fantasy, is not a metaphor for loneliness. It is a literal in-universe explanation of how the world works, delivered by the character whose narrative role is specifically to deliver exactly that kind of information.

You are essentially arguing that because a chapter has an emotional theme, its explicit worldbuilding dialogue should be reinterpreted to fit that theme rather than taken at face value. That is not how fiction works. Especially not with a character like Ralsei, who is blatant exposition delivery, with deliberate 4th wall awareness, and who knows all the rules of the world since the moment he began existing.

---

As demonstrated above, every piece of evidence you provided:

• Ralsei's alleged Lightner bias is refuted by his track record of accurate cosmological predictions and his lack of motivation to lie about mechanics. Also that bias wouldn't extend to anyone but himself, yet it doesn't.
• Ralsei moving between worlds is irrelevant to whether Dark World magic has physical properties
• King/Queen and Tenna/Spamton knowing each other is a non sequitur, doesn't address speed scaling or physical realism of magic. And has an actual explanation.
• Chapter theme being loneliness is non-exclusive, doesn't invalidate explicit worldbuilding dialogue

None of it constitutes a positive argument that Dark World magic behaves like real-world physics. You have not demonstrated that sound-shaped magic travels at 343 m/s. You have not demonstrated that laser-shaped magic travels at c. You have not explained why music notes outspeed bullets in the same battle, why shockwaves travel at different speeds through the same medium, or why characters who dodge alleged SoL attacks get tagged by sound in the same chapter.


You contributed NOTHING.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Soo do you agree we should just cut Ftl stuff ? The MSH+ meta sound more interesting

See my original message on the first page.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

See my original message on the first page.

Okay but what about the light that are connected to "player town" ? Dosent that contradict the op point non-eclidian darkworld ?

 

[IDK3465]

Hey, I have a question:
What would the low tiers scale to now that Tenna's jump is no longer viable? Are we just gonna go back to 9-A off of the Berdly feat, or are the non-speed-related battlebox feats like Tenna's Weather Report still valid?

 

[ScoutManeater]

I do want to add that the remote that specifically shoots out lasers TV remotes produce infrared light which is where the remote shoots its lasers out of this is just one point I wanted to bring up on the side of Faster then Light speeds

aswell I feel like being hit in the dark isnt the greatest anti feat

Also the fact the SOUL is affected by the dark world is also a good point we know the SOUL can move see and feel on its own as Kris beats it up we move through the vents as the SOUL the stand in for the player basically is still affected by the dark worlds

though this is all I have gathered from the posts im still neutral because I feel like both sides bring up great points that should be addressed.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Okay but what about the light that are connected to "player town" ? Dosent that contradict the op point non-eclidian darkworld ?

I genuinely do not understand what you’re talking about

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I genuinely do not understand what you’re talking about

Besicaly these two space are connected somehow and seems to work like how you get inside dark world






Also it work like weird like tunnel here

 

[IDK3465]

Hey, I have a question:
What would the low tiers scale to now that Tenna's jump is no longer viable? Are we just gonna go back to 9-A off of the Berdly feat, or are the non-speed-related battlebox feats like Tenna's Weather Report still valid?

We should also try to get the 7-C Titan recalc applied since it seems more accurate to the Titan's proportions

Also, I could then do Kris vs Minecraft Steve as a valid matchup, so that's funny

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Hey, I have a question:
What would the low tiers scale to now that Tenna's jump is no longer viable? Are we just gonna go back to 9-A off of the Berdly feat, or are the non-speed-related battlebox feats like Tenna's Weather Report still valid?

They should downscale from the higher feats, probably High 8-C since Ch 1 chars can still deal 1 damage to Chapter 3 Kris

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They should downscale from the higher feats, probably High 8-C since Ch 1 chars can still deal 1 damage to Chapter 3 Kris

Think the Pippins deal more than 1 damage yo

 

[IDK3465]

They should downscale from the higher feats, probably High 8-C since Ch 1 chars can still deal 1 damage to Chapter 3 Kris

Ok, it would probably be good to put that in the OP, so staff can see