Terraria Discussion thread #2: Journey's end

[Skarfz]

that logic of assuming the ancient manipulator doesn't conserve mass unlike all the other crafting stations is kinda dumb

that is my point, its still transforming energy into a block anyways.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

that is my point, its still transforming energy into a block anyways.

Yeah, and if that can't be accepted, the dye is still an exception by virtue of being crafted in a regular dye vat, the throne example showing how you need to assume mass is conserved or you have to give up the idea that any craftable item keeps the mass of their component material. After this discussion, I really don't see any argument against the Champion scaling to it.

 

[OrangeFR]

also the bottomless shimmer bucket might be a good candidate for High 3-A/Infinite LS because theres no outliers with it, literally the only one scaling to it would be post-moonlord champion.

IDK bro, that’s probably just a pocket dimension/hammerspace thing.

 

[Skarfz]

IDK bro, that’s probably just a pocket dimension/hammerspace thing.

the bucket isnt a portal, its already the dimension itself.
Bottomless shimmer bucket
Contains an endless amount of shimmer
think of a water well, its small looking outside of it, and then infinite inside.
thats the easiest explanation i could find because the self-replenishing stuff is out of the window, and the biggest issue was that the bottomless buckets were an outlier, but the shimmer bucket is post-anything in the game so theres zero feat contradictions.
im currently preparing stuff for the AP crt so i wont really bother explaining much of the buckets here.

 

[Lou_change]

Is the throne not made out of gold then? Is a regular crafting table magic? By your logic, no craftable item should keep the mass and energy of its component material conserved.

These don't have to be absolute rules you know and the crystal ball creates other items that violate the conservation of mass

Tbh, that logic of assuming the ancient manipulator doesn't conserve mass unlike all the other crafting stations is kinda dumb.

Okay fine. Why would they convert all their energy to mass? The Wings, Armor, Weapons, Hamaxes, Pickaxes, Drills, Bricks, Fragment Blocks, Monoliths, Potion, Celestial Sigil, Lunar Hooks, and Dyes of all fragment types have properties that don't really get explained if you claim that all the celestial energy got turned into matter most commonly glowing. The furniture sets don't glow besides the furniture items that normally glow, but that is probably because on the development side of things all furniture items are just mechanically resprites.

If my nebula fragment hammerspace/pocket dimension explanation is accepted

what if the connection to the pocket dimension is simply severed.


I am getting tired of arguing this and it's not even a CRT so how about we either stop arguing until the CRT or you throw one last rebuttal at me and then we talk about pretty much any other aspect of the game.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I am getting tired of arguing this and it's not even a CRT so how about we either stop arguing until the CRT or you throw one last rebuttal at me and then we talk about pretty much any other aspect of the game.

I thought we were discussing something at the Terraria Discussion thread. I wouldn't even have come up with the nebula dye idea if you weren't discussing with me, man.

These don't have to be absolute rules you know and the crystal ball creates other items that violate the conservation of mass

You can't argue for craftable items keeping their mass if you're going to have exceptions for no clear reason. As I already previously argued, every crafting station is magical, even the most mundane ones like a workbench can create a statue that generates infinite bunnies just out of stone and a bunny. If you want to argue that the nebula dye doesn't keep its mass when its made in a goddamn dye vat, then not a single craftable item in the game can be assumed to keep the mass of its components as every crafting station is magical. Every lifting feat for the Champion using craftable items like the throne would have to be removed, as you can't prove it is actually made out of gold and has the mass of gold. Even an iron bar is a craftable item, you can't prove an iron ore turns into an iron bar when crafted in a furnace, the furnace could be turning it into a block of plastic, but you have to assume the item kept the mass of the material used to craft it.

what if the connection to the pocket dimension is simply severed.

Same problem as before, what if the iron ore is turned into plastic when crafted into a bar? What if the gold bars are turned into a throne made out of butter when crafted into a throne? Its impossible to prove they are actually made out of their components and kept their mass/energy content, every craftable item in the game assumes that it kept being the material used to craft it, you can't make an exception for a single item in the game.

Okay fine. Why would they convert all their energy to mass? The Wings, Armor, Weapons, Hamaxes, Pickaxes, Drills, Bricks, Fragment Blocks, Monoliths, Potion, Celestial Sigil, Lunar Hooks, and Dyes of all fragment types have properties that don't really get explained if you claim that all the celestial energy got turned into matter most commonly glowing. The furniture sets don't glow besides the furniture items that normally glow, but that is probably because on the development side of things all furniture items are just mechanically resprites.

The same reason I argued for in these previous paragraphs.

Not a single valid counterargument was made yet.

 

[Skarfz]

@Arkhal1s4 i got a bit of stuff done about the crossover but you're the one with the most information about the crossover scaling here currently so id like a little bit of input for it.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

@Skarfz You should also mention the Dryad saying she was in Etheria (the world DD takes place in) after you beat the tier 1 Old One's Army, proving the timeframe of the event takes place after Eye of Cthulhu is dead. This prevents any chainscaling problems with EoC as the one fought in DD2 would be a resummoned EoC and not the one the Champion fights pre-boss.

Also, its better to include an argument that the tier 1 and 2 Old One's Army are portrayed as weakened/nerfed compared to the tier 3 version from Post-Golem. That way, there won't be any confusion on why pre-hardmode Champion doesn't scale to the Old One.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

The scaling chain would be:

Old One sustains the multi-galaxy/possibly universal crystalline dimension which collapses when he's defeated > Old One was beaten by the Dungeon Defenders cast > Dungeon Defenders 2's cast is stronger than they were in the original DD > Dryad goes to Etheria in DD2 and is comparable to them and their opponents (Moon Lord > Dryad, so he should scale to that) > Champion fights the full power tier 3 Post-Golem Old One's Army in Terraria > Every Post-Golem characters scales to the Champion.

 

[Lou_change]

What is the idea for the new AP stats

Same problem as before, what if the iron ore is turned into plastic when crafted into a bar?

this seems fundamentally different

Not a single valid counterargument was made yet

your refusal to accept it doesn't invalidate the logic behind it.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

your refusal to accept it doesn't invalidate the logic behind it.

I can say the same. I think we had enough good ideas coming out of this discussion. Let's stop as you suggested.

What is the idea for the new AP stats

DD2 scaling.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Also, its better to include an argument that the tier 1 and 2 Old One's Army are portrayed as weakened/nerfed compared to the tier 3 version from Post-Golem. That way, there won't be any confusion on why pre-hardmode Champion doesn't scale to the Old One.

I forgot to mention, maybe its good to include the fact the Dryad is never canonically killed due to being the last of the Dryads and one with a different name showing up if she dies. She also never canonically fought anything other than the Moon Lord as stated in the lore, as she only uses a buff/debuff aura unlike other npcs which fight directly.

That way, there'll be no chainscaling problems with the Dryad either.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

@Skarfz What about the Old One's profile in VSBW, would it have to be remade in this case?

Some arguments for the crystalline dimension being at least multi-galaxy/possibly universal:

- The dimension contains a spiral galaxy, with the arena where the Old One is fought at being outside that galaxy, meaning it would have to be intergalactic space.

- There's no visible galactic band on the sky (the same one you can view from Earth in a clear sky, which is the Milky Way's galactic band) meaning the arena where the Old One is fought cannot be inside a galaxy and must be in intergalactic space. This invalidates the "starry sky" being stars, as the arena is not inside a galaxy.

- The "starry sky" is shown to be dimmer than the galaxy itself, the points of light seem to be more like blurred spots, indicating they are most likely galaxies. The points of light also look to be further away than the galaxy, indicating it is most likely an intergalactic night sky.

- The patterns of the light points behind the spiral galaxy are similar to galaxy filaments, backing up it being an intergalactic sky.

 

[Skarfz]

@Skarfz What about the Old One's profile in VSBW, would it have to be remade in this case?

Some arguments for the crystalline dimension being at least multi-galaxy/possibly universal:

- The dimension contains a spiral galaxy, with the arena where the Old One is fought at being outside that galaxy, meaning it would have to be intergalactic space.

- There's no visible galactic band on the sky (the same one you can view from Earth in a clear sky, which is the Milky Way's galactic band) meaning the arena where the Old One is fought cannot be inside a galaxy and must be in intergalactic space. This invalidates the "starry sky" being stars, as the arena is not inside a galaxy.

- The "starry sky" is shown to be dimmer than the galaxy itself, the points of light seem to be more like blurred spots, indicating they are most likely galaxies. The points of light also look to be further away than the galaxy, indicating it is most likely an intergalactic night sky.

- The patterns of the light points behind the spiral galaxy are similar to galaxy filaments, backing up it being an intergalactic sky.

Probably would need to be revised because otherwise it would be confusing, but i think they will understand the core of the argument, its pretty clearly a bunch of galaxies in the dimension

 

[Lou_change]

I can say the same. I think we had enough good ideas coming out of this discussion. Let's stop as you suggested.

I mean before that

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Probably would need to be revised because otherwise it would be confusing, but i think they will understand the core of the argument, its pretty clearly a bunch of galaxies in the dimension

The Old One has a profile, but I don't think the DD verse has one, would that need to be made?

About keys, the Eye of Cthulhu can be fought on the forest biome map of Terraria in the DD2 crossover, but it isn't the same one as the pre-boss EoC since the timeframe of the DD2 crossover is after it has been killed, so it is another EoC. Would EoC need a profile in the theoretical DD verse page, would it only have a different key in its Terraria profile or would it be both?

There's also the Dryad. Would she need a profile in both verses? Would she have a key with DD2 scaling in Terraria and also another profile in the theoretical DD verse page? Or would only the Terraria profile be needed since the crossover is canon to both verses? Doesn't that mean that every new ability the Dryad gets in DD2 would have to be added to her theoretical profile?

 

[Skarfz]

The Old One has a profile, but I don't think the DD verse has one, would that need to be made?

the old one profile is enough, just might need a change on the ap/dura

About keys, the Eye of Cthulhu can be fought on the forest biome map of Terraria in the DD2 crossover, but it isn't the same one as the pre-boss EoC since the timeframe of the DD2 crossover is after it has been killed, so it is another EoC. Would EoC need a profile in the theoretical DD verse page, would it only have a different key in its Terraria profile or would it be both?

new profile im guessing since pre-DD eye of cthulhu doesnt have any of the feats from the revived/resummoned eye

There's also the Dryad. Would she need a profile in both verses? Would she have a key with DD2 scaling in Terraria and also another profile in the theoretical DD verse page? Or would only the Terraria profile be needed since the crossover is canon to both verses? Doesn't that mean that every new ability the Dryad gets in DD2 would have to be added to her theoretical profile?

the dryad will need only one profile and it would be for terraria since she has canonically gone to DD and then came back stronger, so my proposal would be, for example:
8-B (should be comparable to a post-EoC champion), then she gets her specific speed rating and terraria-only abilities
3-B, Likely 3-A (was sent to the DD2 universe and became stronger, being equal to the heroes who defeated the Old One) and then her terraria abilities + DD2 abilities

 

[Skarfz]

one question though, it seems like the dryad already becomes really powerful ever since the tier 2 OOA, her in-game dialogue from terraria goes only up to tier 2, and tier 2 OOA is like post-one mech
would this be potential for earlier 3-B scaling or nah?

 

[Arkhal1s4]

the dryad will need only one profile and it would be for terraria since she has canonically gone to DD and then came back stronger, so my proposal would be, for example:
8-B (should be comparable to a post-EoC champion), then she gets her specific speed rating and terraria-only abilities
3-B, Likely 3-A (was sent to the DD2 universe and became stronger, being equal to the heroes who defeated the Old One) and then her terraria abilities + DD2 abilities

Yeah, that seems fair.

What about the argument of the post-credits endgame Champion being able to kill the Dryad since she only canonically lives until the credits? Maybe if the Dryad gets some new type of hax or resistance in DD2, the endgame Champion could in turn get some more hax for being able to kill her. That would require taking a really deep look at the DD verse though. Not that it's super important, the main arguments for the scale of the feat, scaling chain, canonicity and timeframes are already good enough for now.

one question though, it seems like the dryad already becomes really powerful ever since the tier 2 OOA, her in-game dialogue from terraria goes only up to tier 2, and tier 2 OOA is like post-one mech
would this be potential for earlier 3-B scaling or nah?

The Dryad never fights (she uses buffs/debuffs) or dies canonically so she can't make anyone chainscale, the Moon Lord fought her canonically but that was before the DD2 crossover. The only way for an earlier scaling chain would be for the Champion to have fought the DD2 EoC, which is impossible. The Dryad says "When I was in Etheria" only after you beat the tier 1 OOA, so it can be assumed that she entered the portal either when you start the OOA event with the Etheria crystal for the first time (which creates the portal she enters the DD2 verse with) or at the earliest it would be after you find the Tarvernkeep npc from DD2, as you could argue that the Dryad could have gone to DD2 before that because of him. Even if you argue that she got to DD2 even earlier than when you find the Tavernkeep, it simply cannot be before EoC because the Dryad spawning in your world requires EoC to be dead, so the DD2 EoC isn't the same one and can't chainscale the verse earlier.

 

[Skarfz]

What about the argument of the post-credits endgame Champion being able to kill the Dryad since she only canonically lives until the credits? Maybe if the Dryad gets some new type of hax or resistance in DD2, the endgame Champion could in turn get some more hax for being able to kill her. That would require taking a really deep look at the DD verse though. Not that it's super important, the main arguments for the scale of the feat, scaling chain, canonicity and timeframes are already good enough for now.

im sure DD2 has some good hax so ill check more of it out later, dd2 itself is the reason champion will already have abstract NPI too

The Dryad never fights (she uses buffs/debuffs) or dies canonically so she can't make anyone chainscale, the Moon Lord fought her canonically but that was before the DD2 crossover. The only way for an earlier scaling chain would be for the Champion to have fought the DD2 EoC, which is impossible. The Dryad says "When I was in Etheria" only after you beat the tier 1 OOA, so it can be assumed that she entered the portal either when you start the OOA event with the Etheria crystal for the first time (which creates the portal she enters the DD2 verse with) or at the earliest it would be after you find the Tarvernkeep npc from DD2, as you could argue that the Dryad could have gone to DD2 before that because of him. Even if you argue that she got to DD2 even earlier than when you find the Tavernkeep, it simply cannot be before EoC because the Dryad spawning in your world requires EoC to be dead, so the DD2 EoC isn't the same one and can't chainscale the verse earlier.

fair.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I just remembered the Demolitionist, the Goblin Tinkerer and the Wizard also have dialogues about DD2 which only show up after the tier 1 event is defeated, the Pirate and the Cyborg both talk about the Tavernkeep too. The Tavernkeep also shows up in the credits of the game along with the other npcs, he is shown going back to DD2 using the portal, by far one of the best evidences for the canonicity of the crossover. The Tavernkeep's dialogue about the OOA also backs up the tier 1 and 2 OOA being nerfed/weakened compared to tier 3, and that tier 3 is the full power of the enemies in the army.

 

[Skarfz]

I just remembered the Demolitionist, the Goblin Tinkerer and the Wizard also have dialogues about DD2 which only show up after the tier 1 event is defeated, the Pirate and the Cyborg both talk about the Tavernkeep too. The Tavernkeep also shows up in the credits of the game along with the other npcs, he is shown going back to DD2 using the portal, by far one of the best evidences for the canonicity of the crossover. The Tavernkeep's dialogue about the OOA also backs up the tier 1 and 2 OOA being nerfed/weakened compared to tier 3, and that tier 3 is the full power of the enemies in the army.

this has to be the most straightfoward canonical crossover ever.
shoutout to you for bringing up this DD2 stuff dude

 

[Arkhal1s4]

 

[Arkhal1s4]

I searched for more lore about DD and DD2.

There's not just a single Old One, the Old Ones are an entire race of individuals. Each individual Old One had their power contained inside an individual crystal. This actually means that its not just a sustaining feat, an Old One's power being contained inside a crystal produces a crystalline dimension that is 3-B/3-A in size, meaning it is a creation feat too. Crystals that don't have an Old One's power contained inside it don't have a crystalline dimension.

I'm pretty confident in the 3-B/3-A crossover scaling now. The crossover being canon is incredibly straightforward, the feat is straightforward, the chainscaling is straightforward.

 

[Skarfz]

i kinda wanted to argue that post-plantera champion should be somewhat relative to his post-golem self considering how much of a difference post-plantera makes compared to post-3 mechs.
post plantera stage gives 2 new moon events, powered up solar eclipses which help with crafting the terra blade, a very viable weapon against pretty much anything (its also a weapon on DD2), 4 new armor sets: spectral, shroomite, tiki/spooky armor (these are the last armor you get before going post-golem, where you get beetle armor, but even then these 4 new armor sets are what you use for the endgame until post-moonlord), the biome chests, the powered up dungeon with ectoplasm enemies and stuff, etc.
though i understand if post-plantera doesnt scale to post-golem.
edit; keep in mind this only applies to post-plantera and above, plantera and everything before her would still be on those 8-A tiers. im arguing that post-plantera is a giant power amp to champion.

 

[Skarfz]

the turtle armor is such a weird stage though i really dont know where to place it in tiers, its either 8-A or it jumps to 3-B from being the only available thing ever to post-plantera melee.

 

[Arkhal1s4]

kinda wanted to argue that post-plantera champion should be somewhat relative to his post-golem self

I mean, my argument for the Champion not scaling to the Old One with tier 1 and 2 OOA is that the Tavernkeep says "They didn't put up much of a fight" in tier 1. Tier 1 is also portrayed as way weaker than tier 2 and 3. He only says the OOA used their full power on tier 3.

However, for tier 2 he only says "The Army of the Old One's keeps getting stronger", so maybe you could argue that post-mech Champion would scale? I still think tier 3 is safer though.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m always nervous to look at terraria stuff here since this verse keeps getting kicked into the dirt, but are we finally accepting the crossover
Also did we talk about the meteor shower and lightning from Thunderstorms for speed. The bolts themselves are five frames and deal damage if you run into the during the strike. You can dodge them with a dash to avoid being struck

 

[Skarfz]

However, for tier 2 he only says "The Army of the Old One's keeps getting stronger", so maybe you could argue that post-mech Champion would scale? I still think tier 3 is safer though.

tier 2 OOA is also when tavernkeep starts selling the DD2 heroes armor and stronger sentries (also connects with the fact dryad speaks of her corruption powers where she uses it to get stronger during tier 2), dont know if just the armor counts for anything though, but if post-one or three mechs became 3-B it would be a lot more consistent

 

[Keeweed]

I’ve always placed the Terrarian scaling to dd to besty at the latest, but I don’t know how significant the ogre and equipment is in DD to say if he can scale sooner. End game should 100% scale above the dryad who is on par with the Dd cast

 

[Skarfz]

I’m always nervous to look at terraria stuff here since this verse keeps getting kicked into the dirt, but are we finally accepting the crossover

yea the crossover is actually very consistent, but now it depends on the "unbiased" opinion of staffs.

Also did we talk about the meteor shower and lightning from Thunderstorms for speed. The bolts themselves are five frames and deal damage if you run into the during the strike.

didnt talk about the meteor shower but i took a look at it, should get a speed upgrade from it probably, thunderstorm we did and we concluded its still slower than real life lightning, which makes the speedometer even more wrong.

 

[Keeweed]

Why is it slower? It’s a normal lightning bolt coming from a natural storm. No magic or anything
Like if that doesn’t count what doss

 

[Arkhal1s4]

tier 2 OOA is also when tavernkeep starts selling the DD2 heroes armor and stronger sentries (also connects with the fact dryad speaks of her corruption powers where she uses it to get stronger during tier 2), dont know if just the armor counts for anything though, but if post-one or three mechs became 3-B it would be a lot more consistent

Maybe post-mech would be "8-A, possibly 3-B" while post-golem is "3-B, likely 3-A" ?

 

[Skarfz]

Why is it slower? It’s a normal lightning bolt coming from a natural storm. No magic or anything
Like if that doesn’t count what doss

i know terraria treats it as normal lightning, the issue is that arkhalis pointed out its still somewhat slower than a irl lightning (and idk how the terrarian would scale)
maybe the terrarian doesnt scale to lightning in early game but in post-golem he scales to the lightning bolts from cultist/vortex pillar? my main corcern here is just taking the speedometer out completely.

 

[Keeweed]

Again why would it be slower? Can you clarify why you came to that conclusion. Especially since the same update introduced an event entirely around dodging natural meteors

It’s lightning that comes from a natural storm, which attracts to higher objects, water, and metals, and conducts through water. In what way would it not count as a normal lightning strike and thus is scalable to

 

[Arkhal1s4]

Why is it slower? It’s a normal lightning bolt coming from a natural storm. No magic or anything
Like if that doesn’t count what doss

I actually spent an entire page of this thread talking about the speedometer needing to be dropped because it makes the speed of all natural SoL stuff in the verse nonsensical, like lasers, lightning and light. There's also the fact the speedometer makes every firearm subsonic, makes shockwaves like the ones produced by the Ogre's ground pound subsonic, makes explosions like the ones from explosive trap staff subsonic, makes the tip of the whips subsonic when a whip crack is literally the tip going supersonic, etc.

There's also the fact the speedometer doesn't measure the speed of the dodge which is accepted as movement, so its literally proven that there's types of movement that the speedometer doesn't measure. In my opinion, the speedometer should at most limit the Champion's travel speed and shouldn't limit the speed of natural faster stuff in the verse at it is obviously a gameplay mechanic for balancing. Imagine how broken ranger would be if a regular pre-hardmode gun had a bullet speed faster than the sniper rifle, or if every laser shot by an enemy instantly traveled to the player and was impossible to dodge.

The speedometer being used at all is dumb.

 

[Skarfz]

Lightning/Electricity: Literal lightning (this one is really obvious since you can literally see it travel without slowing the video down), every other lightning based weapon such as the Storm Spear and Thunder Zapper

Again why would it be slower? Can you clarify why you came to that conclusion. Especially since the same update introduced an event entirely around dodging natural meteors

It’s lightning that comes from a natural storm, which attracts to higher objects, water, and metals, and conducts through water. In what way would it not count as a normal lightning strike and thus is scalable to

i didnt really come to that conclusion myself, i didnt even research on it since i was focused more on the DD2/Bottomless bucket stuff i was making on the sandbox, so if im lacking any arguments, my bad, though, quoting arkhalis himself

 

[Keeweed]

I agree, so with that ancient item used to measure purely in game movement speed dropped would the Lightning be fine to use?

 

[Skarfz]

I agree, so with that ancient item used to measure purely in game movement speed dropped would the Lightning be fine to use?

yea, did you already calc anything related to fallen stars and meteor showers being super fast? surely they reach like hypersonic right?

 

[Keeweed]

yea, did you already calc anything related to fallen stars and meteor showers being super fast? surely they reach like hypersonic right?

The falling stars do fall fast enough to be on fire so they are hypersonic by default. They don’t have the fire effect of falling out of the sky if they fall naturally upon hitting an object