General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Elizio33]

Here's my proposal for the new footnote;

"Do not scale Superboy-Prime's base form directly to the Darkest Knight based on their fight. Superboy-Prime was depicted in a highly enraged and unstable state during the battle, which significantly affected his combat behavior and output. Additionally, it is unclear whether the Darkest Knight was operating with the same lethal intensity and full combat commitment that he demonstrated earlier with Perpetua. During this encounter, his actions are heavily oriented toward psychological manipulation and recruitment of Superboy-Prime, whereas against Perpetua his actions were focused on usurpation and destruction, suggesting that immediate annihilation was not his primary objective against Prime. Therefore, his assertion that neither can destroy the other should be viewed as a potentially manipulative dialogue rather than a definitive limitation of either character's abilities."

Again, Superboy-Prime can still have his possible High 1-A tier via raging state based on his fight with TDK, but this note might be necessary as a further explanation.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Here's my proposal for the new footnote;

Do not scale Superboy-Prime's base form directly to the Darkest Knight based on their fight. Superboy-Prime was depicted in a highly enraged and unstable state during the battle, which significantly affected his combat behavior and output. Additionally, it is unclear whether the Darkest Knight was operating with the same lethal intensity and full combat commitment that he demonstrated earlier with Perpetua. During this encounter, his actions were heavily oriented toward psychological manipulation and recruitment of Superboy-Prime, suggesting that immediate annihilation was not his primary objective. Therefore, his assertion that neither can destroy the other should be viewed as a potentially manipulative dialogue rather than a definitive limitation of either character's abilities.

This is what the profile should look like eventually:

BASE (Superboy Prime) - varies up to at least low-1C {put "varies up to 2A" here for now until my Pre-Crisis Herald Tiers Upgrades are accepted}: Comparable to silver age Pre-Crisis Superman at the start of his time with super powers but would become much stronger and demonstrate far greater feats, even when not using rage power, than Pre-Crisis Superman ever did. Additionally, he seemingly metabolizes yellow sun (and other energies) far faster than any other version of Superman. He is far faster than even Golden Age Superman who like the Post Crisis Superman, has no chance of keeping up with him - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #7. He easily overpowered the combine efforts of The Green Lantern Corps during Infinite Crisis. In most of his appearances he is seen taking on a massive number of heroes and frequently is shown blitzing even Wally West - Tales of the Sinestro Corps: Superman-Prime #1. He defeats Ion empowered Sodam Yat - Green Lantern Corps Vol2 #18. In almost all of his appearances he is seen effortlessly overpowering a massive number of heroes and sometimes villains as well and is never really challenged. During the Sinestro Corps War he even flew through and finished off the weakened Anti-Monitor who’s armor had been damaged (he had not fully reformed after the Crisis on Infinite Earths and as such was already pretty weak to begin with) throwing him into space where he would eventually land on the planet Ryut in Sector-666 where it would become the power source of the Black Lantern Corps - Green Lantern Vol4 #25, 42. His only weakness is Red Sun radiation as kryptonite from any universe other than Earth-Prime does not affect him. Additionally, the Krypton from Earth-Prime was engulfed by its Sun Rao as such there was never any Kryptonite produced. He is also, for some reason, immune to magic. Likely 1C (6D - 8D) {put "likely far higher" here for now until both my Pre-Crisis and Rebirth Upgrades are accepted}: was completely unfazed by an attack from Mordru who commands most of the magic in the universe during the 30th century and had absorbed all of the magic of Earth-247 - Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds #2. Mordru is directly comparable to the Time Trapper as Mordru is his greatest rival. Superboy is immune to magic and doesn’t even feel anything from an enraged Black Adam and effortlessly knocks him out with a single punch - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. He could even absorb magic and use it to revert the Shazam Family back to their normal forms. He could easily blitz Shazam (who is now taken on role and power of the Wizard Shazam himself. The Shazam Power was enough for Rebirth Black Adam to fight Dark Pariah and later Deathstroke with Dark Pariah's powers) and Black Adam - Shazam Vol3 #14. He could out speed, while punching, Wally, Bart, and Jay Garrick at the same time - Teen Titans Vol3 #32. He is even unaffected by the Angel Zauriel’s magic sword which can cut through all bonds and even “non-material” entities - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #7, JLA Vol1 #1,000,000. He should be far stronger than Rebirth Superman - Superman Vol6. This is shown by the fact that just getting near Superboy-Prime overloaded Parasite, and actually touching him would kill him - Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin #1. Possibly 1A: The Flashes exhausted the entire Speed Force to imprison Superboy Prime in it - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #4. Later he escaped from the Speed Force and the Flash states that they (the Flash Family) could not hold him there - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #5. It is revealed that the Flashes kept Superboy Prime under Red Sunlight yet he still found a way to escape - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to catch up with him - The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol1 #6. Up to High-1A with Rage Power: During moments of extreme anger or emotional impact Superboy Prime gains access to an entirely greater level of power where he is capable of manipulating reality itself with pure strength alone and able to operate far beyond his normal capabilities. He is considered by Thomas Wayne of the Flashpoint Universe to be capable of manipulating reality alongside beings like the Anti-Monitor, Darkseid, and Barry Allen (though it was really Dr Manhattan that caused the effects of the Flashpoint that eliminated 10 years of history from Post-Crisis and not Barry) - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #2. Superboy Prime demonstrates his reality warping power in the Infinite Crisis with the (in)famous retcon punch which affected Hypertime - Infinite Crisis Secret Files and Origins #1, Batman Vol1 Annual #25, The New History of the DC Universe Vol1 #3. When he escaped the Phantom Zone by shattering it - Teen Titans Vol3 #32. When he is shown manipulating time and Hypertime with his punches in order to travel through them - Superman Vol6 #29,30. When he has a mental break down briefly reverting to villainy and kills a villain and but undoes this with a punch - Superman Vol6 #36. When he punches through Multiversal Barriers to reach the Marvel Multiverse to go on adventures with Spider-Man. While there he shows that he can choose which Marvel Comic issue he wants to travel to and can do this by pure punching strength alone - DC/Marvel: Superman/Spider-Man #1. When he destroys the Crisis worlds during Death Metal. The Crisis Worlds contained a world where he, Superboy prime, won Infinite Crisis, Darkseid won The Final Crisis, and the Anti Monitor won The Crisis on Infinite Earths - Dark Nights: Death Metal Vol1 #4. He destroys the Darkest Knight’s Multiverse (the last 52). Superboy Prime fought the Crisis Energy enhanced Darkest Knight, where he was able to exert significant pressure and gain the upper hand in close-quarters combat putting The Darkest Knight in a subservient position where he had to resort to bargaining. Superboy Prime was going to kill The Darkest Knight and take his powers until distracted by Krypto and convinced to take an alternate path. However, it is uncertain whether The Darkest Knight was fighting at full lethal intent or maximum capacity during this battle. The Darkest Knight stated that neither of them can kill the other so both of them should at the very least be considered equals with the possibility that Superboy Prime is in fact more powerful - Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin #1. He is also is a liar so his statement "You can’t destroy me any more than I can destroy you" might not be true. The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight has a history of hyperbolic and incorrect statements in relation to his power levels and of course out of self preservation it would be in his best interest to say that Superboy Prime cannot kill him, though he could have had alternate unexplored motivations here. Regardless, the Darkest Knight did not want to lose anymore of his High-1A Crisis Energy in a battle with Superboy Prime, as such Superboy Prime at the very least warrants the usage of High-1A levels of power to kill him while in this state of anger. Superboy Prime, his metafictional reality manipulating strength and his fourth wall breaking powers are likely all connected. One likely causes the other, though it is impossible to say which causes which. Remember in the words of Superboy Prime himself: “I’m a power scaler’s dream.” - Superman Vol6 #32. He is also fully aware of how powerful he is and what people say about him online as shown in several of his appearances. He has even defended his character on internet forums.

FULL CAPACITY (Superman Prime) - High-1A: Superman Prime is incomprehensibly superior to his normal self. He is physically aged up by his power-up and as such is made visibly much larger and much more muscular. He tears a hole in the very fabric of Fifth Dimension and forcefully rips Mr Mxyzptlk out so quickly that Miss Gsptlsnz, his wife who was walking next to him, doesn’t even see it happen and only notices that he has disappeared due to the hole torn in the Fifth Dimension into the Bleed - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #31. He tortures Mxyzptlk and when he won’t give him what he wanted (bringing back Earth-Prime) he was going to kill him. Mr Mxyzptlk flees into the Bleed back to the Fifth Dimension in terror from Superman Prime - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #23. Upon returning home, full of panic and fear, he states he never wants to return to the third dimension again and tells his wife they need to seal off the Fifth Dimension forever: “Seal!! Seal the Dimension off! The F-Fifth Dimension! Seal it off! He’s there! He is … the End! I can never go back there!”. Mr Mxyzptlk has never shown such terrror throughout all of his appearances in DC comics, even during the Emperor Joker Storyline when he accidentally gave up 99% of his powers. Mr Mxyzptlk was genuinely scared out of his mind by Superman Prime - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #22. Superman Prime is shown to be able to freely fly through the multiverse during his rampage throughout reality and can even fly and rip through the fabric the Fifth Dimension itself - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #31. He states that he will rip apart the entire multiverse to find his home - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #24. He is even referred to as "the beast" by the monitors and Nix Uotan, the Monitor of Earth-51, loses hope when he realizes that Superman Prime is in his universe and will fight Monarch which will of course result in it being destroyed. There is nothing the Monitors can do to prevent this - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #13. High-1A with Rage Power: far greater than in his base form as Superboy Prime. While completely berserk and more enraged and insane than he has ever been (Superman Prime is already the most insane, angry, and bloodthirsty version of the character to begin with), due to Monitor Solomon telling him that Monarch is destroying his perfect home [(Earth-Prime) (Superboy Prime’s entire rationale as a villain is that he misses his home universe and wants it back thereby removing the immoral Post Crisis Universes and characters, returning to the purity of good versus evil as depicted in Pre-Crisis Continuity)], he fights Monarch (leading to his most famous quote "I'll Kill you! I'll Kill you to Death!!") but expends all of his built up energy in the process. Ultimately Superman Prime was unable to actually damage Monarch and instead ends the fight by ripping open Monarch's radiation containment suit destroying the universe in the process - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #13. The explosion instantly sends Prime into the Timestream where he is found by the Time Trapper as shown in Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds. His exposure to the Timestream is how he becomes the Time Trapper in the first place.

 

[Elizio33]

This is what the profile should look like eventually:

BASE (Superboy Prime) - varies up to at least low-1C {put "varies up to 2A" here for now until my Pre-Crisis Herald Tiers Upgrades are accepted}: Comparable to silver age Pre-Crisis Superman at the start of his time with super powers but would become much stronger and demonstrate far greater feats, even when not using rage power, than Pre-Crisis Superman ever did. Additionally, he seemingly metabolizes yellow sun (and other energies) far faster than any other version of Superman. He is far faster than even Golden Age Superman who like the Post Crisis Superman, has no chance of keeping up with him - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #7. He easily overpowered the combine efforts of The Green Lantern Corps during Infinite Crisis. In most of his appearances he is seen taking on a massive number of heroes and frequently is shown blitzing even Wally West - Tales of the Sinestro Corps: Superman-Prime #1. He defeats Ion empowered Sodam Yat - Green Lantern Corps Vol2 #18. In almost all of his appearances he is seen effortlessly overpowering a massive number of heroes and sometimes villains as well and is never really challenged. During the Sinestro Corps War he even flew through and finished off the weakened Anti-Monitor who’s armor had been damaged (he had not fully reformed after the Crisis on Infinite Earths and as such was already pretty weak to begin with) throwing him into space where he would eventually land on the planet Ryut in Sector-666 where it would become the power source of the Black Lantern Corps - Green Lantern Vol4 #25, 42. His only weakness is Red Sun radiation as kryptonite from any universe other than Earth-Prime does not affect him. Additionally, the Krypton from Earth-Prime was engulfed by its Sun Rao as such there was never any Kryptonite produced. He is also, for some reason, immune to magic. Likely 1C (6D - 8D) {put "likely far higher" here for now until both my Pre-Crisis and Rebirth Upgrades are accepted}: was completely unfazed by an attack from Mordru who commands most of the magic in the universe during the 30th century and had absorbed all of the magic of Earth-247 - Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds #2. Mordru is directly comparable to the Time Trapper as Mordru is his greatest rival. Superboy is immune to magic and doesn’t even feel anything from an enraged Black Adam and effortlessly knocks him out with a single punch - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. He could even absorb magic and use it to revert the Shazam Family back to their normal forms. He could easily blitz Shazam (who is now taken on role and power of the Wizard Shazam himself. The Shazam Power was enough for Rebirth Black Adam to fight Dark Pariah and later Deathstroke with Dark Pariah's powers) and Black Adam - Shazam Vol3 #14. He could out speed, while punching, Wally, Bart, and Jay Garrick at the same time - Teen Titans Vol3 #32. He is even unaffected by the Angel Zauriel’s magic sword which can cut through all bonds and even “non-material” entities - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #7, JLA Vol1 #1,000,000. He should be far stronger than Rebirth Superman - Superman Vol6. This is shown by the fact that just getting near Superboy-Prime overloaded Parasite, and actually touching him would kill him - Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin #1. Possibly 1A: The Flashes exhausted the entire Speed Force to imprison Superboy Prime in it - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #4. Later he escaped from the Speed Force and the Flash states that they (the Flash Family) could not hold him there - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #5. It is revealed that the Flashes kept Superboy Prime under Red Sunlight yet he still found a way to escape - Infinite Crisis Vol1 #6. Bart Allen had to absorb the entire Speed Force to catch up with him - The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol1 #6. Up to High-1A with Rage Power: During moments of extreme anger or emotional impact Superboy Prime gains access to an entirely greater level of power where he is capable of manipulating reality itself with pure strength alone and able to operate far beyond his normal capabilities. He is considered by Thomas Wayne of the Flashpoint Universe to be capable of manipulating reality alongside beings like the Anti-Monitor, Darkseid, and Barry Allen (though it was really Dr Manhattan that caused the effects of the Flashpoint that eliminated 10 years of history from Post-Crisis and not Barry) - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #2. Superboy Prime demonstrates his reality warping power in the Infinite Crisis with the (in)famous retcon punch which affected Hypertime - Infinite Crisis Secret Files and Origins #1, Batman Vol1 Annual #25, The New History of the DC Universe Vol1 #3. When he escaped the Phantom Zone by shattering it - Teen Titans Vol3 #32. When he is shown manipulating time and Hypertime with his punches in order to travel through them - Superman Vol6 #29,30. When he has a mental break down briefly reverting to villainy and kills a villain and but undoes this with a punch - Superman Vol6 #36. When he punches through Multiversal Barriers to reach the Marvel Multiverse to go on adventures with Spider-Man. While there he shows that he can choose which Marvel Comic issue he wants to travel to and can do this by pure punching strength alone - DC/Marvel: Superman/Spider-Man #1. When he destroys the Crisis worlds during Death Metal. The Crisis Worlds contained a world where he, Superboy prime, won Infinite Crisis, Darkseid won The Final Crisis, and the Anti Monitor won The Crisis on Infinite Earths - Dark Nights: Death Metal Vol1 #4. He destroys the Darkest Knight’s Multiverse (the last 52). Superboy Prime fought the Crisis Energy enhanced Darkest Knight, where he was able to exert significant pressure and gain the upper hand in close-quarters combat putting The Darkest Knight in a subservient position where he had to resort to bargaining. Superboy Prime was going to kill The Darkest Knight and take his powers until distracted by Krypto and convinced to take an alternate path. However, it is uncertain whether The Darkest Knight was fighting at full lethal intent or maximum capacity during this battle. The Darkest Knight stated that neither of them can kill the other so both of them should at the very least be considered equals with the possibility that Superboy Prime is in fact more powerful - Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin #1. He is also is a liar so his statement "You can’t destroy me any more than I can destroy you" might not be true. The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight has a history of hyperbolic and incorrect statements in relation to his power levels and of course out of self preservation it would be in his best interest to say that Superboy Prime cannot kill him, though he could have had alternate unexplored motivations here. Regardless, the Darkest Knight did not want to lose anymore of his High-1A Crisis Energy in a battle with Superboy Prime, as such Superboy Prime at the very least warrants the usage of High-1A levels of power to kill him while in this state of anger. Superboy Prime, his metafictional reality manipulating strength and his fourth wall breaking powers are likely all connected. One likely causes the other, though it is impossible to say which causes which. Remember in the words of Superboy Prime himself: “I’m a power scaler’s dream.” - Superman Vol6 #32. He is also fully aware of how powerful he is and what people say about him online as shown in several of his appearances. He has even defended his character on internet forums.

FULL CAPACITY (Superman Prime) - High-1A: Superman Prime is incomprehensibly superior to his normal self. He is physically aged up by his power-up and as such is made visibly much larger and much more muscular. He tears a hole in the very fabric of Fifth Dimension and forcefully rips Mr Mxyzptlk out so quickly that Miss Gsptlsnz, his wife who was walking next to him, doesn’t even see it happen and only notices that he has disappeared due to the hole torn in the Fifth Dimension into the Bleed - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #31. He tortures Mxyzptlk and when he won’t give him what he wanted (bringing back Earth-Prime) he was going to kill him. Mr Mxyzptlk flees into the Bleed back to the Fifth Dimension in terror from Superman Prime - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #23. Upon returning home, full of panic and fear, he states he never wants to return to the third dimension again and tells his wife they need to seal off the Fifth Dimension forever: “Seal!! Seal the Dimension off! The F-Fifth Dimension! Seal it off! He’s there! He is … the End! I can never go back there!”. Mr Mxyzptlk has never shown such terrror throughout all of his appearances in DC comics, even during the Emperor Joker Storyline when he accidentally gave up 99% of his powers. Mr Mxyzptlk was genuinely scared out of his mind by Superman Prime - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #22. Superman Prime is shown to be able to freely fly through the multiverse during his rampage throughout reality and can even fly and rip through the fabric the Fifth Dimension itself - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #31. He states that he will rip apart the entire multiverse to find his home - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #24. He is even referred to as "the beast" by the monitors and Nix Uotan, the Monitor of Earth-51, loses hope when he realizes that Superman Prime is in his universe and will fight Monarch which will of course result in it being destroyed. There is nothing the Monitors can do to prevent this - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #13. High-1A with Rage Power: far greater than in his base form as Superboy Prime. While completely berserk and more enraged and insane than he has ever been (Superman Prime is already the most insane, angry, and bloodthirsty version of the character to begin with), due to Monitor Solomon telling him that Monarch is destroying his perfect home [(Earth-Prime) (Superboy Prime’s entire rationale as a villain is that he misses his home universe and wants it back thereby removing the immoral Post Crisis Universes and characters, returning to the purity of good versus evil as depicted in Pre-Crisis Continuity)], he fights Monarch but expends all of his built up energy in the process. Ultimately Superman Prime was unable to actually damage Monarch and instead ends the fight by ripping open Monarch's radiation containment suit destroying the universe in the process - Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #13. The explosion instantly sends Prime into the Timestream where he is found by the Time Trapper as shown in Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds. His exposure to the Timestream is how he becomes the Time Trapper in the first place.

This is very good, but Prime didn't destroy the Last 52 Multiverse as most of its realities were still there in Death Metal #7. Also, what do you think about my suggestion about the note ?

 

[Frankky123]

This is very good, but Prime didn't destroy the Last 52 Multiverse as most of its realities were still there in Death Metal #7. Also, what do you think about my suggestion about the note ?

As far as i remember, TDK once said he realigned realities in #6

 

[PromptedElephant641]

This is very good, but Prime didn't destroy the Last 52 Multiverse as most of its realities were still there in Death Metal #7. Also, what do you think about my suggestion about the note ?

Ah my mistake there I will fix that. Your note is good. There should also be a note regarding characters not being allowed to scale to him for example:

"Due to his nature as a living metafictional plot device, it is not possible to determine where characters that have fought Superboy Prime scale in relation to him. His power fluctuates enormously based on his emotional and mental state. This can make him exceptionally powerful or put him in situations where is mental health issues result in him doubting himself. He has even been shown to be afraid of characters that are definitively weaker than him and has even defeated in the past. For example, he is scared of Connor Kent and any member of the Flash Family. He can be extremely emotionally unstable and is likely lacking in development due to his entire world and multiverse being erased and not having a regular teenage development and upbringing. He has read the stories of the DC universe in comic books so his view of the world in which he inhabits had become further distorted. All of this has manifest in him as extreme psychopathy and emotional instability as he does not see the individuals around him as real, it is okay for him to kill them. The Pre-Crisis multiverse that he came from was literally written in a more black and white manner so he feels justified in his actions. Additionally, he is very impulsive likely as a result of his immaturity and poor control of his emotions. Due to his circumstances it is unclear if he has even finished High-School so he is likely socially and intellectually stunted. Despite this he has managed to create his own Anti-Monitor armor to increase his already exceptional solar radiation absorption. In his more recent depictions after his "redemption arc" he has started to mellow out and is trying to make an effort to be the Superman that he read about in comics all the way back in the Silver Age"

 

[Elizio33]

As far as i remember, TDK once said he realigned realities in #6

He stated that he had realigned the Earth, previously destabilized by the combined might of heroes and villains, so that he could draw energy from it again to complete his Last 52 realities.

 

[Frankky123]

He stated that he had realigned the Earth, previously destabilized by the combined might of heroes and villains, so that he could draw energy from it again to complete his Last 52 realities.

Oh ok

 

[Elizio33]

Ah my mistake there I will fix that. Your note is good. There should also be a note regarding characters not being allowed to scale to him for example:

"Due to his nature as a living metafictional plot device, it is not possible to determine where characters that have fought Superboy Prime scale in relation to him. His power fluctuates enormously based on his emotional and mental state. This can make him exceptionally powerful or put him in situations where is mental health issues result in him doubting himself. He has even been shown to be afraid of characters that are definitively weaker than him and has even defeated in the past. For example, he is scared of Connor Kent and any member of the Flash Family. He can be extremely emotionally unstable and is likely lacking in development due to his entire world and multiverse being erased and not having a regular teenage development and upbringing. He has read the stories of the DC universe in comic books so his view of the world in which he inhabits had become further distorted. All of this has manifest in him as extreme psychopathy and emotional instability as he does not see the individuals around him as real, it is okay for him to kill them. The Pre-Crisis multiverse that he came from was literally written in a more black and white manner so he feels justified in his actions. Additionally, he is very impulsive likely as a result of his immaturity and poor control of his emotions. Due to his circumstances it is unclear if he has even finished High-School so he is likely socially and intellectually stunted. Despite this he has managed to create his own Anti-Monitor armor to increase his already exceptional solar radiation absorption. In his more recent depictions after his "redemption arc" he has started to mellow out and is trying to make an effort to be the Superman that he read about in comics all the way back in the Silver Age"

Very good !

 

[PromptedElephant641]

This is very good, but Prime didn't destroy the Last 52 Multiverse as most of its realities were still there in Death Metal #7.

He stated that he had realigned the Earth, previously destabilized by the combined might of heroes and villains, so that he could draw energy from it again to complete his Last 52 realities.

It seems that it is a plot error where the authors forgot what they had written in previous issues. It definitely wouldn't be the first time that such a thing has happened and it certainly won't be the last.

 

[Frankky123]

So, whose proposal Will we use for the CRT, mine or elephant. I think elephant's proposal need his cosmology upgrade proposal first.

 

[Frankky123]

It seems that it is a plot error where the authors forgot what they had written in previous issues. It definitely wouldn't be the first time that such a thing has happened and it certainly won't be the last.

Maybe darkest knight restored it, since he can do it while fighting perpetua.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

So, whose proposal Will we use for the CRT, mine or elephant. I think elephant's proposal need his cosmology upgrade proposal first.

Mine is fine as is and more accurately reflects the character (no offense). The statistics that are currently established such as 2A heralds will be used in the mean time until I get around to making a CRT.

 

[Elizio33]

It seems that it is a plot error where the authors forgot what they had written in previous issues. It definitely wouldn't be the first time that such a thing has happened and it certainly won't be the last.

The Anti-Crisis powered Wonder Woman threw one of the Last 52 planets/realities on the Darkest Knight face during their fight, and there were many more surrounding them. This could be a continuity error, or it could indicate that Superboy-Prime destroyed some of the Last 52 realities, but others were still around. The Last 52 have apparently been permanently erased after the Hands made their final judgment on reality.

 

[Frankky123]

Mine is fine as is and more accurately reflects the character (no offense). The statistics that are currently established such as 2A heralds will be used in the mean time until I get around to making a CRT.

So you will make prime crt with your cosmology upgrade proposal?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Perpetua and The Darkest Knight (TDK): The Darkest Knight remains High-1A however the reasoning is entirely changed and his scaling with Perpetua is also changed. It is evident that TDK lacks knowledge of the Greater Omniverse and its hierarchies. There are an infinite number of Hands, one for each creation in the Greater Omniverse. TDK could barely defeat the in Creation version of Perpetua. There is no way he could ever defeat the actual full power in Creation Perpetua that was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor let alone her true form which completely transcends the Divine Continuum. The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight is clearly delusional in his aspirations which is not surprising as he is totally insane. It would be entirely impossible for him to defeat just One of the true form Hands let alone an infinite number of them. Additionally, there are beings of the Greater Omniverse far superior to the Hands such as the Judges and their enforcers the Cosmic Raptors that he would have to face in his mission that he seems completely unaware of. In the original version of creation (before it was reset by the Cosmic Raptor and turned into what is now called the Pre-Crisis Multiverse) Perpetua spent more than 5 BILLION years preparing to take on her fellow Hands. To do this she created the Apex Predators an infinite army of incredibly powerful monsters who after only a few hundred thousand years, were on a level that, as a group, they could scare away the Monitor and later when confronting all three of the Monitor Brothers they were even stronger than before and would have continued to grow in power if not defeated by the Cosmic Raptor. This is detailed throughout Justice League Vol4 #22. Even with all of this preparation and with practically no opposition from beings in creation like superheroes (who of course did not exist at this time) or any cosmic entities until the very end of her power building endeavor, when her sons finally rebelled, she and all of her forces were still effortlessly defeated by the Cosmic Raptor. This shows that her entire premise of rebellion was completely delusional and was never going to work. It is confirmed again that Perpetua spent BILLIONS of years building up her power and building her army of Apex Predators yet as stated she was effortlessly defeated by the Cosmic Raptor - DC Greatest Events: Stories That Shook The Multiverse. The version of Perpetua that TDK faced was most definitely nowhere near as potent as the one that was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor due to the severe disparity in preparation time and power build up (at most a year or two versus billions of years and an infinite army of Apex Predators besides). Additionally, TDK did not face Perpetua in her original state as a True Hand, the form she existed in before she underwent the task of making a Creation. When she eventually undertook the act of creation, she created and descending into the Sixth Dimension where she made her sons the three Monitor Brothers and then crafted DC. The statement by the Hands that TDK was a massive threat to them and that Wonder Woman saved them is entirely incongruous with what was consistently shown throughout the year of the villain and death metal storylines. All of this demonstrates that TDK and Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman should only scale to the full power of the within the multiverse key of Perpetua (as she was depicted at the end of the Year of the Villain and in Death Metal) and NOT her True State as a Hand. Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman who is essentially equal, though slightly inferior, to TDK can feel the Hands approach getting ready to unmake her. Furthermore after defeating TDK, when a Hand appears to Wonder Woman, she views it as a transcendent being and it has to take on a form perceptible to her. It is important to note as well that the Perpetua TDK defeated was still rebuilding her supply of Crisis Energy after she expended it in her battle (battle described in Dark Nights: Death Metal Vol1 #1,5.) against the empowered Justice league when they used all of the Connective Energy / Anti-Crisis Energy collected by Dr Manhattan given to them by the Quintessence against her. TDK had then redirected all the Crisis Energy from the Dark Multiverse Crisis Worlds away from Perpetua to himself and had stolen the power Dr Manhattan had imbued into the Mobius Chair from Wally West and he still was essentially evenly matched when he fought her. Finally, to show more Perpetua superiority over the Darkest Knight, at her absolute full capacity within creation she created ALL of existence with her thoughts which includes the Death Son which KILLED The Darkest Knight and seemingly Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman as well at the ending of Death Metal. (Wonder Woman would of course be resurrected by the Hands). This irrefutably shows that Crisis Energy Amped The Darkest Knight is well below the Perpetua that was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor. ADDITIONAL NOTE: Perpetua is sometimes said to be vulnerable to the Dark Multiverse or that she was not involved in its creation (as shown in Year of the Villain: Hell Arisen Vol 1 #1) even though she absolutely made it and designed it to be the way that it is so this makes no sense at all. She even describes her creation as “in a classic tripartite form” in the origin story of creation - Justice League Vol4 #22. With even more proof: Mar Novu is the master of the Positive Multiverse, Mobius is the master of the Anti-Matter Multiverse, and The World Forger is the master of the Dark Multiverse. This is stated again at the very beginning of The New History Of The DC Universe Vol1 #1. Furthermore as with the false statements made by TDK to Superboy Prime, when he says that Superboy Prime can’t kill him (which is ambiguous), he tells Wonder Woman that she can’t create worlds with Anti-Crisis Energy when that is LITERALLY what ALL Hands, including Perpetua, have done to make Creations in the Greater Omniverse. So either The Darkest Knight is being a liar, is ignorantly of how reality works, or both at once. ALL of the Hands have access to the Seven Harmonious Forces (Anti-Crisis Energy) as well as the Seven Forces of Doom (Crisis Energy); however, almost all Hands utilize the forces of Positivity and Justice over those of Doom and Villainy. TDK likely makes these statements in order to try to save himself from death and destruction. In Superboy Prime’s case to prevent Prime from beating him to death and taking his power for himself and in Wonder Woman’s case so she doesn’t push him into the Death Son which did in fact KILL him. It is clear that these are statements made out of the interest of self preservation and desperation and are not at all based in truth. Furthermore it is also likely that TDK is simply ignorant of the nature of the Greater Omniverse: while he is a big shot within the Divine Continuum, within the Greater Omniverse he is a small fish in an infinitely large ocean. The statement made by the Hands that Wonder Woman saved them from TDK is clearly a stupidly MASSIVE inconsistency and can be reduced to being sloppy writing as it is simply ridiculous and blatantly incorrect. It should be clear by now that TDK makes many incorrect statements and is not nearly as knowledgeable of the true nature of reality as he thinks he is. ADDITIONAL NOTE: In the DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse: the Hands are described as Sixth Dimensional beings. This statement can be ignored as inaccurate even though it is stated multiple times in the book. It is of course logical to disregard the statement that the Hands are Sixth Dimensional beings as the Sixth Dimension was literally just a realm created by Perpetua as the control center of DC and is not a realm of the Greater Omniverse by any means - Justice League Vol4 #19. This was just a mistake by the editorial, there are a few other statements in the book that are also incorrect but that is a discussion for later. In her True state, as a Hand, she is Qualitatively Transcendent to the entirety of the Divine Continuum as implied by Golden Wonder Woman when a Hand had to enter creation and take on a form such that it could even be perceived by her. Additionally, also in the DC Book, Perpetua is called the Master of Positive, Antimatter, and Dark multiverses reinforcing one of my prior points about inaccurate information about Perpetua being weak to the Dark Multiverse. This is also more confirmation that the three kinds of multiverses are roughly equal in scale. It would seem that much of the nonsense regarding The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight comes from the writers not paying attention to what they have written or ignoring aspects of the DC universe to make TBWL / TDK seem more impressive than he actually is, when logic, feats, and statements show otherwise.

REVISIONS: What needs to be changed here is what key of Perpetua The Darkest Knight Scales to. Perpetua needs a few changes as well as an additional key. Perpetua will have four keys: Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A | Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A | Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A | True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A. The Darkest Knight will of course scale to the second key: the Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal). The third key is for Perpetua at the PINNACLE of her in creation capability: when she created all of existence, including the Death Son that killed TDK, with her thoughts and when she plotted and accumulated power for more than five Billion years. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor and sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators and separated from her power. Then her creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again. NOBODY scales to her third key.

If anything is to come of this, it should be changing Perpetua's profile to have 4 keys as I suggested. The Darkest Knight would scale to that second key. As stated, her original in creation state, before being imprisoned by the Cosmic Raptor, is clearly immeasurably greater than both her Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal self and the Darkest Knight. We don't even need any confirmation from Scott Snyder about this as it is clearly shown in the comics: She had billions of years of preparation time and power build up as well as an infinite army of Apex Predators and of course she was responsible for creating all of existence including structures like the Death Son which killed The Darkest Knight when Wonder Woman pushed him into it. There should not be any scaling between The Darkest Knight and the actual Hands and any references to them on TDK's page should be removed. There should also be some stuff added to the notes section of his page explaining the following: 1.) He had no chance against the Hands. 2.) He is wrong about how Anti-Crisis Energy works 3.) He cannot be taken at face value as he is always trying to manipulate, plot, scheme, and trick. 4.) I agree that TBWL is not stupid and he is easily one of the smartest non enhanced human characters in DC (Alexander Luthor Jr is still far smarter); however, it is unclear whether The Darkest Knight truly lacks understanding of how the Greater Omniverse works, or is deliberately lying to try to trick Wonder Woman into helping him. Either way it would not have been of any help, as whether alone or together with Wonder Woman, TDK was going to be receiving divine judgement from the agents of the Source and there was nothing he could do about it either way. Both options show that he has fallen into a bottomless abyss of madness and insanity as he should have long since realized by now with his cosmic awareness that he was 100% screwed. It is likely that he was raging against the inevitable seeing as he has no way out of the situation that he has placed himself in. This seems to be the most likely interpretation as TBWL / TDK prided himself on how far ahead he was of everyone else such as how he tricked Wally with the rigged Doctor Manhattan infused Mobius chair and redirecting the Crisis Energy from Perpetua to himself. He is the embodiment of "well actually I planned for that to happen", to see himself placed in a situation where it is 100% impossible for him to be successful must have been absolutely infuriating for him. 5.) The fact that TBWL could trick Perpetua, hide his true intentions, and plot against her when she could have effortlessly scanned his mind and revealed his deception is a major textbook example of PIS. Additionally, she can see throughout creation at all times, so she literally would have seen TBWL plotting as well as taking the body of the Doctor Manhattan Batman in order to enhance himself.

Before we update Superboy Prime's profile to reflect what we have discussed, we need to first update and fix Perpetua and The Darkest Knight's profile as that is a more straight forward task since the former needs to be entirely overhauled from the ground up. Luckily the hard part is done for us as there is that off wiki page a guy made that we can use to update the powers and abilities section when we get around to updating Superboy Prime: https://all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy-Prime

Back to Perpetua and The Darkest Knight:

What needs to be changed here is what key of Perpetua The Darkest Knight Scales to. Perpetua needs a few changes as well as an additional key. Perpetua will have four keys: Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A | Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A | Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A | True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A. The Darkest Knight will of course scale to the second key: the Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal). The third key is for Perpetua at the PINNACLE of her in creation capability: when she created all of existence, including the Death Son that killed TDK, with her thoughts and when she plotted and accumulated power for more than Five Billion years. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again. NOBODY scales to her third key. Additionally, the notes section of The Darkest Knight needs to be updated to address some misconceptions.

 

[Elizio33]

Before we update Superboy Prime's profile to reflect what we have discussed, we need to first update and fix Perpetua and The Darkest Knight's profile as that is a more straight forward task since the former needs to be entirely overhauled from the ground up. Luckily the hard part is done for us as there is that off wiki page a guy made that we can use to update the powers and abilities section when we get around to updating Superboy Prime: https://all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy-Prime

Back to Perpetua and The Darkest Knight:

What needs to be changed here is what key of Perpetua The Darkest Knight Scales to. Perpetua needs a few changes as well as an additional key. Perpetua will have four keys: Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A | Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A | Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A | True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A. The Darkest Knight will of course scale to the second key: the Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal). The third key is for Perpetua at the PINNACLE of her in creation capability: when she created all of existence, including the Death Son that killed TDK, with her thoughts and when she plotted and accumulated power for more than Five Billion years. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again. NOBODY scales to her third key. Additionally, the notes section of The Darkest Knight needs to be updated to address some misconceptions.

On second thought, i don't think that Perpetua need four keys because her weakened diminished state scales to the Ultra-Monitor who is more powerful than what the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger ever had been. Her full powered diminished state scales to how she asserted control over the Multiverse and extended influence into the Sixth Dimension through the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality which she drew up to destroy most of the Multiverse that she would have remade in her image, with Hypertime and the Speed Force suffering severe collateral damage. And how her fight with the Darkest Knight was collapsing the Multiverse and the Bleed.

Her true state key should scale to how she is the Hand of Creation that Krona witnessed at the dawn of time when the Multiverse was formed through the energies of the Totality bestowed upon her by The Source and how she transcends the Divine Continuum as one of the Hands of the Source tasked to shape Multiverses across the Void. The Big Bang generated by her when she was shaping the Multiverse also gave birth to the Endless, although their expressed roles within the Multiverse become meaningful after the Big Bang, while their actual existence precedes it.

At the very least, a third key could serve to better distinguish Perpetua’s states of power in her diminished state.

Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Full Power) | True State (Hand of the Source)

 

[PromptedElephant641]

On second thought, i don't think that Perpetua need four keys because her weakened diminished state scales to the Ultra-Monitor who is more powerful than what the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger ever had been. Her full powered diminished state scales to how she asserted control over the Multiverse and extended influence into the Sixth Dimension through the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality which she drew up to destroy most of the Multiverse that she would have remade in her image, with Hypertime and the Speed Force suffering severe collateral damage. And how her fight with the Darkest Knight was collapsing the Multiverse and the Bleed.

Her true state key should scale to how she is the Hand of Creation that Krona witnessed at the dawn of time when the Multiverse was formed through the energies of the Totality bestowed upon her by The Source and how she transcends the Divine Continuum as one of the Hands of the Source tasked to shape Multiverses across the Void.

At the very least, a third key could serve to better distinguish Perpetua’s states of power in her diminished state.

Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A: This version of Perpetua scales to the Ultra Monitor.

Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A: This version of Perpetua has grown immensely in power since being freed and would go on to absorb Crisis Energy from the Dark Multiverse. This is the state she is in Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal. This is what The Darkest Knight scales to.

Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A: This version of Perpetua is the PINNACLE of her IN creation capability: when she descended from the Greater Omniverse and created all of existence, including the Death Son that killed TDK, with her thoughts. Then she would go on to plot and accumulate power for more than Five Billion years as well as make her Apex Predator army. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again. As stated, NOBODY scales to this key.

True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A: This is self explanatory: As a Hand she entirely transcends the creations she and her fellow Hand's have made in the Greater Omniverse and must descend into them (which is her third key). Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman could not even perceive a Hand until it took on a form.

 

[Elizio33]

Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A: This version of Perpetua scales to the Ultra Monitor.

Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A: This version of Perpetua has grown immensely in power since being freed and would go on to absorb Crisis Energy from the Dark Multiverse. This is the state she is in Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal. This is what The Darkest Knight scales to.

Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A: This version of Perpetua is the PINNACLE of her IN creation capability: when she descended from the Greater Omniverse and created all of existence, including the Death Son that killed TDK, with her thoughts. Then she would go on to plot and accumulate power for more than Five Billion years as well as make her Apex Predator army. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again. As stated, NOBODY scales to this key.

True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A: This is self explanatory: As a Hand she entirely transcends the creations she and her fellow Hand's have made in the Greater Omniverse and must descend into them (which is her third key). Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman could not even perceive a Hand until it took on a form.

This seems good, but Perpetua was in her true state when she created the Multiverse. After, she took a physical form to enter her creation, it can be assumed that she diminished her state, just as her sons do when they descend from the Sixth Dimension into the physical reality. However, she became even more restricted by this diminished state after the Cosmic Raptor imprisoned her in the Source Wall.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Maybe. It is not 100% clear as it seems that she descended into the Sixth Dimension, created her sons, and then made the rest of creation. Regardless, her state before Cosmic Raptor Imprisonment is clearly vastly superior to her state Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal and deserves to be differentiated. Creation in its entirety even contains abstractions like the Death Son which is capable of killing and erasing beings on the level of The Darkest Knight just by being pushed into it. The Death Son is the end of everything in the Divine Continuum, including all of its stories, all contained in one place.

 

[Elizio33]

Maybe. It is not 100% clear as it seems that she descended into the Sixth Dimension, created her sons, and then made the rest of creation. Regardless, her state before Cosmic Raptor Imprisonment is clearly vastly superior to her state Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal.

Yes, that's undeniable.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Will Dr.Manhattan also be straight up high 1-A ? He is currently only "likely high 1-A".

 

[Elizio33]

Maybe. It is not 100% clear as it seems that she descended into the Sixth Dimension, created her sons, and then made the rest of creation. Regardless, her state before Cosmic Raptor Imprisonment is clearly vastly superior to her state Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal and deserves to be differentiated. Creation in its entirety even contains abstractions like the Death Son which is capable of killing beings on the level of The Darkest Knight.

Well, in Justice League #22, Perpetua made her Multiverse and her sons in the Sixth Dimension and assigned them to operate within the Multiverse’s three matter-based realms. Her act of creation happened within the Sixth Dimension. After she took some physical form to enter her Multiverse and this, like her son, diminished her nature. But even on this state, she remained superior to what she was during Death Metal.

 

[Elizio33]

Will Dr.Manhattan also be straight up high 1-A ? He is currently only "likely high 1-A".

Yes. He scales from Death Metal Perpetua and is brimming with Anti-Crisis Energy which was used by the Justice League to fight against her. Additionally, Mister Mxyzptlk fears him and openly admitted his inferiority.

However, no, Doctor Manhattan should not be considered superior to the Darkest Knight or Perpetua. The latter possessed a Bruce Wayne's body with similar powers to Doctor Manhattan, but he wasn't strong enough to kill Perpetua. To do this, he had to seize her Crisis Energy, and only then was he strong enough to kill Perpetua.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Well, in Justice League #22, Perpetua made her Multiverse and her sons in the Sixth Dimension and assigned them to operate within the Multiverse’s three matter-based realms. Her act of creation happened within the Sixth Dimension. After she took some physical form to enter her Multiverse and this, like her son, diminished her nature. But even on this state, she remained superior to what she was dueling Death Metal.

Agreed. Perpetua is stronger than people realize.

 

[Elizio33]

Agreed. Perpetua is stronger than people realize.

Scott Snyder even said that Perpetua was diminished after she was imprisoned in the Source Wall.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Yes. He scales from Death Metal Perpetua and is brimming of Anti-Crisis Energy which was used by the Justice League to fight against her. Additionally, Mister Mxyzptlk fears him and openly admitted his inferiority.

He actually may scale somewhat above Crisis Energy amped TDK / Death Metal Perpetua. It is mentioned that the Quintisence gathered residual Connective Energy (Anti-Crisis Energy) energy from him which Wonder Woman and the Justice League used to fight her. It is stated that she could have won if she had not hesitated. Furthermore, TDK received a massive jump in power after stealing the energy from the Dr Manhattan imbued Mobius Chair (and then the Anti-Crisis Energy). Dr Manhattan also expended a significant amount of energy attempting to repair the damage of previous Crisis level events and their effects on time and continuity, though was ultimately unsuccessful in repairing everything. Finally: Doctor Manhattan placed the majority of his power in Clark Dreiberg so these energies that the Justice League and TDK used were relatively small in comparison. As such it is likely that Doctor Manhattan scales somewhere above Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal Perpetua and Crisis Energy amped TDK and below Perpetua’s Full in Creation capacity Pre-Raptor imprisonment.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Dr Manhattan is very different than TDK (personalities besides) exhibiting vastly superior cosmic awareness and enlightenment. I don’t think we can say that the Dr Manhattan version from the Dark Multiverse is equal. The real Doctor Manhattan is likely special in some way shape or form. (Or he has been altered in some way throughout his cosmic experiment / voyage to different realities)

 

[Elizio33]

Dr Manhattan is very different than TDK (personalities besides) exhibiting vastly superior cosmic awareness and enlightenment. I don’t think we can say that the Dr Manhattan version from the Dark Multiverse is equal. The real Doctor Manhattan is likely special in some way shape or form. (Or he has been altered in some way throughout his cosmic experiment / voyage to different realities)

When the Darkest Knight took possession of Batmanhattan's body, he experienced a vast cosmic consciousness similar to that of Doctor Manhattan. Although less powerful, Batmanhattan remained relatively close to Doctor Manhattan's level, as it was fueled by the same force through the same experiment. The Darkest Knight not only possessed Batmanhattan's power but also Wally West's Doctor Manhattan power, and Crisis Energy. Also, remember that Anti-Crisis/Connective Energy is fueled through shared memory and history and the residual Anti-Crisis energies of Doctor Manhattan could have been fueled by the Justice League's own bound when they fought Perpetua. As stated by Lex Luthor: "We are all batteries for Crisis Energy and its opposite."

 

[PromptedElephant641]

When the Darkest Knight took possession of Batmanhattan's body, he experienced a vast cosmic consciousness similar to that of Doctor Manhattan. Although less powerful, Batmanhattan remained relatively close to Doctor Manhattan's level, as it was fueled by the same force through the same experiment. The Darkest Knight not only possessed Batmanhattan's power but also Wally West's Doctor Manhattan power, and Crisis Energy. Also, remember that Anti-Crisis/Connective Energy is fueled through shared memory and history and the residual Anti-Crisis energies of Doctor Manhattan could have been fueled by the Justice League when they fought Perpetua. As stated by Lex Luthor: "We are all batteries for Crisis Energy and its opposite."

True. Though I believe that the main Dr Manhattan is still stronger than The Darkest Knight as shown in my post before my last post: Dr Manhattan had divested his power in four ways: First the majority to Clark Dreiberg, the second most to attempting to fix reality, thirdly the residual energy of the former entry was enough that Wonder Woman could contend with and possibly have defeated Perpetua if she had not hesitated, and lastly the power imbued in the Mobius Chair that TDK would steel from Wally West.

The third entry on its own I believe is enough to show this superiority as Perpetua at this point was still receiving a continuous supply of Crisis Energy before it was siphoned by TDK later on. Even when Perpetua faces the Crisis Energy amped TDK, they are still nearly equal after her supply has been cut off and if TDK had not siphoned her Crisis Energy supply, she would have won. She even remarks on how both of the will run out of energy during their fight.

Dr Manhattan’s durability also needs to be corrected to match his power output due to being a being of Collective Energy (Anti-Crisis Energy) as currently it states that his physical form is weak due to Guy Gardner seemingly killing him; however, this is not what really happened. Dr Manhattan at this point is extremely out of touch, having not interacted with people very much after leaving the Watchmen Universe, and has not engaged in any physical combat during his time in DC (even back in Watchmen, such a thing was rare for him to do opting instead for other forms of attack if he had to do so). Such notions are practically alien to him, though once he is hit by Guy Gardner he immediately understands physical combat again and gets back up and is unharmed.

 

[Frankky123]

Before we update Superboy Prime's profile to reflect what we have discussed, we need to first update and fix Perpetua and The Darkest Knight's profile as that is a more straight forward task since the former needs to be entirely overhauled from the ground up. Luckily the hard part is done for us as there is that off wiki page a guy made that we can use to update the powers and abilities section when we get around to updating Superboy Prime: https://all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy-Prime

Back to Perpetua and The Darkest Knight:

What needs to be changed here is what key of Perpetua The Darkest Knight Scales to. Perpetua needs a few changes as well as an additional key. Perpetua will have four keys: Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A | Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A | Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A | True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A. The Darkest Knight will of course scale to the second key: the Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal). The third key is for Perpetua at the PINNACLE of her in creation capability: when she created all of existence, including the Death Son that killed TDK, with her thoughts and when she plotted and accumulated power for more than Five Billion years. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again. NOBODY scales to her third key. Additionally, the notes section of The Darkest Knight needs to be updated to address some misconceptions.

Okay, im waiting for it!
Btw i have a proposal to add a great ability for Superboy Prime & TDK, i will post it after this topic finished.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Superboy Prime's immeasurable speed does not come from the Time Trapper, it comes from being a Pre-Crisis Kryptonain. Pre-Crisis Kryptonians can casually travel time travel through pure speed.

Speaking of, can't we scale Post-Crisis and Rebirth Kryptonians off of Pre-Crisis in terms of their physical stats?
It's already approved for AP/Dura, why not LS and Speed?
That'd boost them from Stellar and MFTL+ to Multi-Stellar and Immeasurable at their peaks.
Which wouldn't be inconsistent given that Kryptonians are generally second only to the Flashes.

 

[Frankky123]

Speaking of, can't we scale Post-Crisis and Rebirth Kryptonians off of Pre-Crisis in terms of their physical stats?
It's already approved for AP/Dura, why not LS and Speed?
That'd boost them from Stellar and MFTL+ to Multi-Stellar and Immeasurable at their peaks.
Which wouldn't be inconsistent given that Kryptonians are generally second only to the Flashes.

I’m also wondering why Post-Crisis Superman doesn’t get immeasurable speed for fighting Time Trapper outside the timestream.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I’m also wondering why Post-Crisis Superman doesn’t get immeasurable speed for fighting Time Trapper outside the timestream.

Probably because so much effort was put onto AP/Dura for the DC "Heralds" that their other stats haven't gotten attention recently.
But the wiki already accepts the Post-Crisis relative to Pre-Crisis scaling

 

[KirbyFan03]

Probably because so much effort was put onto AP/Dura for the DC "Heralds" that their other stats haven't gotten attention recently.
But the wiki already accepts the Post-Crisis relative to Pre-Crisis scaling

Coz everyone cares for Marvel like the favorite child

Meanwhile DC is under the water

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Coz everyone cares for Marvel like the favorite child

Meanwhile DC is under the water

DC's been eating good
From 4-B to 2-C to 2-A is solid

Plus God Tiers went from 1-C to High 1-A

 

[KirbyFan03]

DC's been eating good
From 4-B to 2-C to 2-A is solid

Plus God Tiers went from 1-C to High 1-A

I mean fair enough

But we aint getting THAT much love compared to Marvels CRTs

 

[Hecky2222]

I mean fair enough

But we aint getting THAT much love compared to Marvels CRTs

ig thats better than causing "1-A" standards humilation that will be debunked later

 

[KirbyFan03]

ig thats better than causing "1-A" standards humilation that will be debunked later

Wait what?

 

[Hecky2222]

Wait what?

I dont need to explain how Marvel 1-A heralds break current 1-A FAQ(then will be debunked)

So i would not get this "love" i meant

 

[KirbyFan03]

I dont need to explain how Marvel 1-A heralds break current 1-A FAQ(then will be debunked)

So i would not get this "love" i meant

Ah

Well at least they can WANK