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Las Noches Size Downgrade
- Thread starter Ghostimuscrime
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- bleach
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It wasn't asking for the unproductive comments to be deleted that was the issue. It was complaining about Bleach fans crashing out.
Regardless, I think we should move on from that and focus on the thread.
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Sorry Damage, but their behavior should be called out. Crashing out is the issue not calling it out, or as you said, “complaining” about it. They need to chill, stop the ironic comments and take this seriously.
Hellscream
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"We don't need bleach fans crashing out just because their wank is getting exposed"
The entirety of this part is ragebait, it's not "calling out" you generalized the entirety of the bleach community and associated them with crashing out and wanking, the same members made dozens of threads about this, and got them accepted, with staff votes, calculations, you could not be more disingenuous.
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should have made it a staff thread
Ghostimuscrime
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- Thread starter
- #46
IMade just argues that Ulq is on a different pillar but that's not really a good argument because as shown here the pillars can only exist in the center area of the dome which would include said fatter ones to be in that concentration too
and in this image we can see they fluctuate in height but they remain more or less 1:1 in terms of width, solidified further by showing Ulq on those tall skinny pillars with the same width ratios which reinforces the same idea my 5.34 km diameter calc uses so the denial wasn't really doing anything
but funnily enough that thread helped uncover another contradictory visual on top of the previous ones lol
this is why we should use theoretical values with caution and scrutiny because they usually always get proven wrong by the actual values, cuz this worm should not be visible with the supposed size in relation to Las Noches if it was that big even Imade in that thread admits this & can't answer for
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“We don’t need bleach fans crashing out” is literally referring to the people who ARE crashing out in this thread, like you, not the entire bleach community, if you read it as a generalization that’s a you problem. The fact that some members made legitimate threads with staff votes doesn’t contradict anything I said, nobody is dismissing those, the issue is specifically the behavior happening here. Calling that ragebait is just deflection from the actual point.
Anyway I think this back and forth is derailing the thread at this point, so I’m gonna leave it here.
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #48
Yes please let's not clutter up the thread, we're all grown adults that value our time here, I don't wanna convert this to Staff Only as I wish to give the supporters a broader chance to defend their case but I might have to request for individual thread bans to maintain productivity
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It'll be difficult to comment consistently, or at all really, given some personal circumstances, and an increasingly lack of desire to be active. But if I can fit it into my schedule--when I have the free time--I'll try and review the blog to see if I agree or disagree with it. Again, I can't promise my participation; I can only confirm a potential.
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If there's a big inconsistency that's already a good reason to discard feats based on this place's size (or at least not rely on them for important ratings) since it makes their validity uncertain, but honestly the travel time statement is pretty flimsy reasoning to begin with. If you're arguing they're superhumans who can fly or run super-fast then the distance would actually be dozens of times greater, if you don't accept that logic then you should use actual IRL travel time which depending on how the ground is laid out could be much lower than what's gotten used. Either way the current math doesn't hold to scrutiny, and when visuals contradict it I see no reason not to prioritize them.
All in all I agree with the downgrade.
All in all I agree with the downgrade.
Eden_Warlock99
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why is there a random AI image in the blog lol
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #53
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I have no real thoughts on anything related to calcs themselves, but one of the images (the first one in General Issues) doesn't seem to exist and if there is an AI generated image, I think it should be removed, regardless of intent (this is more of a personal opinion though).
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I will agree exclusively because i want to eventually see this affect the ratings so the gap between the god tiers and everyone else gets even more comically large specifically because it 9-A Askin makes his entire encounter with Ichigo Hilarious.
If the current possibly 4-A chars also remain fine it will also be funny to think about gift ball deluxe turning a 4-A into someone that is now clashing with a 9-A depending on how that fight is adapted.
If the current possibly 4-A chars also remain fine it will also be funny to think about gift ball deluxe turning a 4-A into someone that is now clashing with a 9-A depending on how that fight is adapted.
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Then downgrade those tiers for being a massive outlier ig
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #57
Askin’s own PR Team praying on his downfall is diabolical & hilarious
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This can be deleted if it's considered derailing in some way,but i don't think it would be a downfall if Askin got downgraded all the way to 10-C or something in a somewhat nice forum and wiki of the already somewhat niche topic of powerscaling.
He'll still be the Askin that is my favourite Bleach character no matter the numbers on the page,at the end of day ya know?
Verses go through upgrades and downgrades,and while stability without stagnation is preferred you just gotta expect it to happen one day.
Not every downgrade is the end of the world.
Back to the actual topic of the thread,i'll at least like to give Deceived a few days to actually respond if votes or arguements haven't changed in that time,but that's just my personal preference and it's nobody obligation to stall a thread for one person's possible arguement.
Saqphire
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As per request from Ghost, I made a blog detailing how the downscaling for each feat involved would apply once the old size gets discarded for Ghost's new one. This doesn't apply to the speed one because the formula made the speed of the Lanza go at 5 metres per second.
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #61
******* baseddd, i respect that
thank you scar, there are some issues here and there but we'll have it corrected in discord, I'll put this on hold till we reach grace period for the size change
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Saqphire
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Yeah ofc
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The statement is about walking speed not flight or running speeds. No one their questioned nel on the distance of los noches because she is indeed correct. If it was the actual size of the visuals they would have called her out on that. Kubo does this with the serieite aswell. Visually it's 5 to 10km. However statements for multiple characters put the size at around 1000km. Theirs also an instant of ichigo calling rock that appears to be the size of a hill away mountain. We just cant dismiss statements just because the author is too lazy to show things visually correct.
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- #64
we dont have multiple people dropping statements for Las Noches
we have just 1 statement from a child who isn't word of god that's fighting against several visual contradictions who are all strongly consistent with each other
we have just 1 statement from a child who isn't word of god that's fighting against several visual contradictions who are all strongly consistent with each other
Saqphire
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Adding on to what you said, it's not even that she's wrong that it would take three days to walk the distance. The problem is assuming she's talking about Ichigo specifically AND that he'd be walking that distance 24/7. There are sooo many factors that play along as to how someone who can walk for a long time doesn't need to walk the equal distance here such as pace reduction, breaks involved, terrain involved and so on and so forth.
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Not just word of God people who live in these places take days to walk it
Ghostimuscrime
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- Thread starter
- #67
not to mention it's not a flat plane either, more of the time gets consumed when going up and down the sand dunes in contrast, this is why timeframe statements suck and you need to assume so many factors, statements woulda had better weight if it was a size statement like the one Kubo wrote for the pillars
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Ichigo stated he can run for a week on a device made to drain reiatsu. He wouldn't need to take breaks for simply walking. The terrain is a none factor they were already at the building which is on a flat area of sand they would just to walk straight down for 3 days
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I disagree with this reasoning. I view it like video game graphics. Just because a character is shown as being 1/10th the size of a city, doesn't mean that destruction of half of that city should be put at only High 8-C. Especially if there are statements indicating that the city is actually large.
I don't think doing so is "using visuals to upgrade, and dismissing them when used to downgrade". Unless there are other cases here I'm missing. It's using statements to get some important raw values in a calculation, then using visuals to derive the rest, rather than starting from visuals alone.
Is it really true that all of Candice/Askin/Gremmy's feats above Building level are based on pure visuals, with no statements ever indicating that they could/have destroyed anything larger than a building? I'm not familiar with Bleach, but this certainly wouldn't be my default assumption.
Yeah it seems pretty absurd to believe that the columns would have a diameter of 1,668m, which is what we'd get from the 235km diameter.
These sorts of niche physics considerations are, imo, the lowest tier of evidence for something like this. So I disagree with that reasoning.
tl;dr
I disagree with most reasoning, but the "columns are >30m" statement convinces me to agree with a size downgrade.
Ghostimuscrime
He/Him- 3,678
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- Thread starter
- #70
If the same visuals show a rock to be the size of a city where as a timeframe statement makes it appear similar to a continent and we see visually a city sized rock being split it would be pretty weird to just pretend it's a continental feat because of an outlier statement & we'd be ignoring for the sake of big numbers, so I personally don't think ignoring the practical values to favour theoretical ones is justified
They don't have feats above building level, the sternritters mostly are featless people that are given stats based on argued chainscaling, among the three in particular only gremmy has power that is visually and literally above building level but that's through an ability that does not scale to his physicals, Askin has 0 DC feats, Candice mayy have surpassed building level (visually speaking) with her strongest charged attacks iirc, statements definitely do not indicate they could destroy anything building sized or greater with Gremmy being the exception due to his hax
I definitely understand where you're coming from as they get a bit technical and deep rather than be one of the in-your-face contradictions but hypoxia and atmospheric pressure are genuine issues bleach characters have and are emphasized by the writer to be very explicit wincons in beating these people so I think we should take such weaknesses into consideration, not to mention the whole calculating a theoretical distance and then saying it technically is supposed to be this big is equally niche compared to the visuals so I'd say if those are fair game this one should be too
Fully Agreed on this tho
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The column statement is only for the one inside los noches. These columns come in different sizes all around los noches. Tho he kinda contradicts himself using that statement while dismissing other statements
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Can you provide some more information establishing this?
Ghostimuscrime
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- #73
The columns fluctuate in height but mostly remain identical in width, and many of them connect directly from inside las noches and extend to the outside, like a straw in a juicebox
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First and third image from #74?
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Ah yeah, those ones in the background here definitely have different diameters that can't be due to perspective.
Any way of addressing that, @Ghostimuscrime?
Any way of addressing that, @Ghostimuscrime?
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I think the arguments around how the atmosphere is acting is really weird.
The Heuco Mundo dimension in general, breaks the laws of physics. It somehow has natural light, even though it's stated there aren't any stars. It somehow has earth-like clouds, even though it's an endless desert with no natural source of water vapor. It's got a moon that somehow gives off moonlight without a sun and never changes lunar phases. This isn't like the soul society, where it's stated to be a mirror of the real world. Hueco Mundo operates on its own weird laws of physics.
But you wanna assume that the atmosphere acts similarly to Earth's? The same atmosphere that is stated to actively buff and sustain the cast? There's already a precedent for it not acting like normal.
It seems very nitpicky to try to apply real-life physics to certain aspects of a fantastical realm like this. Especially when a lot of this is stuff that, let's be real, no Shonen Mangaka is really gonna care about.
Something else I have a issue with about the blog is this
It is not "charitably assumed" to say any of the characters could walk for three days straight, when it's already something a very early Ichigo can do with no real issue, even while having his spiritual energy actively drained.
There's also no real reason to assume Nel is an unreliable source when she's constantly telling Ichigo about Heuco Mundo, Hollows, etc, and she's never wrong.
If we do say Las Noches is as big as Nel stated, I feel it is very silly to say Kubo not accounting for accurate vapor dispersal patterns in his Shonen Manga's big explosions, instead of just what looks coolest is a real anti-feat for that.If it’s moving as a thick coherent plume up into the 80–100 km region, then it’s not behaving like normal vaporized rock should at that altitude.
At 40–80-100 km, pressure is extremely low. So vapor/gas released from a heated surface should mostly do this:
expand outward → spread → thin out fast
Not:
stay as a fluffy dense smoke cloud → rise upward like a chimney plume
These panels conflict due to the vertical flame columns implying buoyancy-driven rise which requires dense air that is not present at 40–80-100 km. So the gas should spread and thin quickly while this stays tight and structured.
The Heuco Mundo dimension in general, breaks the laws of physics. It somehow has natural light, even though it's stated there aren't any stars. It somehow has earth-like clouds, even though it's an endless desert with no natural source of water vapor. It's got a moon that somehow gives off moonlight without a sun and never changes lunar phases. This isn't like the soul society, where it's stated to be a mirror of the real world. Hueco Mundo operates on its own weird laws of physics.
But you wanna assume that the atmosphere acts similarly to Earth's? The same atmosphere that is stated to actively buff and sustain the cast? There's already a precedent for it not acting like normal.
It seems very nitpicky to try to apply real-life physics to certain aspects of a fantastical realm like this. Especially when a lot of this is stuff that, let's be real, no Shonen Mangaka is really gonna care about.
Something else I have a issue with about the blog is this
It is not "charitably assumed" to say any of the characters could walk for three days straight, when it's already something a very early Ichigo can do with no real issue, even while having his spiritual energy actively drained.
There's also no real reason to assume Nel is an unreliable source when she's constantly telling Ichigo about Heuco Mundo, Hollows, etc, and she's never wrong.
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Nel is treated as a kid throwing a tantrum in this scene. You have to assume she is completely accurate in her assessment. You have to assume no breaks, you have to assume walking speed etc. Nothing about this statement is convincing to me.
I especially don't see why it would be more important than all the evidence provided to the contrary.
The side of downgrade has such a massive proponderence of evidence. It's Twitter levels of agenda to try to cling to this one throwaway statement. Surely we're better than that.
I especially don't see why it would be more important than all the evidence provided to the contrary.
The side of downgrade has such a massive proponderence of evidence. It's Twitter levels of agenda to try to cling to this one throwaway statement. Surely we're better than that.
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