Las Noches Size Downgrade

[Ghostimuscrime]

Hello nerds, hope you all been physically and mentally healthy, today's thread proposal is to downgrade the crazily inflated size of Las Noches to a much more consistent one

I have compiled all arguments and scans in a blog for easy viewing right here

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ghostimuscrime/Las_Noches_Size_Downgrade

That sums up all my thoughts regarding this, one thing I'd add is that this proposal would also mean the following calcs would have to get revised after the size change is approved

Spoiler

• Cero is an order of magnitude lower than Cero Oscuras - 6.508 Teratons, likely 200 Teratons (Small Country level+, likely Large Country level)
• Gran Rey Cero - 16.65 Teratons, up to 2.00 Petatons (Country level, up to Continent level) Adjusted
• Ulquiorra’s Cero Oscuras - 65.08 Teratons, likely 2.00 Petatons (Country level+, likely Continent level)
• Lanza del Relampago - 258.549 Petatons (Multi-Continent level)Adjusted
• Lanza del Relampago - Mach 1467.5 (Massively Hypersonic+)Adjusted

With all that being said, let us discuss!

Agree : M3X_2.0, Armorchompy, Floxy178, Planck69, Damage3245, Nierre (thinks calcs using visuals should go), YmTheSuper, Qawsed (Same as Nierre)
Disagree : Agna, Qawsed (thinks size should stay) , Dalesean07
Neutral :

 

[Saqphire]

As someone who helped out with this off-site, I obviously agree

 

[Saqphire]

• Lanza del Relampago - 258.549 Petatons (Multi-Continent level)
• Lanza del Relampago - Mach 1467.5 (Massively Hypersonic+)

These calcs woulda probably needed to be revised anyway as the timeframe assumptions are bunk. We can find Lanza's explosion yield from the radius and then the timeframe from said yield to get the KE from those

 

[Xdsagecat]

Agree fra

 

[Hellscream]

There is no issue with the timeframe statement, they're literally pressed for time, which is directly stated in the scans itself, they do not have the leisure to walk for 3 days, no mentions of breaks, rest or stamina related issues especially for superhuman characters, non argument basically, using a steady walking speed it completely reasonable, and all of this shit has been debated about over and over.

Statements > visuals it's that simple,

you're literally pixel scaling that contradicts statements.

on screen depictions directly contradict structural statements in literally everything related to size in bleach, which is why it's used as secondary proof.

bro called gremmy building level..
They are sternritters, that scale to captains, and espada in pure physicals, genuinely what are you even saying?
Nothing of what you mentioned there is off any relevance

Visual contradictions have been addressed in 10 previous attempted downgrade threads, not the first second or third time.

and applying atmospheric physics in a realm of souls and in an anime, with a mangaka that just draws explosions, you can't expect them to know everything related to physics so using this as a counter argument is redundant. If we applied this to every single feat, literally nothing is properly usable and consistent.

And lastly, we don't even know "if" hueco mundo has an atmosphere, we don't know if it has an "atmosphere" we don't know if it even has similar, or the same gravity values, you are essentially applying the earths atmosphere to hueco mundo in an attempt to fit your agenda.

Vacuum exposure is not equal to high altitude air thinning, invalid comparison in it's totality.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Statements > visuals it's that simple

Based on what? We don't have this rule and Bleach doesn't have this rule either.

 

[Hellscream]

Based on what? We don't have this rule and Bleach doesn't have this rule either.

Based on literally all statements completely contradicting on screen visuals my guy.
Just because something is not drawn as the size of a country, does not mean that it isn't.

 

[Mbpoops]

Sure

 

[M3X_2.0]

Based on literally all statements completely contradicting on screen visuals my guy.
Just because something is not drawn as the size of a country, does not mean that it isn't.

"Just because something isn't the size of a country doesn't mean it isn't" that's what you're saying. The place doesn't have a single visual representation of being that big and everything you've been using are statements. And NO, statements are not always > visuals, if ever. If statements contradict visuals it doesn't mean statements takes priority, it NEVER worked like that, and we're not changing it now.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

There is no issue with the timeframe statement, they're literally pressed for time, which is directly stated in the scans itself, they do not have the leisure to walk for 3 days, no mentions of breaks, rest or stamina related issues especially for superhuman characters, non argument basically, using a steady walking speed it completely reasonable, and all of this shit has been debated about over and over.
Statements > visuals it's that simple,
you're literally pixel scaling that contradicts statements.

if you had a distance statement this woulda had weight but you don't you need to make assumptions for it to work and statements don't always take priority over on screen depictions, I'm pretty sure I make a big argument regarding this in the blog, I don't wish to repeat the things I said there but strongly consistent visuals will always take priority over a weak singular statement especially from a non WOG source.

Surely you wouldn't say Candice should be building level would you?

on screen depictions directly contradict structural statements in literally everything related to size in bleach, which is why it's used as secondary proof.

Uh let's slow down pal, one thing 100 chapters ago having issues don't mean every other thing must have it's visual portrayal invalidated lmao, especially when those problems don't exist with Las Noches

bro called gremmy building level..
They are sternritters, that scale to captains, and espada in pure physicals, genuinely what are you even saying?

I was referring to Candice, 5 Giga Joules is Building level

and no why should I use scaling chains with Captains when Kubo THE AUTHOR wrote 5 GJs? you don't get to pick and choose when to apply consistency, it's like all I wrote went over ya head lmao

Visual contradictions have been addressed in 10 previous attempted downgrade threads, not the first second or third time.

for the SERETEI not Las Noches, I say this in the blog, I'll say it here, Las Noches does not have the inconsistency issue, I have provided several scans reinforcing the same ballpark very strongly

and applying atmospheric physics in a realm of souls and in an anime, with a mangaka that just draws explosions, you can't expect them to know everything related to physics so using this as a counter argument is redundant. If we applied this to every single feat, literally nothing is properly usable and consistent.
And lastly, we don't even know "if" hueco mundo has an atmosphere, we don't know if it has an "atmosphere" we don't know if it even has similar, or the same gravity values, you are essentially applying the earths atmosphere to hueco mundo in an attempt to fit your agenda.
Vacuum exposure is not equal to high altitude air thinning, invalid comparison in it's totality.

Unfortunately Kubo is the one who emphasized the magnitude of atmospheric physics horribly hurting bleach characters, if he considers it significant enough to give characters win cons over others why would I not take them into consideration as well?
We assume things in bleach are 1:1 to the real life world except when it's shown to be otherwise, simply guesses won't cut it, and also you don't get to say "no we won't apply modern physics here" but at the same time apply modern physics to get those incredibly high joule values in those calcs, that's again explicit cherrypicking

 

[KingogKings777]

Just gonna comment on the Gremmy vs Zaraki thing. Didn't that stuff happen to Kenpachi since Gremmy imagined it happening to him?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also, if visuals aren't accurate or something, why are we even pixelscaling stuff? If visuals are discarded due to inconsistency then simply remove all the calcs right now.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's really cute that all of these little goons started making these threads only when Arc, who proposed these changes quit because they know they'd get folded sideways

I would make this thread even if Arc, Imade & others were active, because if an argument is wrong it is outright wrong, no amount of debating skills can make up for lack of consistency

also please don't make emotionally charged comments here, not only does it clutter up the thread it also creates a negative environment that this thread does not need

 

[Damage3245]

Also, if visuals aren't accurate or something, why are we even pixelscaling stuff? If visuals are discarded due to inconsistency then simply remove all the calcs right now.

Well said; it's really annoying to me when supporters of a verse happily proclaim that we can't depend on a series' own visuals and that statements should always be used, but then they use visuals for everything else and accept that they're totally fine to use.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Well said; it's really annoying to me when supporters of a verse happily proclaim that we can't depend on a series' own visuals and that statements should always be used, but then they use visuals for everything else and accept that they're totally fine to use.

Right? "Oh no you can't use visuals cause the author/artist isn't consistent with it" use it anyway for pixelscaling for the same feat.

 

[Saqphire]

Right? "Oh no you can't use visuals cause the author/artist isn't consistent with it" use it anyway for pixelscaling for the same feat.

Don't forget how they got away with using TYBW visuals to loophole that rule despite TYBW visuals clearly contradicting their vision as well

 

[DavidTPPM]

Snip

This is so hypocritical…

You start off with

Statements > visuals it's that simple,

This

you're literally pixel scaling that contradicts statements.

And this

Arguing that statements > visuals/pixel scaling. But then you say this literally 1 sentence later

bro called gremmy building level..
They are sternritters, that scale to captains, and espada in pure physicals, genuinely what are you even saying?
Nothing of what you mentioned there is off any relevance

Do you not see the hypocrisy?

You're arguing against pixel scaling visuals, and in favor of statements when it benefits you.
But when statements go against your narrative suddenly you mock people for using them over visuals and chainscaling?

So which is it? Do statements supersede our calculations/measurements or not?

And if we do agree LN has inconsistent size portrayal why would we use it as a point of reference when calculating feats?

and applying atmospheric physics in a realm of souls and in an anime, with a mangaka that just draws explosions, you can't expect them to know everything related to physics so using this as a counter argument is redundant. If we applied this to every single feat, literally nothing is properly usable and consistent.

And lastly, we don't even know "if" hueco mundo has an atmosphere, we don't know if it has an "atmosphere" we don't know if it even has similar, or the same gravity values, you are essentially applying the earths atmosphere to hueco mundo in an attempt to fit your agenda.

Vacuum exposure is not equal to high altitude air thinning, invalid comparison in it's totality.

We can't expect the mangaka who clearly used physics of outer space as an in-universe factor to measure other atmospheric physics, but we can use it to calculate destruction and KE feats?
Again, you're completely fine with using physics to upscale Bleach but also against using physics when it downgrades it?

To me this reads as wanting to use any method available for upgrading while restricting the same methods for downgrades.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Don't forget how they got away with using TYBW visuals to loophole that rule despite TYBW visuals clearly contradicting their vision as well

not to mention TYBW anime being far more visually consistent in depiction than any big 3 media

 

[Hellscream]

if you had a distance statement this woulda had weight but you don't you need to make assumptions for it to work and statements don't always take priority over on screen depictions, I'm pretty sure I make a big argument regarding this in the blog, I don't wish to repeat the things I said there but strongly consistent visuals will always take priority over a weak singular statement especially from a non WOG source.

You don't need an exact "distance statement", "a 3 day walk" is straightforwards right? does a "3 day walk" make logical sense to correlate to 5 km?
No "strong argument" was provided, simply utilized pixel scaling, that contradicts the statement of how long walking would take.

Surely you wouldn't say Candice should be building level would you?

Corrtect, she's way above that.

Uh let's slow down pal, one thing 100 chapters ago having issues don't mean every other thing must have it's visual portrayal invalidated lmao, especially when those problems don't exist with Las Noches

Except for that even 100 chapters later, these same inconsistencies with pixel scaling and visual depictions happen, making whatever you just said utterly useless, and they do exist, as they contradict the statement of Nell.

I was referring to Candice, 5 Giga Joules is Building level

Prove, that 5 giga joules is her maximum output, despite tanking or being relative, purely due to the fact of being a sternritter takes precedence.
It's also the other characters that she has fought, and are relative to her that have the feats
multiple other characters literally stated right after that it wouldn't defeat ichigo, and it was her base form

and no why should I use scaling chains with Captains when Kubo THE AUTHOR wrote 5 GJs? you don't get to pick and choose when to apply consistency, it's like all I wrote went over ya head lmao

Irrelevant

for the SERETEI not Las Noches, I say this in the blog, I'll say it here, Las Noches does not have the inconsistency issue, I have provided several scans reinforcing the same ballpark very strongly

Yup, neither is las noches consistent, like stated above

Unfortunately Kubo is the one who emphasized the magnitude of atmospheric physics horribly hurting bleach characters, if he considers it significant enough to give characters win cons over others why would I not take them into consideration as well?
We assume things in bleach are 1:1 to the real life world except when it's shown to be otherwise, simply guesses won't cut it, and also you don't get to say "no we won't apply modern physics here" but at the same time apply modern physics to get those incredibly high joule values in those calcs, that's again explicit cherrypicking

Redundant, it's applied to every single verse, including your favorite verses, stop cherry picking like you said .

 

[Hellscream]

This is so hypocritical…

You start off with

This

And this

Arguing that statements > visuals/pixel scaling. But then you say this literally 1 sentence later

Do you not see the hypocrisy?

You're arguing against pixel scaling visuals, and in favor of statements when it benefits you.
But when statements go against your narrative suddenly you mock people for using them over visuals and chainscaling?

So which is it? Do statements supersede our calculations/measurements or not?

And if we do agree LN has inconsistent size portrayal why would we use it as a point of reference when calculating feats?

We can't expect the mangaka who clearly used physics of outer space as an in-universe factor to measure other atmospheric physics, but we can use it to calculate destruction and KE feats?
Again, you're completely fine with using physics to upscale Bleach but also against using physics when it downgrades it?

To me this reads as wanting to use any method available for upgrading while restricting the same methods for downgrades.

You obviously don't know the entirety of the history of bleach related threads of Statements > visuals, so i don't even know why you're addressing me.
There is 0 hypocrisy.

Statements supersede anything, as they are the most consistent, visual representation can be used for shapes, and general looks of how the buildings look.
And stop cherry picking with the usage of phycis to upscale verses, when it's done for every verse, tha amount of invalidated calcs just because it doesn't 100% act the way it would in physics.

 

[ichimojii]

"Just because something isn't the size of a country doesn't mean it isn't" that's what you're saying. The place doesn't have a single visual representation of being that big and everything you've been using are statements. And NO, statements are not always > visuals, if ever. If statements contradict visuals it doesn't mean statements takes priority, it NEVER worked like that, and we're not changing it now.

Using this logic you can downgrade one piece and naruto since they also suffer from this. All these arguments were made in other threads and got rejected theirs nothing new here

Kubo doesn't draw things consistently the size they are stated to be. The seireitei for example is stated to be a 10 day even tho visually it looks no more the 5km. The 3 day walk statement is made characters who actually live in Los noches

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Prove, that 5 giga joules is her maximum output, despite tanking or being relative, purely due to the fact of being a sternritter takes precedence.
It's also the other characters that she has fought, and are relative to her that have the feats
multiple other characters literally stated right after that it wouldn't defeat ichigo, and it was her base form
Irrelevant

we don't scale candice to building level because there are other more consistent ways to scale her but this logic don't apply to Las Noches which has far more consistent ways to be size scaled? do you not see the explicit hypocrisy lmfao
also is the last part a "nuh uh" instead of actually arguing anything

You obviously don't know the entirety of the history of bleach related threads of Statements > visuals, so i don't even know why you're addressing me.
There is 0 hypocrisy.

I do, I've read 90% of the older bleach threads and 100% of every bleach thread arc made, some of them reread a few times even, the statements vs visuals thing was for the Seretei and it had different arguments and different pieces of evidence that made it appealing to trust those over visuals at the time, Las Noches has none of those positives and 10x the negatives

 

[DavidTPPM]

Statements supersede anything, as they are the most consistent,

So Candice building level statement and Kenpachis steel statement, and Askins fall damage statement completely supersede all the calculations putting these characters past tier 8? Might as well thrown in mountain level Aizen making 7A feats impressive.

I mean like you said statements supersede anything right?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Using this logic you can downgrade one piece and naruto since they also suffer from this.

Don't care for either. Go and downgrade both.

All these arguments were made in other threads and got rejected theirs nothing new here

Don't care either, Bleach has this thing where its fans can't stand be questioned. Now they are being questioned and you either answer our concerns or the verse is getting downgraded.

Kubo doesn't draw things consistently the size they are stated to be.

Then don't use his art to calculate feats.

The seireitei for example is stated to be a 10 day even tho visually it looks no more the 5km. The 3 day walk statement is made characters who actually live in Los noches

Then don't use his art to calculate feats related to these locations.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Using this logic you can downgrade one piece and naruto since they also suffer from this. All these arguments were made in other threads and got rejected theirs nothing new here

Agreed, Nuke them too, matter of fact feel free to make a thread about it

Kubo doesn't draw things consistently the size they are stated to be.

He does draw consistently for Las Noches, idk why yall keep parroting this one line like some prayer/chant
You can't take issues another thing is facing and slap it on Las Noches to reap the same benefits when it does not have those issues, I made sure to explicitly support this part in the blog

 

[Saqphire]

Yall are using whataboutism from other universes with their rules to justify the sizes for Bleach bro... As well as terrible arguments such as "statements supersede everything (except when the statements are things I dont like such as 8-C Candice)"...

My community is kinda cooked

 

[M3X_2.0]

The statements yall want to be valid are valid but when it's somehow a "bad" statement it doesn't work. When the art is inconsistent it can't be used to dismiss statements but the same inconsistent art is used for calculations.

Give me a good damn reason to not reject all these calcs Ghost linked right now. It takes one minute to comment on them saying they don't work because of the art. That's what yall are forcing me to do here.

 

[Damage3245]

This statement from Nell is completely ridiculous even in-context and treated seriously:

We never see this supposed gate as far as I'm aware to measure how far away it actually is. Renji responds to her statement as if they'd actually seriously walk there as the only other alternative to smashing through the walls to get inside.

Ichigo and Ulquirro are able to fly up to the canopy of Las Noches in seconds as seen here and here. A height which is not too wildly different from the diameter of Las Noches itself when you look at the proportions of the structure. Travel speed / time should not be an issue for them if we're meant to believe this is even a serious factor for supporting Las Noches' size.

I think it's clear that Kubo just threw out a statement from Nell without thinking about it to add context for why they're breaking through the wall to get in, instead of looking for an entrance.

So using this as the basis for multiple calcs when there is nothing to corroborate or support Nel's statement is wild.

Ragebait, you were there during multiple bleach related threads of statements vs visuals

Yeah, then you should know which side I am on.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't really care lmao, i'll destroy u on DC if u want to debate the subject 1 on 1 ghost

Yk my discord

If you don't care then stop filling up the thread with posts.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yall are using whataboutism from other universes with their rules to justify the sizes for Bleach bro... As well as terrible arguments such as "statements supersede everything (except when the statements are things I dont like such as 8-C Candice)"...

My community is kinda cooked

Save the bleach community scarlet summer!!




but jokes aside, it's getting kinda ridiculous when the supporters keep going in circles about the same thing all while refusing to realise how cherrypicky & hypocritical they come off

 

[Saqphire]

He does draw consistently for Las Noches, idk why yall keep parroting this one line like some prayer/chant
You can't take issues another thing is facing and slap it on Las Noches to reap the same benefits when it does not have those issues, I made sure to explicitly support this part in the blog

He also draws consistently for Seireitei if you consider that to be a city instead of a country almost the size of Iran's border length, the "inconsistencies" are from fanmade assumptions about Yoruichi's statement

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't really care lmao, i'll destroy u on DC if u want to debate the subject 1 on 1 ghost

Yk my discord

sure brother, you would def win, unfortunately, I'm not driven by ego or wishes to beat people in discord debates like this is some gangster war, this thread is for re establishing accuracy & consistency, I would request you to be cordial and not comment these disruptive things here in the future please.

 

[Foriaa]

Neutral, not that it matters though. I think I spoke to you and scarlet about something similar on discord?

 

[ichimojii]

This statement from Nell is completely ridiculous even in-context and treated seriously:

We never see this supposed gate as far as I'm aware to measure how far away it actually is. Renji responds to her statement as if they'd actually seriously walk there as the only other alternative to smashing through the walls to get inside.

Ichigo and Ulquirro are able to fly up to the canopy of Las Noches in seconds as seen here and here. A height which is not too wildly different from the diameter of Las Noches itself when you look at the proportions of the structure. Travel speed / time should not be an issue for them if we're meant to believe this is even a serious factor for supporting Las Noches' size.

I think it's clear that Kubo just threw out a statement from Nell without thinking about it to add context for why they're breaking through the wall to get in, instead of looking for an entrance.

So using this as the basis for multiple calcs when there is nothing to corroborate or support Nel's statement is wild.


Yeah, then you should know which side I am on.

Nel has been giving them valid information on arrancars and hollows through their journey why would she just randomly lie about the size of lost noches? Yea ichigo and Ulquiorra are in much stronger forms going at top speeds. While Nel's statement is just talking about walking speed

 

[ichimojii]

Don't care for either. Go and downgrade both.

Don't care either, Bleach has this thing where its fans can't stand be questioned. Now they are being questioned and you either answer our concerns or the verse is getting downgraded.

Then don't use his art to calculate feats.

Then don't use his art to calculate feats related to these locations.

Not that i don't like the verse being questioned but this stuff was already addressed in a past thread which you can look at right here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-las-noches-size-2-0.54745/

 

[M3X_2.0]

Not that i don't like the verse being questioned but this stuff was already addressed in a past thread which you can look at right here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-las-noches-size-2-0.54745/

It can be addressed again. Don’t you worry.

 

[Damage3245]

@Hellscream No ragebaiting on the thread. Knock it off.

 

[KingogKings777]

@Hellscream No ragebaiting on the thread. Knock it off.

Can you at least at impartial and call out M3X_2.0 for this or we just calling out Hellscream?

 

[Foriaa]

Would it be better for this to have been staff only?

 

[Damage3245]

Can you at least at impartial and call out M3X_2.0 for this or we just calling out Hellscream?

If you take another look, that commented has already been deleted.