The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

[Qurbonboev]

That's fine,

Wait, did you agree with my reasoning about needing at least supersonic speed for electric attacks to work against humans?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Wait, did you agree with my reasoning about needing at least supersonic speed for electric attacks to work against humans?

No. It's magic. Any power behind the attack can also just be magic. Plus, Frisk is affected by real electricity (in terms of paralyzation) but not magic electricity, it's the reason why we're not validating it anymore.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What I meant is that the point was that we do not really scale people from Tsunderplane besides characters who are clearly above her by lore, and I was not the one who bothered to make stuff for Vulkin lol, we can always change stuff here. If we talk about speed ratings, we can talk about speed scaling too.

True, true, Vulkin scaling to Tsunderplane when she's faster than Vulkin's main way of attacking is just not good. Otherwise, yeah, other monsters and Frisk scaling about the plane makes total sense.

We can definitely change that.

Huh?

33c Kizaru is not gonna last much longer. Sorry for the unrelated mention of it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why ZUN is giving Inaba such slow attacks? Doesn't he know that if bullets aren't million times faster than the player, it can be dodged easily and aren't a challenge. Is he bad game designer?

Do you need Toby to personally say that this duck is much slower than Kris?
Frisk is much faster than Vulkin electric attacks, it's obvious to anyone with eyes. You don't need any pixelscaling to intuit this.

This is a non-sequitur. Vulkin has no other way to attack other than their magic bullets.

Scaling their attack speed 3x above their attack speed is just a circular argument.

 

[Qurbonboev]

This is a non-sequitur. Vulkin has no other way to attack other than their magic bullets.

1. How tf it's a non-sequitur? I directly showed you example of character that creates very difficult danmaku using bullets that are much slower than player character. And for that matters, many girls in Touhou have only attacks that are much slower than protagonists, this doesn't make them easy to go through by any means.
2. Other magic bullet they have is much faster, and is relative to SOUL speed.

Scaling their attack speed 3x above their attack speed is just a circular argument.

What?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

1. How tf it's a non-sequitur? I directly showed you example of character that creates very difficult danmaku using bullets that are much slower than player character. And for that matters, many girls in Touhou have only attacks that are much slower than protagonists, this doesn't make them easy to go through by any means.

Slower than what? They combat speed, aka, meanings of fighting outside of these bullet patterns? Something Vulkin lacks? Yeah. These examples don't work.

2. Other magic bullet they have is much faster, and is relative to SOUL speed.

This is VERIFIABLY incorrect. The lightning attack is the fastest thing Vulkin has.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Slower than what?

Slower than protagonist character.
Do you agree or no that Frisk is much faster than Vulkin attacks or no?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Slower than protagonist character.
Do you agree or no that Frisk is much faster than Vulkin attacks or no?

Brother, do you not understand what we're discussing here?

Vulkin has an electric attack, it's their fastest attack. (IMPORTANT CONTEXT)
Tsunderplane is calculated 3x faster than this attack.
Vulkin is scaled comparable to Tsunderplane.

Thus, Vulkin combat speed is scaled 3x higher than their own attacks, even though their only form of attacking is that same attack.

Thus, Vulkin's lightning is scaled 3x faster than their own lightning.

It shouldn't be hard to understand why that's a problem.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Brother, do you not understand what we're discussing here?

Vulkin has an electric attack, it's their fastest attack. (IMPORTANT CONTEXT)
Tsunderplane is calculated 3x faster than this attack.
Vulkin is scaled comparable to Tsunderplane.

Thus, Vulkin combat speed is scaled 3x higher than their own attacks, even though their only form of attacking is that same attack.

Thus, Vulkin's lightning is scaled 3x faster than their own lightning.

It shouldn't be hard to understand why that's a problem.

I don't care slightest for Vulkin own combat speed.
Would you satisfied with something like
"Unknown combat speed, Mach 1.6 with electric attacks"? Other monsters and Frisk would still retain supersonic+ for being faster than Vulkin electric attacks?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't care slightest for Vulkin own combat speed.
Would you satisfied with something like
"Unknown combat speed, Mach 1.6 with electric attacks"?

I give up, we're speaking different languages atp

Other monsters and Frisk would still retain supersonic+ for being faster than Vulkin electric attacks?

They wouldn't because we're disregarding magic electricity in its entirety, we're just pointing out bad scaling in the verse pages.

 

[Qurbonboev]

They wouldn't because we're disregarding magic electricity in its entirety, we're just pointing out bad scaling in the verse pages.

Someone doesn't understand context

I give up, we're speaking different languages

So what exactly do you want for scaling? (If magic electricity still remains)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Someone doesn't understand context
So what exactly do you want for scaling? (If magic electricity still remains)

No one is questioning the way characters scale outside of Vulkin. This is honestly a pointless discussion, if we're not tackling the arguments of OP, I will not engage anymore.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

No one is questioning the way characters scale outside of Vulkin. This is honestly a pointless discussion, if we're not tackling the arguments of OP, I will not engage anymore.

You do realise the op used puzzle that use magic due underground being made of magic right ? "Oh but it isnt magic" even thier food is magic.

 

[Qurbonboev]

If we are engaging with OP arguments

This is basically an indirect violation of the "Evading Punches" rule, since it is calculating that characters are way faster than attacks from someone they scale comparable to:

No it's not. This case doesn't fall under evading punches criteria.
Evading punches rule is for cases where for sake of dramatic moment character is depicted much faster than attack they shouldn't be much faster.
1. Frisk is calculated to be faster than attack speed of Vulkin attacks, and this attack doesn't have any narrative significance showing it as being faster than Frisk.

Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity,

2. Frisk and Tsunderplane are always much faster than Vulkin attacks, whenever they are close to them, or far from them.

Only reason Vulkin has comparable combat speed to Frisk is due to UES.
Closest example from other verses would have been some hypothetical DB character without legs and arms and who can only use one very specific type of attack against Goku. This attack has stated SoL speed. Goku is consistently shown to be much faster than that attack, and facing difficulty with dodging it solely due to AoE, or presence of another opponent. If that hypothetical DB character shown to be comparable to Goku in AP and durability (due to being able to damage Goku and surviving his attacks) he would technically have same combat speed as Goku, despite having difficulties with exerting that speed.
His profile would be "FTL combat speed, with SoL attack speed".
Same here. Correct profile for Tsunderplane would be "Supersonic+ combat speed, with Supersonic attack speed".
In both cases Combat speed is just technicality. (They can use it for ramming though)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If we are engaging with OP arguments


No it's not. This case doesn't fall under evading punches criteria.
Evading punches rule is for cases where for sake of dramatic moment character is depicted much faster than attack they shouldn't be much faster.
1. Frisk is calculated to be faster than attack speed of Vulkin attacks, and this attack doesn't have any narrative significance showing it as being faster than Frisk.

2. Frisk and Tsunderplane are always much faster than Vulkin attacks, whenever they are close to them, or far from them.

This is such a minor argument. Whatever conclusion we draw from here will not make the downgrade more or less likely

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

This is such a minor argument. Whatever conclusion we draw from here will not make the downgrade more or less likely

Minor argument whem show other evidences do stop a argument.

 

[IDK3465]

I just got off a plane flight and now Sans is gonna get speed stomped by the MCU wha

 

[Qurbonboev]

This is such a minor argument. Whatever conclusion we draw from here will not make the downgrade more or less likely

I am not the one that put it in OP
(Also I added example in my post to make it more easy ro explain)

Only reason Vulkin has comparable combat speed to Frisk is due to UES.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think the argument of speeds being inconsistent isn't great, some level of inconsistency can be tolerated in powerscaling and "projectiles aren't quite 1 to 1 in relative speed" feels like it would fall under that umbrella to me. I suppose it's subjective but I don't consider that reason to ignore feats myself.

I do however lean towards these feats not being very valid due to the other reasons presented though. I had previously been neutral on the matter of UT electricity speed but the fact that the speed is directly controlled by the monsters and behaves unrealistically seems like a fair argument against it, and treating floating letters as sound waves is kind of just wrong.

Something that could be worth calcing is calculating Frisk's movement speed compared to Undyne's spears, if you assume them to be flying as fast as IRL human throwing speed (which seems reasonable enough to me).

 

[SnakesCity]

"Magic Electricity"
Vulkin
The currently accepted "electricity" scaling comes from Vulkin’s attacks, which are scaled through Tsunderplane moving in tandem with while Frisk dodges them. Other than the issue I already pointed out with the calculation above, the attack just shouldn't be used as the actual speed of electricity. Vulkin refers to the attack as a "thunder" and is manually controlling its speed ("speed up"). This is also shown by the fact that the attack’s speed changes depending on Vulkin’s emotional state (as it is now way faster after he gets hugged). The attack's speed has no correlation to any real constant speed like the speed of electricity for it to be used and is actually determined by the user like a regular magic attack.

Just wanted to hop in and say literally all of this is embarrassingly wrong, the "speed up" that Vulkin refers to is the fact that YOUR speed is increased if you get hit by the bullets (because Vulkin's entire thing is that it's trying to help you in a misguided way). Even worse, the second part is proven wrong IN THE SCAN, you can literally see the first lightning attack and the second and see that there is zero change in speed, what actually changes upon being hugged is Vulkin's attack stat!

Please scrap this section vro it's so bad.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think the argument of speeds being inconsistent isn't great, some level of inconsistency can be tolerated in powerscaling and "projectiles aren't quite 1 to 1 in relative speed" feels like it would fall under that umbrella to me. I suppose it's subjective but I don't consider that reason to ignore feats myself.

If the inconsistency is the majority of the feats, I don't think it's justified, imo.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

the "speed up" that Vulkin refers to is the fact that YOUR speed is increased if you get hit by the bullets (because Vulkin's entire thing is that it's trying to help you in a misguided way).

Wouldn't that also indicate the electricity has properties that make it different from real life/

 

[SnakesCity]

Wouldn't that also indicate the electricity has properties that make it different from real life/

I don't care about that I care about the actual accuracy of what's being presented in the OP.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Wouldn't that also indicate the electricity has properties that make it different from real life/

Real electricity doesn't do Soul damage.

the fact that the speed is directly controlled by the monsters

Should bring to the attention that electric attacks of Mettaton still continue to move even after they pass battlebox(and thus there is no reason for Mettaton himself to accelerate them). Lends credence to the idea that it's effect of Mettaton heart, not something that Mettaton himself wants.

And only time we see them stationary is in Flowey capture Cutscene, where every monster bullet is shown not moving.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Just wanted to hop in and say literally all of this is embarrassingly wrong, the "speed up" that Vulkin refers to is the fact that YOUR speed is increased if you get hit by the bullets (because Vulkin's entire thing is that it's trying to help you in a misguided way). Even worse, the second part is proven wrong IN THE SCAN, you can literally see the first lightning attack and the second and see that there is zero change in speed, what actually changes upon being hugged is Vulkin's attack stat!

Please scrap this section vro it's so bad.

Ninja’d, although timer section is worse.

 

[Armorchompy]

Just wanted to hop in and say literally all of this is embarrassingly wrong, the "speed up" that Vulkin refers to is the fact that YOUR speed is increased if you get hit by the bullets (because Vulkin's entire thing is that it's trying to help you in a misguided way).

This is fair.

Should bring to the attention that electric attacks of Mettaton still continue to move even after they pass battlebox(and thus there is no reason for Mettaton himself to accelerate them). Lends credence to the idea that it's effect of Mettaton heart, not something that Mettaton himself wants.

That doesn't really change things but also I don't think it really implies either.

And only time we see them stationary is in Flowey capture Cutscene, where every monster bullet is shown not moving.

Well yeah, that supports the idea that most monsters' magic is the creation of constructs they can move around to their liking, rather than natural elements they just sort of let loose.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

This is fair.

That doesn't really change things but also I don't think it really implies either.

Well yeah, that supports the idea that most monsters' magic is the creation of constructs they can move around to their liking, rather than natural elements they just sort of let loose.

Everything inside the underground is magic tho (food, technology, elements, knowledge and etc)

 

[Robo432343]

@Rodriiogo Frisk couldn't react to Undyne's spear throw

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

@Rodriiogo Frisk couldn't react to Undyne's spear throw

Dude...why frisk would even react to it ?

 

[Rodriiogo]

Ok I'm home now (holy man, how did it get to 4 pages already)
Let me clarify so people stop cutting the argument into pieces.

The start of the argument is me clarifying that, as of right now, there is no actual real justification to why the electricity and sound attacks are real other than "Other magic has some properties similar to the real stuff":

Spoiler: In the OP

Pretty much, the entire scaling system originates from the premise that "magic attacks = the real thing in speed". This was talked about here in this thread for example.
The justification for this is that some forms of magic show properties similar to the real thing (Such as Toriel's fire heating up food, Papyrus's bones attracting and feeding Dogs and Ice Magic cooling you). From this, for some reason, the scaling does a leap in logic and just decides to say that all magic is now equal to the real counterpart in every aspect, including speed.

The reasoning is just flawed to begin with from there. The fact that some magic attacks have some properties of the real thing does not logically imply that all magic within the verse must match the real one in every single way. It's just an overgeneralization with basically zero justification. So from this, the entire basis for the current speed scaling is already questionable. It relies on an assumption that is not supported by the game and is contradicted (more on that later).

This means the reasoning to why this is valid is already weakened by default. It's purely an assumption, because of this, anti-feats and anti-showings hold way more value and will be way more significant than, for example, if the electricity actually had electrocuted Frisk and if the sound was actually verbatim called a sound attack. We'd be in a different scenario if that was the case. In this moment, inconsistencies will always hold more value due to the fact that its an Assumption VS Something actually shown. If an anti-feat or "inconsistency" is shown, and there is no "consistency" to begin with, the actual consistency would be the fact that it isn't one, not that it is.

Electricity
Vulkin's electricity has no properties and is never called electricity in the first place so when there's inconsistencies such as being called a thunder, and has it's speed manually controlled, speeding up the moment Vulkin gets more emotional. The assumption doesn't work anymore since there's nothing supporting the fact that it's real other than... the assumption. So it's something (the anti-showing) VS nothing (0 properties, 0 consistency)
Same goes for Mettaton's who also have no properties and are never explicitly called electricity, so the moment they are shown to accelerate and move in an unrealistic manner compared to how actual electricity should move alongside Alphys showing that this magic is simply something they summon and simply apply speed to it however they can so if speed is not applied it simply stands still, the assumption that the current scaling uses does not work anymore.
This gets worse when we have actual realistic showings of electricity in the verse, being actually able to electrocute Frisk to the point they can't move, while other straight up blitzes them on-screen and also makes them unable to move.
The conclusion is that the assumption we are doing is faulty and is ignoring how the electricity in the verse is actually shown.

Sound
The reason sound attacks like Greater Dog's barks are taken as "sound" is simply "it's a bark and that's the sound they make so it must be the sound", once again this is weak reasoning for reasons I don't think I even have to say why? So when it's shown to us that magic can indeed be shaped into words, the whole assumption is put into question of "is it really?". Which is why I then bring up Shyren, whose way of attacking is idential to Greater Dog as it comes from her singing and the attacks come out of her mouth, so when we get blatant visual confirmation of the speed of those notes compared to visual elemnts such as Napstablook's spinning discs, very visibly showing that the notes do not travel at sound speed, why would we assume that Greater Dog's is any different and is actually sound speed? It's assuming stuff for the sake of assuming.


That's why counters such as:
"Oh but it could just be a inconsistency with how its portrayed/shown"

This doesn't make any sense. For it to be an inconsistency, there has to be any consistency/properties within the verse to begin with that this electricity/sound attacks are actual electricity/sound, can ANYONE bring up any showing/property of this being the case or consistent...? No...? Then there is no inconsistency. It's an assumption VS the so called "inconsistency" that is actually shown and supported in the story. There is nothing supporting them being the actual thing (no properties, no showings) or the characters being those speeds (no feats, no statements other than the ones at the hand), while in the contrary as I showed:

Spoiler: In the OP Part 2

It is rather obvious that the characters are not meant to be moving or attacking at high speeds but if someone wants proof of this,
Alongside the fact that I already showed that Frisk gets blitzed by actual real electricity, during Undyne's chase sequence, Frisk is able to move at speeds comparable to Undyne’s spears. Undyne is currently accepted as a fast character in-verse, obviously, and by extension, her attacks should also be at that level, especially when she is very much trying to catch you here.
Frisk's running/walking speed is able to keep up with these attacks while moving at visibly slow speeds. And if visuals aren't enough, during Metaton's acts, timers explicitly show that Frisk moves at normal human speeds (Just look at the timer counting down as they move), this happens more than once even. This means Frisk's (basically stated) regular human walking/running speeds are able to move at comparable speeds to Undyne's attacks, proving they are indeed not meant to be that fast.

I hope this clears up and people stop bringing up the same counter argument, it gets to a point.

 

[SnakesCity]

Electricity
and has it's speed manually controlled, speeding up the moment Vulkin gets more emotional.

This is still completely wrong please God examine your own scans thoroughly before posting.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

speeding up the moment Vulkin gets more emotional.

You have a solid foundation, please drop the objectively false claims.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I think the argument of speeds being inconsistent isn't great, some level of inconsistency can be tolerated in powerscaling and "projectiles aren't quite 1 to 1 in relative speed" feels like it would fall under that umbrella to me. I suppose it's subjective but I don't consider that reason to ignore feats myself.

I do however lean towards these feats not being very valid due to the other reasons presented though. I had previously been neutral on the matter of UT electricity speed but the fact that the speed is directly controlled by the monsters and behaves unrealistically seems like a fair argument against it, and treating floating letters as sound waves is kind of just wrong.

Something that could be worth calcing is calculating Frisk's movement speed compared to Undyne's spears, if you assume them to be flying as fast as IRL human throwing speed (which seems reasonable enough to me).

Same spear is able to cut a pier...not even a real life spear would cut a pier in half...

 

[Rodriiogo]

This is still completely wrong please God examine your own scans thoroughly before posting.

You are making me go through the code to prove it sure:

Here's the script for Vulkin's attack;
^ Do you want me to explain? I will

The "lightning" get faster over time because it it using negative friction, which in GameMaker makes that continuous acceleration. Each bullet starts with a low speed (speed = 1) but gradually speeds up the longer it exist, however it is also depending on the global.firingrate, so if the firing rate is low, the friction is more negative −0.15 as you can see in the script. The moment he gets excited, he increases his own firing rate which makes the friction in the script more negative.

 

[Agnaa]

I've been through this rodeo many times, where the same arguments have been repeated.

I agree with the OP, and with Armor's & Eden's suggestions for potential replacement speed feats.

 

[SnakesCity]

You are making me go through the code to prove it sure:

Here's the script for Vulkin's attack;
^ Do you want me to explain? I will

The "lightning" get faster over time because it it using negative friction, which in GameMaker makes that continuous acceleration. Each bullet starts with a low speed (speed = 1) but gradually speeds up the longer it exist, however it is also depending on the global.firingrate, so if the firing rate is low, the friction is more negative −0.15 as you can see in the script. The moment he gets excited, he increases his own firing rate which makes the friction in the script more negative.

If the code proves me wrong, then yeah I'll concede that point.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I've been through this rodeo many times, where the same arguments have been repeated.

I agree with the OP, and with Armor's suggestion for a potential replacement speed feat.

And why ?

 

[Agnaa]

And why ?

I find the underlying arguments for these ratings bad. The idea that we should take a few realistic properties of other attacks as justification for these attacks' speed, despite how obviously unlike the actual references those magic attacks behave, and despite how much control and strangeness there is in their movements, has always seemed wrong to me.

The "evading punches" concern, and Shyren's notes being comparable to Napstablook's music disks, are cogent arguments I hadn't thought of before, with their counterarguments not moving me.

 

[DaReaperMan]

When are we going to remove things like the Sea Tea Multiplier scaling to Sans?

Agreed with this thread, Armor and Eden also make major sense to me. If nothing else, scale people to Papyrus' walking speed, which has a calc at Superhuman.

 

[Agnaa]

You are making me go through the code to prove it sure:

Here's the script for Vulkin's attack;
^ Do you want me to explain? I will

The "lightning" get faster over time because it it using negative friction, which in GameMaker makes that continuous acceleration. Each bullet starts with a low speed (speed = 1) but gradually speeds up the longer it exist, however it is also depending on the global.firingrate, so if the firing rate is low, the friction is more negative −0.15 as you can see in the script. The moment he gets excited, he increases his own firing rate which makes the friction in the script more negative.

Found this a bit odd, so looked into it myself, and can confirm.

Looking at Vulkin's overall script (source), their firingrate is a larger number (so, less frequent) when there's more enemies, and when they've been criticised. With it being a smaller number when they're encouraged.

So combining those two code snippets, their attacks do gain speed more quickly when encouraged.