The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

[Arceus0x]

Not fully sure about the electricity but I disagree with the supersonic downgrade for the reasons that were provided by Strym.

 

[Homie890]

So.
Let me see if i understood this.
Undertale is now 9-B, and now will only be Subsonic?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

So.
Let me see if i understood this.
Undertale is now 9-B, and now will only be Subsonic?

They probally would become insane if said Frisk's Have irrelevant speed

 

[StrymULTRA]

Echidna, genuinely, can you stop? What are you exactly contributing, you've saying stuff that's just irrelevant.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

1. She carries with herself her phone. And we know that phones made by her can do more than just texting. Besides, more important point:

That's another layer of assumption, I will not entertain this whatsoever.


This is a reach. The attack in the Alphys cutscene is not her pointing her phone at something, she can't move, she never reaches to her phone, her phone is never shown to have that capability.
There's so many layers of assumptions you need to get through to even BEGIN to talk about this possibility.

it's the same floating, rotating, accelerating bullet pattern identical to Mettaton's. There's zero indication her phone is the source, zero indication her phone can generate combat-applicable electric fields, and invoking it requires multiple unsupported assumptions stacked on top of each other. By this logic you could attribute any unexplained ability to whatever object a character happens to be carrying. That's not an argument

2. I am not saying that magic isn't involved here(Mettaton is creature of magic&metal). I am saying that another mechanism is just magic>electric field>electric attack.

If Magic is involved, the electric field can be skipped entirely. This concession actually hurts your point. If magic is the origin, there's no reason the causal chain has to be magic → electric field → charged particles → acceleration. Magic could simply be magic → attack that looks like electricity
But magic has no obligation to route itself through real physical mechanisms. We already know Undertale magic produces effects that resemble real phenomena without obeying their underlying rules

3. And yes, there is limit of how slow you can make electricity and be faithful to our case(mainly in matter of distance crossed and damage dealt).

So we can conclusively say the electricity is not realistic.

1. Most big electric fields aren't uniform.
2. Can create non uniform electric fields.
3. When exactly they rotate? They don't here.

I misremembered the rotation, still.

You're now three layers deep in hypotheticals: a magic-generated, electric field, sourced either from Mettaton's heart or possibly Alphys's phone, that produces particle behavior conveniently consistent with a speed feat. Each layer adds an assumption that requires independent justification.

Meanwhile the opposing explanation, magic bullets with guided movement, aesthetically resembling electricity, requires exactly zero additional assumptions and covers every case consistently. Occam's razor.

 

[Arceus0x]

So.
Let me see if i understood this.
Undertale is now 9-B, and now will only be Subsonic?

You can always disagree bro

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Echidna, genuinely, can you stop? What are you exactly contributing, you've saying stuff that's just irrelevant.

The secret npc that expect a "room" to change is irrelevant ? Like even deltarune we have this stuff

Dont think it irrelevant at all

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

But sure i "stop" and will see the arguments

 

[StrymULTRA]

The secret npc that expect a "room" to change is irrelevant ? Like even deltarune we have this stuff

Dont think it irrelevant at all

Why is it relevant to the speed?????

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Why is it relevant to the speed?????

Let him cook bro

 

[Randomuser3412]

Following

Following

(Hi Wizard, it's me, Trader)

 

[Randomuser3412]

Someone post the "No correlation" graph meme (seriously, stop spamming threads like this, though)

 

[Da3ggman]

Echidna, bro, please, stop posting random nonsense that doesn’t correlate to the thread. Like, I don’t like to micromanage threads and all (Lord knows I dick around sometimes) but it’s just clogging the thread up with stuff we don’t need, and on an Undertale thread no less. This is getting close to rule violation levels derailing.

 

[Qurbonboev]

That's another layer of assumption, I will not entertain this whatsoever.

She literally uses phone all the time.

So we can conclusively say the electricity is not realistic.

Bruh. You misinterpreted me. Only thing I was saying here was that:
1) You can theoretically make slower than supersonic electricity
2) But it wouldn't be able to cross long distances(and by long I mean anything in centimeters range), and wouldn't be able to pierce human skin(and thus no damage)
So Electric attacks that meant to damage Frisk shouldn't be slower than supersonic.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Echidna, bro, please, stop posting random nonsense that doesn’t correlate to the thread. Like, I don’t like to micromanage threads and all (Lord knows I dick around sometimes) but it’s just clogging the thread up with stuff we don’t need, and on an Undertale thread no less. This is getting close to rule violation levels derailing.

Sure i stop

 

[GodlyCharmander]

She literally uses phone all the time.

That doesn't mean you can just give the phone a new ability and attribute every action she does to the phone without evidence.

Bruh. You misinterpreted me. Only thing I was saying here was that:
1) You can theoretically make slower than supersonic electricity
2) But it wouldn't be able to cross long distances(and by long I mean anything in centimeters range), and wouldn't be able to pierce human skin(and thus no damage)
So Electric attacks that meant to damage Frisk shouldn't be slower than supersonic.

That's fine, but the fact Alphys made magic electricity stand still is proof it can be controlled dynamically from the magic user, which is the whole point on why it's unrealistic to compare the SOUL speed to magic bullets.

 

[ShionAH]

I disagree with the thread because of that bums arguments

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think I can come up with a better response tomorrow with more arguments for also the electricity stuff, I am just not in the mood rn to reply to threads atm (also becasue I need to do quite a bit of stuff for personal matters).

I admit that the evidence here is a lot, so it'll take a bit to me in order to form a proper counter arg.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think I can come up with a better response tomorrow with more arguments for also the electricity stuff, I am just not in the mood rn to reply to threads atm (also becasue I need to do quite a bit of stuff for personal matters).

I admit that the evidence here is a lot, so it'll take a bit to me in order to form a proper counter arg.

You can also just agree, we can welcome you to the dark side! /j

But take your time, the thread will not move on until we hear from you, dw

 

[ShionAH]

So from what I get this is trying to downgrade anyone outside Asriel FP Frisk, Chara and Sans right?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

And if visuals aren't enough, during Metaton's acts, timers explicitly show that Frisk moves at normal human speeds (Just look at the timer counting down as they move), this happens more than once even.

As a FNaF fan where 6 game hours are equal to 6-9 real life minutes depending on the game, I am so freaking scared.

 

[Mommyleona]

So from what I get this is trying to downgrade anyone outside Asriel FP Frisk, Chara and Sans right?

No, Sans too

 

[Qurbonboev]

the fact Alphys made magic electricity stand still is proof it can be controlled dynamically from the magic user

Agree with this, thought not in the exact details.

which is the whole point on why it's unrealistic to compare the SOUL speed to magic bullets.

But this part doesn't doesn't make sense in light of your agreement with my specific statement above. If you agree that electricity that meant to damage Frisk(or any humans if that matters) shouldn't be slower than supersonic, you obviously should concede that Frisk speed while they are moving faster than electric attacks meant to damage them should be supersonic too.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans

Why the sneak bro

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So from what I get this is trying to downgrade anyone outside Asriel FP Frisk, Chara and Sans right?

Sans trying to sneak into the god tiers so he won't be downgraded:

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But this part doesn't doesn't make sense in light of your agreement with my specific statement above. If you agree that electricity that meant to damage Frisk(or any humans if that matters) shouldn't be slower than supersonic, you obviously should concede that Frisk speed while they are moving faster than electric attacks meant to damage them should be supersonic too.

I didn't concede on that. Pardon me if it gave that impression.

My point on how magic electricity is controlled by the user with bullets are related to the fact that said electricity wouldn't have the same speed as the natural element travelling through air without any restrictions. The point with Alphys is that we have definitive proof that the magic behaves unrealistically to some extent, shifting the burden of proof to your side to prove it retains the real life electricity's speed.

Pair that, with all the other counterpoints and anti-feats for electricity specifically, and I think the case against hypersonic Undertale becomes quite solid.

 

[EnderLord8]

For now, I disagree with the OP's argument regarding electricity;

I'm inclined to disagree with the sound argument for now.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

For now, I disagree with the OP's argument regarding electricity;

Can we get a reason for the disagreement? No one argued against the conclusion yet.

 

[Qurbonboev]

The current calculations calculate that Tsunderplane (and by extension Frisk) are approximately three times faster than Vulkin’s attacks. However, Vulkin is accepted to be comparable to both of them.
This is basically an indirect violation of the "Evading Punches" rule, since it is calculating that characters are way faster than attacks from someone they scale comparable to:

Also, this part is geniunely strange(strange is strongest word I can use before resorting to slurs).
1. Frisk and Tsunderplane are much faster faster than speed of this specific attack of Vulkin, but not Vulkin themselves. Which really means nothing. I guess you are applying same logic that was used against Piercing blood calcs, while forgetting that main argument against these calcs was that gave characters that were almost blitzed by Piercing Blood several times higher speed than PB. But it doesn't work here, since electric attacks of Vulkin doesn't have same narrative significance
2. Frisk is not evading punches. And their speed doesn't change whether they are close to projectiles, or whether they are dodging it at the last second.

 

[Qurbonboev]

That's fine

So what exactly this part means?

 

[Rodriiogo]

I am currently out so can't do it right now but I will make a comment when I get home cause I think people decided to just hyper-focus on like specific parts of the argument when there's a reason I lined them as subpoints each as parts of the full argument. Dividing it is genuinely so disingenous and is genuinely also ignoring the introduction. The whole electricity and sound has no properties, it being equal to the real thing is working on possibilities and assumptions of "well this completely unrelated magic has some properties so this one should have all properties of the real thing", the thread is proving that those assumptions have no basis, have multiple contradictions and directly go against the narrative and other showings (just like how real electricity with actual propeties blitzes and electrocutes Frisk, while magical one does nothing) so using it as the real thing is stupid. I don't know why the counter arguments are already working as if the "is it real?" Part had any proof to begin with.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, this part is geniunely strange(strange is strongest word I can use before resorting to slurs).
1. Frisk and Tsunderplane are much faster faster than speed of this specific attack of Vulkin, but not Vulkin themselves. Which really means nothing. I guess you are applying same logic that was used against Piercing blood calcs, while forgetting that main argument against these calcs was that gave characters that were almost blitzed by Piercing Blood several times higher speed than PB. But it doesn't work here, since electric attacks of Vulkin doesn't have same narrative significance

Vulkin's only way of attacking is through the attack they scale 3x higher than. You don't see the problem?

 

[EnderLord8]

Can we get a reason for the disagreement? No one argued against the conclusion yet.

I will reply when I have the computer at hand.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Vulkin's only way of attacking is through the attack they scale 3x higher than. You don't see the problem?

He does not have only electricity though

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He does not have only electricity though

Why would someone design a character that has an attack 3x slower than its other attacks (and not communicate this in any way in the game's dialogue or narrative).

At the very least, the way we scale these characters is quite misguided. Also this attack is not faster than the electricity.

 

[Edutyn]

how the hell do this alredy has 3 pages??? I left when it only has like 20 replies.

followimg for now, but disagree with the sound part

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why would someone design a character that has an attack 3x slower than its other attacks (and not communicate this in any way in the game's dialogue or narrative).

At the very least, the way we scale these characters is quite misguided. Also this attack is not faster than the electricity.

Tbf, we do not scale Frisk from Tsunderplane's speed, we scale only from the speed they are shown to move compared to these attacks, we literally do have in the calc part of the verse that Tsunderplane scales to a higher value, we just scale other monsters to Tsunderplane and then Frisk in later points in the game via DT boosts.

Plus, don't we do something similar with Kizaru?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tbf, we do not scale Frisk from Tsunderplane's speed, we scale only from the speed they are shown to move compared to these attacks, we literally do have in the calc part of the verse that Tsunderplane scales to a higher value, we just scale other monsters to Tsunderplane and then Frisk in later points in the game via DT boosts.

Plus, don't we do something similar with Kizaru?

Yes and no.... Also why is Kizaru 33c, what happened- ANYWAY, debunking that later.
I didn't mean the case never existed, it's just an extremely niche situation that needs to be informed in some way by the narrative. In this case, Kizaru is clearly comparable in other ways to the people who dwarf his attack's speed.

... God, I can't even pretend this makes any sense. I'm planning my next CRT.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Vulkin's only way of attacking is through the attack they scale 3x higher than. You don't see the problem?

Why would someone design a character that has an attack 3x slower than its other attacks (and not communicate this in any way in the game's dialogue or narrative).

Why ZUN is giving Inaba such slow attacks? Doesn't he know that if bullets aren't million times faster than the player, it can be dodged easily and aren't a challenge. Is he bad game designer?

Do you need Toby to personally say that this duck is much slower than Kris?
Frisk is much faster than Vulkin electric attacks, it's obvious to anyone with eyes. You don't need any pixelscaling to intuit this.

Also why is Kizaru 33c, what happened- ANYWAY, debunking that later

Good luck with that

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes and no.... Also why is Kizaru 33c, what happened- ANYWAY, debunking that later.
I didn't mean the case never existed, it's just an extremely niche situation that needs to be informed in some way by the narrative. In this case, Kizaru is clearly comparable in other ways to the people who dwarf his attack's speed.

What I meant is that the point was that we do not really scale people from Tsunderplane besides characters who are clearly above her by lore, and I was not the one who bothered to make stuff for Vulkin lol, we can always change stuff here. If we talk about speed ratings, we can talk about speed scaling too.

... God, I can't even pretend this makes any sense. I'm planning my next CRT.

Huh?