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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Antvasima said:
Well, Darkseid is here depicted as an entity bound to and affecting the multiverse, not transcending it, so I do not think that we should scale him beyond that. 🙏
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Hmm. I suppose it's best to wait a bit, as the second part of All-In has just started, but we can still add a key for King Omega Darkseid. What about Tier "1-A+, possibly High 1-A" for now, since the only part left for him to conquer was the Big Bang, which King Omega Superman had absorbed, and that he was the embodiment of Omega Energy within the Absolute Universe, which is above Crisis Energy and which fueled Perpetua and the Darkest Knight?

Or we can just wait for more information.
 
I think that we should avoid "possibly High 1-A" for now at least. What scaling would 1-A+ be based on? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I think that we should avoid "possibly High 1-A" for now at least. What scaling would 1-A+ be based on? 🙏
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If High 1-A is too uncertain at the moment, then 1-A+ would certainly work for affecting Hypertime. For record, it has been shown that Perpetua and the Darkest Knight depended on Earth-0 or any other Earths in the Multiverse allied with Doom to draw upon Crisis Energy, and they were still ranked as High 1-A despite the fact that Perpetua has no longer the same nature she had when she was called upon to create the Multiverse.

The fact that a being or entity appears to be anchored to the Multiverse does not necessarily prevent it from influencing or manipulating higher forces from beyond Creation. For example, Darkseid has bound himself to the Absolute Universe, located outside the Orrery but still included in the spatial aspect of the Divine Continuum, and yet Darkseid has become more anchored to the Omega Effect than ever before, one of the two primordial forces of the Source. Not to mention that King Omega Superman was able to absorb the Big Bang.
 
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Elizio33 said:
If High 1-A is too uncertain at the moment, then 1-A+ would certainly work for affecting Hypertime. For record, it has been shown that Perpetua and the Darkest Knight depended on Earth-0 or any other Earths in the Multiverse allied with Doom to draw upon Crisis Energy, and they were still ranked as High 1-A despite the fact that Perpetua has no longer the same nature she had when she was called upon to create the Multiverse.
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I mean you could make the argument of Alpha and Omega Energies > Crisis and Anti Crisis
 
Antvasima said:
Well, Darkseid is the embodiment of the absolute DC universe, which is a part of the DC multiverse, and he has been stated by the writers to only almost transcend space and time, and he has not been shown interacting with and affecting reality beyond the multiverse, so I definitely do not think that we have remotely sufficient amounts of available evidence for that Darkseid vastly transcends it in its entirety. 🙏
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it’s part of the multiverse but it’s also powered by omega energy which is high 1-A, flash with the entire speed force and anti crisis Wonder Woman are technically part of the multiverse but their still high 1-A because they’re powered by high 1-A forces, and do you have any scans for him only almost transcending space and time, and he literally has been shown affecting high 1-A stuff because he affected the entire speed force
 
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Elizio33 said:
If High 1-A is too uncertain at the moment, then 1-A+ would certainly work for affecting Hypertime. For record, it has been shown that Perpetua and the Darkest Knight depended on Earth-0 or any other Earths in the Multiverse allied with Doom to draw upon Crisis Energy, and they were still ranked as High 1-A despite the fact that Perpetua has no longer the same nature she had when she was called upon to create the Multiverse.

The fact that a being or entity appears to be anchored to the Multiverse does not necessarily prevent it from influencing or manipulating higher forces from beyond Creation. For example, Darkseid has bound himself to the Absolute Universe, located outside the Orrery but still included in the spatial aspect of the Divine Continuum, and yet Darkseid has become more anchored to the Omega Effect than ever before, one of the two primordial forces of the Source. Not to mention that King Omega Superman was able to absorb the Big Bang.
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I think that we should go with 1-A+ until we have more information. 🙏
Rgerdeena said:
it’s part of the multiverse but it’s also powered by omega energy which is high 1-A, flash with the entire speed force and anti crisis are technically part of the multiverse but their still high 1-A because they’re powered by high 1-A forces, and do you have any scans for him only almost transcending space and time, and he literally has been shown affecting high 1-A stuff because he affected the entire speed force
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I recall reading author statements about this issue in a BleedingCool news article, but do not know which one anymore. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I think that we should go with 1-A+ until we have more information. 🙏
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Do you have a reason for this, he scales to the speed force which is high 1-A, he scales to anti crisis energy and crisis energy which are high 1-A, he scales to Perpetua’s big bang which is high 1-A, any of these on their own would be enough to make him high 1-A
I recall reading author statements about this issue in a BleedingCool news article, but do not know which one anymore. 🙏
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No offense but, humans don’t have perfect memory and aren’t always 100% honest, so without the ability to provide scans that doesn’t invalidate the high 1-A, also even if you did have scans him only almost transcending space and time is contradicted by pretty much everything in the actual comics
 
Rgerdeena said:
Do you have a reason for this, he scales to the speed force which is high 1-A, he scales to anti crisis energy and crisis energy which are high 1-A, he scales to Perpetua’s big bang which is high 1-A, any of these on their own would be enough to make him high 1-A
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I have already stated my reasons for this. Please reread them instead of consistently wasting my time.
Rgerdeena said:
No offense but, humans don’t have perfect memory and aren’t always 100% honest, so without the ability to provide scans that doesn’t invalidate the high 1-A, also even if you did have scans him only almost transcending space and time is contradicted by pretty much everything in the actual comics
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I virtually cannot lie due to my mental condition. My unfiltered state of mind should be blatantly obvious for longtime members of this community. 🙏
 
KirbyFan03 said:
There's levels to the speedforce and its debatable if K.O.D scales to the full Deep Change. There's other High Outer args tho too imo
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Factually he has stated his reasons, but I'm not seeing any good rebuttals to convice some of us to drop KOD to just 1-A+
If he's affecting atleast 3 accepted H1A structures. I see no reason to be so dismissive.
 
Muteki616 said:
Factually he has stated his reasons, but I'm not seeing any good rebuttals to convice some of us to drop KOD to just 1-A+
If he's affecting atleast 3 accepted H1A structures. I see no reason to be so dismissive.
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Possibly affected a High 1-A structure

Being amped by a power source greater than an accepted High 1-A one

His opp needed to absorb and empower himself with a High 1-A cosmological structure to beat him
 
I think it's best to wait. As I said, the second part of All-In has just begun, and King Omega Darkseid is still out there.
 
KirbyFan03 said:
There's levels to the speedforce and its debatable if K.O.D scales to the full Deep Change. There's other High Outer args tho too imo
Click to expand...
It was not mentioned that the Deep Change was affected by Darkseid, but the Speed Force was.
 
Here's a brief suggestion for editing our DC Cosmology blog following the merger. Please note that these are simply my thoughts, based on a combination of elements from the Crisis, Vertigo, and DeMatteis cosmologies. They are by no means face values.

1. Material Realms

  • Physical reality: contains the Orrery of Worlds, the Bleed, all universes, branching realities, and separate Multiverses.
  • Tier: Low 1‑A (Totality of the Material Realms)
  • Notes: The Bleed itself is High 1‑C for being 11-D and any feats of destruction of universes in the Orrery would vary depending on the context or era, ranging from 2-C to 2-A. The full Material Realms scales to Low 1‑A. As the debased Gross Plane, a ‘dream within a dream, it represents the simplest layer of creation’s dream. Its infinite potential and scope justify a Low 1‑A rating.

2. Metaphysical Realms

Archetypal realms: contains the Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, the Dark Multiverse. Their inhabitants typically exist as living ideas or thoughts and their realms are often considered as fictions or archetypal and platonic. Even the universes in the Dark Multiverse are sometimes referred as nightmares or unrealities.
  • Tier: High 1-A (Highest parts of the Metaphysical Realms)
  • Note: The Sphere of the Gods is 1-A for existing on a higher level of existence than the Material Realms. Comic Book Limbo is possibly High 1-A for having R>F over the Multiverse and the Sphere of the Gods and is where the Writter live. Realms like the Monitor Sphere, the Dark Multiverse, the Fifth Dimension, and the Sixth Dimension are High 1-A.

3. Source Wall and the Totality of Creation/Divine Continuum

  • Totality of space and time across creation; includes Omniverse (space) and Hypertime (time)
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Contains the Multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, infinite webs of Multiverses, Limbo, and the Vanishing Point; likely contains the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth Dimension as apex layers of Creation.

4. Greater Omniverse/Infinite/Place Beyond All Places

  • Void before Creation; higher agents of The Source operate here.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Higher realms beyond the Multiverse and the Source Wall, where many agents of The Source live and create or maintain infinite Creations across the Void. It is also where creation parasites or beings originating from past versions of Creation exist.

4a. Endless
  • Embodiments of universal archetypes (Death, Dream, Desire, etc.); localized in the Sphere of the Gods and born from the Big Bang, yet their influence extends across all Creations in the Greater Omniverse.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Conceptual constants with omniversal influence, independent of any single Creation or Creators.

5. Light of Creation/Deep Change/Source’s Manifest Form
  • Manifest form of the Source/Presence/Overvoid.
  • Fundamental principle underpinning all existence; source of Speed, Still, Sage, Strength forces. All of existence enamates from it as a dream.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Mathematical principles that created and sustain all existence.

6. Primordial Void (Pralaya/Mother Night/Great Darkness)
  • Pre-creational nothingness; conceptual antithesis of the Light and Creation.
  • Precedes the Multiverse and the Light of Creation.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Same entity under different interpretations, but possessing their own identities and characteristics.

7. Source/Presence/Overvoid = God
  • Ultimate origin of all existence; God
  • Tier: 0 (Absolute)
  • Notes: Without beginning or end, immutable, indivisible, beyond all creation, duality, and hierarchy. Absolute origin of all things, beyond the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness.
 
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It mostly seems to make sense, but can somebody remind me the reasoning for the material realms being 1-A please? And shouldn't the upper logical limit of material/physical reality be Low 1-A? 🙏
 
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Antvasima said:
It mostly seems to make sense, but can somebody remind me the reasoning for the material realms being 1-A please? And shouldn't the upper logical limit of material/physical reality be Low 1-A? 🙏
Click to expand...
The 1-A ranking is based on DeMatteis' cosmology, but I think Low 1-A would be more appropriate.

Here are the reasons, taken directly from the blog:

There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. The material plane is just the debased level of Creation called the Gross Plane. Everything in Creation is a result of a dream in a dream. The material plane encompasses all the simplest levels driven by the five senses. Due to its relation to being just a dream in the higher planes, it would warrant a 1-A rating, and because there's limitless potential and possibility. Its hierarchical positing pivots a hierarchy of R>F transcendence thus the “+” modifier can be used. So any Multiversal feat of any degree affecting the material plane is 1-A and total destruction is 1-A+.
 
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Elizio33 said:
Here's a brief suggestion for editing our DC Cosmology blog following the merger. Please note that these are simply my thoughts, based on a combination of elements from the Crisis, Vertigo, and DeMatteis cosmologies. They are by no means face values.

1. Material Realms

  • Physical reality: contains the Orrery of Worlds, the Bleed, all universes, branching realities, and separate Multiverses.
  • Tier: 1‑A (Totality of the Material Realms)
  • Notes: The Bleed itself is High 1‑C for being 11-D and any feats of destruction of universes in the Orrery would vary depending on the context or era, ranging from 2-C to 2-A. The full Material Realms scales to 1‑A. As the debased Gross Plane, a ‘dream within a dream, it represents the simplest layer of creation’s dream. Its infinite potential and scope justify a 1‑A rating.

2. Metaphysical Realms

Archetypal realms: contains the Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, the Dark Multiverse. Their inhabitants typically exist as living ideas or thoughts and their realms are often considered as fictions or archetypal and platonic. Even the universes in the Dark Multiverse are sometimes referred as nightmares or unrealities.
  • Tier: 1-A+
  • Note: The Sphere of the Gods is 1-A+ for existing on a higher level of existence than the Material Realms. Comic Book Limbo is possibly High 1-A for having R>F over the Multiverse and the Sphere of the Gods and is where the Writter live. Realms like the Monitor Sphere, the Dark Multiverse, the Fifth Dimension, and the Sixth Dimension are High 1-A.

3. Source Wall and the Totality of Creation/Divine Continuum

  • Totality of space and time across creation; includes Omniverse (space) and Hypertime (time)
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Contains the Multiverse, the Sphere of the Gods, the Dark Multiverse, infinite webs of Multiverses, Limbo, and the Vanishing Point; likely contains the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth Dimension as apex layers of Creation.

4. Greater Omniverse/Infinite/Place Beyond All Places

  • Void before Creation; higher agents of The Source operate here.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Higher realms beyond the Multiverse and the Source Wall, where many agents of The Source live and create or maintain infinite Creations across the Void. It is also where creation parasites or beings originating from past versions of Creation exist.

4a. Endless
  • Embodiment of universal archetypes (Death, Dream, Desire, etc.); localized in the Sphere of the Gods and born from the Big Bang, but their true extent influences all Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: True scale spans Creations within the Greater Omniverse; omniversal influence.

5. Light of Creation/Deep Change/Source’s Manifest Form
  • Fundamental principle underpinning all existence; source of Speed, Still, Sage, Strength forces. All of existence enamates from it as a dream.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Mathematical principles that created and sustain all existence.

6. Primordial Void (Pralaya/Mother Night/Great Darkness)
  • Pre-creational nothingness; conceptual antithesis of the Light and Creation.
  • Tier: High 1‑A
  • Notes: Same entity under different interpretations.

7. Source/Presence/Overvoid = God
  • Ultimate origin of all existence; God
  • Tier: 0 (Absolute)
  • Notes: Without beginning or end, immutable, indivisible, beyond all creation, duality, and hierarchy. Absolute origin of all things, beyond the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness.
Click to expand...
Goofy was right (I wish i could have met him)
 
Elizio33 said:
The 1-A ranking is based on DeMatteis' cosmology, but I think Low 1-A would be more appropriate.

Here are the reasons, taken directly from the blog:

There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. The material plane is just the debased level of Creation called the Gross Plane. Everything in Creation is a result of a dream in a dream. The material plane encompasses all the simplest levels driven by the five senses. Due to its relation to being just a dream in the higher planes, it would warrant a 1-A rating, and because there's limitless potential and possibility. Its hierarchical positing pivots a hierarchy of R>F transcendence thus the “+” modifier can be used. So any Multiversal feat of any degree affecting the material plane is 1-A and total destruction is 1-A+.
Click to expand...
Okay, so should we revise it to Low 1-A or not? 🙏
 
Also, I think that Father Time could be another principle closely linked to the Light of Creation/Deep Change, not that they are identical, but he could have a similar relationship with the Light, like Mother Night with Pralaya and the Great Darkness.

Most of the Forces of Creation, such as the Speed Force, the Emotional Spectrum, the Alpha/Omega Effect touches all levels of existence, even those beyond the DC Universe, in the Greater Omniverse. They are often depicted as being anchored in the structure of the Multiverse, but their true extent influences, like the Endless, all Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse. This is why the World Forger was able to draw Omega Energy from across the different realities beyond the DC Universe. Even the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum have been described at least once as being located beyond the Source Wall. That would make sense considering that Wally West said that the Hands use these forces and other Anti-Crisis based energies to shape Multiverses across the Void.
 
Elizio33 said:
Also, I think that Father Time could be another principle closely linked to the Light of Creation/Deep Change, not that they are identical, but he could have a similar relationship with the Light, like Mother Night with Pralaya and the Great Darkness.

Most of the Forces of Creation, such as the Speed Force, the Emotional Spectrum, the Alpha/Omega Effect touches all levels of existence, even those beyond the DC Universe, in the Greater Omniverse. They are often depicted as being anchored in the structure of the Multiverse, but their true extent influences, like the Endless, all Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse. This is why the World Forger was able to draw Omega Energy from across the different realities beyond the DC Universe. Even the Speed Force and the Emotional Spectrum have been described at least once as being located beyond the Source Wall. That would make sense considering that Wally West said that the Hands use these forces and other Anti-Crisis based energies to shape Multiverses across the Void.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah WF should have Omega Energy hax too lol
 
KirbyFan03 said:
Goofy was right (I wish i could have met him)
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Goofy was very competent and it's a shame he left, for the second time, but although we shared common ideas on DC cosmology, we also had very different approaches on certain elements, notably the Overvoid and the Great Darkness, and was very argumentative about his ideas.
 
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