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Magic the Gathering, a Wallet gathering game. (Part 1)

Just evaluating the content of this CRT.
 
Admittedly, I'm not exactly a 1-A expert, and there are still concepts over my head. But I supposed to parts where Agnaa reached an agreement are good enough for me.
 
I haven't truly commented on the contents of this CRT (._.)

We had a discussion about a rather side point, rather than about the main brunt of the OP
 
The Archetype discussion did help push the thread forwards since it basically added it into the thread while also having the debate over if it's valid to interpret it as "Archetype" in the scaler sense.
 
DragonZeroNova said:
Bump (1-A spiderman when? I know he probably doesn't scale at all)
Click to expand...
Udlmaster said:
LARRY.jpg
Click to expand...
 
DragonZeroNova said:
Bump (1-A spiderman when? I know he probably doesn't scale at all)
Click to expand...
So uh

Funnily enough, it'd be the opposite. By MtG standards, the entirety of the Marvel comics cosmology would be contained within a single plane, so Peter wouldnt be 1-A

But Spongebob would

5ca0e28c43732ae65b52da4cf6c72900.png
 
WeeklyBattles said:
So uh

Funnily enough, it'd be the opposite. By MtG standards, the entirety of the Marvel comics cosmology would be contained within a single plane, so Peter wouldnt be 1-A

But Spongebob would

5ca0e28c43732ae65b52da4cf6c72900.png
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It's terrible I have this card in real life...

Also I made a reference to all the crossverse stuff in my blog when I started discussing the Multiverse. Just as a quick nod.
 
Udlmaster said:
It's terrible I have this card in real life...

Also I made a reference to all the crossverse stuff in my blog when I started discussing Planes. Just as a quick nod.
Click to expand...
Actually, how do we handle the spider-man set? Because it has an analog of Through The Omenpaths, where Cosmic Spider-Man's analog is an avatar of the Ur-Spider
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Actually, how do we handle the spider-man set? Because it has an analog of Through The Omenpaths, where Cosmic Spider-Man's analog is an avatar of the Ur-Spider
Click to expand...
I'd probably say we should paper over it with the "In-Universe" versions and focus on them since that is the meta-textual fix to the crossverse issues.

So if we were to create profiles, the profile would focus on the "Scion of the Ur-Spider" (more Ur-Spider than its Scion) than Cosmic Spider-Man lol
 
Also something useful about the Ur-Spider is that it's another example of Avatars being Multiversal embodiments, with the arrival of the Ur-Spider being heralded by endless swarms of Spiders emerging across the Multiverse into Planes that didn't have them before, and as we saw with some of the cards, it was a retroactive process too.
 
I've started work on an example profile, I chose Valgavoth since he has a physical avatar and a True form that's a Plane.

Right now, I'm reading up on everything we know about Valgavoth and he currently seems vastly more powerful than Jace and is more than likely stronger than Post-Mending Sorin and Avacyn.

He also may be aware of the Theros and its Gods (based on the Archnemesis card) and seems entirely unimpressed by them (which adds up given he can create Omenpaths)

So at the moment I have him being "At least Low 6-B, likely 4-A | 1-A, Higher over time"
 
Udlmaster said:
I've started work on an example profile, I chose Valgavoth since he has a physical avatar and a True form that's a Plane.

Right now, I'm reading up on everything we know about Valgavoth and he currently seems vastly more powerful than Jace and is more than likely stronger than Post-Mending Sorin and Avacyn.

He also may be aware of the Theros and its Gods (based on the Archnemesis card) and seems entirely unimpressed by them (which adds up given he can create Omenpaths)

So at the moment I have him being "At least Low 6-B, likely 4-A | 1-A, Higher over time"
Click to expand...
Any 1-A smurfs?

And will everything be baseline 1-A at most?
 
Eseseso said:
Any 1-A smurfs?

And will everything be baseline 1-A at most?
Click to expand...
Planes in totality are baseline 1-A, Worldsouls are higher, as they exist independent of the Planes and are seemingly unaffected by their destruction but the reverse isn't true, meaning that the Planes in totality derive their power from Worldsouls and Worldsouls are independent embodiments.

There are some other things I'm considering but by and large, there's not going to be many smurfs, closest being Planeswalker's having 1-A Soul hax resistance (and other additions) due to their Spark.

Also just in case you were wondering if Valgavoth only bonded with the Plane on the Physical level, "Planeshifted Guide to Duskmourn" expands on him, explaining how Duskmourn has 3 Planes, the Physical realm, a realm of spirits and a realm of Demons.

Valgavoth spread throughout the Physical Plane before spreading into the Demon plane and absorbing it and pushing the Spirit realm "to the edges of the plane's boundaries with the Blind Eternities" meaning the totality of it.
 
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Also, something to consider I suppose is if Planeswalkers (generally) are superior to the Cosmogoyf who are between 4-A (Literally made out of a massive nebula and many stars) to Galaxy level (The alternate art for it shows its made up of at least 3 Black holes and has a Galaxy above its head)

Since I was going to add it for another reason why Valgavoth could be 4-A, as he should be superior to the Cosmogoyf and it made me consider if Planeswalkers should also be considered around the same level.

Same with other beings from Edge of Eternities like the Starfield Shepard (Also made up of a massive nebula and dozens of stars)
 
Might have to make a 0.5 revision after this one setting up the baseline for Planeswalkers' abilities, since they're meant to be (even post-mending) some of the most powerful beings in the Multiverse and generally meant to be Multi-Planar threats, so I might have to go through a bunch of the entities in the Planes and see which the Post-Mending Planeswalkers should be.

I generally think Low 6-C is probably too low, especially for Gatewatch Planeswalkers.
 
Udlmaster said:
Might have to make a 0.5 revision after this one setting up the baseline for Planeswalkers' abilities, since they're meant to be (even post-mending) some of the most powerful beings in the Multiverse and generally meant to be Multi-Planar threats, so I might have to go through a bunch of the entities in the Planes and see which the Post-Mending Planeswalkers should be.

I generally think Low 6-C is probably too low, especially for Gatewatch Planeswalkers.
Click to expand...
Theres a comic where Tibalt claims that even the weakest of planeswalkers is capable of generating power comparable to a volcano
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Theres a comic where Tibalt claims that even the weakest of planeswalkers is capable of generating power comparable to a volcano
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm not surprised, since there's obviously a bunch of nameless Planeswalkers by the end of the Mending Era (just before the Omenpath era), we know the main liners (Gatewatch) are definitely much stronger than them since the whole point of them is that they're meant to deal with threats on the level of the Eldrazi again, if they were to show up.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Where would Chandra with ugin's ghostfire scale?

And planes walkers like Ajani and Gideon would be 1-A physically yeah?
Click to expand...
They'd probably get something like "Varies from 4-A up to 1-A" since Planeswalkers can get arbitrarily stronger based on stress, emotions and literally just where they are at a given time.

Like Jace currently collapsing the Multiverse from the Meditation Realm, Chandra using the Leylines of Zendikar to destroy Kozilek and Ulamog, the Elder Spell in general, etc.

Also that Tamiyo may or may not just have access to a spell that's capable, on its own, of sealing away Emrakul.

Nissa is able to talk to and awaken Worldsouls and Davriel was Planeswalkered by a Worldsoul and his power comes from it.

Also just came across this for some added fact that Worldsouls embody/encompass all potentiality too:

"Clever," she said, unable to keep the approval out of her tone. The Ravnican Worldsoul had to encompass all things on Ravnica, all aspects of the plane, and that included the dead. A severed branch wouldn't normally manifest its own ghost, but the potential existed. She'd seen ghost trees in other places, and not all of them had been as functional or as worshipped as Kaldheim's World Tree or Phyrexia's Invasion Tree. They haunted the forests where they'd fallen, making their slow vegetable desires known.
Click to expand...
 
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So, a few things I've found are much more about the Worldsouls:

Worldsouls are the personification of the Plane which embodies and encompasses all aspects and things within a Plane, including its potentiality:
"Clever," she said, unable to keep the approval out of her tone. The Ravnican Worldsoul had to encompass all things on Ravnica, all aspects of the plane, and that included the dead. A severed branch wouldn't normally manifest its own ghost, but the potential existed. She'd seen ghost trees in other places, and not all of them had been as functional or as worshipped as Kaldheim's World Tree or Phyrexia's Invasion Tree. They haunted the forests where they'd fallen, making their slow vegetable desires known.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
The Worldsoul is the Essence of the Plane, the innermost part of it:
Help! Help us! she called out—not with her voice, as her breath was being pressed out of her lungs, but with her mind. She felt herself sink into the ground, past the dirt and the roots, past the bedrock upon which the mountains rested, and still farther down into the innermost parts of the plane where she hoped to find its essence—the Worldsoul.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
It connects all things on the Plane together, a lattice work of life:
Suniel's house was a sculptural masterpiece. Amid the angular bricks and hard edges of Ravnican architecture, the sensuous curves and organic flow of Suniel's home made it seem like something from another world. Suniel had formed his house out of several nearby cedars, bending and calling their material to grow in particular ways pleasing to the eye and to the hand. It was said that Suniel's home was a visual representation of the Lattice of the Worldsoul—the empathic energy that connected all Selesnya—but the woodshaper humbly maintained that he only followed the silent guidance of Mat'Selesnya when creating his works.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
An example of a Worldsoul, Mat'Selesnya, is described as a Collective Unconscious which guided the Selesnians:
Selesnyans believed the Worldsoul was a collective
unconsciousness that guided them toward unity and harmony. Ruzi found it easier to trust in his wolf and the bow in his hand, and to use them if necessary.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
Likewise, it is described as a Unity with which others sought to rejoin:
Each night, Cecilee tried to commune with the Worldsoul. She pleaded
to the communal mind for perfection through unity. And her little community grew a little each day, just like the sapling of the guildtree blossoming in the dusty courtyard. Cecilee promised her followers that someday their roots would stretch across Ravnica and all voices would praise the Worldsoul.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
When communing with Mat'Selesnya, it is stated that they are the source of All life and to which it returns;
"I will root you to the Lattice. As a tree grows from a seed so will you
pull armies from the source of all life. You will populate Selesnya with a sacred host willing to perish so that the greater good may thrive."
"All life returns to the Lattice. Do not covet your own particular life as the ghost dealers would covet a purse of coins. Do not hold back in your sacrifice. Give freely to the whole and spread this message far and wide."
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
An example of manifestations of a Worldsoul and who act on their behalf is the Trostani, one entity with 3 aspects embodying Life, Order and Harmony:
"The current situation is unprecedented." Emmara motioned for them to sit. Ral did, while Hekara wandered over to the window and started trying to pry the weave of branches apart. After a moment, Emmara shrugged and took the seat next to Ral. "Ordinarily, the dryads interpret the will of Mat'Selesnya, the Worldsoul, and guide guild policy, with the Trostani at their head." "It's a triumvirate, yes?" Ral said. "A council of three dryads who rule Selesnya." "Not exactly." Emmara sighed. "It's so hard to explain to outsiders. The Trostani are not three separate beings, but three aspects of the same being, a single entity that moves according to the world spirit's desires. Their three aspects embody Life, Order, and Harmony. Sometimes the needs of one aspect clash with another, but it is never long until they regain consensus."
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
Progenitus, another Worldsoul with a physical avatar is described similarly, that they are the sustainer of life and its origin:
The elves believe that the hydra-god is both the origin and sustainer of life in Naya. But he must remain dormant under the ground. If Progenitus rises again, the world will be consumed under the force of the catastrophic storms he will unleash upon creation. Despite their efforts to placate him, Progenitus is stirring. As the planes begin to merge, blue and black mana seeps back into Naya, and the hydra-god awakens.
The Soul of the World has returned.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
When communing with Progenitus, Mayael explains how there are layers to Planes and sight is merely the thinnest layer and could see into the building blocks of creation:
Mayael was barely out of adolescence when the previous Anima summoned her to the Sacellum, a temple crafted from the living trees of the jungle. Near death, the Anima named Mayael as her successor and told the girl what was required of her before she could lead the elves. To become the Anima, Mayael must undergo a ritual called the Whitecover Gaze. During the ritual, Mayael's eyes would cloud over until they were the color of a pearl—emotionless, inscrutable, and flawless. Sight, the Anima explained, was an imperfect sense that only revealed only the thinnest layer of reality. Soon Mayael would be blessed with enhanced vision. She would be able to see the depth hidden underneath beneath the skin of the world. After the ritual, the very building blocks of creation would be revealed to her.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
Worldsouls are independent of the Planes as explained above, Progenitus once reduced his Plane to Void before recreating it:
In Mayael's vision, Progenitus had become displeased with creation and unleashed five storms to consume it: Wildfire, Earthquake, Windstorm, Flood, and Void. Falling to the ground in supplication, Cylia begged Progenitus not to scour life from the world. Furious at her impudence, Progenitus blinded the young girl and turned his back on her to watch the cleansing of creation.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
The avatars of the Worldsouls are significantly weaker than their true forms, as shown with Progentius who embodies all Mana:
Before, Progenitus embodied and controlled all colors of mana in himself. But in his physical form, the mana splintered, with each head personifying only one color.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
The Avatars of the worldsoul aren't the only type of manifestation they possess, even slumbering within the Plane, Progenitus was capable of creating manifestations of his will:
While Progenitus is dormant, manifestations of him walk the earth in the form of gargantuans—the behemoth creatures that walk the face of Naya. The elves believe the gargantuans are the expression of the hydra's will and worship them as divine beings. As the Anima, Mayael is in charge of discerning the will of Progenitus. After closely monitoring the actions of gargantuans, Mayael interprets what the events mean and then communes with Progenitus to determine what actions should be taken to keep him satiated.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
On Kamigawa, O-Kagachi was the Worldsoul, described as the greatest Kami (conceptual embodiments of every person, idea and object) who maintained the duality of flesh and spirit as well as mortal and god.
In Kamigawa, every person, idea, and object had a kami, and the veil between worlds was no exception. In fact, the kami of the veil was perhaps the greatest kami of all, because without it, there could be no difference between flesh and spirit, between mortal and god. That kami was the Great Old Serpent, the 0-Kagachi.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Saviors of Kamigawa, Player's Guide to Magic the Gathering, pg. 6​
[/td]​
When Konda took "That Which Was Taken" from the Kami realm, it was revealed to be an aspect of O-Kagachi and a potential Worldsoul itself, resulting in O-Kagachi declaring war on Konda, disrupting the veil which began allowing spirits to ignore the difference of Life and Death:
With each spirit that manifested in the material world, the
frayed a little more. After many years of these small breaches, if the nature of the divide between worlds began to change. Mortals began to wield arcane energies that were never accessible to them when the veil was intact. Spirits took shape in ways that seemed to ignore the difference between life and death.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Saviors of Kamigawa, Player's Guide to Magic the Gathering, pg. 6​
[/td]​
Likewise, O-Kagachi is called the Kami of All Things, expanding on how he is the embodiment of all things and ideas:
Within days, two colossal battles raged on Kamigawa’s most hallowed grounds. At Minamo,
Hidetsugu and his yamabushi clashed with the ancestral guardian of the school, the great dragon Keiga. And, at Eiganjo, Yosei stood between the O-Kagachi and the daimyo's fortress. Yosei had little chance against the Great Old Serpent, the kami of all things.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Saviors of Kamigawa, Player's Guide to Magic the Gathering, pg. 3​
[/td]​
Far away from the many eyes of the Kami of All Kami, the ogre-mage Hidetsugu earned his title, ‘'Scourge of Minamo.” With the
guardian Keiga driven off, Hidetsugu and his yamabushi swept through the jushi academy in an orgy of vengeance. Few escaped.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Saviors of Kamigawa, Player's Guide to Magic the Gathering, pg. 3​
[/td]​
As Michiko and Toshiro .
would discover, That Which Was Taken was not just any kami. It was the core and child of the O-Kagachi, the Great Old Serpent, the kami of all things. It was the scion of the first kami.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Betrayers of Kamigawa, Player's Guide, pg. 3​
[/td]​
His actions awoke O-Kagachi, the most ancient kami of all things, the kami of which all kami are only a part. The veil between worlds stretched thin as O-Kagachi trashed wildly in the spirit world, blindly raging at the loss of its child. Even the great myojin could only try to manipulate events to minimize O-Kagachi’s fury, hoping to buy time until someone could relieve Konda of his ill-gotten burden.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Betrayers of Kamigawa, Player's Guide, pg. 3​
[/td]​
Click to expand...
And something that's very exciting; Planes have layers beyond the Physical. On Kamigawa, a Monk transcended the physical world entirely and on Alara, to reach the Worldsoul, there was layers beyond the physical world, stating that "sight" (physical world) was only the thinnest layer:

Realms have multiple layers beyond the material and potential, such as Kamigawa where Erayo was able to transcend the material world:
Erayo (eh-RYE-oh) A soratami woman whose meditations enabled her to transcend the material world.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
[td]
~ Saviors of Kamigawa, Player's Guide to Magic the Gathering, pg. 7​
[/td]​
Another example is Alara, where to commune with the Worldsoul, Mayael had to peel back layers of reality, where sight was only the thinnest layer.
Mayael was barely out of adolescence when the previous Anima summoned her to the Sacellum, a temple crafted from the living trees of the jungle. Near death, the Anima named Mayael as her successor and told the girl what was required of her before she could lead the elves. To become the Anima, Mayael must undergo a ritual called the Whitecover Gaze. During the ritual, Mayael's eyes would cloud over until they were the color of a pearl—emotionless, inscrutable, and flawless. Sight, the Anima explained, was an imperfect sense that only revealed only the thinnest layer of reality. Soon Mayael would be blessed with enhanced vision. She would be able to see the depth hidden underneath beneath the skin of the world. After the ritual, the very building blocks of creation would be revealed to her.
[td width="0.5em"]“[/td] [td width="0.5em"]„[/td]
Click to expand...
 
Correct me if im wrong but didnt Lord Windgrace, an Oldwalker, straight up become the Worldsoul of Urborg?
 
Udlmaster said:
So, a few things I've found are much more about the Worldsouls:


And something that's very exciting; Planes have layers beyond the Physical. On Kamigawa, a Monk transcended the physical world entirely and on Alara, to reach the Worldsoul, there was layers beyond the physical world, stating that "sight" (physical world) was only the thinnest layer:
Click to expand...
Good stuff (though the white letters aren't the best for reading).

Is magic a conceptual force going by these scans?
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Correct me if im wrong but didnt Lord Windgrace, an Oldwalker, straight up become the Worldsoul of Urbog?
Click to expand...
Kinda but not really. He basically became a Kami but a Dominaria version or an Elemental.

Dominaria's worldsoul is Gaea who was very active during the same time, so we know it wasn't retconned.

Urborg is just a local on Dominaria, so he's like the Elementals from Lorwynn
 
Eseseso said:
Is magic a conceptual force going by these scans?
Click to expand...
Yes, Magic is explicitly conceptual, as when you use magic, you're interfacing with the Platonic ideal of which you intend to create, such as a chair or fireball or even person.
Jodah said nothing, and Lim-Dul continued, “When
you cast the spell, you envisioned that which you would create, a perfect ‘chair’ that you were trying to emulate. I have heard, and I believe, that there is an ultimate ‘chair’ somewhere that we both model our thoughts from—one that has the basics of all ‘chair-ness.’ Does this ring any bells?"
Click to expand...
Lim-Dul held up a ring-bedecked hand. “Now, what
about people?” he said quietly. “Pardon?” said Jodah. “People,” repeated Lim-Dul. “Were I to summon, say a warrior, what would I get?” Jodah spoke slowly, quickening only as the realization settled in. “You would . . . get your reflection of a warrior. Or as sage. Is that what you’re saying? That I’m nothing but a magical spell?” Despite himself, he was on his feet again, his reactions those of a young child though his body was that of an older man. Lim-DGl rose as well, resting his knuckles on the table. “You’re almost there,” said Lim-Dul. “But yes, you are a living representation of what you were years ago, summoned by magic into my presence to serve me."
Click to expand...
 
Udlmaster said:
Kinda but not really. He basically became a Kami but a Dominaria version or an Elemental.

Dominaria's worldsoul is Gaea who was very active during the same time, so we know it wasn't retconned.

Urborg is just a local on Dominaria, so he's like the Elementals from Lorwynn
Click to expand...
Ah okay gotcha
 
Apparently, Kami from Kamigawa aren't just entirely conceptual, but also have their own aspects which manifest with them which act as servants.

As with all spirits from the kakuriyo, this one was surrounded
by a cluster of floating facets, minor aspects that attended her like
servants.
Click to expand...
 
Udlmaster said:
Yes, Magic is explicitly conceptual, as when you use magic, you're interfacing with the Platonic ideal of which you intend to create, such as a chair or fireball or even person.
Click to expand...
Well that's more for summoning magic than anything, with summoning interfacing with aether pretty explicitly, and other uses of magic being more elemental, about manipulating colored mana (unless we want to argue that's also conceptual, which there is an argument ig)
Though beyond that all mages can just interact with the aether anyways (which is an issue but I'm not having that discussion again), with blue and red being the most able to
 
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