The Most Racist Tier 0 is a BUM

[Maniaunavailable]

Hop off the thread and wait for Ultima.

I mean tbh, wtf happend to that revision lmao

 

[SuperNova55555]

Cthulhu Mythos Revisions (Part 1.5)

Introduction Eleven months ago, a project to revise the Cthulhu Mythos began. However, after it was accepted and applied, the promised "part 2" never came. While I would like to get started on that, there are a few corrections that must be made regarding the conclusions reached in part 1, and it...

vsbattles.com

Clearly nowhere was this debunked in the OP.

I wonder if you intentionally put “OP” because you knew it would definitely have been addressed in the following comments.

But something that’s also confusing me is that this doesn’t answer what I questioned.

Hop off the thread and wait for Ultima.

This would be for the best, yes

 

[ShinMaximillion]

The glaring contradictions never existed in the first place though? There's no contradictions when we all know the Gate is entirely metaphysical in nature, heck even for regular humans to peer into the Gate drives them to madness since they can't handle the "ultimate reality". I legit don't understand how this isn't 1-A when again, this is the same verse who invented the term "Outerversal" and limiting it to infinite-dimensional is actually the funniest thing I've seen all day. 100% you don't read the scans.

Consequences of always reading literature with the power scaler mindset..... Maybe I should've made it more explicit; the differentiation between a predicate used intensionally, so as to relativise it and a predicate used extensionally that may be applied in an absolute sense. Same mandem who swear "unbroken whole"=Tier 0, even when context says otherwise, besides the predication itself. If all you got from this entire thread was everybody avoiding the word "undimensioned", as if we haven't been recontextualising that, then kudos.

Now conversely speaking, if all you had to say was "oh look, it drives people to madness, it must be 1-A!" and "oh look, it's the verse that motivated the creation of the term Outerversal?? It must still be and has always been Outerversal!". Then congratulations, you have solved a discrepancy that only needed us to know the verse was the reason why Outerversal, and it drives people to madness.

Wow, if only I knew that... Maybe I might actually lean towards agreeing afterall...!!!

 

[ScrollerGNL]

Cthulhu Mythos Revisions (Part 1.5)

Introduction Eleven months ago, a project to revise the Cthulhu Mythos began. However, after it was accepted and applied, the promised "part 2" never came. While I would like to get started on that, there are a few corrections that must be made regarding the conclusions reached in part 1, and it...

vsbattles.com

Clearly nowhere was this debunked in the OP.

Okay bro give him 1-A madness manipulation then and call it a day

 

[Ultima_Reality]

FYI, I took the liberty to compile two lists: One of the statements that seem to describe the Ultimate Void as some sort of spacetime structures, and one of the statements that seem to suggest otherwise. See:

Dimensional Statements​

Ultimate Void is described as "ultimate spacetime seethings" (The Dreams in the Witch-House):

The screaming twilight abysses flashed before him, and he felt himself helpless in the formless grasp of the iridescent bubble-congeries. Ahead raced the small, kaleidoscopic polyhedron, and all through the churning void there was a heightening and acceleration of the vague tonal pattern which seemed to foreshadow some unutterable and unendurable climax. He seemed to know what was coming—the monstrous burst of Walpurgis-rhythm in whose cosmic timbre would be concentrated all the primal, ultimate space-time seethings which lie behind the massed spheres of matter and sometimes break forth in measured reverberations that penetrate faintly to every layer of entity and give hideous significance throughout the worlds to certain dreaded periods.

The Yuggoth Fungi hail from the Ultimate Void and are referred to as "the most marvelous organic things in or beyond all space and time" (Implying there is somehow matter in the Void). In fact, the bulk of the civilization is described as still residing there (The Whisperer in Darkness):

The Outer Beings are perhaps the most marvellous organic things in or beyond all space and time—members of a cosmos-wide race of which all other life-forms are merely degenerate variants. They are more vegetable than animal, if these terms can be applied to the sort of matter composing them, and have a somewhat fungoid structure; though the presence of a chlorophyll-like substance and a very singular nutritive system differentiate them altogether from true cormophytic fungi. Indeed, the type is composed of a form of matter totally alien to our part of space—with electrons having a wholly different vibration-rate. That is why the beings cannot be photographed on the ordinary camera films and plates of our known universe, even though our eyes can see them. With proper knowledge, however, any good chemist could make a photographic emulsion which would record their images.

The genus is unique in its ability to traverse the heatless and airless interstellar void in full corporeal form, and some of its variants cannot do this without mechanical aid or curious surgical transpositions. Only a few species have the ether-resisting wings characteristic of the Vermont variety. Those inhabiting certain remote peaks in the Old World were brought in other ways. Their external resemblance to animal life, and to the sort of structure we understand as material, is a matter of parallel evolution rather than of close kinship. Their brain-capacity exceeds that of any other surviving life-form, although the winged types of our hill country are by no means the most highly developed. Telepathy is their usual means of discourse, though they have rudimentary vocal organs which, after a slight operation (for surgery is an incredibly expert and every-day thing among them), can roughly duplicate the speech of such types of organism as still use speech.

Their main immediate abode is a still undiscovered and almost lightless planet at the very edge of our solar system—beyond Neptune, and the ninth in distance from the sun. It is, as we have inferred, the object mystically hinted at as “Yuggoth” in certain ancient and forbidden writings; and it will soon be the scene of a strange focussing of thought upon our world in an effort to facilitate mental rapport. I would not be surprised if astronomers became sufficiently sensitive to these thought-currents to discover Yuggoth when the Outer Ones wish them to do so. But Yuggoth, of course, is only the stepping-stone. The main body of the beings inhabits strangely organised abysses wholly beyond the utmost reach of any human imagination. The space-time globule which we recognise as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs. And as much of this infinity as any human brain can hold is eventually to be opened up to me, as it has been to not more than fifty other men since the human race has existed.

The Ultimate Void described as the point which the scale of increasingly composite dimensions reaches "up to" (Through the Gates of the Silver Key):

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

Above-Dimensional Statements​

Ultimate Void described as "the space outside dimensions" (Through the Gates of the Silver Key):

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

Ultimate Void described as "where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute" (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

Next morning he was up early, and out through the twisted-boughed apple orchard to the upper timber-lot where the mouth of the Snake-Den lurked black and forbidding amongst grotesque, overnourished oaks. A nameless expectancy was upon him, and he did not even notice the loss of his handkerchief as he fumbled in his blouse pocket to see if the queer Silver Key was safe. He crawled through the dark orifice with tense, adventurous assurance, lighting his way with matches taken from the sitting-room. In another moment he had wriggled through the root-choked fissure at the farther end, and was in the vast, unknown inner grotto whose ultimate rock wall seemed half like a monstrous and consciously shapen pylon. Before that dank, dripping wall he stood silent and awestruck, lighting one match after another as he gazed. Was that stony bulge above the keystone of the imagined arch really a gigantic sculptured hand? Then he drew forth the Silver Key, and made motions and intonations whose source he could only dimly remember. Was anything forgotten? He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute.

Ultimate Void described as without place, time or matter, "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space" (Fungi from Yuggoth):

Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

Ultimate Void described as undimensioned (Fungi from Yuggoth):

I do not know what windings in the waste
Of those strange sea-lanes brought me home once more,
But on my porch I trembled, white with haste
To get inside and bolt the heavy door.
I had the book that told the hidden way
Across the void and through the space-hung screens
That hold the undimensioned worlds at bay,
And keep lost aeons to their own demesnes.

Old Ones, In context the Ultimate Gods, being described as undimensioned (Dunwich Horror):

“Nor is it to be thought,” ran the text as Armitage mentally translated it, “that man is either the oldest or the last of earth’s masters, or that the common bulk of life and substance walks alone. The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men sometimes know Them near, but of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man’s truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath? The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold stones whereon Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and barnacles? Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly. Iä! Shub-Niggurath! As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where man rules now. After summer is winter, and after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.”

Ultimate Void described as "beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time" (Dunwich Horror):

Dr. Armitage, associating what he was reading with what he had heard of Dunwich and its brooding presences, and of Wilbur Whateley and his dim, hideous aura that stretched from a dubious birth to a cloud of probable matricide, felt a wave of fright as tangible as a draught of the tomb’s cold clamminess. The bent, goatish giant before him seemed like the spawn of another planet or dimension; like something only partly of mankind, and linked to black gulfs of essence and entity that stretch like titan phantasms beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time. Presently Wilbur raised his head and began speaking in that strange, resonant fashion which hinted at sound-producing organs unlike the run of mankind’s.

Ultimate Void described as beyond "angled space" (Whisperer in Darkness):

Never was a sane man more dangerously close to the arcana of basic entity—never was an organic brain nearer to utter annihilation in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. I learned whence Cthulhu first came, and why half the great temporary stars of history had flared forth. I guessed—from hints which made even my informant pause timidly—the secret behind the Magellanic Clouds and globular nebulae, and the black truth veiled by the immemorial allegory of Tao. The nature of the Doels was plainly revealed, and I was told the essence (though not the source) of the Hounds of Tindalos. The legend of Yig, Father of Serpents, remained figurative no longer, and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth. It was shocking to have the foulest nightmares of secret myth cleared up in concrete terms whose stark, morbid hatefulness exceeded the boldest hints of ancient and mediaeval mystics. Ineluctably I was led to believe that the first whisperers of these accursed tales must have had discourse with Akeley’s Outer Ones, and perhaps have visited outer cosmic realms as Akeley now proposed visiting them.

Ultimate Void described as shaking off the limitations of "space, time, and natural law" (Whisperer in Darkness):

My own zeal for the unknown flared up to meet his, and I felt myself touched by the contagion of the morbid barrier-breaking. To shake off the maddening and wearying limitations of time and space and natural law—to be linked with the vast outside—to come close to the nighted and abysmal secrets of the infinite and the ultimate—surely such a thing was worth the risk of one’s life, soul, and sanity!

Ambiguous Statements​

The Ultimate Void "outreaches mathematics":

In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.

---

More additions to the above, if I've forgotten any, would be welcome. As it stands, you have 3 descriptions suggesting the Ultimate Void is somehow dimensional (Actually sort of 4, as we'll see), and 7 suggesting otherwise. But we need to weigh those out against the wider context, of course.

First remark: For the part I agree that Tier 0 is not appropriate here, yeah. Specifically because it's clear that Yog-Sothoth and the Ultimate Void are strictly identified in a way where he is obviously not so far above the other Ultimate Gods as to be 0. See the next passage where opening the gate to the Ultimate Void is described as "opening the gates to Yog-Sothoth":

“More space, Willy, more space soon. Yew grows—an’ that grows faster. It’ll be ready to sarve ye soon, boy. Open up the gates to Yog-Sothoth with the long chant that ye’ll find on page 751 of the complete edition, an’ then put a match to the prison. Fire from airth can’t burn it nohaow.”

He was obviously quite mad. After a pause, during which the flock of whippoorwills outside adjusted their cries to the altered tempo while some indications of the strange hill noises came from afar off, he added another sentence or two.

“Feed it reg’lar, Willy, an’ mind the quantity; but dun’t let it grow too fast fer the place, fer ef it busts quarters or gits aout afore ye opens to Yog-Sothoth, it’s all over an’ no use. Only them from beyont kin make it multiply an’ work. . . . Only them, the old uns as wants to come back. . . .”

And the overall statement that "past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth" already posted in the second list of excerpts up there.

Second remark: I think we can safely dismiss the weird suggestion that there are organic beings, much less matter, in the Void, since it's stated over and over to be beyond matter, and the prima facie reading comes out as inconsistent with the other material put forward for the lower end regardless (e.g. The suggestion that the Yuggoth Fungi somehow reside in the Void as they are makes no sense with Through the Gates, where even traveling there entails shifting states of existence to be similar to it).

As for what tier the Ultimate Void actually is: Honestly it realistically just depends on what passages and works you privilege. As is well known, Lovecraft is not really that homogeneous of a setting on account of the fact it was mostly just a guy messing around with a bunch of stories that he expressly didn't consider serious literature, so the verse-wide consistency we'd like there to be just isn't there. In the Dunwich Horror and Fungi from Yuggoth, for instance, the Void is very much 1-A, yes, "beyond all spheres of space and time" (which kills any ambiguity as to what he could mean by "undimensioned" in that particular story), "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space[...] only chaos, without form or place" (Ditto), "beyond angled space," none of which are very adequately expressed by the proper class of dimensional spaces or whatever.

OTOH I do agree that a High 1-B reading of Through the Gates of the Silver Key is pretty plausible, especially with this letter where Lovecraft himself discusses the writing of the story in a draft and says that he envisions the Outer Extension as "an extension of the earth in all dimensions," which, extending the logic, would seem to mean that the Ultimate Void is just all of reality as seen omni-dimensionally.

If you ask for my opinion in particular, I say "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A" is adequate. Not really as a matter of pleasing both sides of the discussion or whatever, but because there are strong reasons to lean towards both when you account for the verse as a whole, as we try to do, and not just TtGotSK in a vacuum, and this bird's eye-view incidentally ends up giving us new ways to account for seeming inconsistencies (e.g. "Ultimate Void is a space-time seething" = "space-time is pre-contained in the Ultimate Void, and it "seethes" because it isn't properly spacetime there, yet", etc). Seems appropriate enough.

 

[Antvasima]

If you ask for my opinion in particular, I say "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A" is adequate. Not really as a matter of pleasing both sides of the discussion or whatever, but because there are strong reasons to lean towards both when you account for the verse as a whole, as we try to do, and not just TtGotSK in a vacuum, and this bird's eye-view incidentally ends up giving us new ways to account for seeming inconsistencies (e.g. "Ultimate Void is a space-time seething" = "space-time is pre-contained in the Ultimate Void, and it "seethes" because it isn't properly spacetime there, yet", etc). Seems appropriate enough.

That seems perfectly good to me as well then. Thank you for helping out.

Which other staff members have responded to this thread?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

That seems perfectly good to me as well then. Thank you for helping out.

Which other staff members have responded to this thread?

I remember Qawsed did.

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234

Are you willing to evaluate Ultima's analysis above please?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Are you willing to evaluate Ultima's analysis above please

They give a pretty detailed reasoning. "A least High 1B, possibly 1-A" is fine with me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you greatly for your help. That seems to have been accepted then.

What statistics should the other Cthulhu Mythor cosmic entities receive based on this?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Thank you greatly for your help. That seems to have been accepted then.

What statistics should the other Cthulhu Mythor cosmic entities receive based on this?

If they're not from The Ultimate Void like say, Noden, my guess is High 1-B solid, at least from what I know of Hypnos. The note there is that Hypnos<<<<<<Rando nameless Ultimate Gods

And of course for anyone not currently tier 1, no changes.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Thank you greatly for your help. That seems to have been accepted then.

What statistics should the other Cthulhu Mythor cosmic entities receive based on this?

Azatoth
Yog satoth
Nyarlatotpeh
Cthulhu, Hastur, Tsathoggua, Cthugha, Ithaqua, Father Dagon, Mother Hydra, and Ghatanotho

The ones who receive the possible 1A are azatoth yog satoth and nyarlatotpeh, the solid H1B are the rest

 

[DaReaperMan]

What proof is there for rando GOOs to be tier 1? Seriously, be honest with me. Those guys are High 6-B RN.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

What proof is there for rando GOOs to be tier 1? Seriously, be honest with me. Those guys are High 6-B RN.

H1B range

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'll write up an AP justification for the ratings later.

 

[DaReaperMan]

H1B range

They already have that range.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

They already have that range.

Shi that’s right verse hasn’t been updated in months, ultima will do the justifications I think

 

[Antvasima]

I'll write up an AP justification for the ratings later.

Thank you greatly for your help.

Do you mean that you will revise all of the actual wiki profile pages, or give instructions here?

 

[SuperNova55555]

I thought Ultima only cared about downgrading Castlevania

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

FYI, I took the liberty to compile two lists: One of the statements that seem to describe the Ultimate Void as some sort of spacetime structures, and one of the statements that seem to suggest otherwise. See:

Dimensional Statements​

Ultimate Void is described as "ultimate spacetime seethings" (The Dreams in the Witch-House):



The Yuggoth Fungi hail from the Ultimate Void and are referred to as "the most marvelous organic things in or beyond all space and time" (Implying there is somehow matter in the Void). In fact, the bulk of the civilization is described as still residing there (The Whisperer in Darkness):



The Ultimate Void described as the point which the scale of increasingly composite dimensions reaches "up to" (Through the Gates of the Silver Key):

Above-Dimensional Statements​

Ultimate Void described as "the space outside dimensions" (Through the Gates of the Silver Key):



Ultimate Void described as "where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute" (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)



Ultimate Void described as without place, time or matter, "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space" (Fungi from Yuggoth):



Ultimate Void described as undimensioned (Fungi from Yuggoth):



Old Ones, In context the Ultimate Gods, being described as undimensioned (Dunwich Horror):



Ultimate Void described as "beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time" (Dunwich Horror):



Ultimate Void described as beyond "angled space" (Whisperer in Darkness):



Ultimate Void described as shaking off the limitations of "space, time, and natural law" (Whisperer in Darkness):

Ambiguous Statements​

The Ultimate Void "outreaches mathematics":

---

More additions to the above, if I've forgotten any, would be welcome. As it stands, you have 3 descriptions suggesting the Ultimate Void is somehow dimensional (Actually sort of 4, as we'll see), and 7 suggesting otherwise. But we need to weigh those out against the wider context, of course.

First remark: For the part I agree that Tier 0 is not appropriate here, yeah. Specifically because it's clear that Yog-Sothoth and the Ultimate Void are strictly identified in a way where he is obviously not so far above the other Ultimate Gods as to be 0. See the next passage where opening the gate to the Ultimate Void is described as "opening the gates to Yog-Sothoth":



And the overall statement that "past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth" already posted in the second list of excerpts up there.

Second remark: I think we can safely dismiss the weird suggestion that there are organic beings, much less matter, in the Void, since it's stated over and over to be beyond matter, and the prima facie reading comes out as inconsistent with the other material put forward for the lower end regardless (e.g. The suggestion that the Yuggoth Fungi somehow reside in the Void as they are makes no sense with Through the Gates, where even traveling there entails shifting states of existence to be similar to it).

As for what tier the Ultimate Void actually is: Honestly it realistically just depends on what passages and works you privilege. As is well known, Lovecraft is not really that homogeneous of a setting on account of the fact it was mostly just a guy messing around with a bunch of stories that he expressly didn't consider serious literature, so the verse-wide consistency we'd like there to be just isn't there. In the Dunwich Horror and Fungi from Yuggoth, for instance, the Void is very much 1-A, yes, "beyond all spheres of space and time" (which kills any ambiguity as to what he could mean by "undimensioned" in that particular story), "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space[...] only chaos, without form or place" (Ditto), "beyond angled space," none of which are very adequately expressed by the proper class of dimensional spaces or whatever.

OTOH I do agree that a High 1-B reading of Through the Gates of the Silver Key is pretty plausible, especially with this letter where Lovecraft himself discusses the writing of the story in a draft and says that he envisions the Outer Extension as "an extension of the earth in all dimensions," which, extending the logic, would seem to mean that the Ultimate Void is just all of reality as seen omni-dimensionally.

If you ask for my opinion in particular, I say "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A" is adequate. Not really as a matter of pleasing both sides of the discussion or whatever, but because there are strong reasons to lean towards both when you account for the verse as a whole, as we try to do, and not just TtGotSK in a vacuum, and this bird's eye-view incidentally ends up giving us new ways to account for seeming inconsistencies (e.g. "Ultimate Void is a space-time seething" = "space-time is pre-contained in the Ultimate Void, and it "seethes" because it isn't properly spacetime there, yet", etc). Seems appropriate enough.

It looks pretty good.

 

[Vietthai96]

If you ask for my opinion in particular, I say "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A" is adequate

Ngl, i think it is Low 1-A, possibly 1-A

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

So, has a definitive conclusion been reached here? From what I can see low 1-A / 1-A quite suitable.

 

[Antvasima]

So, has a definitive conclusion been reached here? From what I can see low 1-A / 1-A quite suitable.

Well, Ultima, Qawsedf, and I support "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A".

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Well, Ultima, Qawsedf, and I support "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A".

Wouldn't a revision process approved by three staff members be considered as originally accepted? If no one objects, I think High 1-B/1-A sounds fair. EDIT: So, who will High 1-B and 1-A be effective on? For which keys?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Wouldn't a revision process approved by three staff members be considered as originally accepted?

Depends on the evaluating staff in the thread if they feel it's conclusive enough. However...

EDIT: So, who will High 1-B and 1-A be effective on? For which keys?

This is the reason it hasn't been closed, along with Ultima saying he will share what the new justification will be for the tiers on the profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

This is the reason it hasn't been closed, along with Ultima saying he will share what the new justification will be for the tiers on the profiles.

Yes.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, Ultima, Qawsedf, and I support "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A".

Sometimes it's so hard being so correct all the time...

 

[Voidnether]

Ngl should be likely 1-A but hey

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

People. The thread being close to concluded does not mean you should come to derail it with nonsense. Specially you, @BoastJr who already almost got warned in this very thread for it.

 

[Okstrike]

Seeing as the CRT has already been accepted by 4 staff members and that I don't want to post an entirely new CRT, I wanted to pitch in a new idea that doesn't conflict with the overall premise of the OP, I believe the gap between dimensions should qualify for 1-A:

After Carter completes the ritual with the silver key inside the snake-cave, he ascends past the first gate, with the "4d" region he found himself in described as beyond the laws of logic that govern Craters reality, operating on more paraconsistent logic; Carter was now neither in the cave nor outside it, the extensions nature was also said to be wholly unfamiliar to Carter and scarcely to be described in words: (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

What happened then is scarcely to be described in words. It is full of those paradoxes, contradictions, and anomalies which have no place in waking life, but which fill our more fantastic dreams, and are taken as matters of course till we return to our narrow, rigid, objective world of limited causation and tri-dimensional logic. As the Hindoo continued his tale, he had difficulty in avoiding what seemed—even more than the notion of a man transferred through the years to boyhood—an air of trivial, puerile extravagance. Mr. Aspinwall, in disgust, gave an apoplectic snort and virtually stopped listening. For the rite of the Silver Key, as practiced by Randolph Carter in that black, haunted cave within a cave, did not prove unavailing. From the first gesture and syllable an aura of strange, awesome mutation was apparent—a sense of incalculable disturbance and confusion in time and space, yet one which held no hint of what we recognise as motion and duration. Imperceptibly, such things as age and location ceased to have any significance whatever. The day before, Randolph Carter had miraculously leaped a gulf of years. Now there was no distinction between boy and man. There was only the entity Randolph Carter, with a certain store of images which had lost all connexion with terrestrial scenes and circumstances of acquisition. A moment before, there had been an inner cave with vague suggestions of a monstrous arch and gigantic sculptured hand on the farther wall. Now there was neither cave nor absence of cave; neither wall nor absence of wall. There was only a flux of impressions not so much visual as cerebral, amidst which the entity that was Randolph Carter experienced perceptions or registrations of all that his mind revolved on, yet without any clear consciousness of the way in which he received them. By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him.

This "4d" region is further said to be ineffable, ungraspable and outside time, given how Carter is an experienced dreamer who'd gone on multiple voyages through the dreamlands (which are also higher dimensional) and had been perfectly capable to perceive "said" higher dimensional realms, it wouldn't make sense for this "4d" realms ineffability to be just because it's higher dimensional, rather it should it's something more fundamental, this is supported by Chandraputra in the previous extract when he says the realm couldn't even be properly described in words, which isn't the case with basic 4d incompressibility: (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time

The Dreamlands (which "would be 4d") lies deeper than all time and space as dreams beyond dreams with the cosmos in perspective of the dreamer being nothing more than a bubble from a jesters pipe that is only to be sucked back into it's source at it's masters whim: (Hypnos)

Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men. The cosmos of our waking knowledge, born from such an universe as a bubble is born from the pipe of a jester, touches it only as such a bubble may touch its sardonic source when sucked back by the jester’s whim. Men of learning suspect it little, and ignore it mostly. Wise men have interpreted dreams, and the gods have laughed. One man with Oriental eyes has said that all time and space are relative, and men have laughed. But even that man with Oriental eyes has done no more than suspect. I had wished and tried to do more than suspect, and my friend had tried and partly succeeded. Then we both tried together, and with exotic drugs courted terrible and forbidden dreams

The cosmos (which "would be 3d") is but a shadow and illusion of an infinitesimal phase to the first gate which is more real and substantial than it (which "would be 4d"), which in turn is held in the same regard to the next gate, this pattern continues for all the gates (which "would be 5d, 6d, 7d...") endlessly up until the reachless heights of infinity: (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

This further supported here, Carter is lead to believe that the dreaming self (which "would be 4d") is more real than the waking self (which "would be 3d") (The Silver Key)

They had chained him down to things that are, and had then explained the workings of those things till mystery had gone out of the world. When he complained, and longed to escape into twilight realms where magic moulded all the little vivid fragments and prized associations of his mind into vistas of breathless expectancy and unquenchable delight, they turned him instead toward the new-found prodigies of science, bidding him find wonder in the atom’s vortex and mystery in the sky’s dimensions. And when he had failed to find these boons in things whose laws are known and measurable, they told him he lacked imagination, and was immature because he preferred dream-illusions to the illusions of our physical creation. So Carter had tried to do as others did, and pretended that the common events and emotions of earthy minds were more important than the fantasies of rare and delicate souls. He did not dissent when they told him that the animal pain of a stuck pig or dyspeptic ploughman in real life is a greater thing than the peerless beauty of Narath with its hundred carven gates and domes of chalcedony, which he dimly remembered from his dreams; and under their guidance he cultivated a painstaking sense of pity and tragedy. Once in a while, though, he could not help seeing how shallow, fickle, and meaningless all human aspirations are, and how emptily our real impulses contrast with those pompous ideals we profess to hold. Then he would have recourse to the polite laughter they had taught him to use against the extravagance and artificiality of dreams; for he saw that the daily life of our world is every inch as extravagant and artificial, and far less worthy of respect because of its poverty in beauty and its silly reluctance to admit its own lack of reason and purpose. In this way he became a kind of humorist, for he did not see that even humour is empty in a mindless universe devoid of any true standard of consistency or inconsistency.

So in short, there is pretty blatant R>F between supposed dimensions in the Mythos, it is to such an extent that the fundamental laws that govern a lower reality such as classical logic, time, space and whatnot cease to hold meaning in the perspective of the higher realm, therefore, Instead of "High 1-B, possibly 1-A" I suggest a ratting of "At least 1-A+, possibly High 1-A" on the premise that the gap between dimensions suffices a 1-A ratting

 

[Hecky2222]

possibly High 1-A

I am interested though could you explain please why it is High 1A?

 

[Okstrike]

Forgive me for taking so long inbtween replies

I am interested though could you explain please why it is High 1A?

Same reason why the staff have said it's possibly 1-A, just tailored for if the dimensional hierarchy was 1-A+, but if you want more elaborate explanation, i've gotchu

The ultimate void exists unreachably beyond all dreams/supposed hierarchy of dimensions, i.e, it exists unreachably beyond a 1-A+ hierarchy: (The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath)

There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep.

the rider strove to turn his disgusting steed, that leering, tittering shantak coursed on impetuous and relentless, flapping its great slippery wings in malignant joy, and headed for those unhallowed pits whither no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion where bubbles and blasphemes at infinity’s centre the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud.

With it being further said that Ultimate Void being is an "ultimate blackness" that obeys laws foreign to that of any conceivable cosmos, which logically should include the hierarchy of dreams/supposed hierarchy of dimensions: (The Dreams in the Witch House)

As he bathed and changed clothes he tried to recall what he had dreamed after the scene in the violet-litten space, but nothing definite would crystallise in his mind. That scene itself must have corresponded to the sealed loft overhead, which had begun to attack his imagination so violently, but later impressions were faint and hazy. There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. Something else had gone on ahead—a larger wisp which now and then condensed into nameless approximations of form—and he thought that their progress had not been in a straight line, but rather along the alien curves and spirals of some ethereal vortex which obeyed laws unknown to the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos.

 

[Livinmeme]

You're right, actually. Silly Shin. He should totally ignore glaring contradictions, to pamper the verse to 1-A.

Yeah, and I guess he should had ignored the constant claims of lack of dimensions and trascendental, and somehow tried to argue that lovecraft negative theology was somehow based on religion

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Seeing as the CRT has already been accepted by 4 staff members and that I don't want to post an entirely new CRT, I wanted to pitch in a new idea that doesn't conflict with the overall premise of the OP, I believe the gap between dimensions should qualify for 1-A:

After Carter completes the ritual with the silver key inside the snake-cave, he ascends past the first gate, with the "4d" region he found himself in described as beyond the laws of logic that govern Craters reality, operating on more paraconsistent logic; Carter was now neither in the cave nor outside it, the extensions nature was also said to be wholly unfamiliar to Carter and scarcely to be described in words: (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

This "4d" region is further said to be ineffable, ungraspable and outside time, given how Carter is an experienced dreamer who'd gone on multiple voyages through the dreamlands (which are also higher dimensional) and had been perfectly capable to perceive "said" higher dimensional realms, it wouldn't make sense for this "4d" realms ineffability to be just because it's higher dimensional, rather it should it's something more fundamental, this is supported by Chandraputra in the previous extract when he says the realm couldn't even be properly described in words, which isn't the case with basic 4d incompressibility: (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

The Dreamlands (which "would be 4d") lies deeper than all time and space as dreams beyond dreams with the cosmos in perspective of the dreamer being nothing more than a bubble from a jesters pipe that is only to be sucked back into it's source at it's masters whim: (Hypnos)

The cosmos (which "would be 3d") is but a shadow and illusion of an infinitesimal phase to the first gate which is more real and substantial than it (which "would be 4d"), which in turn is held in the same regard to the next gate, this pattern continues for all the gates (which "would be 5d, 6d, 7d...") endlessly up until the reachless heights of infinity: (Through the Gates of the Silver Key)

This further supported here, Carter is lead to believe that the dreaming self (which "would be 4d") is more real than the waking self (which "would be 3d") (The Silver Key)

So in short, there is pretty blatant R>F between supposed dimensions in the Mythos, it is to such an extent that the fundamental laws that govern a lower reality such as classical logic, time, space and whatnot cease to hold meaning in the perspective of the higher realm, therefore, Instead of "High 1-B, possibly 1-A" I suggest a ratting of "At least 1-A+, possibly High 1-A" on the premise that the gap between dimensions suffices a 1-A ratting

I wouldn't take the "unreality" ascriptions too literally, really. The idea that the story wants to convey with those terms is that the superficial ("partial") aspect of things is not the full story about them but is embedded in a larger context. For example: The 3-dimensional world is what the ordinary person takes to be the full extent of reality, but it's actually just a small part of a larger, 4-dimensional one, hence in this sense, the partial is "unreal" or "illusion." Likewise I don't think the higher worlds being described as "ineffable" means anything, really. It's just there to convey the alienness of those realms and not as a strict metaphysical statement, that much is clear.

---

Anyhow: Expect those write-ups for the AP justification sometime tomorrow. Late here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks a lot for your help.

Is somebody here willing and able to properly apply Ultima's instructions here?

 

[Maniaunavailable]

I can, I will do it for the void chars, just lemme know when the justifications are up

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks a lot for your help.

Is somebody here willing and able to properly apply Ultima's instructions here?

I can, I will do it for the void chars, just lemme know when the justifications are up

Thank you.

What about you, @SuperNova55555 ?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Thank you.

What about you, @SuperNova55555 ?

I can do it as well yea.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to you as well.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Thanks a lot for your help.

Is somebody here willing and able to properly apply Ultima's instructions here?

I can do it. Just let me know what changes need to be made. I won't do anything extra besides that.