None of the things you brought up suddenly change the statement that Mayuri said
Ofc they donāt change his words, they were never meant to say what you believe they say, that's all.
Again, I am not referring to the fact that Mayuri came to the conclusion that it was quinces, but that specific statement he says. I have told you this countless times already.
And I have told you already you're mixing 2 different things? Heck, I explained all these.
āTo be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows. They are the only ones!ā And it should go without saying that ātheyā is referring to quincies. So he says quincies are the only ones in reference to be capable of erasing the existence of hollows. There is quite literally no arguing against that.
I love how once again, you are ignoring the context and the lines right above that:
Akon asks about the identity of the culprit and mayuri says "Isn't it obvious?" Short pause "To be able to erase the very existence of hollowsā¦" Short Pause "They are the only ones!". Mayuri is clearly replying to Akon's question.
So do you think Mayuri was lying?
No? I simply believe you conveniently ignore context in order to draw wrong conclusions out of Mayuri's words and then act as if that's a debunk to all other shinigami ee in the verse simply because your interpretation of his words contradicts the other canon statements, feats and narrative implications which should already ring some bells and tell you to think again, but it seems it doesn't, for whatever reason.
Technically the only use of it we see in the series is of a captain of the gotei 13.
Tosen is no longer a member of Gotei13 by that time.
But are you claiming it is unreasonable to assume that any other soul reaper has the ability to use haien? Or that Mayuri does not know of the existence of haien?
Or perhaps that they purposely not use that on hollows whatsoever due to them knowing the dangers of erasing hollows?
Then explain how that one matters.
Nah, it's not important how it matters since anyway I decided to quote the anime whose canonicity>the manga when it comes to tybw
Explain it.
Then how is that relevant to the current arguments at all?
It is relevant to the op and these are all arguments that haven't been refuted.
How Mayuri came to the conclusion that it was quincies does not matter to the op or to any of my current arguments, so then whatās the point of bringing it up again and again?
It is relevant to the op(heck, it's one of the most relevant args so far, as it nullifues the main arg of the op) and it's my arg. I appreciate the fact you admit your args(which only try to refute mine, that's how this discussion between you and me started) have no relevance to my arg though.
And explain how that is fallacious.
Because I swear it sometimes feels like youāre playing dumb on purpose. And purposely ignoring the numerous times when I said it, per your own claim that "Nobody's questioning how he came to the conclusion that it was quincies", meanwhile I already did that.
Except Iām not at all. Iām simply taking him by his statement.
Yes, you are. You do it again right now:
He says that to be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows, quincies are the only ones.
Once again, you are ignoring several contextual aspects:
1. Akon's question about the identity, which is what mayuri replies to with "They are the only ones!"
2. The fact that this "To erase the very existence of hollowsā¦" is merely a clue.
They were still not sure about the identity of the culprit despite 28k souls being erased.
It took the equivalent of 28k souls for someone to even take action(which wasn't authorised yet, btw). I swear some people argue without knowing what they argue for and what they argue against
. Btw, speaking of mayuri mobilising squad 12 in order to eliminate those souls,
the original kanji do, once again, translate as erasure( I knew i forgot something when listing those statements and narrative implications) and
the only thing left from those guys were the footprints from where they were gathered. That's basically how he did combat the erasure of 28k souls in wotl, fixing the balance via erasing 28k souls in soul soviety. Would you still say shinigami don't have ee? Also, if you read the scans, you'll see it took the whole squad 12 multiple days to erase so much souls, time that the 3 people in WoTL who should be able to use Haien didn't have. The large number of hollows is another indicative of the culprit being the quincy.
And by destruction, he obviously meant erasure.
It happened in the context, but would you say a hollow being blown up with hado 33, for example, isn't destroyed? The other captains didn't know what he meant trough destruction.
Because they were talking about, you know, the hollows that were erased.
Again, the others didn't know about the hollows being erased when he informed them.
He even mentions the extinguishing of the souls.
1. To extinguishā to erase.
2. Unlike the other sentences where he does take short breaks to let the captains process the information, he doesn't let them time to process this and directly continues saying they must have already realised it's quincy.
I donāt see your point on this.
The point is the form of destruction(erasure or whatever) isn't that much of a relevant clue as the large numbers and the fact it happened in WoTL.
Never does he state that those are the clues required.
But he implies it when he says those and then proceeds to say the captains must have understood that the culprit is the quincy.
Then you can do that on your own time then I guess. But that has nothing to do with the points being made in the OP and the points I am making.
Yes, it has? The op presents an interpretation of Mayuriās statement, I present another one and explain why it's way, way better. And I've been answering all your points so far, the one ignoring my points is you.
Because why would he say ONLY quincies when referring to the ability to erase hollows from existence?
Once again, he doesnāt say only quincy can do that. He says
only quincy can be the culprit. The ability to erase hollows is a different story.
What do you mean? Right before he says āthey are the only onesā he says āto be capable of erasing the very existence of hollowsā.
And right before that, he is asked about the culprit's identity. And even before that, he received all the necessary clues:
mass destruction of hollows in WoTL.
And using your scan, he says āwho else could eradicate the very existence of hollows but themā which wouldnāt make sense if he knew good and well the answer to that. And then in the scan in the op he says āThe only ones capable of removing hollows from existence itself are them and them aloneā. In all of these he says āTheyā are the only ones in reference to the ability to erase hollows from existence.
Due to the many versions of the manga, I decided to quote the anime, which is more canon. The image in the op is the first instance I ever saw mayuriās words translated like this. Which I think is a very bad translation(possibly done on purpose by the translator) considering the word only is part of the last sentence in that scene, in both various manga translations and in the anime.
Whatās your point here?
That
erasure isn't a clue leading only to quincy. However, the 3 clues he gave the captains, "destruction of Hollows", "large numbers" and "in the Worlt of The Living" do mean it's the quincy. The form of destruction alone isn't enough clue to tell it's the quincy.
You 2
Not true. The statement he makes is that quincies are the only ones capable of erasing hollows from existence, and uses that to imply that they are the culprit.
Already adressed this. You want the anime scans?
You are ignoring what he says right before he says āThey are the only onesā he says āto be capable of erasing the very existence of hollowsā
And you are ignoring what he says before those separate lines.
Mayuri never even mentions any of those in his statement.
Why would he mention what he had right infront of his eyes?
He only ever mentions the ability to erase hollows from existence
Wrong. Again, for God's sake, when explaining to the other captains, who knew nothing, he gives them 3 clues and none of them is
erasure, although he mentions destruction.
and then says they are the only ones.
Yes, the only ones for whom all the clues he had apply. The only ones who could be the cluprit.
There is no context I am ignoring. It is you that is ignoring the very statement that Mayuri makes.
Buddy, I literally named the context you ignore and you keep ignoring. And I donāt ignore mayuriās words, I just give a better interpretation
I have been addressing everything you have been saying.
The wiki accepting as ee attacks that leave things behind as long as they eradicate the existence is an example and I literally presented the same scans you did in our debate.
For some reason what I typed was cut off. I meant to say did you ignore the part where he says āto extinguish souls. I'm sure you astute captains have already figured it out by now this rebel army is none other than quinciesā
Look above
I did. I gave literal quotes of what Mayuri was referring to within that scene. You conveniently ignore what he says right before that.
No??? Buddy, I did that and
you ignore what's said right before what you want to argue for
No it doesnāt as outlined throughout the OP and my arguments,
Which I repeatedly refuted, meanwhile now you are just stating the same things you already did, essentially ignoring what I say
And that is blatantly incorrect as I outline above by going over all of the quotes.
It's far better than your interpretation at the very least. Also, I refuted everything you said so far, soā¦
The only clue he mentions in reference to āThey are the only onesā is the ability to erase hollows from existence.
The only clue he mentions in refference to the culprit is indeed the erasure of hollows. But that's because he had every clue needed right infront of him. Why would he repeat everything the screens already told him? And they are the only ones reffers to Akon's question, ot to the erasure thing. Already explained this.
Then, tell me what you didn't understand
Already responded to those
And I already responded to your "answer" in
the same comment you replied to in
your reply I quote right now. It' not the first time you do this, but you really have to stop pretending that if you answer to something that answer is absolute or anything or that your opponent didn't refute your answer. Would you, please, read everything before you start replying?
Was already addressed in the OP
And I adressed all that
and you have yet to even acknowledge all of the arguments against it.
Tell me one argument against soi fon's from the op that I ignored.
And I already adressed your "answer" to them(which was mainly just stating the same wrong interpretation of mayuriās words)
This one is pretty meaningless to this thread.
It still is a clear statement about a shinigami(although an absurdly powerfull one repeatedly stated to have transcended the shinigami race and have unparalleled powers even back in the soul society)erasing the existence of 100k souls
That statement is in reference to the creation of oken
So? It's still ee. One that both Aizen and Yamamoto(who also knows how to create the oken) have. Would you say they donāt have ee?
This presupposes that the arm was erased from existence in the first place
It's literally stated to have happened so and your only arg against it that isnāt based on the misinterpretation of mayuriās words is that we don't see it, which literally supports the erasure thing btw.
When did you reply to the hakai parallel?
Not true. That guidebook statement is contradicted by Mayuriās and by a later guidebook statement.
Already explained several times both these "args".
First, I explained why Mayuriās words don't actually contradict shinigami having ee, they only do it under your one specific interpretation of them. And under that interpretation, they are contradicted by other 10 canon statements, feats and narrative implications, including Mayuri himself erasing rukongai citizens.
Second, I already adressed the Unmasked statement and explained how it is contradicted by both narrative and Luppi's statement.
This was already responded to by saqphire if Iām not mistaken
And I literally told you to read the 3rd page of this thread againā¦ I refuted all that
Can you show me where in those scans Aizen mentions existence erasure?
Now I wonder if you actually read those scans
. Last line before we return to the current situation in Muken.
Logically it should be considering we know multiple kido proficient characters and characters capable of using higher level kido.
The wiki doesn't really treat things this way and I did just link such an example
I adressed this several times already
I never said it wasnāt?
Then, if you argue that's the case just because that's a possibility, congrats, that's your average appeal to possibility.
Disregard the possibility thing then
I'm a bit confused by what you mean hereā¦ Disregard the "possible" part from Aizen's passive ee that you mentioned earlier? Yeah, I do that.
This is a pretty meaningless statement.
No, itās very meaningful. It points out how your interpretation of mayuriās words contradicts several things just as canon as the words themselves, let alone the mere interpretation.
I could say the same thing.
No, you actually couldn't, because none of the things I named is contradicted under my interpretation of mayuriās words. In fact, tell me one contradiction generated by my interpretation of his words.
Good, so you agree with the point. Thatās a start.
The blood drops do not seem to disappear,
You literally see them slowly shrinking although everything is shown far slower than in reality, let alone far far slower than those characters would perceive
and none of that would even matter since thatās anime only
Anime which is made strictly after the manga and with kubo's indications. In the manga we don't see the full erasure process, but the anime does show it, implying this is what Kubo wanted to share. After all, Luppi's statement about grimmjow's arm being actually erased came 6 months after tosen erasing it and the arrancar arc is famous for the large amount of fillers the anime had in order to give kubo time to draw and write more manga chapters which points towards the fact kubo simply told them the arm was erased rather than them learning it from the manga. Either way, we do see the flames engulf the arm instantly in both anime and manga and we see nothing left from it.
That would not be an argument from silence. Because I never claimed that anything was left behind from grimmjows arm.
Ok, so if you're not arguing for it that's fine.
You were the one claiming that nothing was left behind and you failed to provide sufficient proof.
This is called Burden Shifting, the BoP always lies on the person making the affirmative claim that thereās something left behind. My claim is the negation of that claim.
To put it simply for you:
1. You argue his arm was not erased because we don't see it
2. Or you donāt make a point at all here.
It should be slightly more than that but that is still a good amount of people.
Still far from enough to erase all those hollows in such a short time. And again, only 3 of them were in WoTL at that time
This is completely irrelevant. Iām not questioning how Mayuri came to the conclusion that it was quincies.
No, you're not. I am. And you are the one who started this discusiion by replying to me when I brought this up.
Nobody said shinigami can only purify hollows.
The scans from the op used for "narrative intent that only quincy erase hollows" arg do use the parallel between the way shinigami deal with hollows(purrifying them with their zanpaktos) and the way quincy do(erasing them with their arrows) as a reasoning for shinigami somehow being unable to erase hollows. I simply break that parallel.
You said it makes no sense to have a whole kido to do what a regular zanpakuto does. Do you mean purify hollows? Because nobody is claiming thatās what haien does. Do you mean to just defeat hollows in general? Because like all hado can do that.
Read right above.
Were we shown that he was still in the soul cycle?
It's up to you to prove he is if you want to argue he is. If not, you don't argue against him not being removed from the cycle of rebirth and I have no BoP.
But he says quincy arrows can only erase hollows from existence when referring to a question about being removed from the soul cycle. He interchanges removing from the soul cycle with being erased from existence.
Once again, please,
read everything before you start typing a reply. The question clearly says: "Yamamoto was erased by Yhwach" which Kubo debunks. It's a known fact that quincy erasure remove you from cycle of rebirth. Kubo just says yama wasn't removed from cycle of rebirth because he wasn't erased by Yhwach's quincy ee in the first place.
Okay, so would you be under the logic that tosen was the only one capable of using it?
No. I do believe Aizen(whom he likely learnt it from and who also has several ee statements beside his passive aura) and the very few kido users on par with Aizen should be able to use it too.
That is kind of besides the point
No, it isn't, it shows the extremely limited amount of people who would even be able to use a kido in the 50. Lieutenat lvl people are considered to be way beyond any other members of gotei 13 except captains. Then, once again, number of possible haien users doesn't really matter here.
Can you even prove that? That no other ee besides quincy removes from the soul cycle?
You're asking me to prove something I didn't claim. All I said is that the only ee stated to remove you from vycle of rebirth are quincy and ichibe's. If you want to argue other ees also remove you from cycle of rebirth, be my guest.
That wouldnāt make the ee more powerful, that is just how he performs the ee.
Yes, it would make it way more powerfull. Even if someone can resist transmutation, it doesn't mean they can also resist transmutation via reality warping, or cm, for example unless they have feats or statements implying it.
Then you can make your own crt on that
I don't see enough reasons to do so. You can also make your own crt for people being able to use any kido with a number lower than what they've been shown to use.
That's only if Mayuri sends too many souls. What I'm saying is that Mayuri would know the right amount of souls to send to restore balance. In the manga it says they expunge the souls which means to completely erase. In cfyow it says erase aswell.
vsbattles.com
Why do you think I told you to read page 3 again? Saqphire replied with what you just linked, then I answered with
this, to which he answered with
this, to which I replied with
this, which he didn't refute. This is basically the same situation here only that you keep ignoring what I say and keep insisting on your interpretation without providing any proof for why it's valid. Instead, you keep asking me to prove negatives
I never claimed his arm was outside the panel. You are asking me to provide proof for a strawman
You said
it could be this case and kept arguing for it and asking me to prove a negative.
Good, would you be kind enough to read
a bit above that? I swear, you give me the impression you hate reading.
I see, but what I also see is that dankuās ability to block lower level hado is still dependent on the user. So it is not a total counter to haien.
Where is this stated?
Neither of those is a fire type kido except 73 which I already explained why it's placed higher.
But that would still mean it would erase its target regardless of the users proficiency in it or the receivers durability. That would still make it overall way more powerful than if it did rely on ap.
Again, it can be blocked extremely easy. And any relevant(in terms of power) bleach character can use techniques to greatly boost speed on short distances meaning they can easily dodge haien.
And by your logic haien either wouldnāt have erased the sleeve on grimmjows arm or grimmjows arm itself because the sleeve was in the way. You claim nothing was left behind.
And grimmjow's sleeve was directly touching his arm? Don't you know how fire burns? Heck, Grimmjow's sleeve was tight on his arm. Now try placing a piece of paper 10 cm in front of grimmjow's arm, between it and tosen and the arm'd have been unscatched
Not all of them, as even you yourself note
Yeah, all of them except 3 people at the absolute highest estimation of their number
but either way that wouldnāt matter due to the fact that the argument is not based on how Mayuri came to the conclusion that it was quincies, but that he claims only quincies can erase hollows from existence which wouldnāt make sense under the assumption that haien is ee in the first place.
Once again, I am the one questioning the validity of the interpretation in the op and giving a far better interpretation which doesn't contradict anything.
Iām ngl I doubt that. Whenever somebody says this in a debate they usually continue to reply after. Hell, Iām even guilty of this in the past.
Yes, I can see what you mean.
