[Bleach] Shinigami, except Ichibei does NOT have EE buddy 😭💔 (Thread accepted)

[ichimojii]

That's only if Mayuri sends too many souls. What I'm saying is that Mayuri would know the right amount of souls to send to restore balance.

In the manga it says they expunge the souls which means to completely erase. In cfyow it says erase aswell.

 

[Saqphire]

Also for the record I actually agree with everyone that Mayuri would be talking about Ichibei because it would make no sense for him not to include him if they wanted to erase Aizen, that's basically saying that Ichibei is a lazy bum who don't care about his own crew's politics so he is unreliable. What I wasn't sure about was if Mayuri knew about Futen

That's only if Mayuri sends too many souls. What I'm saying is that Mayuri would know the right amount of souls to send to restore balance.

Do you agree with the thread? And can you tag staff such as, I don't know, Lephyr, Qawsed and LordTracer??

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Buddy you tried to say I was arguing for removing everything from the manga, they are arguing for removing a statement that has been cut from the anime which I actually disagree with

I never said YOU were. I stated treating the anime as the end all be all will lead to those conclusions.

Your own OP is using the anime to “debunk” Yamamoto then in the same OP you say Aizen’s regen is supported by Mayuri’s statement which doesn’t exist in the anime.

I’m not the only person that noticed that.

 

[ItsMeat]

Ok, so there is one major problem which I intended to make a crt about but decided to wait till cour 4: the structure of souls. Bleach characters have 2 forms of souls: the konpaku(the one we see) and the tamashi(a deeper form of the soul, which exists regardless of the konpaku). What quincy erase is not only the konpaku, but also the tamashi, hence removing people from the cycle of reincarnation(konpakus are anyway destroyed upon reincarnation from soul society back into world of the living). Thus saying that a form of ee doesn't remove them from the cycle of reincarnation means that's not truly ee is wrong. Quincy ee is just more op. As for tosen erasing grimmjow's arm, this punishment was already chosen by aizen. An additional somewhat supporting fact is Aizen's claim that orihime's power isn't space or time regression, but straight up event rejection when it succeeds to restore grimmjow'a arm.

Anyway, agree with yama downgrade, I lean towards agreeing with you on the mugetsu stuff, agree with aizen keeping his regen intact and ee, disagree with the others.

Edit: forgot to add a link for the tamashi& konpaku stuff. Here

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

Also for the record I actually agree with everyone that Mayuri would be talking about Ichibei because it would make no sense for him not to include him if they wanted to erase Aizen, that's basically saying that Ichibei is a lazy bum who don't care about his own crew's politics so he is unreliable. What I wasn't sure about was if Mayuri knew about Futen

We shouldn’t assume that Mayuri was including Ichibē in the equation of possible executioners, because in his statement he clearly says that no form of execution within the Soul Society can stop the criminals’ hearts. Ichibē’s EE shouldn’t be considered simply because he isn’t a member of the Soul Society, but are in the Royal Palace, which stands above it.

Moreover, it would be impossible to prove that Mayuri was aware of Ichibē’s EE abilities without relying on multiple layers of speculation.

 

[Saqphire]

Ok, so there is one major problem which I intended to make a crt about but decided to wait till cour 4: the structure of souls. Bleach characters have 2 forms of souls: the konpaku(the one we see) and the tamashi(a deeper form of the soul, which exists regardless of the konpaku). What quincy erase is not only the konpaku, but also the tamashi, hence removing people from the cycle of reincarnation(konpakus are anyway destroyed upon reincarnation from soul society back into world of the living). Thus saying that a form of ee doesn't remove them from the cycle of reincarnation means that's not truly ee is wrong. Quincy ee is just more op.

This is actually a good argument. However how do you reconcile with statements implying that SS' cannot actually erase the Tamashi (which grants Konpakus their Reiryoku) from existence with stuff like Mayuri saying only Quincies can erase Hollows from Existence, thus attacks such as Soi Fon's Shikai (who's only successful usage was against a Hollow) wouldn't really erase the Tamashi nor Konpaku of that Hollow ?

As for tosen erasing grimmjow's arm, this punishment was already chosen by aizen. An additional somewhat supporting fact is Aizen's claim that orihime's power isn't space or time regression, but straight up event rejection when it succeeds to restore grimmjow'a arm.

Aizen choosing Grimmjow's punishment and Orihime rejecting the event of Grimmjow's arm being removed doesn't support the interpretation that Tosen erases stuff from existence as Aizen can choose to vaporise Grimm's arm and Orihime can simply reject the event of Grimmjow's arm being vaporised; in fact the reason Grimmjow needed this was because he doesn't have Low-Mid Regen like Ulquiorra does. This also doesn't reconcile with Mayuri's statement, once again.

Anyway, agree with yama downgrade, I lean towards agreeing with you on the mugetsu stuff, agree with aizen keeping his regen, disagree with the others.

Mugetsu stuff was already nerfed in the other thread about Quincy EE as that argument was contingient on that but yeah sure

We shouldn’t assume that Mayuri was including Ichibē in the equation of possible executioners, because in his statement he clearly says that no form of execution within the Soul Society can stop the criminals’ hearts. Ichibē’s EE shouldn’t be considered simply because he isn’t a member of the Soul Society, but are in the Royal Palace, which stands above it.

Wouldn't Squad Zero and Soul Society be within one overarching organisation?? Iirc that was the case

Moreover, it would be impossible to prove that Mayuri was aware of Ichibē’s EE abilities without relying on multiple layers of speculation.

Hencewhy I said I wasnt sure he knew

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

Wouldn't Squad Zero and Soul Society be within one overarching organisation?? Iirc that was the case

No. The Zero Division isn’t part of the Soul Society — they exist outside it, in the Royal Palace, and are concerned only with the Reio, showing no interest in matters that don’t involve him, such as the situation with Aizen. If they truly wanted to get involved, they would have descended just as they did when Yhwach invaded the Soul Society in order to reach the Palace.

 

[ItsMeat]

This is actually a good argument. However how do you reconcile with statements implying that SS' cannot actually erase the Tamashi (which grants Konpakus their Reiryoku) from existence

I don't remember such a statement existing. The closest one I can think of is about mayuri saying you can't stop reiatsu leaking unless you stop the heart.

with stuff like Mayuri saying only Quincies can erase Hollows from Existence,

Edit: i've said some bs, so ima cut it
Mayuri said "to erase such a great number of hollows, they must be quincy", not that only quincy can erase hollows. Also, I am pretty sure he didn't include special abilities. Aizen's ee aura, which you also agree with, for example, wasn't included(ofc, unless you somehow believe grand fisher can touch aizen, ignoring the ee aura).

thus attacks such as Soi Fon's Shikai (who's only successful usage was against a Hollow) wouldn't really erase the Tamashi nor Konpaku of that Hollow ?

Would only erase the konpaku.

Aizen choosing Grimmjow's punishment and Orihime rejecting the event of Grimmjow's arm being removed doesn't support the interpretation that Tosen erases stuff from existence as Aizen can choose to vaporise Grimm's arm and Orihime can simply reject the event of Grimmjow's arm being vaporised; in fact the reason Grimmjow needed this was because he doesn't have Low-Mid Regen like Ulquiorra does. This also doesn't reconcile with Mayuri's statement, once again.

I called it a "somewhat supporting" evidence because spatial regression, for example, should only be able to restore particles that are still existing, thus aizen concluding it is event rejection as it restored something that was entirely erased(so no particle or whatever to simply bring back). Temporal regression is more complicated, but this fact, nonetheless, supports the idea of grimmjow's arm being literally erased and kubo giving us the statement in the second guidebook, masked, that it really is ee, makes even more sense this way.

 

[Hellscream]

Whole bunch of repeated yap

i already sent a message, in the discord with the most notable bleach supporters, including the people that got it accepted no worries.

When?
As soon as you mentioned that ichibei is capable of doing so you countered your own argument lmfao.

Why is Ichibei an exception?
The quote of Mayuri specifically states that ONLY quincies are capable of doing so, Ichibei is not a Quincy, hence invalidating the statement
It's not hard to get

Post the quote of mayuri where it says "Except for Ichibei"

You haven't posted any evidence of Haien being contradicted?
Prove that it doesn't erase the target, despite the databook saying so

Prove that the core mechanics of these abilities change depending on the species it's being used on, i'll wait if there's a difference between a Human, shinigami, or hollow being erased from existence.

My guy lol. South is every person he has killed, that becomes a part of it.
It literally proves that they're removed from the soul cycle, since they should've been reincarnated but they haven't.
in fact, they can, as that's what his ability does, it's irrelevant.

Now stop repeating the same shit over and over

 

[Saqphire]

No. The Zero Division isn’t part of the Soul Society — they exist outside it, in the Royal Palace, and are concerned only with the Reio, showing no interest in matters that don’t involve him, such as the situation with Aizen. If they truly wanted to get involved, they would have descended just as they did when Yhwach invaded the Soul Society in order to reach the Palace.

While Squad Zero themselves know of Aizen's plan as they and him verbatim say it, that would still not change the fact that they are squad zero and not soul society so I guess that is a fair point

I don't remember such a statement existing. The closest one I can think of is about mayuri saying you can't stop reiatsu leaking unless you stop the heart.

I linked one in the OP

Also, I am pretty sure he didn't include special abilities. Aizen's ee aura, which you also agree with, for example, wasn't included(ofc, unless you somehow believe grand fisher can touch aizen, ignoring the ee aura).

Welp, Grand Fisher is a Hollow so...

Would only erase the konpaku.

If it erased his Konpaku, then he would've been gone from the cycle. Tamashi is what grants Konpakus Reiryoku but isn't an independent soul of it's own (hencewhy it's in the konpaku) so Tamashi would be contingient on the existence of a Konpaku

I called it a "somewhat supporting" evidence because spatial regression, for example, should only be able to restore particles that are still existing, thus aizen concluding it is event rejection as it restored something that was entirely erased(so no particle or whatever to simply bring back). Temporal regression is more complicated, but this fact, nonetheless, supports the idea of grimmjow's arm being literally erased and kubo giving us the statement in the second guidebook, masked, that it really is ee, makes even more sense this way.

Aizen directly says it's neither temporal or spatial regression though so those are not even comparable, and he only says that she can limit, reject and deny all phenonema, including damage. This said damage doesn't necessarily have to be EE is my point, especially considering that said Grimmjow doesn't have regeneration other than Low Regeneration with Resureccion from being a Hollow, so he cannot heal from vaporisation or any attack cutting off his limbs

You haven't posted any evidence of Haien being contradicted?

I have. The stuff you said above are either just irrelevant or repeated stuff I already adressed

Prove that it doesn't erase the target, despite the databook saying so

That's not my burden to prove, especially given the fact that it's an extraordinary positive assertion on your end. Your evidence are lackluster and contradictory which is my point

Prove that the core mechanics of these abilities change depending on the species it's being used on, i'll wait if there's a difference between a Human, shinigami, or hollow being erased from existence.

Again, it is your burden to prove that Ichibei's and Aizen's EE would work on EE, something being "intrinsically" the case is not an argument especially if this intrinsic property is directly contradicted

My guy lol. South is every person he has killed, that becomes a part of it.
It literally proves that they're removed from the soul cycle, since they should've been reincarnated but they haven't.
in fact, they can, as that's what his ability does, it's irrelevant.

Again, even if it was a removal of the soul cycle, it isnt a removal via erasure, unlike Ichibei's. It's just forced reincarnation. Therefore the example you presented is a false equivalence.

 

[Saqphire]

Honestly, I am gonna wait for staff to stumble on this thread atp because the argumentation is circular

 

[Hellscream]

it's not circular, you're just in denial, you haven't provided a single proper counter argument.

Your counter argument for Haien is basically assuming it's not logical for them to be capable of erasing their target, despite the databook stating what it does, and you used Mayuri's statement as supportive evidence for that claim, to which i proved that the statement of mayuri is bullshit and doesn't hold any credit, due to it being contradicted in the series.

I could not care less about your personal beliefs, i do care however what tosen showed, when he used the kido, along with what the databooks state.


It's not something i have to prove lol, it's been blatantly potrayed with every single use of abilities in the series.
every being in bleach possesses reishi, and the powers / abilities in bleach all stem forth from reishi, which is the fueling source in the exact same way, more reishi = more reiatsu = stronger abilities physicals etc etc.

Reiatsu crush affects every being equally, kurohitsugi affects every being just the same. beings of a different species does not change the mechanics or effects of said ability, hence why existence erasure will work nonetheless.

unless if you can prove that hollows are resistant towards EE in general, we can absolutely assume that it would work, due to the nature of abilities in bleach itself
because as i stated prior stronger reiatsu = stronger abilities.

it's on you to prove that it wouldn't work, since that's essentially what you're claiming.

It's not "if" it is, i just explained to you why, it's not "forced reincarnation" it literally utilizes the remains of the ones he has slain.
the cycle of souls, is essentially just souls that are reborn / reincarnated, they are not being reincarnated after being slain by yamamoto, that's all there is to it.

 

[ItsMeat]

I linked one in the OP

I fail to see it tbh. Anyway, what if soul society doesn't erase the tamashi? This is literally supporting the quincy thing

Welp, Grand Fisher is a Hollow so...

So...what?

If it erased his Konpaku, then he would've been gone from the cycle.Tamashi is what grants Konpakus Reiryoku but isn't an independent soul of it's own (hencewhy it's in the konpaku) so Tamashi would be contingient on the existence of a Konpaku

Tamashi exists on a deeper level. Konpaku are lost anyway upon death in soul society when it returns to the ground and the tamashi just obtains a new konpaku as the process of reincarnation goes on.

Aizen directly says it's neither temporal or spatial regression though so those are not even comparable, and he only says that she can limit, reject and deny all phenonema, including damage.

Yes, this is kinda what I said. Tho, he doesn't say spatial&temporal regression aren't even comparable with each other.

This said damage doesn't necessarily have to be EE is my point, especially considering that said Grimmjow doesn't have regeneration other than Low Regeneration with Resureccion from being a Hollow, so he cannot heal from vaporisation or any attack cutting off his limbs

What does grimmjow's regen have to do with anything here? If he had better regen, orihime wouldn't have had to use her ability on him. You're not adressing what I said at all. Spatial regression wouldn't be able to restore things that don't exist anymore, such as the particles from his arm. Thus, aizen concluding it is something beyond that supports the fact it was really erased.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This is just argument from repetition, which I already adressed why "without a trace" doesn't mean EE. Ash disappearing =/= EE because atomisation also removes ash.

Show me where the scan states atomisation like you claim. Otherwise burden of proof falls on you

The OP adresses how the cycle is the necessary part for erasure, and none of those abilities are shown to erase from the cycle

Headcanon from your end. Soul Reapers and Hollows existed even before SS and HM was formed.
So there is zero relationship between them only possession power for purification. .

Wrong. Mayuri was simply called into questioning because he killed (not erased) people without permission for the purpose of soul balancing. If he erased those souls from existence, those souls wouldnt be present for the balancing

Dude if hollows are erased only way of balancing is erasing equal number of souls from soul society. Also killed here means erased since killing them only turn them to soil of SS So imbalance would be still there. Stop making your own narrative.

 

[Loyd]

Meaning that non-hollows getting tagged by heilig pheils dont get erased because they dont get erased from the cycle. Kubo's answer would be completely incoherent otherwise

What in the made up headcannon? again how does this disprove my point?

Yeah and? Bleach's fundamental premise with Souls overall forbids souls having physical bodies that aren't konpakus (which shinigamis dont have in soul society), that contradicts so much stuff it's crazy. With that, souls being erased means the soul cannot be there to go back to the cycle therefore the only erasure that's even possible without contradictions would be erasing via the cycle

You do know Shinigami souls are inhabited inside a reishi spirit body right? the one im referring to not an actual physical body. So abilities like Haien can still erase that letting the actual soul wonder on.

In the manga it says they expunge the souls which means to completely erase. In cfyow it says erase aswell.

yea i just checked that scan in my google play books CFYOW VOL.3 so most of the ops arguments are moot.

Also regarding Ichibei lowkey don't think he should be used as an example, Squad Zero is above soul society station and doesn't interfere with its affairs, personally i don't see Ichibei coming down to test Futen to see if it will work on every immortal prisoner before deciding to throw them in muken

 

[ichimojii]

The hogyoku warps reality and events so aizens regeneration should be based around that since he's fused with the hogyoku. Aizen's says the hogyoku replaced his soul. Which means it basically rewrote his existence even converting him into pure energy during his 2nd fusion. Kisuke also couldn't destroy a lesser version of the hogyoku no matter what he did.

 

[ItsMeat]

The hogyoku warps reality and events so aizens regeneration should be based around that since he's fused with the hogyoku. Aizen's says the hogyoku replaced his soul. Which means it basically rewrote his existence even converting him into pure energy during his 2nd fusion. Kisuke also couldn't destroy a lesser version of the hogyoku no matter what he did.

Good point, this gets overlooked so much

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Damn everyone ganging up on OP

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Not me tho

 

[GTsek]

I agree with everything. Regarding Aizen's regeneration, I always thought Mayuri's statement was due to Aizen's reiatsu, because he erases anything that comes near him, right? And he can even nullify other techniques with his reiatsu, like he did with Soi Fong, so I always thought that nobody could kill him because his enormous reiatsu nullifies/erases everything that comes near him.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Why is Ichibei is being used to justify Aizen’s regeneration. Squad Zero won’t get involved with Soul Society’s matters, so it’s very unlikely that Ichibei came down to Muken to test his super special ability on Aizen.

 

[Hellscream]

I agree with everything. Regarding Aizen's regeneration, I always thought Mayuri's statement was due to Aizen's reiatsu, because he erases anything that comes near him, right? And he can even nullify other techniques with his reiatsu, like he did with Soi Fong, so I always thought that nobody could kill him because his enormous reiatsu nullifies/erases everything that comes near him.

headcanon final boss:

 

[Hellscream]

Why is Ichibei is being used to justify Aizen’s regeneration. Squad Zero won’t get involved with Soul Society’s matters, so it’s very unlikely that Ichibei came down to Muken to test his super special ability on Aizen.

You realize ichibei wasn't the only thing in the blog, correct?

But even then, i doubt ichibei was not aware of how much of a threat Aizen was

Also they did in fact get involved with soul society's matters during the TYBW lol

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Also they did in fact get involved with soul society's matters during the TYBW lol

I wonder why!

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I wonder why!

Because Soul King's replacement was causing havoc that's why

 

[GTsek]

headcanon final boss:

It's far more plausible than arguing that Ichibei has to be taken into consideration. Aizen can erase anything that approaches him, and he nullifies techniques with his reiatsu, Even if we consider that shinigami possess the ability to erase the existence of things, In addition to being erased when touching Aizen, their techniques would also be nullified. No one in the Soul Society possesses enough reiatsu to bypass Aizen's nullification.

 

[Hellscream]

It's far more plausible than arguing that Ichibei has to be taken into consideration. Aizen can erase anything that approaches him, and he nullifies techniques with his reiatsu, Even if we consider that shinigami possess the ability to erase the existence of things, In addition to being erased when touching Aizen, their techniques would also be nullified. No one in the Soul Society possesses enough reiatsu to bypass Aizen's nullification.

lol no

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Why is Ichibei is being used to justify Aizen’s regeneration. Squad Zero won’t get involved with Soul Society’s matters, so it’s very unlikely that Ichibei came down to Muken to test his super special ability on Aizen.

While Squad 0 probably didn't come down to the Soul Society for Aizen, there is precedent for them intervening if a situation grows too out of control like in Bleach: Spirits are Forever with You (someone correct me if I am wrong here).

 

[ItsMeat]

Why is Ichibei is being used to justify Aizen’s regeneration. Squad Zero won’t get involved with Soul Society’s matters, so it’s very unlikely that Ichibei came down to Muken to test his super special ability on Aizen.

Tbf, squad 0 itself considered Aizen dangerous enough to call him "evil personified".

It's far more plausible than arguing that Ichibei has to be taken into consideration. Aizen can erase anything that approaches him,

Black Mausoleum's shrine was pretty far away from yhwach when Ichibe used it, no reason to believe it needs to get close or whatever lol.

and he nullifies techniques with his reiatsu, Even if we consider that shinigami possess the ability to erase the existence of things, In addition to being erased when touching Aizen, their techniques would also be nullified. No one in the Soul Society possesses enough reiatsu to bypass Aizen's nullification.

Has no feats of being able to nullify ichibei's techniques + back when he was sentenced to muken, he was far weaker than ichibe, so no technique negation for a while. Even during the events of SAFWY, Urozakuro implies Azashiro could beat Aizen and take the Hōgyoku from him, meanwhile Azashiro surrendered and accepted imprisonment especially because he feared squad 0, as they were coming down to stop him(this also shows they do try to get rid of huge threats).

 

[ItsMeat]

While Squad 0 probably didn't come down to the Soul Society for Aizen, there is precedent for them intervening if a situation grows too out of control like in Bleach: Spirits are Forever with You (someone correct me if I am wrong here).

You are 100% right, they are the reason Azashiro surrendered and became a muken prisoner

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

You are 100% right, they are the reason Azashiro surrendered and became a muken prisoner

Cool. It's pretty likely Mayuri knows about Ichibe's abilities then.

 

[Deceived3596]

It's been a while since I posted my comment, and a ton of debate has occurred in my absence. After reviewing both the claims made by the OP and the arguments made against and for these assertions, I have reached a conclusion on where I agree and disagree. Since there are a lot of points to address, I will explain my total conclusion by addressing each individual point in separation.

Yamamoto:
This is without a doubt the most contentiously debated assertion in this thread; it's definitely the most sited, at least.

Without further fueling the fire that is this heated debate, I will simply say I am fine with it being removed. After reviewing the statement again, and seeing how the Anime depicts it, which does take precedent over the depiction in the Manga as accepted in a prior thread, I think it's a reasonable, logical conclusion to reach that East probably isn't erasing things, despite the statement having a possible, derivable interpretation.

Personally, after seeing the statement again, I see a stronger argument for a massive AP boost with it (like, beyond a Blut amplification). If this is removed, I might delve into the text and see if a valid argument can be made from it. If I can make one, I'll probably drop a thread on it in the future.

Haien:
This is a more debatable topic, in my opinion, as Haien, while being described as "reducing an enemy to ashes, leaving nothing behind" (paraphrasing). It doesn't necessarily mean the conclusive result of the technique is mere incineration. Analyzing the statement in a vacuum: "reducing an enemy to ashes" could grammatically indicate a separate consequence to "leaving nothing behind." It can be argued that initially, the technique incinerates the opponent, however; it proceeds to eradicate those left-over particles from existence, which would grammatically follow as a comma separates clauses in a sentence. This could just be a separate action that proceeds after the prior action of incineration. Now, it's very debatable since it's based on an interpretation of the language, but I think it's a logically-sound argument that can be proposed.

The Mayuri statement probably lessens the probability of the prior argument I gave, to be fair. It seems pretty blatant that Mayuri, who is exceptionally knowledgeable on both the capacities of Quincy and Shinigami, seemingly believes that only Quincies are capable of eradicating Hollows from Existence. We do know that Ichibe is a notable exception to the statement, and is brought up as a possible counter-example to Mayuri's statement encompassing all Shinigami.

Personally, I don't think that argument holds. Ichibe is not only a non-presence in the Soul Society, so assuming the statement necessarily include him would be faulty as it's a statement contextualized around an ongoing massacre against Hollows, and Quincies are the only race who does this in-mass. Ichibe also isn't simply able to do this without requiring a great deal of effort and preparation. The ability that causes the erasure is his ultimate technique; it requires him stealing several decades worth of future time to achieve. Now, I don't believe Ichibe is merely erasing someone like a Quincy does, I personally affirm it's Conceptual in nature, so it's affecting a being to a way more fundamental degree than a simple Quincy Heilig Pfeil could reasonably cause. But regardless of that, I don't think it's correct to account for Ichibe in the statement, as a defeater to it, as I laid out above.

I believe other arguments can be made to contextualize the statement in a different way that doesn't necessitate Haien not being Existence Erasure. But I don't currently believe they would be more probable compared to the simple interpretation of Mayuri stating that, normally, Quincies are the only beings capable of eradicating Hollows. It doesn't require a whole heap of assumptions; the statement grammatically indicates it. It would also make sense to the cosmology of Bleach; Quincies were specifically targeted because they erase Hollows from the Soul Cycle, resulting in cosmological collapse.

So, without someone else proposing another plausible interpretation, I am fine with removing Existence Erasure from Haien.

Sui-Feng:
Now, this is the one I am very mixed about, personally, but it doesn't require a long set of paragraphs for me to explain my stance on this one.

I believe this is definitely the most debatable out of everything here. We don't have any statements regarding how Nigeki Kessatsu actually functions, so it's ambiguous either way; it's visualized in a way that could indicate Existence Erasure as the opponent is completely swallowed by the pattern created by the technique, and it leaves nothing visually-apparent behind after it dissipates; finally, Tokinada describes the technique as making people "disappear without a trace." It all aligns well with an interpretation of it being Existence Erasure.

I just can't fully commit myself in agreeing with it as an indexed ability, as I would have to account for the Mayuri statement, and I don't currently believe there is a substantive and equally rationale way to interpret it differently. Until I or someone else proposes a different explanation, that I am convinced by, I can't say we should categorize this as Existence Erasure. So, I am fine with it being removed and left bare until a more conclusive idea of what the ability does is given.

Conclusion:
Basically, I am fine with removing all three. I may personally disagree with some claims made here, but that doesn't influence my final decision; I recognize that my personal thoughts don't necessarily have to coincide with what should be indexed on the site. If a sound argument is made, and it falls more in-line with what is more preferable to the site, and to the context, I am fine with deferring to that.

So, yeah, that's all.

 

[Saqphire]

-snip-

Thank you for your very thorough evaluation. I can understand all the disagreements you personally have with some claims here and there but as you said, this doesn't ultimately affect the conclusion that we both agree with.

And honestly, I haven't seen any new angle that would make indexing EE compatible with said abilities I am adressing without undermining Kubo or the narrative so yeah. I really wish staff took a look at this though

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I personally believe these specific instances are dependent on your personal interpretation of the scenes, context, and understanding of the Wiki's definition of Existence Erasure:

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind.

With the definition in mind, I don't see how the abilities would be classified as Existence Erasure because they meet the necessary standards:

1) We have a statement declaring these abilities "vanish things without a trace".

• Haien has the databook statements saying it eradicates the existence of the target.
• Suzembachi has the CFYOW statement of disappearing things without a trace.
• Yama made the statement for his own Bankai erasing without a trace.

2) We have visuals for all of them that support these claims.

• Haien erasing Grimmjow's arm.
• Suzembachi erasing Benin in the canon Memories of Nobody movie.
• Yamamoto erasing things his Bankai touches.

At absolute best, you could argue the hyperbolic route, but it's not a strong enough stance on it's own when visuals and statements align. Yamamoto's could be a Possibly since the anime changed the visuals and did have residue occur unlike the manga. With the anime now taking precedence, I can see this being in contention, but really only this one.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

At absolute best, you could argue the hyperbolic route, but it's not a strong enough stance on it's own when visuals and statements align. Yamamoto's could be a Possibly since the anime changed the visuals and did have residue occur unlike the manga. With the anime now taking precedence, I can see this being in contention, but really only this one.

You’ll have a superficial statement about erasing someone with no support for the deeper and most literal interpretation of it in a manga filled to the brim with hyperbolic statements but apparently it’s actually the opposition that doesn’t have a strong argument, visuals alone confirm everything? no need for actual evidence that separates exaggerative from literal? seemingly erasure scenes can be written as erasure in literature so having visuals showing us "seeming erasure" does nothing for the argument lol

If it takes the most explicit contradictions for you to be convinced otherwise instead of the severe lack of affirmative evidence in the first place maybe it’s the standard for what qualifies as evidence to blame and look at
The fact that Yamamoto says this is erasure for something that isn’t literal erasure already tells you the story doesn’t try to sell these kinds of statements as hyper literal so idk why we would have any reason to take the others and give them the blanket charitable assumption

 

[ichimojii]

You’ll have a superficial statement about erasing someone with no support for the deeper and most literal interpretation of it in a manga filled to the brim with hyperbolic statements but apparently it’s actually the opposition that doesn’t have a strong argument, visuals alone confirm everything? no need for actual evidence that separates exaggerative from literal? seemingly erasure scenes can be written as erasure in literature so having visuals showing us "seeming erasure" does nothing for the argument lol

If it takes the most explicit contradictions for you to be convinced otherwise instead of the severe lack of affirmative evidence in the first place maybe it’s the standard for what qualifies as evidence to blame and look at
The fact that Yamamoto says this is erasure for something that isn’t literal erasure already tells you the story doesn’t try to sell these kinds of statements as hyper literal so idk why we would have any reason to take the others and give them the blanket charitable assumption

It's consistently stated yamamoto has erasure in the anime "key word" and databook

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's consistently stated yamamoto has erasure in the anime "key word" and databook

saying it a buncha times doesn't suddenly change the tone and meaning behind it lol, do these other statements go more into depth? have implications similar to the quincy EE? if it's the same as the previous then it does not really help change much

 

[ichimojii]

It's been a while since I posted my comment, and a ton of debate has occurred in my absence. After reviewing both the claims made by the OP and the arguments made against and for these assertions, I have reached a conclusion on where I agree and disagree. Since there are a lot of points to address, I will explain my total conclusion by addressing each individual point in separation.

Yamamoto:
This is without a doubt the most contentiously debated assertion in this thread; it's definitely the most sited, at least.

Without further fueling the fire that is this heated debate, I will simply say I am fine with it being removed. After reviewing the statement again, and seeing how the Anime depicts it, which does take precedent over the depiction in the Manga as accepted in a prior thread, I think it's a reasonable, logical conclusion to reach that East probably isn't erasing things, despite the statement having a possible, derivable interpretation.

Personally, after seeing the statement again, I see a stronger argument for a massive AP boost with it (like, beyond a Blut amplification). If this is removed, I might delve into the text and see if a valid argument can be made from it. If I can make one, I'll probably drop a thread on it in the future.

Haien:
This is a more debatable topic, in my opinion, as Haien, while being described as "reducing an enemy to ashes, leaving nothing behind" (paraphrasing). It doesn't necessarily mean the conclusive result of the technique is mere incineration. Analyzing the statement in a vacuum: "reducing an enemy to ashes" could grammatically indicate a separate consequence to "leaving nothing behind." It can be argued that initially, the technique incinerates the opponent, however; it proceeds to eradicate those left-over particles from existence, which would grammatically follow as a comma separates clauses in a sentence. This could just be a separate action that proceeds after the prior action of incineration. Now, it's very debatable since it's based on an interpretation of the language, but I think it's a logically-sound argument that can be proposed.

The Mayuri statement probably lessens the probability of the prior argument I gave, to be fair. It seems pretty blatant that Mayuri, who is exceptionally knowledgeable on both the capacities of Quincy and Shinigami, seemingly believes that only Quincies are capable of eradicating Hollows from Existence. We do know that Ichibe is a notable exception to the statement, and is brought up as a possible counter-example to Mayuri's statement encompassing all Shinigami.

Personally, I don't think that argument holds. Ichibe is not only a non-presence in the Soul Society, so assuming the statement necessarily include him would be faulty as it's a statement contextualized around an ongoing massacre against Hollows, and Quincies are the only race who does this in-mass. Ichibe also isn't simply able to do this without requiring a great deal of effort and preparation. The ability that causes the erasure is his ultimate technique; it requires him stealing several decades worth of future time to achieve. Now, I don't believe Ichibe is merely erasing someone like a Quincy does, I personally affirm it's Conceptual in nature, so it's affecting a being to a way more fundamental degree than a simple Quincy Heilig Pfeil could reasonably cause. But regardless of that, I don't think it's correct to account for Ichibe in the statement, as a defeater to it, as I laid out above.

I believe other arguments can be made to contextualize the statement in a different way that doesn't necessitate Haien not being Existence Erasure. But I don't currently believe they would be more probable compared to the simple interpretation of Mayuri stating that, normally, Quincies are the only beings capable of eradicating Hollows. It doesn't require a whole heap of assumptions; the statement grammatically indicates it. It would also make sense to the cosmology of Bleach; Quincies were specifically targeted because they erase Hollows from the Soul Cycle, resulting in cosmological collapse.

So, without someone else proposing another plausible interpretation, I am fine with removing Existence Erasure from Haien.

Sui-Feng:
Now, this is the one I am very mixed about, personally, but it doesn't require a long set of paragraphs for me to explain my stance on this one.

I believe this is definitely the most debatable out of everything here. We don't have any statements regarding how Nigeki Kessatsu actually functions, so it's ambiguous either way; it's visualized in a way that could indicate Existence Erasure as the opponent is completely swallowed by the pattern created by the technique, and it leaves nothing visually-apparent behind after it dissipates; finally, Tokinada describes the technique as making people "disappear without a trace." It all aligns well with an interpretation of it being Existence Erasure.

I just can't fully commit myself in agreeing with it as an indexed ability, as I would have to account for the Mayuri statement, and I don't currently believe there is a substantive and equally rationale way to interpret it differently. Until I or someone else proposes a different explanation, that I am convinced by, I can't say we should categorize this as Existence Erasure. So, I am fine with it being removed and left bare until a more conclusive idea of what the ability does is given.

Conclusion:
Basically, I am fine with removing all three. I may personally disagree with some claims made here, but that doesn't influence my final decision; I recognize that my personal thoughts don't necessarily have to coincide with what should be indexed on the site. If a sound argument is made, and it falls more in-line with what is more preferable to the site, and to the context, I am fine with deferring to that.

So, yeah, that's all.

Being in direct contact with his blade is eraser so the fragments we see left is caused by the residual heat. We see royd attack him in directly in the anime and his blade disappears. The anime key word says it erases and the databook.

Yea but mayuri also says soul reapers erased 28,000 human souls. Hollows would probably have more resistance or require unique methods. Mayuri also isn't aware of yamamoto's current bankai and that it can erase even yhwach wasnt aware

 

[ichimojii]

saying it a buncha times doesn't suddenly change the tone and meaning behind it lol, do these other statements go more into depth? have implications similar to the quincy EE? if it's the same as the previous then it does not really help change much

it just says it blows anything it touches without a trace and we also have yamamato erasing yhwach's sword. I personally dont see why it faces this much scrutiny when tso has eraser despite it leaving behind fragments when it hits the ground and when it hits Edo tensei

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You’ll have a superficial statement about erasing someone with no support for the deeper and most literal interpretation of it in a manga filled to the brim with hyperbolic statements but apparently it’s actually the opposition that doesn’t have a strong argument, visuals alone confirm everything? no need for actual evidence that separates exaggerative from literal? seemingly erasure scenes can be written as erasure in literature so having visuals showing us "seeming erasure" does nothing for the argument lol

You need to prove that, the crux of your opposition is based on the statements being hyperbolic.

Prove that then, for we have statements of description that satisfy the definition of Existence Erasure along with visual depictions showing an effect of targets being "erased".

So prove it is hyperbolic by either the statements being wrong or the visuals being incorrect.