[Bleach] Revising Quincy EE (Can be Closed)

[Ghostimuscrime]

What would happen to Aizens regen if the crux of it isn’t valid anymore

 

[Damage3245]

What would happen to Aizens regen if the crux of it isn’t valid anymore

Aizen would go down from Mid-Godly to Low-Godly or High, I believe.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Aizen would go down from Mid-Godly to Low-Godly or High, I believe.

The mid godly comes from mind soul shenanigans which aren’t invalidated, there’s no low godly for bleach characters cuz if you comeback from total erasure you’d skip low godly and jump straight into mid godly (they used to be low godly on profiles until the physiology buff came in)


If the EE aspect is entirely deemed invalid we could give him high mid since that’s what he actually shows on screen

High-Mid: The ability to regenerate from being blown/cut to pieces, brain included, or from a small piece of the user's body, such as a finger, or the heart.

 

[Saqphire]

Both Conditional and Limited seem best.

How many votes does it take for a P&A CRT to be accepted? If it's still 3+, can you tag some mods/admins?

 

[Saqphire]

What would happen to Aizens regen if the crux of it isn’t valid anymore

The main args simply become that he has mid godly because Mayuri says nothing in SS can permanently nuke him, and SS has mind/soul EE hax of their own + the other argument that Aizen regenned to his Chrysialis form from getting hit by his own Reiatsu which can mind/soul EE ppl

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

How many votes does it take for a P&A CRT to be accepted? If it's still 3+, can you tag some mods/admins?

you'll need 3 bare minnimum

The main args simply become that he has mid godly because Mayuri says nothing in SS can permanently nuke him, and SS has mind/soul EE hax of their own + the other argument that Aizen regenned to his Chrysialis form from getting hit by his own Reiatsu which can mind/soul EE ppl

Would you kindly mind elaborating on them? I do think there's a basis for them having broken destruction and by extension aizen needing to have equivalent regenerative powers to not get killed but don't know if those are erasure in the most literal sense

 

[Apotheosis69]

The thing with hollows is that they are not really corrupted beings, they didn't go throught any changes, they are just a evil? spiritual species that has always existed like the others species, its just that for some reason ( a byprobuct of Adnyeus separating existence ) the soul of the dead people started to turn into hollow once they stay too much time in the living world.

Well. Hollows are Souls/Pluses when their Chain of Fate has been destroyed. And given how their Reiryoku, which is their very being, corrupts others. I don't rly see how it can be any other than a Corrupted Soul, especially when Hollowfication is a thing in-series.

And Idk if this is just me, but I think Hollows being "evil", is more of just a philosophical inquiry/perspective, rather than a literal ontological existence. They aren't actual Evil itself

 

[Saqphire]

Would you kindly mind elaborating on them? I do think there's a basis for them having broken destruction and by extension aizen needing to have equivalent regenerative powers to not get killed but don't know if those are erasure in the most literal sense

Sure.

Mayuri​

1. We already know Aizen is immortal, hencewhy he became a Muken prisoner
2. Because of this, Mayuri says that his restraints don't even bother trying to eliminate Spiritual Pressure, but rather restraining it
3. This is important because this means that because Muken prisoners like Aizen cannot have their Reiatsu/Body eliminated, that would mean techniques such as Yamamoto's Bankai and Hado 54: Haien would not work on him.
4. SAFWY already establish that existence/soul/mind are all one

Aizen's own Reiatsu​

1. Kishibe establishes that sealing the reiatsu cuffs that a Shinigami has will make them burn up from their own Reiatsu going out of control
2. Aizen is pretty much gone which is further implied by Kishibe saying "he will be back"
3. Aizen returns in Chrysialis form
4. Aizen's Reiatsu already erases beings from existence, even when his reiatsu was nerfed

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Does Yamamoto’s bankai and Hado erase things in an EE way or just seeming erasure? Cuz texts can at times describe erasure in the pulverising way of having no visible remains rather than a beyond sub-atomic level deletion, we need the latter for our EE and by extension MGR

 

[Apotheosis69]

In all honesty, the databook saying Haien erases things definitely seems like Hyperbole. Not sure about Yamamoto's Zanka no Tachi tho

 

[Saqphire]

Does Yamamoto’s bankai and Hado erase things in an EE way or just seeming erasure? Cuz texts can at times describe erasure in the pulverising way of having no visible remains rather than a beyond sub-atomic level deletion, we need the latter for our EE and by extension MGR

In Haien's case, it was used literally only once in the manga to erase Grimmjow's arm and then never again

Yama's bankai, after watching the anime version of it, is clearly a hyperbolic statement lmfao

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ouf

 

[Saqphire]

In all honesty, the databook saying Haien erases things definitely seems like Hyperbole. Not sure about Yamamoto's Zanka no Tachi tho

Unlike Yamamoto's bankai, there's no notion indicating Haien's statement to be hyperbolic and Bleach's databooks aren't known for having that type of statements unlike a certain verse's databooks.... so I don't see the basis of assuming such

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bleach's databooks aren't known for having that type of statements unlike a certain verse's databooks

The one piece slander is crazy

Unlike Yamamoto's bankai, there's no notion indicating Haien's statement to be hyperbolic and Bleach's databooks aren't known for having that type of statements unlike a certain verse's databooks.... so I don't see the basis of assuming such

Issue is, we don’t assume things are literal based on how many hyperboles a medium has, we gauge them by how literal a piece of text is (bleach still has those Hueco Mundo endless sand statements)

Not only can you have seeming erasure from pulverisation which would qualify for erasure descriptions, it is supported by Yamamoto calling his shit “erasure without trace” while showing explicit fragmentation, so we know they have the tendency to hype shit up without meaning them in the most literal sense, so it doesn’t make sense to extend charitably to the Hado if it’s not consistent within the verse itself

It’s also important to keep in mind our powerscaling definitions of words aren’t the same as the ones non-scalers (especially mangaka) use

 

[Saqphire]

The one piece slander is crazy

Yeah... One Piece... that was the verse I was referring to mhm...

Issue is, we don’t assume things are literal based on how many hyperboles a medium has, we gauge them by how literal a piece of text is (bleach still has those Hueco Mundo endless sand statements)

That's kind of what I said, the Haien statement is framed as part of a list explaining Hado abilities and like the others, it doesn't have any framing of being hyperbolic in itself, and Bleach's databooks in conjunction isn't known to have hyperbolic statements thrown around left and right

Not only can you have seeming erasure from pulverisation which would qualify for erasure descriptions, it is supported by Yamamoto calling his shit “erasure without trace” while showing explicit fragmentation, so we know they have the tendency to hype shit up without meaning them in the most literal sense, so it doesn’t make sense to extend charitably to the Hado if it’s not consistent within the verse itself

The only argument I myself can think of why erasure wouldn't be literal is the fact that Quincy and Shinigami narrative dynamic is about the former erasing Hollows from existence, which is established to mean removing them from the soul cycle which is why the latter wants to eradicate the former etc. etc. so it would be narratively inconsistent for Soul Society to also have existence erasure, especially if said existence erasure doesn't actually erase them from the cycle

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

High regen Aizen? We going back to 2916 lmao?

 

[Robo432343]

Aizen should keep his MGR rating

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah... One Piece... that was the verse I was referring to mhm...

That's kind of what I said, the Haien statement is framed as part of a list explaining Hado abilities and like the others, it doesn't have any framing of being hyperbolic in itself, and Bleach's databooks in conjunction isn't known to have hyperbolic statements thrown around left and right

I feel like this point of yours is a repeat of the old one and out of respect for everyone’s time we can agree to disagree on this particular thing

The only argument I myself can think of why erasure wouldn't be literal is the fact that Quincy and Shinigami narrative dynamic is about the former erasing Hollows from existence, which is established to mean removing them from the soul cycle which is why the latter wants to eradicate the former etc. etc. so it would be narratively inconsistent for Soul Society to also have existence erasure, especially if said existence erasure doesn't actually erase them from the cycle

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Can you also nuke Yamamoto EE at the same time? I don't know how he gained it, bro can literally use Necromancy one his victims which is a anti-feat for his EE, it was just a flowery language

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

A quick note, everyone: Mayuri’s comment about Aizen’s immortality that appears in the manga no longer exists in the latest anime version — most of those claims were cut (2:38-53). In this case, I don’t think it’s something that should be relied on anymore.

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

I believe Aizen’s “infinite” stamina would also be affected by this changes in the canonical version of the anime, since its foundations were based on Mayuri’s claims.

 

[Robo432343]

A quick note, everyone: Mayuri’s comment about Aizen’s immortality that appears in the manga no longer exists in the latest anime version — most of those claims were cut (2:38-53). In this case, I don’t think it’s something that should be relied on anymore.

Why would we use the anime version over the manga...

 

[Anypersonburnimagines]

Why would we use the anime version over the manga...

Because it’s the primary version… follow the arc's thread; it explains things in more detail.

 

[Robo432343]

Because it’s the primary version of the anime… follow the arc thread; it explains things in more detail.

We take what the manga says over the anime

 

[Damage3245]

We take what the manga says over the anime

Did you read Arc's thread?

 

[Robo432343]

Did you read Arc's thread?

Yeah but in that thread you said manga takes precedent over discrepancies

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah but in that thread you said manga takes precedent over discrepancies

Is that the conclusion that was reached in the thread, or just my own argument? As much as I am generally in favor of that, that seems to be the minority position.

 

[Excellence616]

A quick note, everyone: Mayuri’s comment about Aizen’s immortality that appears in the manga no longer exists in the latest anime version — most of those claims were cut (2:38-53). In this case, I don’t think it’s something that should be relied on anymore.

We take both anime and manga.

 

[Excellence616]

Can you also nuke Yamamoto EE at the same time? I don't know how he gained it, bro can literally use Necromancy one his victims which is a anti-feat for his EE, it was just a flowery language

No it's not. He literally has two techniques for necromancy and the other for existence erasure.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

the thread

Should we also nuke all CFYOW related stuffs that didn't happen in the Anime as a consequence of that Thread ?

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

No it's not. He literally has two techniques for necromancy and the other for existence erasure.

It's not EE his he can just use necromancy on them anytime he wants

 

[Saqphire]

Can you also nuke Yamamoto EE at the same time? I don't know how he gained it, bro can literally use Necromancy one his victims which is a anti-feat for his EE, it was just a flowery language

ZNT: East and ZNT: South are two very different techniques with the latter reviving different people dying to him. And no, since this CRT is about Quincy EE and not Yamamoto EE; that will be handled in a separate thread

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The anime is accepted to super-cede the manga for tybw exclusively, which means manga stuff was rendered unusable if they weren’t mutual, it’s a bit odd all things considered, I’ve seen arc redo some calcs solely because minor calc details were missing as well as gremmy’s goonery which also was “locked” at 4-A instead of 3-B simply due to this rule

And yeah if scar doesn’t wanna deal with it let’s not inject new topics and muddy up the thread, can we call in some staff to evaluate the EE and Aizens regen?

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

ZNT: East and ZNT: South are two very different techniques with the latter reviving different people dying to him.

Yes i alerady know about that, idk why you and Excel are bringing that up.

will be handled in a separate thread

Yeah, sure.

 

[Saqphire]

And yeah if scar doesn’t wanna deal with it let’s not inject new topics and muddy up the thread, can we call in some staff to evaluate the EE and Aizens regen?

Oh I'll gladly make a thread after this wiping Yamamoto's EE without a trace as he said verbatim, it's just that mentioning it here is derailing rn

 

[Deceived3596]

I agree with Limited, Conditional, Existence Erasure for Quincies.

In the narrative of Bleach, Quincies developed a great number of techniques to specifically deal with Hollows. When the Existence Erasure effect is commented on, it's always in reference to Hollows and how Quincies and Shinigami differ when it comes to addressing them: Quincies believe they're a terrible existence, and should be completely annihilated. Shinigami believe they can be saved, and utilize purification techniques with their Zanpakuto to achieve this goal. It's clearly a distinction in how both races deal with Hollows.

Now, I have some issues with this only specifically being entailed by Heilig Pfeil. It's described by Uryu that Quincies utilize their Reiryoku to adhere Reishi to it, to materialize that energy as "Hollow-killing weapons." It's never specified this effect is only derivable through their Heilig Pfeil. To the contrary, it's implied their Reiryoku, when offensively applied, in the creation of techniques, is where the effect emerges.

• It's implicitly confirmed in how Seele Schneiders are compositionally similar to Heilig Pfeil, as both weapons are brought about by collecting and gluing Reishi to Reiryoku, and materializing that energy offensively. Why would their be a unspecified distinction between the two's instinct natures, when the narrative surrounding how Quincies eradicate Hollows is by developing offensive techniques, like the Heilig Pfeil and the Seele Schneider.
  
  
• There are also the Ginto vials: These are small vials filed with Reiryoku and offensively utilized by Quincies. In the Databook 2 Masked, Haizen is a technique that is described as "gouging and purging" anything that is enclosed by the Reiryoku of the Ginto. If Heilig Pfeil were supposedly the only way for Quincies to eradicate Hollows, why is a technique that is different, being described as possessing a "purging" attribute, distinct from the "gouging" that occurs as a byproduct? Purging, within this context of Quincies, seems to have a specific connotation with it. Quincies "purge" Hollows by destroying them from existence--it's a form of spiritual cleansing by complete annihilation. When interpreting this statement, we cannot forget about this context.
  
  
• An interesting point I haven't seen anyone comment on: In the image connected with the explanation of how Quincies eradicate Hollows, the Quincy depicted is seemingly not utilizing a Heilig Pfeil to commit the deed. Heilig Pfeil are tangible weapons, like bows, arrows, swords etc. Which isn't present in the image. It visually lines up more with a Quincy spell, which we know can be utilized with hand motions.

So, I believe I laid out a comprehensive and consistent position as to why Existence Erasure shouldn't be narrowly assumed to only apply to Heilig Pfeil. The evidence and argumentation I gave, coherently expresses why it should also apply to other techniques which are technically different from Heilig Pfeil.

As for everything else, like Yamamoto and his Existence Erasure, or Aizen's Regeneration: that stuff should be addressed in a different thread. This thread is specifically about Quincies--everything else is either tangential or irrelevant to it

 

[Saqphire]

I agree with Limited, Conditional, Existence Erasure for Quincies.

In the narrative of Bleach, Quincies developed a great number of techniques to specifically deal with Hollows. When the Existence Erasure effect is commented on, it's always in reference to Hollows and how Quincies and Shinigami differ when it comes to addressing them: Quincies believe they're a terrible existence, and should be completely annihilated. Shinigami believe they can be saved, and utilize purification techniques with their Zanpakuto to achieve this goal. It's clearly a distinction in how both races deal with Hollows.

Now, I have some issues with this only specifically being entailed by Heilig Pfeil. It's described by Uryu that Quincies utilize their Reiryoku to adhere Reishi to it, to materialize that energy as "Hollow-killing weapons." It's never specified this effect is only derivable through their Heilig Pfeil. To the contrary, it's implied their Reiryoku, when offensively applied, in the creation of techniques, is where the effect emerges.

• It's implicitly confirmed in how Seele Schneiders are compositionally similar to Heilig Pfeil, as both weapons are brought about by collecting and gluing Reishi to Reiryoku, and materializing that energy offensively. Why would their be a unspecified distinction between the two's instinct natures, when the narrative surrounding how Quincies eradicate Hollows is by developing offensive techniques, like the Heilig Pfeil and the Seele Schneider.
  
  
• There are also the Ginto vials: These are small vials filed with Reiryoku and offensively utilized by Quincies. In the Databook 2 Masked, Haizen is a technique that is described as "gouging and purging" anything that is enclosed by the Reiryoku of the Ginto. If Heilig Pfeil were supposedly the only way for Quincies to eradicate Hollows, why is a technique that is different, being described as possessing a "purging" attribute, distinct from the "gouging" that occurs as a byproduct? Purging, within this context of Quincies, seems to have a specific connotation with it. Quincies "purge" Hollows by destroying them from existence--it's a form of spiritual cleansing by complete annihilation. When interpreting this statement, we cannot forget about this context.
  
  
• An interesting point I haven't seen anyone comment on: In the image connected with the explanation of how Quincies eradicate Hollows, the Quincy depicted is seemingly not utilizing a Heilig Pfeil to commit the deed. Heilig Pfeil are tangible weapons, like bows, arrows, swords etc. Which isn't present in the image. It visually lines up more with a Quincy spell, which we know can be utilized with hand motions.

So, I believe I laid out a comprehensive and consistent position as to why Existence Erasure shouldn't be narrowly assumed to only apply to Heilig Pfeil. The evidence and argumentation I gave, coherently expresses why it should also apply to other techniques which are technically different from Heilig Pfeil.

As for everything else, like Yamamoto and his Existence Erasure, or Aizen's Regeneration: that stuff should be addressed in a different thread. This thread is specifically about Quincies--everything else is either tangential or irrelevant to it

I mean I did say this:

...and finally, Rukia talks about Quincy Power overall being what erases hollows, with nothing implying they would erase anything else. All these statements, in conjunction with Kubo's WoG assertion, would give us a very clear picture of what his intent was with the Quincies' power

So I already agreed with you from the start; Heilig Pheils being mentioned by Kubo =/= only Heilig Pheils erase from existence or erase only hollows from existence. Either way, I agree with your comment 100%

 

[Deceived3596]

So I already agreed with you from the start; Heilig Pheils being mentioned by Kubo =/= only Heilig Pheils erase from existence or erase only hollows from existence. Either way, I agree with your comment 100%

Oh, I know. It wasn't aimed towards your post. It was more so a preemptive response to anyone who may have disagreed with it. I saw some discussion around it, and I wanted to nip that in the bud before it could've grown into something bigger.

 

[Saqphire]

Oh, I know. It wasn't aimed towards your post. It was more so a preemptive response to anyone who may have disagreed with it. I saw some discussion around it, and I wanted to nip that in the bud before it could've grown into something bigger.

Fair enough

Side note I can't wait for this CRT limbo to end with the third staff member plopping up from existence

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

ask qawsed, tracer or dale on their walls and see if they respond