The Most Racist Tier 0 is a BUM

[Hecky2222]

Fragmentation in Tier 0 sounds real funny. Anyways, with all being said, disagree w/ t0 fra. This shouldn't be remotely controversial.

"But they are unreachable bro"

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Fragmentation in Tier 0 sounds real funny. Anyways, with all being said, disagree w/ t0 fra. This shouldn't be remotely controversial.

Turns out it is indeed controversial...

 

[BoastJr]

I am more with in favor of the downgrade after reviewing Shin and Supernova's points

I don't think Okstrike presented anything substantial and tried a wikipedia link and Shin has addressed udl's points regarding the archetype having this "true true" form that is ineffable and supposedly tier 0 despite there being rather blatant multiplicity

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

I’ve read the entire thread up to this point, and I just want to say that the opposition doesn’t seem to understand what Nova and Shin are arguing.

A good portion of the replies go completely off on a tangent or don’t address the issue at all. I don’t understand why there are users saying Low 1-A is totally "unacceptable" or "outrageous" when there hasn’t really been a concrete refutation of the OP itself, just broad, general associations that don’t demonstrate a 1-A tier or higher based on the actual diegetical evidence.

I’m in favor of Low 1-A.

There are though? Kebabri gave enough evidence for Low 1-A for the upper echelon to be absurd. It should thus hold that previous scales on the mythos still apply, although it depends on the supports to get the dreamlands/higher into higher tiers based on the new system(which Ult and the guy whose name I forgot did, which shows that the claim around the gates and dimensionality are incosistent within the mythos at large, unless you argue it was "retconned" or something), besides, he says himself that he doesn't want to bother with bringing tier 0 back.

 

[Okstrike]

P1) X Verse mentions the existence of God
P2) Aquinas holds God as Pure Act
P3) Pure Act is Tier 0
C1) God of X Verse is Tier 0

Ahh argument.

Remind where i said Yog is Pure Act?

That isn't the argument here, Yog being an absolute oneness beyond divisions is, and you don't need Pure Act to get to tier 0, stop treating this like its PSW; Brahman, Dharmakaya, The Tao, Tawhid and so much more concepts are all tier 0 yet they have nothing to do with Pure Act, a more clear example of this would be the Orthodox understanding of Tawhid which outright denies many Neoplatonist ideas, like with scholar Al-Ghazali criticizing Neoplatonism in his book "The Incoherence of the Philosophers," all this yet Orthodox Tawid still shows everything else required for tier 0, the main concern of Tier 0 is that it's a Monad beyond divisions, you don't need to adhear to certain concept for that

I mean, your very source says this:
Most of these guys hold completely different ontological commitments, and stuff like Hegel’s doesn’t even qualify for Tier 0 in this wiki, so it can’t be that you appeal to the most extreme version (The One) of the philosophy in order to support your argument.

Hegel also said that the Eternal Tao equates to reason (???), if it isn't apparent to you, I'm going off what philosophers generally say and not a select fews idea

If I were in a burning building and multiple people ran past me warning me to get out, I wouldn’t suddenly feel safe just because one person said everything was fine. If the overwhelming majority confirmed the fire, I’d evacuate and listen to them, the same is the case here

Me and Shin already explained how being a Oneness doesn’t necessitate the lack of parts at all

What you’re referring to is internal multiplicity but that absolutely does not necessitate that it is not a oneness.

Plotinus, and particularly, Neoplatonism (since you referenced it), holds that:
As the One is the pre-condition for unity, it itself is not unified; instead, all things derived from it exist because they are unities. The One, then, is merely unification-itself (which is something admitted by the Omnipotence page, as well). As such, all things are fundamentally “onenesses” insofar as they are “one” for participating in “The One”.

So it cannot follow that all “onenesses” are Tier 0. Contrarily, it must be elaborated what “oneness” means in such a case; for something like Intellect is a oneness in the sense that it is One-Many. I.e, it is “all things” as “one”. But you do not require being “all things” to be “one”. Nor do things need to be “one” as simpliciter.

And as said, it doesn’t need to be qualified this strictly, because even self-identity is a oneness.

Don't equivocate derivative unity and absolute unity, i'm not saying “Everything that is one is Tier 0” what i'm actaully saying is that “A monotheistic unity where distinctions are ontologically unreal is Tier 0”

In other words, the issue is not whether Yog is “one” in a numerical sense. The issue is whether distinctions are ontologically fundamental or illusory, which is the case here:

All these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously. These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial?

Faced with this realisation, Randolph Carter reeled in the clutch of supreme horror—horror such as had not been hinted even at the climax of that hideous night when two had ventured into an ancient and abhorred necropolis under a waning moon and only one had emerged. No death, no doom, no anguish can arouse the surpassing despair which flows from a loss of identity. Merging with nothingness is peaceful oblivion; but to be aware of existence and yet to know that one is no longer a definite being distinguished from other beings—that one no longer has a self—that is the nameless summit of agony and dread.

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. It was as though his body had been suddenly transformed into one of those many-limbed and many-headed effigies sculptured in Indian temples, and he contemplated the aggregation in a bewildered attempt to discern which was the original and which the additions—if indeed (supremely monstrous thought) there were any original as distinguished from other embodiments.

This is just a bad reading of the text.

They are “one” insofar as they are parts of the Archetype’s whole. Division here is strictly understood as the Archetype being seen in slices, which differentiates the various forms of Carter across Space-Time.

And Carter’s Archetype being the Archetype as well is just to say that all other beings are similarly slices of the same totality.

I literally addressed that, please don't straw man my argument, the text EXPLICITLY says that there is no distinction between any of facets hence why all the "Carters" are EQUALLY himself regardless of duality and hence why self and other hold no meaning since distinctions between ontologies dissolve in Yog-Sothoth, if there was any real differentiation in the unity than this can't be the case:

There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself. Some of the glimpses recalled dreams—both faint and vivid, single and persistent—which he had had through the long years since he first began to dream, and a few possessed a haunting, fascinating, and almost horrible familiarity which no earthly logic could explain.

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he

Faced with this realisation, Randolph Carter reeled in the clutch of supreme horror—horror such as had not been hinted even at the climax of that hideous night when two had ventured into an ancient and abhorred necropolis under a waning moon and only one had emerged. No death, no doom, no anguish can arouse the surpassing despair which flows from a loss of identity. Merging with nothingness is peaceful oblivion; but to be aware of existence and yet to know that one is no longer a definite being distinguished from other beings—that one no longer has a self—that is the nameless summit of agony and dread.

This concept is even shown in the preceding Randolph Carter story, in "The Silver Key" Carter learns that truth only exists in harmony where things are neither beautiful or ugly, nor good or evil, with all just being perspectives:

In the first days of his bondage he had turned to the gentle churchly faith endeared to him by the naive trust of his fathers, for thence stretched mystic avenues which seemed to promise escape from life. Only on closer view did he mark the starved fancy and beauty, the stale and prosy triteness, and the owlish gravity and grotesque claims of solid truth which reigned boresomely and overwhelmingly among most of its professors; or feel to the full the awkwardness with which it sought to keep alive as literal fact the outgrown fears and guesses of a primal race confronting the unknown. It wearied Carter to see how solemnly people tried to make earthly reality out of old myths which every step of their boasted science confuted, and this misplaced seriousness killed the attachment he might have kept for the ancient creeds had they been content to offer the sonorous rites and emotional outlets in their true guise of ethereal fantasy. But when he came to study those who had thrown off the old myths, he found them even more ugly than those who had not. They did not know that beauty lies in harmony, and that loveliness of life has no standard amidst an aimless cosmos save only its harmony with the dreams and the feelings which have gone before and blindly moulded our little spheres out of the rest of chaos. They did not see that good and evil and beauty and ugliness are only ornamental fruits of perspective, whose sole value lies in their linkage to what chance made our fathers think and feel, and whose finer details are different for every race and culture. Instead, they either denied these things altogether or transferred them to the crude, vague instincts which they shared with the beasts and peasants; so that their lives were dragged malodorously out in pain, ugliness, and disproportion, yet filled with a ludicrous pride at having escaped from something no more unsound than that which still held them. They had traded the false gods of fear and blind piety for those of licence and anarchy.

Also, If you're going to use an argument which i have already refuted, please actually address what i said and don't not just repeat things that i've already countered, you CAN NEVER truly cut the cone therefore you can only do it illusorily, hence why it says this:

As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself

It doesn’t matter what his beliefs are if they aren’t properly instantiated into the text. The rigid definitions given in the story are always primary to what inspirations the author had.

DO NOT treat your own interpretations as absolute truths, they aren't even vaguely rigid, otherwise i wouldn't be able to provide counter arguments to them, anyone whose actually read Lovecrafts works would know that his style is VERY ambiguous, so it's important to look at what the Authors intentions where. I'm not saying “Lovecraft believed X, therefore Yog is X” I'm saying “Lovecraft explicitly stated the story was written to embody X, and the text consistently reflects it”

We two options here, either A, I'm wrong and you're right and there is no real unity beyond distinction, or B, I'm right and you're wrong and there is unity beyond distinction

Enter Lovecraft, he personally views his Silver Key stories as mirrors of his own Philosophy, with said Philosophy advocating for interpretation B, meaning Interpterion A losses it's credibility since the author intended his writings to mean interpretation B

holds that Absolute Reality is unapproachable and “fragmented/illusory” by virtue of limited sense-equipment.

Just read the text brotato to see what said "equipment" refers to, philosophy and art is what it's referring to, meaning no thoughts could reach the ultimate reailty:

The search for ultimate reality is the most ineradicable urge in the human personality—the basis of every real religion, and the foundation of all that nobly poetic body of philosophy which has its fount in Plato. Anything which enhances our sense of success in this quest, be it art or religion, is the source of a pricelessly rich emotional experience—and the more we lose this experience in religion, the more we need to get it in something else. In stark intellectual truth, this experience is an illusion; since it is absurd to fancy that the narrow range of visions afforded by different artists within the human species could give even the merest hint of an ultimate reality

It fails because there are a multitude of similarities in that they are static totalities seen in phenomenological slices. The semantics and verbiage of “illusion” adds functionally nothing in regards to the basic functions between the two.

That literally it...
the sheer amount contrasts between the two outweighs it similarities by a large margin
In Eternizmism:

• Time exists
• There is temporal ordering
• Slices correspond to real points in time
• Observer moves through time

In the Mythos:

• Time is unreal
• There is no temporal ordering
• Slices correspond illusorily to ureal points in time
• Observer misperceives a changeless totality

It’s the issue that the “phenomenological illusions” will always be disqualifiers for the accepted categories required for Tier 0.

To quote:
The incomprehensibility of the character must not come from a contingent limitation of a lower being's intellect, which could conceivably be overcome through some manner of evolution (e.g. The way a 4-dimensional hypercube is incomprehensible to our 3-dimensional brains), but from the fundamental nature of the character.
Also, it is fundamentally just bad practice for something to fundamentally contradict the properties of every example brought about regarding the Tier it is being proposed in.

That quote dos not support your claim what so ever, it does no say "phenomenological illusions not being the true ontology is incompatible with Tier 0" all it says is that "incomprehensibility of the tier 0 character must not come from a contingent limitation" the way a 4d object can be perceived by us, which isn't case since the incomprehensibility is said to be an ineffability, IE, something that can't be grasped with words either

The barrier here firstly only separates him from the “land of his dreams” and only secondly does it talk about a difference place (gulf), where then you can dissolve into the Absolute.

Carter here knows about “something” where dimensions dissolve in, but it is only revealed later into the story “what” that thing is.

Stop basely asserting things which aren't even vaguely hinted to be the case, Carter has no knowledge of the Supreme Archetype up to this point, just because he uses the word absolute does not mean its in reference to Yog-Sothoth or that he has knowledge of it, it's like saying Tsath is Yog-Sothoth because he uses omnipotent to refer to Tsath

Also it’s literally not the same because “Absolute” is used in the same story, and in that same story, the only other undimensioned thing is the Archetype. This is a fundamentally basic relation.

Really? thats funny because the outer extension referred to as undimensioned

Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.

TL;DR to make my stance as clear as possible: Yog is a Monad beyond distinction whose apparent divisions exist only as failures of perspective, and no ontology grounded in perspectival illusion can be treated as genuinely multiplicative, the "slices" in the cone are not real division because there unreal illusions born of limited perception

 

[Okstrike]

Fragmentation in Tier 0 sounds real funny. Anyways, with all being said, disagree w/ t0 fra. This shouldn't be remotely controversial.

Yall aren't even reading my arguments
there is no Fragmentation, that only exist in the limited mind

 

[Re5yh]

Remind where i said Yog is Pure Act?

That isn't the argument here, Yog being an absolute oneness beyond divisions is, and you don't need Pure Act to get to tier 0, stop treating this like its PSW; Brahman, Dharmakaya, The Tao, Tawhid and so much more concepts are all tier 0 yet they have nothing to do with Pure Act, a more spiefc example would be Orthodox Tawhid for example which outright denies many Neoplatonist ideas, yet Tawid still shows everything else required for tier 0, the main concern of Tier 0 is that it's a Monad beyond divisions, you don't need to adhear to certain concept for that

Hegel also said that the Eternal Tao equates reason (???), if it isn't apparent to you, I'm going off what philosophers generally say and not a select fews idea

If I were in a burning building and multiple people ran past me warning me to get out, I wouldn’t suddenly feel safe just because one person said everything was fine. If the overwhelming majority confirmed the fire, I’d evacuate and listen to them, the same is the case here

Don't equivocate derivative unity and absolute unity, i'm not saying “Everything that is one is Tier 0” what i'm actaully saying is that “A monotheistic unity where distinctions are ontologically unreal is Tier 0”

In other words, the issue is not whether Yog is “one” in a numerical sense. The issue is whether distinctions are ontologically fundamental or illusory, which is the case here:





I literally addressed that, please don't straw man my argument, the text EXPLICITLY says that there is no distinction between any of facets hence why all the "Carters" are EQUALLY himself regardless of duality and hence why self and other hold no meaning since distinctions between ontologies dissolve in Yog-Sothoth, if there was any real differentiation in the unity than this can't be the case:



This concept is even shown in the preceding Randolph Carter story, in "The Silver Key" Carter learns that truth only exists in harmony where things are neither beautiful or ugly, nor good or evil, with all just being perspectives:

Also, If you're going to use an argument which i have already refuted, please actually address what i said and don't not just repeat things that i've already countered, you CAN NEVER truly cut the cone therefore you can only do it illusorily, hence why it says this:


DO NOT treat your own interpretations as absolute truths, they aren't even vaguely rigid, otherwise i wouldn't be able to provide counter arguments to them, anyone whose actually read Lovecrafts works would know that his style is VERY ambiguous, so it's important to look at what the Authors intentions where. I'm not saying “Lovecraft believed X, therefore Yog is X” I'm saying “Lovecraft explicitly stated the story was written to embody X, and the text consistently reflects it”

We two options here, either A, I'm wrong and you're right and there is no real unity beyond distinction, or B, I'm right and you're wrong and there is unity beyond distinction

Enter Lovecraft, he personally views his Silver Key stories as mirrors of his own Philosophy, with said Philosophy advocating for interpretation B, meaning Interpterion A losses it's credibility since the author intended his writings to mean interpretation B

Just read the text brotato to see what said "equipment" refers to, philosophy and art is what it's referring to, meaning no thoughts could reach the ultimate reailty:


That literally it...
the sheer amount contrasts between the two outweighs it similarities by a large margin
In Eternizmism:

• Time exists
• There is temporal ordering
• Slices correspond to real points in time
• Observer moves through time

In the Mythos:

• Time is unreal
• There is no temporal ordering
• Slices correspond illusorily to ureal points in time
• Observer misperceives a changeless totality

That quote dos not support your claim what so ever, it does no say "phenomenological illusions not being the true ontology is incompatible with Tier 0" all it says is that "incomprehensibility of the tier 0 character must not come from a contingent limitation" the way a 4d object can be perceived by us, which isn't case since the incomprehensibility is said to be an ineffability, IE, something that can't be grasped with words either

Stop basely asserting things which aren't even vaguely hinted to be the case, Carter has no knowledge of the Supreme Archetype up to this point, just because he uses the word absolute does not mean its in reference to Yog-Sothoth or that he has knowledge of it, it's like saying Tsath is Yog-Sothoth because he uses omnipotent to refer to Tsath

Really? thats funny because the outer extension referred to as undimensioned

TL;DR to make my stance as clear as possible: Yog is a Monad beyond distinction whose apparent divisions exist only as failures of perspective, and no ontology grounded in perspectival illusion can be treated as genuinely multiplicative, the "slices" in the cone are not real division because there unreal illusions born of limited perception

But what about the Ultimate Abyss then?

 

[Okstrike]

But what about the Ultimate Abyss then?

I'm going off the interpretation that Yog-Sothoth/Supreme Archetype is the supreme being, in which the Abyss/Unchanged Ultimate Reality is Yog-Sothoth/limitless Being & Self, there's no distinction

 

[SuperNova55555]

Remind where i said Yog is Pure Act?

It’s called a reductio. I never claimed you said Yog is Pure Act. But it certainly raises some questions regarding whether or not you are even attempting to posit Yog as the very baseline for the Tier.

Hegel also said that the Eternal Tao equates reason (???), if it isn't apparent to you, I'm going off what philosophers generally say and not a select fews idea

If I were in a burning building and multiple people ran past me warning me to get out, I wouldn’t suddenly feel safe just because one person said everything was fine. If the overwhelming majority confirmed the fire, I’d evacuate and listen to them, the same is the case here

Can you stop with these shitty analogies?

I’m literally critiquing you on the fact that all of these philosophers are fundamentally different in their interpretation of a certain concept; and even if they weren’t, that wouldn’t give you anymore ground to say that Lovecraft thinks the exact same anyways.

Don't equivocate derivative unity and absolute unity, i'm not saying “Everything that is one is Tier 0” what i'm actaully saying is that “A monotheistic unity where distinctions are ontologically unreal is Tier 0”

In other words, the issue is not whether Yog is “one” in a numerical sense. The issue is whether distinctions are ontologically fundamental or illusory, which is the case here:

My point is that “Oneness” is a broad term to denote a broad concept. I merely elaborated on that by pointing out examples which go against your pre-supposed conception of Yog’s oneness.

That is to say, that “oneness” is a meaningless term, because all the weight it carries is by the way it is metaphysically supposed into the text

The issue with all the examples listed below is that they are all qualified in ways which do not fit the characteristics of Tier 0.

Shin already went over this in his comment, but what you are doing is just taking individual buzzwords and exaggerating their meanings beyond what they’re supposed to mean in a holistic background.

I literally addressed that, please don't straw man my argument, the text EXPLICITLY says that there is no distinction between any of facets hence why all the "Carters" are EQUALLY himself regardless of duality and hence why self and other hold no meaning since distinctions between ontologies dissolve in Yog-Sothoth, if there was any real differentiation in the unity than this can't be the case:

I will say the same thing: that’s a bad reading of the text.

You keep doing this thing where you take Lovecraft’s complex verbiage, ignore the surrounding context about it and state a conclusion with the only proof being an out-of-context word.

They are “equally himself”, because all his fragments are him in different points of Space-Time.

And I love how you quote the part about “self and other”, but then fail to address the glaring issue of how Carter’s subjective experience differs from the Archetype and from the other Gods.

So is he unified or not?

This concept is even shown in the preceding Randolph Carter story, in "The Silver Key" Carter learns that truth only exists in harmony where things are neither beautiful or ugly, nor good or evil, with all just being perspectives:

Ok?

That’s literally something to be expected by a totality that embodies all frames of reality. Good and Bad are both naturally included in it. I know you’re trying to posit it as Nonduality, but it’d be as Nondual as Space-Time is (by the fact that it contains all good and bad acts). So it’s not much to help here.

Also, If you're going to use an argument which i have already refuted, please actually address what i said and don't not just repeat things that i've already countered, you CAN NEVER truly cut the cone therefore you can only do it illusorily, hence why it says this:

Sigh.

I didn’t want to ask this since it’d be such an absurd thing, but do you think I’m saying that you literally slice the cone?

DO NOT treat your own interpretations as absolute truths, they aren't even vaguely rigid, otherwise i wouldn't be able to provide counter arguments to them, anyone whose actually read Lovecrafts works would know that his style is VERY ambiguous, so it's important to look at what the Authors intentions where. I'm not saying “Lovecraft believed X, therefore Yog is X” I'm saying “Lovecraft explicitly stated the story was written to embody X, and the text consistently reflects it”

We two options here, either A, I'm wrong and you're right and there is no real unity beyond distinction, or B, I'm right and you're wrong and there is unity beyond distinction

Enter Lovecraft, he personally views his Silver Key stories as mirrors of his own Philosophy, with said Philosophy advocating for interpretation B, meaning Interpterion A losses it's credibility since the author intended his writings to mean interpretation B

You posit the wrong interpretation of X.

And no, the functions of the Archetype are very rigid. Otherwise, Lovecraft wouldn’t go so in-depth regarding how Space, Time and Dimensions are derived. And not just explain them, but do so multiple times with the same terms.

That literally it...
the sheer amount contrasts between the two outweighs it similarities by a large margin
In Eternizmism:

• Time exists
• There is temporal ordering
• Slices correspond to real points in time
• Observer moves through time

In the Mythos:

• Time is unreal
• There is no temporal ordering
• Slices correspond illusorily to ureal points in time
• Observer misperceives a changeless totality

Eternalism is a changeless totality. Change only appears insofar as it is part of your phenomenal experience. But that’s just the same thing Yog-Sothoth is.

That quote dos not support your claim what so ever, it does no say "phenomenological illusions not being the true ontology is incompatible with Tier 0" all it says is that "incomprehensibility of the tier 0 character must not come from a contingent limitation" the way a 4d object can be perceived by us, which isn't case since the incomprehensibility is said to be an ineffability, IE, something that can't be grasped with words either

It is a contingent limitation.

Passing the gates is quite literally the ability to conceive of higher spatial dimensions.

Stop basely asserting things which aren't even vaguely hinted to be the case, Carter has no knowledge of the SA up to this point, just because he uses the word absolute does not mean its in reference to Yog-Sothoth, it's like saying Tsath is Yog-Sothoth because he uses omnipotent to refer to Tsath

It’s a basic storytelling technique, where an author references a later part of the story in an earlier point of time (Hint: It’s called foreshadowing. Lovecraft is not illiterate).

And if you’ll notice in that comment, I explicitly stated that Carter had no knowledge of Yog.

really, than why is the outer extension referred to as undimensioned? lmao

That’s not true. You’re just conflating the Archetype’s omnipresence for some other place being undimensioned.

Where they’re at at that point of the story is earth’s transdimensional extension, of which is explicitly still not fully beyond the other universes.

Also:

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions.

The Abyss is that “THE” space beyond dimensions.

This is a very easy relation to make by combining different points in the same story. You’re overcomplicating the meaning of it to squeeze out an interpretation that isn’t implied.

Also, is the outer extension the ineffable thing now? Huh. I swear you were just saying that ineffability only belonged to the Archetype. Or are you going to claim that they are ineffable differently? That seems like a lot of unprovable assumptions when a single interpretation can harmonize them all.

Also, respond to Shin. Don’t be scared.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the arguments for and against here in a single post please?

Also, it seems against our rules to have two tier 0 characters (Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth) for the same verse.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also, while I did say Low 1-A in the beginning, reading stuff like this:

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions.

And going by what @Darksmash said, I’m starting to really think that “undimensioned” is just an analogue for infinite-dimensional space, which stands in polarity with finite-dimensional space. Since infinite-dimensional spaces have a very exotic makeup unlike their finite counterparts, you can interpret “undimensioned” as having no real perpendicular dimension since it already possess all degrees of movement.

@Antvasima
I’ve seen your comment; I’m just unsure of what to summarize because all of these arguments feel rather unsubstantial, and all the comments are functionally the re-hashing of the same points over and over.

But I do believe that this comment of Shin:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-most-racist-tier-0-is-a-bum.187282/post-7513726

And my response up above:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-most-racist-tier-0-is-a-bum.187282/post-7514120

Can function as good closure regarding all the points here, probably.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

I’ve seen your comment; I’m just unsure of what to summarize because all of these arguments feel rather unsubstantial, and all the comments are functionally the re-hashing of the same points over and over.

Should I summarize mine too regarding the gates being not dimensions? So people can read It and if they want eventual answer they can look up to our previous discussion?

 

[Hecky2222]

Should I summarize mine too regarding the gates being not dimensions? So people can read It and if they want eventual answer they can look up to our discussion

both side should

 

[SweetDao]

Honestly, instead of going on and on about where the characters scale here, wouldn't it be more logical to go with the Low 1-A of Super_Nova (since everyone seems to disagree with tier 0 regardless) and afterward, if supporters wants it, they can always just make a thread to update it.

It seems like a waste of time and space to go on about "it's higher than Low 1-A" when the point was removing the tier 0, something that, unless I'm wrong, everyone accepted.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh buddy this is hellish...

Yeah, Low 1-A is fine for the moment. They should probably be 1-A or so, but I'm not exactly sitting here with full knowledge of those standards, but tier 0 has to go. For Azzy and for Yogg.

 

[Okstrike]

Can somebody summarise the arguments for and against here in a single post please?

The Argument for tier 0 in a nutshell: The ultimate reality is a completely changeless oneness without parts beyond all distinctions like self or other, with any apparent "antifeat" being illusions created by limited perception; compared to a "cone" where these things exist solely in the observer and their viewpoint while the observed (the "cone") remains single and unchanged, its true nature on the other hand is completely unknowable and not even vaguely approachable even with tools such as philosophy, further evidance can be found in the fact that Lovecraft himself personally said in a letter that he views his Silver Key stories as mirrors of his own Philosophy, with said Philosophy advocating for this interpretation

Nova, can give their own explanation for why they disagree with tier 0 so i wont cover it, but as they said, this thread probably isn't gonna go anywhere (it can be summarized as two brick walls screaming at each other for days on end)

Also, it seems against our rules to have two tier 0 characters (Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth) for the same verse.

I don't think anyone believes Azathoth should be getting tier 0

 

[Okstrike]

Honestly, instead of going on and on about where the characters scale here, wouldn't it be more logical to go with the Low 1-A of Super_Nova (since everyone seems to disagree with tier 0 regardless) and afterward, if supporters wants it, they can always just make a thread to update it.

If i'm no mistaken, most people are neutral because they aren't knowledgeable enough on the verse

 

[Mbpoops]

agree next

 

[Mbpoops]

Stop Trolling Dude

No one Would Read Cthulu Mythos in Big 2026 anyways

I just bought the book

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima
I’ve seen your comment; I’m just unsure of what to summarize because all of these arguments feel rather unsubstantial, and all the comments are functionally the re-hashing of the same points over and over.

But I do believe that this comment of Shin:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-most-racist-tier-0-is-a-bum.187282/post-7513726

And my response up above:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-most-racist-tier-0-is-a-bum.187282/post-7514120

Can function as good closure regarding all the points here, probably.

Well, I am personally fine with this downgrade, but I am likely not a good person to evaluate this.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

That isn't the argument here, Yog being an absolute oneness beyond divisions is, and you don't need Pure Act to get to tier 0, stop treating this like its PSW; Brahman, Dharmakaya, The Tao, Tawhid and so much more concepts are all tier 0 yet they have nothing to do with Pure Act, a more clear example of this would be the Orthodox understanding of Tawhid which outright denies many Neoplatonist ideas, like with scholar Al-Ghazali criticizing Neoplatonism in his book "The Incoherence of the Philosophers," all this yet Orthodox Tawid still shows everything else required for tier 0, the main concern of Tier 0 is that it's a Monad beyond divisions, you don't need to adhear to certain concept for that

Well, isn't this an awfully pedantic way to cling to? Do you know all of those accounts you've listed all converge at the truth that unity is without potency, right? You're wrong in equating Neoplatonism as an account for Pure Act, though. Because the One is beyond activity and potency, it is not just "Pure Actuality"; you seemed to conflate the denial of Pure Act with the denial of Neoplatonic theory.

Dharmakāya is not Tier 0 lol, that is a gross misinterpretation of Buddhism. Buddhism is precisely against the reification of the ultimate reality ontological, through their conception of suchness/tathata. And they arrive at the ultimate reality first, through the conventional truth that phenomenal experience is. And through that, phenomenal experience always reveals itself in flux. Especially more radical schools of thought like the middle way, flux becomes the basis by which you deny reality to be predicable of anything.

And they don't posit any transcendent principle, because arriving at the ultimate reality is just seeing the reality you commonly experience without conceptual obstructions or discrimination. Unless you're willing to go down a further rabbit hole of arguing with me about things you clearly don't know, it's probably for the best to abstain from talking about this. Seems more productive that way.

Hegel also said that the Eternal Tao equates to reason (???), if it isn't apparent to you, I'm going off what philosophers generally say and not a select fews idea

Hegel never says this, lol, the thing you cited, especially that section you're talking about, is a secondary interpretation of Hegelian philosophy. You can never find any citation in any book that Hegel writes, where he explicitly equates the Dao to reason. Also, I love how you conveniently ignored everything about that paper to just respond with this non-argument. You do know this response changes nothing, right? Because the Dao has been equated to quantum vacuums by other scholars who prefer a naturalistic interpretation of Daoism? But nonetheless, I can assure you, you'll be hard pressed to find any book of Hegel where he himself writes that. I daresay, find me one. Go ahead.

Now I wonder, given that, do you think the quantum vacuum is Tier 0 because it is equated to the Dao, or the Dao is not always Tier 0 because it is equated depending on the interpretation of the scholars to the quantum vacuum?

I won't respond to the rest, really, it's all just mental gymnastics. Just awaiting the staff evaluation.

Can somebody summarise the arguments for and against here in a single post please?
Also, it seems against our rules to have two tier 0 characters (Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth) for the same verse.

Well, the supporters can give their own conclusions, whenever they lie about something, though I'll call it out and just cite exactly what they said. Since it seems like the thread is taking that path already.

Since the okstrike guy initially claims:

I did not modify the text, please do not spread misinformation, "oneness" inherently has no parts otherwise it isn't oneness but rather dualism, and i already disproved that it refers to individuality so everything converging into "oneness" must refer to as in Monotheistic oneness, IE, oneness without parts

Then, when I respond correcting his arrogant and, dare I say, distasteful expressed misapprehension of how predicates like 'oneness' work, he just pretends he never said this at all:

Don't equivocate derivative unity and absolute unity, i'm not saying “Everything that is one is Tier 0” what i'm actaully saying is that “A monotheistic unity where distinctions are ontologically unreal is Tier 0”

My initial response to the critiques of the thread was:

Snip

And my last one was:

Snip

Where I directly respond to both the UDL guy and the okstrike dude.

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Honestly, instead of going on and on about where the characters scale here, wouldn't it be more logical to go with the Low 1-A of Super_Nova (since everyone seems to disagree with tier 0 regardless) and afterward, if supporters wants it, they can always just make a thread to update it.

It seems like a waste of time and space to go on about "it's higher than Low 1-A" when the point was removing the tier 0, something that, unless I'm wrong, everyone accepted.

The way I see it is that he is framing the highest hierarchy of the verse to be dimensional so that Low 1-A and structural ascension would be easier to justify. I mean I think its clear that OP wants to bring the upper echelon to Low 1-A instead of just removing tier 0(If that were the case, the tier of the S.AT/UA would just be the highest level demonstrated, which was High 1-A before). Besides, the thread had enough people justifying (Low) 1-A abyss/dreamlands as far as I'm aware. I am fine with just removing old High 1-A/0 tags if they don't fit the current system though, and let supporters bring it back up to the old tiers.

 

[SweetDao]

The way I see it is that he is framing the highest hierarchy of the verse to be dimensional so that Low 1-A and structural ascension would be easier to justify. I mean I think its clear that OP wants to bring the upper echelon to Low 1-A instead of just removing tier 0(If that were the case, the tier of the S.AT/UA would just be the highest level demonstrated, which was High 1-A before). Besides, the thread had enough people justifying (Low) 1-A abyss/dreamlands as far as I'm aware. I am fine with just removing old High 1-A/0 tags if they don't fit the current system though, and let supporters bring it back up to the old tiers.

Yeah, that's what I said, I don't know if you're a supporter or not, but since the main issue is "globally" out of the way, people can always just make a subsequent thread to upgrade it if they feel like the rating Super_Nova proposes is too low. No point in going more and more pages.

 

[Re5yh]

The way I see it is that he is framing the highest hierarchy of the verse to be dimensional so that Low 1-A and structural ascension would be easier to justify. I mean I think its clear that OP wants to bring the upper echelon to Low 1-A instead of just removing tier 0(If that were the case, the tier of the S.AT/UA would just be the highest level demonstrated, which was High 1-A before). Besides, the thread had enough people justifying (Low) 1-A abyss/dreamlands as far as I'm aware. I am fine with just removing old High 1-A/0 tags if they don't fit the current system though, and let supporters bring it back up to the old tiers.

Agree

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Yeah, that's what I said, I don't know if you're a supporter or not, but since the main issue is "globally" out of the way, people can always just make a subsequent thread to upgrade it if they feel like the rating Super_Nova proposes is too low. No point in going more and more pages.

I'm not, well "officially" speaking, nor do I intend to. Its better to just let mods view over arguments presented by all people present. But yeah its pretty much useless to argue on it anymore atp

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Should I summarize mine too regarding the gates being not dimensions? So people can read It and if they want eventual answer they can look up to our previous discussion?

Ok then here's the summary of the argument of why the gates are not actual spatial dimensions.

As First thing I have established, what carter wants to do with the silver Key aka opens the GATE of Dreams to return to his boyhood

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Post with 46 views.

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Then I said, this Is what happen in section 2 and at the start of section 3, where carter finally gets inside the dreamlands again(you can see that via how at the start of section 3 talks about that it's useless talking about what happen in our dreams in a prospective of waking life as our logic cannot explain which would also be consistent cuz you can't describe with our three-dimensional logic what Is Beyond all dimensions) and carter saying he previously used the Key to open the inner gate

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Post with 55 views.

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And I also said that "Absolute" in this case cannot refear to the ultimate abyss/archetype, cuz the statement Is litteraly carter talking and saying the only thing he wants Is that, so this Is not a forshadowing, how can carter intention be forshadowing as carter explicitly stated what he wants to reach.(+ The ultimate abyss/archetype Is never called like that in the story)

Also, I claimed that the existence alone of a gate prior to the First Will debunk the notion of them being actual spatial dimensions.
because if the gates were dimensioned, the inner gate should be 2D hence everything below the inner gate like the waking world is inherently below 2D. Even more so, the inner gate lead to the dreamlands, which dissolve all dimensions, but it is 2D? Even if you were to say:"The world of men and of the gods are 3D", it will follow the same problem. If the world of men and the gods is 3D than the phases of the inner gate are also spatial dimensions? Who actually has spatial dimensions?

Also as another proof, I sent a Scan regarding how the universe of Carter Is said to have infinite dimensions (ascarter conceptions of a three dimensional World Is said to be childish and limited and how there are infinite dimensions, which Will of course debunk the notion of Gates being dimensional)

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Post with 46 views.

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And how the outer extension aka the trans-dimensional extension of the earth outside time which can be reached unlocking the First gate also have outer statement, as It Is that undimensioned reality that surrounded carter and tries to translate itself to him(as litteraly the Just by looking at the Ancient one, carter links them with a bunch of images and Memories of earth) + carter in there having no form or position + the Ancient ones being stated to be far outside merely physical being(I forgot to put the Scan but if someone of you want I can put the copy and paste)

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P.s I am putting the scans just to make this summary more complete, but anyway I do agree that High 1A and 0 key should be removed cuz the scaling that made them Is too old and prolly doesnt fit the standards, so I think the pages should be rated as outdated or Something like that.

P.s.s also Just to make anyone notice that, no statement like for example the illusionary nature of time and how it exists only for being in limited dimensions or "outside time and dimensions we know" logically limit that to be outside time you merely are higher Dimensional, it's a fallacious as reasoning and to check if It really Is, you Need the context which I provided in the summary(here)

 

[Re5yh]

Ok then here's the summary of the argument of why the gates are not actual spatial dimensions.

As First thing I have established, what carter wants to do with the silver Key aka opens the GATE of Dreams to return to his boyhood

Image Chest

Post with 46 views.

imgchest.com

Then I said, this Is what happen in section 2 and at the start of section 3, where carter finally gets inside the dreamlands again(you can see that via how at the start of section 3 talks about that it's useless talking about what happen in our dreams in a prospective of waking life as our logic cannot explain which would also be consistent cuz you can't describe with our three-dimensional logic what Is Beyond all dimensions) and carter saying he previously used the Key to open the inner gate

Image Chest

Post with 55 views.

imgchest.com

And I also said that "Absolute" in this case cannot refear to the ultimate abyss/archetype, cuz the statement Is litteraly carter talking and saying the only thing he wants Is that, so this Is not a forshadowing, how can carter intention be forshadowing as carter explicitly stated what he wants to reach.(+ The ultimate abyss/archetype Is never called like that in the story)

Also, I claimed that the existence alone of a gate prior to the First Will debunk the notion of them being actual spatial dimensions.
because if the gates were dimensioned, the inner gate should be 2D hence everything below the inner gate like the waking world is inherently below 2D. Even more so, the inner gate lead to the dreamlands, which dissolve all dimensions, but it is 2D? Even if you were to say:"The world of men and of the gods are 3D", it will follow the same problem. If the world of men and the gods is 3D than the phases of the inner gate are also spatial dimensions? Who actually has spatial dimensions?

Also as another proof, I sent a Scan regarding how the universe of Carter Is said to have infinite dimensions (ascarter conceptions of a three dimensional World Is said to be childish and limited and how there are infinite dimensions)

Image Chest

Post with 46 views.

imgchest.com

And how the outer extension aka the trans-dimensional extension of the earth outside time which can be reached unlocking the First gate also have outer statement, as It Is that undimensioned reality that surrounded carter and tries to translate itself to him(as litteraly the Just by looking at the Ancient one, carter links them with a bunch of images and Memories of earth) + carter in there having no form or position.

Image Chest

Post with 41 views.

imgchest.com

P.s I am putting the scans just to make this summary more complete, but anyway I do agree that High 1A and 0 key should be removed cuz the scaling that made them Is too old and prolly doesnt fit the standards, so I think the pages should be rated as outdated or Something like that.

AZATHOTH and Yog sothoth may not be High 1-A but Low 1-A I think, I can be neutral with it

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

AZATHOTH and Yog sothoth may not be High 1-A but Low 1-A I think, I can be neutral with it

As I said, my argument Is for debunking the notion of everything inverse capping at High 1B via debunking the notion of gates being dimensional cuz like I show the dreamlands in the same story has outer statement and even the outer extension does + a bunch of other stuff but the High outer and 0 key should be removed cuz the justifcation are too old and the verse needs a cosmology revamp.
Anyway gonna go off now

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, I am personally fine with this downgrade, but I am likely not a good person to evaluate this.

I think getting Ultima’s opinion would be best, since not only does he know the system best but he also scaled the verse in the first place.

Really no better person to settle the argument.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I think getting Ultima’s opinion would be best, since not only does he know the system best but he also scaled the verse in the first place.

Really no better person to settle the argument.

I mean.

 

[Re5yh]

I mean.

Toxic?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Toxic?

Epigram is Ultima’s discord

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

At what point do we just introduce seperate tags for seperate interpretations. I'm not sure if we really should wait for ultima due to him not being present right now, (or ever here by extension), and thus not having read the arguments already made. I think its more fair to let outside mods come to their own conclusions seeing all arguments from all sides.

 

[Mbpoops]

Should we really be using off site things for people’s votes? Itd better for him to say it here than on discord but eh idrc either way

 

[Hecky2222]

Should we really be using off site things for people’s votes? Itd better for him to say it here than on discord but eh idrc either way

he asked Ultima's opinion about it

it's not vote or whatsover so fair I think

 

[Mbpoops]

he asked Ultima's opinion about it

it's not vote or whatsover so fair I think

fair enough ig

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

he asked Ultima's opinion about it

it's not vote or whatsover so fair I think

The offsite question shouldn't count as a vote anyways as it was made before this thread(and before the given arguments).

 

[Re5yh]

The offsite question shouldn't count as a vote anyways as it was made before this thread(and before the given arguments).

I think I solved who this user is

 

[Mbpoops]

I think I solved who this user is

so is this ultima or not? either way the vote goes uncounted

 

[Re5yh]

so is this ultima or not? either way the vote goes uncounted

this is defintly not ultima (For Sure)