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The Most Racist Tier 0 is a BUM
- Thread starter SuperNova55555
- Start date
- Status
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So far the OP is the only one presenting s strong case. I was waiting on a supporter to respond, but at the moment I think their arguments make sense (but I'm not a big Cthulhu guy either).So what do you think that we should do here, Qawsedf234?
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Thank you for your evaluation.
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42
What do you think that we should do here?
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42
What do you think that we should do here?
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I disagree heavily with multiple, if not all claims made. I don't think this is the fault of the OP though, but rather the confusing nature in which H.P.L. chooses to write.
However, the chance is small or none that I will give my reasoning for it, since thats the job for supporters of the mythos. My reasons for disagreeing are linked to multiple misreadings of the text (TTGOTSK since its the only one used here), inconsistencies with other stories(even from the poetry!), and dare I say, the philosophy and letters of/from H.P.L.
Either way, I do agree with a removal of the tier 0 Azathoth key in favor for what the future holds. I am not going to discuss or debate it, as I said, that is for more knowledgeable people to do. Either way, I am following.
However, the chance is small or none that I will give my reasoning for it, since thats the job for supporters of the mythos. My reasons for disagreeing are linked to multiple misreadings of the text (TTGOTSK since its the only one used here), inconsistencies with other stories(even from the poetry!), and dare I say, the philosophy and letters of/from H.P.L.
Either way, I do agree with a removal of the tier 0 Azathoth key in favor for what the future holds. I am not going to discuss or debate it, as I said, that is for more knowledgeable people to do. Either way, I am following.
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ok so I have gathered some stuff to solidify outerversal tiers even more, had to go with a lot so if am wrong correct me
So I think there is a very solid reality over fiction here, which would be 1A
Everything in the Cthulhu Mythos contains the infinite time irrelevant multiverses within them, with an infinite amount of universes within those multiverses and worlds within worlds stacking up and down infinitely. above this there are infinte voids which trascends ''mathemathics''.
Even just the first gate ''trascends'' (if i understood correctly) everything above.
There is an infinite number of gates, All of them transcending each other to eternity.
them there is the ultimate void, which transcends all Gates.
working as ''archetypal infinity'' (idk what that is am ngl lmao)
Yog Realm is completely above all dimensioned space, time, existence, nonexistence, conceptions, physics, logic, etc. Which is above the void
and BEYOND everything here, there is ''god'', who trascend everything in the verse
Even just the first gate ''trascends'' (if i understood correctly) everything above.
There is an infinite number of gates, All of them transcending each other to eternity.
them there is the ultimate void, which transcends all Gates.
working as ''archetypal infinity'' (idk what that is am ngl lmao)
Yog Realm is completely above all dimensioned space, time, existence, nonexistence, conceptions, physics, logic, etc. Which is above the void
and BEYOND everything here, there is ''god'', who trascend everything in the verse
So I think there is a very solid reality over fiction here, which would be 1A
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This does not at all address the anti-feats.
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yep I saw that, we are cooked
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- Thread starter
- #89
None of this scales above the Low 1-A I’ve already proposed.
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https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/tgsk.aspx should be adressed here
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explain
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"erm just read the WHOLE thing trust me it totally cant be addressed with a few quotes"
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- Thread starter
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They’re just not 1-A feats bro. That’s all.
Re5yh
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Tell us why they are REALLY not 1-A feats
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- Thread starter
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Because all of those “transcendences” contain the last layer as parts of itself (not 1-A). Not to mention it’s js not tenable with the workings of the Archetype.
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mb, insane amounts of yap coming
each spatial dimension/space-continuum coexist with infinite higher and lower dimensions, and all of them are equally real and these dimensions coexist With infinite other dimensions and this continues forever, each space-continuum contains and transcends a minor cosmos into itself, and this continue infintie times.
''dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing - the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where 'Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality, and band thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key.
dimensions are also called "angles", and all the actions, even if they are small or sub-atomic, change all the angles and compose a more ''complex'' system of new angles.
''A slight change of angle could turn the student of today into the child of yesterday; could turn Randolph Carter into that wizard, Edmund Carter who fled from Salem to the hills behind Arkham in 1692, or that Pickman Carter who in the year 2169 would use strange means in repelling the Mongol hordes from Australia; could turn a human Carter into one of those earlier entities which had dwelt in primal Hyperborea and worshipped black, plastic Tsathoggua after flying down from Kythamil, the double planet that once revolved around Arcturus; could turn a terrestrial Carter to a remotely ancestral and doubtfully shaped dweller on Kythamil itself, or a still remoter creature of trans-galactic Stronti, or a four-dimensioned gaseous consciousness in an older space-time continuum, or a vegetable brain of the future on a dark, radioactive comet of inconceivable orbit - so on, in endless cosmic cycle.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
the structure that contains all these infinite space-continuums is just an atom in an infintie sea called super cosmos
''Then the waves increased in strength and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infini- tesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the inter- section by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension - as a square is cut from a cube, or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensi- ons, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions, which men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five di- mensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinite- simal thing the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where 'Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality, and band thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
the ''super cosmos'' view each other as ephimeral illusions:
"Surely you are a god?" said Kull curiously. "The mere accumulation of knowledge and the acquiring of wisdom does not make a god," answered the other rather impatiently. "Look!" A shadowy hand pointed toward the great blazing
gems which were the stars. Kull looked and saw that they were changing swiftly. A constant weaving, an incessant changing of design and pattern was taking place. "The 'everlasting' stars change in their own time, as swiftly as the races of men rise and fade. Even as we watch, upon those which are planets, beings are rising from the slime of the primeval, are climbing up the long slow roads to culture and wisdom, and are being destroyed with their dying worlds. All life and a part of life. To them it seems billions of years; to us, but a moment. All life."
Kull watched, fascinated, as huge stars and mighty constellations blazed and waned and faded, while others equally as radiant took their places, to be in turn supplanted.
Then suddenly the hot red darkness flowed over him again, blotting out all the stars. As through a thick fog,
"There are worlds beyond worlds, universes within and without universes," said the ancient. "You are upon a different planet than that upon which you were born; you are in a different universe, doubtless in different dimension," a
"Then I am certainly dead."
"What is death but a traversing of eternities and a crossing of cosmic oceans? But I have not said that you are dead."
"Then where in Valka's name am I?" roared Kull, his short stock of patience exhausted. "Your barbarian brain clutches at material actualities," answered the other tranquilly. "What does it matter where you are, or whether you are dead, as you call it? You are a part of that great ocean which is Life, which washes upon all shores, and you are as much a part of it in one place as in another, and as sure to eventually flow back to the Source of it, which gave birth to all Life. As for that, you are bound to Life for all Eternity as surely as a tree, a rock, a bird or a world is bound. You call leaving your tiny planet, quitting your crude physical form-death!"
"But I still have my body."
I have said that there were things in some of Akeley‘s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation.
"All is illusion," Kuthulos was saying. "All outward manifestations of the underlying Reality, which is beyond human comprehension, since there are no relative things by which the finite mind may measure the infinite. The one may underlie all, or each natural illusion may possess a basic entity. All these things were known to Raama, the greatest mind of all the ages, who eons ago freed humanity from the grasp of unknown demons and raised the race to its heights." -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
Each universe contains infinite super cosmos stacked on top of each other (One universal layer= super-cosmos)
''Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantagepoint he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farm-house in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the Presence in the limitless abyss, and all the other Carters his fancy or perception envisaged.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
Literally an infinite hierarchy of universes
''Moreover, we know that a cosmos which is eternal (and any other kind would be a paradoxical impossibility) can have no such thing as a permanent direction or goal; since such would imply a beginning and ending, thus postulating a larger creating and managing cosmos outside this one-and so on ad infinitum like a nest of Chinese boxes.'' -you already know lmao
a ''universe above all others''.
the great old Ones are so above all this that things below them couldnt even interact With them.
The great old Ones are above the voids that are above the things i mentioned, also the void encapsulate each other
An infinite hierarchy of great old Ones
These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood.
They had shape—for did not this star-fashioned image prove it?—but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R‘lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them. But at that time some force from outside must serve to liberate Their bodies. The spells that preserved Them intact likewise prevented Them from making an initial move, and They could only lie awake in the dark and think whilst uncounted millions of years rolled by. They knew all that was occurring in the universe, but Their mode of speech was transmitted thought. Even now They talked in Their tombs. When, after infinities of chaos, the first men came, the Great Old Ones spoke to the sensitive among them by moulding their dreams; for only thus could Their language reach the fleshly minds of mammals.
Without knowing what futurism is like, Johansen achieved something very close to it when he spoke of the city; for instead of describing any definite structure or building, he dwells only on broad impressions of vast angles and stone surfaces—surfaces too great to belong to any thing right or proper for this earth, and impious with horrible images and hieroglyphs. I mention his talk about angles because it suggests something Wilcox had told me of his awful dreams. He had said that the geometry of the dream-place he saw was abnormal, non-Euclidean, and loathsomely redolent of spheres and dimensions apart from ours. Now an unlettered seaman felt the same thing whilst gazing at the terrible reality.
As it was, lacking their original letters, I half suspected the compiler of having asked leading questions, or of having edited the correspondence in corroboration of what he had latently resolved to see. That is why I continued to feel that Wilcox, somehow cognisant of the old data which my uncle had possessed, had been imposing on the veteran scientist. These responses from aesthetes told a disturbing tale. From February 28th to April 2nd a large proportion of them had dreamed very bizarre things, the intensity of the dreams being immeasurably the stronger during the period of the sculptor‘s delirium. Over a fourth of those who reported anything, reported scenes and half-sounds not unlike those which Wilcox had described; and some of the dreamers confessed acute fear of the gigantic nameless thing visible toward the last. One case, which the note describes with emphasis, was very sad. The subject, a widely known architect with leanings toward theosophy and occultism, went violently insane on the date of young Wilcox‘s seizure, and expired several months later after incessant screamings to be saved from some escaped denizen of hell. Had my uncle referred to these cases by name instead of merely by number, I should have attempted some corroboration and personal investigation; but as it was, I succeeded in tracing down only a few. All of these, however, bore out the notes in full. I have often wondered if all the objects of the professor‘s questioning felt as puzzled as did this fraction.
From Dunedin the Alert and her noisome crew had darted eagerly forth as if imperiously summoned, and on the other side of the earth poets and artists had begun to dream of a strange, dank Cyclopean city whilst a young sculptor had moulded in his sleep the form of the dreaded Cthulhu. March 23d the crew of the Emma landed on an unknown island and left six men dead; and on that date the dreams of sensitive men assumed a heightened vividness and darkened with dread of a giant monster‘s malign pursuit, whilst an architect had gone mad and a sculptor had lapsed suddenly into delirium! And what of this storm of April 2nd—the date on which all dreams of the dank city ceased, and Wilcox emerged unharmed from the bondage of strange fever? What of all this—and of those hints of old Castro about the sunken, star-born Old Ones and their coming reign; their faithful cult and their mastery of dreams? Was I tottering on the brink of cosmic horrors beyond man‘s power to bear? If so, they must be horrors of the mind alone, for in some way the second of April had put a stop to whatever monstrous menace had begun its siege of mankind‘s soul.
Slowly, amidst the distorted horrors of that indescribable scene, she began to churn the lethal waters; whilst on the masonry of that charnel shore that was not of earth the titan Thing from the stars slavered and gibbered like Polypheme cursing the fleeing ship of Odysseus. Then, bolder than the storied Cyclops, great Cthulhu slid greasily into the water and began to pursue with vast wave-raising strokes of cosmic potency. Briden looked back and went mad, laughing shrilly as he kept on laughing at intervals till death found him one night in the cabin whilst Johansen was wandering deliriously.
The youth's febrile mind, apparently, was dwelling on strange things; and the doctor shuddered now and then as he spoke of them. They included not only a repetition of what he had formerly dreamed, but touched wildly on a gigantic thing "miles high" which walked or lumbered about.
He at no time fully described this object but occasional frantic words, as repeated by Dr. Tobey, convinced the professor that it must be identical with the nameless monstrosity he had sought to depict in his dream-sculpture. Reference to this object, the doctor added, was invariably a prelude to the young man's subsidence into lethargy
Then, driven ahead by curiosity in their captured yacht under Johansen's command, the men sight a great stone pillar sticking out of the sea, and in S. Latitude 47°9', W. Longitude l23°43', come upon a coastline of mingled mud, ooze, and weedy Cyclopean masonry which can be nothing less than the tangible substance of earth's supreme terror--the nightmare corpse-city of R'lyeh, that was built in measureless aeons behind history by the vast, loathsome shapes that seeped down from the dark stars. There lay great Cthulhu and his hordes, hidden in green slimy vaults and sending out at last, after cycles incalculable, the thoughts that spread fear to the dreams of the sensitive and called imperiously to the faithful to come on a pilgrimage of liberation and restoration
- there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled. God! What wonder that across the earth a great architect went mad, and poor Wilcox raved with fever in that telepathic instant? The Thing of the idols, the green, sticky spawn of the stars, had awaked to claim his own. The stars were right again, and what an age-old cult had failed to do by design, a band of innocent sailors had done by accident. After vigintillions of years great Cthulhu was loose again, and ravening for delight.
But Johansen had not given out yet. Knowing that the Thing could surely overtake the Alert until steam was fully up, he resolved on a desperate chance; and, setting the engine for full speed, ran lightning-like on deck and reversed the wheel. There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where--God in heaven! --the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam.
Never was a sane man more dangerously close to the arcana of basic entity—never was an organic brain nearer to utter annihilation in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. I learned whence Cthulhu first came, and why half the great temporary stars of history had flared forth. I guessed—from hints which made even my informant pause timidly— the secret behind the Magellanic Clouds and globular nebulae, and the black truth veiled by the immemorial allegory of Tao.
It was curious to note from the pictured battles that both the Cthulhu spawn and the Mi-Go seem to have been composed of matter more widely different from that which we know than was the substance of the Old Ones. They were able to undergo transformations and reintegrations impossible for their adversaries, and seem therefore to have originally come from even remoter gulfs of cosmic space. The Old Ones, but for their abnormal toughness and peculiar vital properties, were strictly material, and must have had their absolute origin within the known space-time continuum; whereas the first sources of the other beings can only be guessed at with bated breath. All this, of course, assuming that the non-terrestrial linkages and the anomalies ascribed to the invading foes are not pure mythology.
Conceivably, the Old Ones might have invented a cosmic framework to account for their occasional defeats; since historical interest and pride obviously formed their chief psychological element. It is significant that their annals failed to mention many advanced and potent races of beings whose mighty cultures and towering cities figure persistently in certain obscure legends. diffrent sources: The Call of Cthulhu, At the Mountains of Madness
''dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing - the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where 'Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality, and band thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key.
dimensions are also called "angles", and all the actions, even if they are small or sub-atomic, change all the angles and compose a more ''complex'' system of new angles.
''A slight change of angle could turn the student of today into the child of yesterday; could turn Randolph Carter into that wizard, Edmund Carter who fled from Salem to the hills behind Arkham in 1692, or that Pickman Carter who in the year 2169 would use strange means in repelling the Mongol hordes from Australia; could turn a human Carter into one of those earlier entities which had dwelt in primal Hyperborea and worshipped black, plastic Tsathoggua after flying down from Kythamil, the double planet that once revolved around Arcturus; could turn a terrestrial Carter to a remotely ancestral and doubtfully shaped dweller on Kythamil itself, or a still remoter creature of trans-galactic Stronti, or a four-dimensioned gaseous consciousness in an older space-time continuum, or a vegetable brain of the future on a dark, radioactive comet of inconceivable orbit - so on, in endless cosmic cycle.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
the structure that contains all these infinite space-continuums is just an atom in an infintie sea called super cosmos
''Then the waves increased in strength and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infini- tesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the inter- section by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension - as a square is cut from a cube, or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensi- ons, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions, which men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five di- mensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinite- simal thing the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where 'Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality, and band thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
the ''super cosmos'' view each other as ephimeral illusions:
"Surely you are a god?" said Kull curiously. "The mere accumulation of knowledge and the acquiring of wisdom does not make a god," answered the other rather impatiently. "Look!" A shadowy hand pointed toward the great blazing
gems which were the stars. Kull looked and saw that they were changing swiftly. A constant weaving, an incessant changing of design and pattern was taking place. "The 'everlasting' stars change in their own time, as swiftly as the races of men rise and fade. Even as we watch, upon those which are planets, beings are rising from the slime of the primeval, are climbing up the long slow roads to culture and wisdom, and are being destroyed with their dying worlds. All life and a part of life. To them it seems billions of years; to us, but a moment. All life."
Kull watched, fascinated, as huge stars and mighty constellations blazed and waned and faded, while others equally as radiant took their places, to be in turn supplanted.
Then suddenly the hot red darkness flowed over him again, blotting out all the stars. As through a thick fog,
"There are worlds beyond worlds, universes within and without universes," said the ancient. "You are upon a different planet than that upon which you were born; you are in a different universe, doubtless in different dimension," a
"Then I am certainly dead."
"What is death but a traversing of eternities and a crossing of cosmic oceans? But I have not said that you are dead."
"Then where in Valka's name am I?" roared Kull, his short stock of patience exhausted. "Your barbarian brain clutches at material actualities," answered the other tranquilly. "What does it matter where you are, or whether you are dead, as you call it? You are a part of that great ocean which is Life, which washes upon all shores, and you are as much a part of it in one place as in another, and as sure to eventually flow back to the Source of it, which gave birth to all Life. As for that, you are bound to Life for all Eternity as surely as a tree, a rock, a bird or a world is bound. You call leaving your tiny planet, quitting your crude physical form-death!"
"But I still have my body."
I have said that there were things in some of Akeley‘s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation.
"All is illusion," Kuthulos was saying. "All outward manifestations of the underlying Reality, which is beyond human comprehension, since there are no relative things by which the finite mind may measure the infinite. The one may underlie all, or each natural illusion may possess a basic entity. All these things were known to Raama, the greatest mind of all the ages, who eons ago freed humanity from the grasp of unknown demons and raised the race to its heights." -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
Each universe contains infinite super cosmos stacked on top of each other (One universal layer= super-cosmos)
''Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantagepoint he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farm-house in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the Presence in the limitless abyss, and all the other Carters his fancy or perception envisaged.'' -Through the Gates of the Silver Key
Literally an infinite hierarchy of universes
''Moreover, we know that a cosmos which is eternal (and any other kind would be a paradoxical impossibility) can have no such thing as a permanent direction or goal; since such would imply a beginning and ending, thus postulating a larger creating and managing cosmos outside this one-and so on ad infinitum like a nest of Chinese boxes.'' -you already know lmao
a ''universe above all others''.
the great old Ones are so above all this that things below them couldnt even interact With them.
The great old Ones are above the voids that are above the things i mentioned, also the void encapsulate each other
An infinite hierarchy of great old Ones
These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood.
They had shape—for did not this star-fashioned image prove it?—but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R‘lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them. But at that time some force from outside must serve to liberate Their bodies. The spells that preserved Them intact likewise prevented Them from making an initial move, and They could only lie awake in the dark and think whilst uncounted millions of years rolled by. They knew all that was occurring in the universe, but Their mode of speech was transmitted thought. Even now They talked in Their tombs. When, after infinities of chaos, the first men came, the Great Old Ones spoke to the sensitive among them by moulding their dreams; for only thus could Their language reach the fleshly minds of mammals.
Without knowing what futurism is like, Johansen achieved something very close to it when he spoke of the city; for instead of describing any definite structure or building, he dwells only on broad impressions of vast angles and stone surfaces—surfaces too great to belong to any thing right or proper for this earth, and impious with horrible images and hieroglyphs. I mention his talk about angles because it suggests something Wilcox had told me of his awful dreams. He had said that the geometry of the dream-place he saw was abnormal, non-Euclidean, and loathsomely redolent of spheres and dimensions apart from ours. Now an unlettered seaman felt the same thing whilst gazing at the terrible reality.
As it was, lacking their original letters, I half suspected the compiler of having asked leading questions, or of having edited the correspondence in corroboration of what he had latently resolved to see. That is why I continued to feel that Wilcox, somehow cognisant of the old data which my uncle had possessed, had been imposing on the veteran scientist. These responses from aesthetes told a disturbing tale. From February 28th to April 2nd a large proportion of them had dreamed very bizarre things, the intensity of the dreams being immeasurably the stronger during the period of the sculptor‘s delirium. Over a fourth of those who reported anything, reported scenes and half-sounds not unlike those which Wilcox had described; and some of the dreamers confessed acute fear of the gigantic nameless thing visible toward the last. One case, which the note describes with emphasis, was very sad. The subject, a widely known architect with leanings toward theosophy and occultism, went violently insane on the date of young Wilcox‘s seizure, and expired several months later after incessant screamings to be saved from some escaped denizen of hell. Had my uncle referred to these cases by name instead of merely by number, I should have attempted some corroboration and personal investigation; but as it was, I succeeded in tracing down only a few. All of these, however, bore out the notes in full. I have often wondered if all the objects of the professor‘s questioning felt as puzzled as did this fraction.
From Dunedin the Alert and her noisome crew had darted eagerly forth as if imperiously summoned, and on the other side of the earth poets and artists had begun to dream of a strange, dank Cyclopean city whilst a young sculptor had moulded in his sleep the form of the dreaded Cthulhu. March 23d the crew of the Emma landed on an unknown island and left six men dead; and on that date the dreams of sensitive men assumed a heightened vividness and darkened with dread of a giant monster‘s malign pursuit, whilst an architect had gone mad and a sculptor had lapsed suddenly into delirium! And what of this storm of April 2nd—the date on which all dreams of the dank city ceased, and Wilcox emerged unharmed from the bondage of strange fever? What of all this—and of those hints of old Castro about the sunken, star-born Old Ones and their coming reign; their faithful cult and their mastery of dreams? Was I tottering on the brink of cosmic horrors beyond man‘s power to bear? If so, they must be horrors of the mind alone, for in some way the second of April had put a stop to whatever monstrous menace had begun its siege of mankind‘s soul.
Slowly, amidst the distorted horrors of that indescribable scene, she began to churn the lethal waters; whilst on the masonry of that charnel shore that was not of earth the titan Thing from the stars slavered and gibbered like Polypheme cursing the fleeing ship of Odysseus. Then, bolder than the storied Cyclops, great Cthulhu slid greasily into the water and began to pursue with vast wave-raising strokes of cosmic potency. Briden looked back and went mad, laughing shrilly as he kept on laughing at intervals till death found him one night in the cabin whilst Johansen was wandering deliriously.
The youth's febrile mind, apparently, was dwelling on strange things; and the doctor shuddered now and then as he spoke of them. They included not only a repetition of what he had formerly dreamed, but touched wildly on a gigantic thing "miles high" which walked or lumbered about.
He at no time fully described this object but occasional frantic words, as repeated by Dr. Tobey, convinced the professor that it must be identical with the nameless monstrosity he had sought to depict in his dream-sculpture. Reference to this object, the doctor added, was invariably a prelude to the young man's subsidence into lethargy
Then, driven ahead by curiosity in their captured yacht under Johansen's command, the men sight a great stone pillar sticking out of the sea, and in S. Latitude 47°9', W. Longitude l23°43', come upon a coastline of mingled mud, ooze, and weedy Cyclopean masonry which can be nothing less than the tangible substance of earth's supreme terror--the nightmare corpse-city of R'lyeh, that was built in measureless aeons behind history by the vast, loathsome shapes that seeped down from the dark stars. There lay great Cthulhu and his hordes, hidden in green slimy vaults and sending out at last, after cycles incalculable, the thoughts that spread fear to the dreams of the sensitive and called imperiously to the faithful to come on a pilgrimage of liberation and restoration
- there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled. God! What wonder that across the earth a great architect went mad, and poor Wilcox raved with fever in that telepathic instant? The Thing of the idols, the green, sticky spawn of the stars, had awaked to claim his own. The stars were right again, and what an age-old cult had failed to do by design, a band of innocent sailors had done by accident. After vigintillions of years great Cthulhu was loose again, and ravening for delight.
But Johansen had not given out yet. Knowing that the Thing could surely overtake the Alert until steam was fully up, he resolved on a desperate chance; and, setting the engine for full speed, ran lightning-like on deck and reversed the wheel. There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where--God in heaven! --the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam.
Never was a sane man more dangerously close to the arcana of basic entity—never was an organic brain nearer to utter annihilation in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. I learned whence Cthulhu first came, and why half the great temporary stars of history had flared forth. I guessed—from hints which made even my informant pause timidly— the secret behind the Magellanic Clouds and globular nebulae, and the black truth veiled by the immemorial allegory of Tao.
It was curious to note from the pictured battles that both the Cthulhu spawn and the Mi-Go seem to have been composed of matter more widely different from that which we know than was the substance of the Old Ones. They were able to undergo transformations and reintegrations impossible for their adversaries, and seem therefore to have originally come from even remoter gulfs of cosmic space. The Old Ones, but for their abnormal toughness and peculiar vital properties, were strictly material, and must have had their absolute origin within the known space-time continuum; whereas the first sources of the other beings can only be guessed at with bated breath. All this, of course, assuming that the non-terrestrial linkages and the anomalies ascribed to the invading foes are not pure mythology.
Conceivably, the Old Ones might have invented a cosmic framework to account for their occasional defeats; since historical interest and pride obviously formed their chief psychological element. It is significant that their annals failed to mention many advanced and potent races of beings whose mighty cultures and towering cities figure persistently in certain obscure legends. diffrent sources: The Call of Cthulhu, At the Mountains of Madness
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Can you point which part of this is beyond Low 1-A
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everything me thinks, but the low 1-A part is just a part of the infinte herarquie of the old ones. But atp am not understanding ur anti feats so we will need to wait till staff comes lmao.
edit: not mean to insult u ofc, its just I ain't understanding why u didnt adress the silver key novel
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Yea. I figured as much.
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can we tag staff or were they already tagged?
Re5yh
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We can't, only staff can ping staff
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also, can you downgrade genshin next? I just lost a 50 50
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Isn’t that already being done or smthn
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I think they getting low 2-c, they lost a couple planet ratings tho
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Bump
Udlmaster
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I'll throw in my two pennies since I was asked by two different people;
So I personally wouldn't read this as "Yog-Sothoth is limited in size to Time and Space" through the use of coterminous since another definition of coterminous is;
Likewise in the part you provided it does not imply that the Archetypal Infinity is something which is reachable. Indeed, it even says the opposite, that it is the;
And our conditions for 1-A and 0 is that they are not reachable from the bottom, so going by the text, it is unreachable even from these "slices".
The issue therefore that reality is a "slice" of the Archetypal Infinity isn't a concern because there are processes which goes unnamed which divide these.
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Ultimately, I don't discredit the OP's post, but I think there is probably much more to be done before a downgrade is to be considered since much of the text explains itself and remains inline with our own standards
This itself isn't referring to Yog-Sothoth necessarily, this is from Chapter 4 of "Through the Gates of the Silver Key" where Carter is facing Ego-death over seeing the myriad versions of himself which stem from his Archetype and while he's spiralling, the "presence" of Yog-Sothoth goes to him the "Force of personality" and it is that presence is with which
It's then the presence of which is identified as the famous "All-in-One and One-in-All". Likewise, we do find out later that the Presence is himself, his Archetypal Self who's origin (derivation) is the Supreme Archetype.
So I personally wouldn't read this as "Yog-Sothoth is limited in size to Time and Space" through the use of coterminous since another definition of coterminous is;
Which aligns very much with what we know of Yog-Sothoth and the Archetypes. It also quickly goes onto describe this presence;
So I think it's clear to see by the following paragraph that "Yog-Sothoth" is not meant to be identified with Space-Time and is unbounded from it and that this entity isn't Yog-Sothoth (the Supreme Archetype) but is an Archetype (Carter's) which itself is unbounded from Space and Time.
It strikes me that the slice is an analogy because near the end as Carter's view is expanding we're told that parts of Creation from some "inconceivable vantagepoint" (most likely the Ultimate Void) has;
And if you're wondering if this only means 3-D, the passage before this already blew apart Carter's ideas of a simple 3-D reality;
So it's absolutely is referring to things from which no slices or division would constitute a higher reality.
Likewise in the part you provided it does not imply that the Archetypal Infinity is something which is reachable. Indeed, it even says the opposite, that it is the;
And our conditions for 1-A and 0 is that they are not reachable from the bottom, so going by the text, it is unreachable even from these "slices".
However, it does seem to imply that, as in the passage where Yog-Sothoth is filling Carter with knowledge we're told the World of Man is mere shadow and illusions meanwhile the dreams of the Ancient Ones and their thoughts are substance and reality.
And the reason why, as explained in the following paragraphs is because they are free of partial and local views. They do not even engage with reality like men do, but not because reality is eternalistic, but instead because these beings are so totally beyond the limited perceptions of man that what man clings to is illusion;
It does not necessarily state that Dimensions are constituents of the archetypal Infinity directly, but that some process occurs between dimensioned the Archetypal Infinity which creates Dimensioned space.
The issue therefore that reality is a "slice" of the Archetypal Infinity isn't a concern because there are processes which goes unnamed which divide these.
It is described as a unity when you approach Yog-Sothoth;
This is because of Uma at-Tawil preventing him from making this realisation that there is no differentiation to be made;
Carter himself even says that there is no differentiation to be made except by the "plane of Consciousness", which is to say, some phantom projections which are, as described earlier, unreality;
So there is no real "subject-object" division to be made except by the "phantom projections" of consciousness.
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Ultimately, I don't discredit the OP's post, but I think there is probably much more to be done before a downgrade is to be considered since much of the text explains itself and remains inline with our own standards
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wait yeah nova, the fragments ur reffering to are his avatars, the real god stats at the end of everything
edit: also the novel itself is here https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/tgsk.aspx , in case anyone wants to have a full context
edit: also the novel itself is here https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/tgsk.aspx , in case anyone wants to have a full context
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The text just says that it encompasses all things as omnipresent. I’m not sure if you’re taking “unbounded sweep” as literal but your interpretation is not what that is being implied by that part.
It has ‘no confines’ in the sense that he isn’t restricted to any particular part of totality. And the reason he is coterminous is because Yog-Sothoth’s border are the border of all things, which is exemplified to be the borders of Space and Time.
And transcendence over Space-Time here is derived from the fact that he cannot be restricted to any aforementioned part of Space-Time and instead encompasses it all. Think of it in a similar sense to is “space bound by space”. Yog-Sothoth goes a bit further than this by being undimensional as a whole, but it doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s being outreaches into Space-Time.
I’m very confused on what part of this ^
^ Lead to this.
The text is just exemplifying that he is confined to certain fragments of the Archetype due to his mind.
Never said it was reachable.
You’re just qualifying “unreachable” in ways that are just not necessitated.
Infinity is also considerably “unreachable” through finite operations of finite things.
Proper Classes are also “unreachable” through just, well, any operation.
The actual only difference between 1-A and Low 1-A is that the former does not have the lesser tiers as parts of itself, but functionally they are both just as inaccessible.
There’s just no reason for exaggerating the intent and implication of an obviously flowery statement.
What you highlighted literally says my interpretation word-for-word. All things already exist, and mortal men can only see a partial view of the totality, which is why change manifests.
This is the exact same thing with the cone analogy.
Yes. The process is called looking at the Archetype in slices. But that’s not something possible if the “slices” aren’t already parts of it. Otherwise there’d be no reason for Lovecraft to be so explicit about the fact past, present and future already existed.
It’s also the fact that you’re not supposed to analogize Tier 0 as a culminative process of withholding the last layer as an infinitesimal part of its whole. That’s structural complexity which isn’t something a Tier 0 is supposed to possess, as it contains all things in a partless unity, wherein all the “infinitesimal” constituents of it are just identical to the whole (which dissolves multiplicity).
The very fact that archetypal infinity is purposed as the endpoint of this process is enough reason to discredit Tier 0, all things considered.
Unity can mean a myriad of things. Including complex unities. But what Tier 0 wants here is one which dissolves multiplicity and Essence-Existence distinctions.
Which part of this is coherent with Tier 0… particularly the fact that the “frightful realization” which would split him up. If you imply that realization of undifferentiation means to actually be undifferentiated, then how would that allow a Tier 0 to exist?
Because at that level, a Tier 0s mental faculties are identical to it’s Being; so if you “think” as a Tier 0, then you are the Tier 0.
And I don’t need to tell you how union with a Tier 0 can’t result in division.
(Not that it isn’t generally incoherent for a pure Unity to invite instability like this, when all notions of reversion through the likes of contemplative knowledge [like in Neoplatonism] are just realizations of “pure clarity” as it is to say)
Ok? But that’s not the subject-object unity I’m talking about.
A Tier 0’s subject-object unity comes from the fact that it’s mind is just its existence itself. And this is meant to be taken completely literally, because a Tier 0s self-reflexivity is a realization that it’s experience is literally itself.
Are these so-called “phantom slices” also Yog-Sothoth? I’m not saying whether or not they are parts of Yog-Sothoth, but whether they are literally the Archetype itself. Not to mention that even if you claim they are, it won’t change anything because you can’t have “different views” of a Tier 0, because that just means that there’s 2 Tier 0s now.
Heck, you can even resolve subject-object division as a 4-dimensional being because you’d be experiencing all temporal slices of yourself simultaneously.
For Yog-Sothoth, this is just resolved by it being an unchanging whole, but as it’s been said, that is not what is being cared about here. Even a conscious Space-Time looking at itself would dissolve subject-objects distinctions (Hint: This is functionally what Yog-Sothoth is)
Which is why, when you say this:
Please realize that you didn’t actually address the glaring issue at hand; that you are capable of perceiving the Archetype in limited phenomenological slices.
Nevertheless, I do want to say that in general I notice among a lot of Lovecraft scalers the incentive to misrepresent the intent of Lovecraft in his text, which leads to completely unfounded complexity of his work, especially in a holistic sense. Particularly I see this happen as a result of him using rather expressive language, which is therein repurposed in order to skew the meaning of the more rigid and explicit parts of the work, rather than being interpreted alongside it.
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Even my goat super nova got confused with Lovecraft greatness 
, either way am neutral for now, leaning towards disagree.
, either way am neutral for now, leaning towards disagree.
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Only confused insofar as the conclusion Udl was making didn’t seem to follow. Lovecraft is actually pretty simple when you read it in context.Even my goat super nova got confused with Lovecraft greatness
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Personally his works lowkey gave me a mind **** especially with the call of Cthulhu, he was goated writing horror icl
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Well from the text I’ve read it wasn’t allat bad aside from the excessive verbiage that he uses. But that’s moreso an issue of expression rather of intent (which was what my earlier comment was saying; maybe my statement was a it too general but it doesn’t matter, at least to the topic of the thread)
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oh brother
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Ok, I want to answer to the claim that It has been made regarding "gates are spatial dimensions" so like the whole hierarchy Is High 1B with the ultimate abyss being low outer.
First of all we need to understand why carter wants to use the silver Key, and that Would be to get past the GATE of Dreams and finally return to his boyhood.
This Is Something that happen in section 2 and the start of section 3(I call them section) where carter Is able to get inside his boyhood again, the place where all dimensions dissolve, which Is confirmed at the start of section 3 with how the story says "it's useless to describe dreams with our waking Logic" Carter also explicitly says that he used the silver key to open the inner gate.
Now I can predict what someone Will try to Say "the place where all dimensions dissolve Is the Absolute(ultimate abyss/archetypes) not the dreamlands"....wrong, in the same section(2) we know what carter wants to do aka finally return to his boyhood, why the hell he would want to return to the archetypes/ultimate abyss? And besides the ultimate abyss/archetypes is never called the "Absolute" in the story and coming back to the previous point, how can carter wish to return to a place he Is never been before? So yes the "absolute" here talks about the dreamlands Nothing more.
The existence alone of a gate prior to the First debunk the notion of Gates being actual spatial dimensions and not merely analogies cuz if the gates are actually dimensions then by archetypal infinity Logic the inner gate Is 2D(as the inner gate would be cut by the First gate)and everything below Is not even 2D, which Is Simply not possible.
Also as a bonus,we have a statement here that specifically talks about the universe and how It has infinite dimensions(as litteraly carter conceptions of a three dimensional World Is said to be childish and limited and how there are infinite dimensions) so another point.
And btw even the outer extension has outerversal statement( that trans-dimensional extension of the earth which is outside time that it's stated to be undimensioned) so yet again another point
https://imgchest.com/p/5xy2nbd63yl
Now I Will answer some of the other thing in the thread.
Due to what I said above, yog Is not an eternalist universe as again the cosmology prior to the ultimate gate the cosmology Is already above all of space and time, and the other scan regarding yog being "coterminous with space and time" cuz he Is space and time, it's wrong cuz a line After It in the actual "description of yog sothoth" it's said he Is "not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike." And at the end of all of this even these conceptions (which include yog sothoth mind you which Is important) are too small to describe It, so the archetype Is definitly not Just "space and time".
Another thing It should be addressed Is "change"
"Which mind you, “illusion” here doesn’t mean that the slices themselves are ontically non-existent, but rather that merely the perceived change is."
Not really, the slices ARE the change cuz the looking of the cone SEEMS to create change but It doesnt as the reason why everything local is unreal or illusion Is people thinking of looking at different "shapes",but in actuality they are looking at the cone regardless so there Is no part-whole relationship to talk about, as the parts are actually Just the whole seen from a finite prospective and I Dont think it's a disqualifier, finite beings(even Randolph carter Beyond the ultimate gate Is) cannot see the entirety of the cone in the same way in no metaphysical view humans can view God in his entirety even in those where humans are identical to him(pure act etc) unless explicited stated otherwise but I am not an Expert on tier 0 and my main problem Is the notion of " Gates being dimensioned"
For the subject-object relationship, I think it's pretty much topic of the "part-whole" thing, cuz as explained previously with change, in the archetypes there Is no such duality as for It the part=whole(and all prospective of lower being are Just looking at the cone anyway with all different shapes being mere illusions)but I think there should be a second thread for where supporter actually propose the tier 0 stuff or whatever really, cuz I Dont really care about the tier 0 rating.
Too lazy to bring scans even for this so
P.s tell me If the link works, I didnt use imgur cuz for me It was crushing and also I am writting this all in one go so I Dont even know if I answer everything but like my main problem Is with the claim of the gates, I care a Little of tier 0 rating in this Moment.
First of all we need to understand why carter wants to use the silver Key, and that Would be to get past the GATE of Dreams and finally return to his boyhood.
This Is Something that happen in section 2 and the start of section 3(I call them section) where carter Is able to get inside his boyhood again, the place where all dimensions dissolve, which Is confirmed at the start of section 3 with how the story says "it's useless to describe dreams with our waking Logic" Carter also explicitly says that he used the silver key to open the inner gate.
Now I can predict what someone Will try to Say "the place where all dimensions dissolve Is the Absolute(ultimate abyss/archetypes) not the dreamlands"....wrong, in the same section(2) we know what carter wants to do aka finally return to his boyhood, why the hell he would want to return to the archetypes/ultimate abyss? And besides the ultimate abyss/archetypes is never called the "Absolute" in the story and coming back to the previous point, how can carter wish to return to a place he Is never been before? So yes the "absolute" here talks about the dreamlands Nothing more.
The existence alone of a gate prior to the First debunk the notion of Gates being actual spatial dimensions and not merely analogies cuz if the gates are actually dimensions then by archetypal infinity Logic the inner gate Is 2D(as the inner gate would be cut by the First gate)and everything below Is not even 2D, which Is Simply not possible.
Also as a bonus,we have a statement here that specifically talks about the universe and how It has infinite dimensions(as litteraly carter conceptions of a three dimensional World Is said to be childish and limited and how there are infinite dimensions) so another point.
https://imgchest.com/p/5xy2nbd63yl
Now I Will answer some of the other thing in the thread.
Due to what I said above, yog Is not an eternalist universe as again the cosmology prior to the ultimate gate the cosmology Is already above all of space and time, and the other scan regarding yog being "coterminous with space and time" cuz he Is space and time, it's wrong cuz a line After It in the actual "description of yog sothoth" it's said he Is "not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike." And at the end of all of this even these conceptions (which include yog sothoth mind you which Is important) are too small to describe It, so the archetype Is definitly not Just "space and time".
Another thing It should be addressed Is "change"
"Which mind you, “illusion” here doesn’t mean that the slices themselves are ontically non-existent, but rather that merely the perceived change is."
Not really, the slices ARE the change cuz the looking of the cone SEEMS to create change but It doesnt as the reason why everything local is unreal or illusion Is people thinking of looking at different "shapes",but in actuality they are looking at the cone regardless so there Is no part-whole relationship to talk about, as the parts are actually Just the whole seen from a finite prospective and I Dont think it's a disqualifier, finite beings(even Randolph carter Beyond the ultimate gate Is) cannot see the entirety of the cone in the same way in no metaphysical view humans can view God in his entirety even in those where humans are identical to him(pure act etc) unless explicited stated otherwise but I am not an Expert on tier 0 and my main problem Is the notion of " Gates being dimensioned"
For the subject-object relationship, I think it's pretty much topic of the "part-whole" thing, cuz as explained previously with change, in the archetypes there Is no such duality as for It the part=whole(and all prospective of lower being are Just looking at the cone anyway with all different shapes being mere illusions)but I think there should be a second thread for where supporter actually propose the tier 0 stuff or whatever really, cuz I Dont really care about the tier 0 rating.
Too lazy to bring scans even for this so
P.s tell me If the link works, I didnt use imgur cuz for me It was crushing and also I am writting this all in one go so I Dont even know if I answer everything but like my main problem Is with the claim of the gates, I care a Little of tier 0 rating in this Moment.
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Which scan says this.
It’s called basic foreshadowing. You’re supposed to read things in context, ya know.
Gee man. Both the Ultimate Abyss and the Absolute are called “undimensioned” in the same short story.
TOTALLY UNRELATED LOOL!!
Literal headcanon.
Dreamlands isn’t even mentioned in TTGOTSK, and we all know how inconsistent Lovecraft is across differing short stories.
Yes. Because the “waking world” humans perceive is a fragmentation of the Archetype.
The First Gate IS the Inner Gate
Also 3-D space is an infinitesimal part of the First Gate, so even if you create the distinction (which isn’t true) it still wouldn’t contradict anything
Yea. The High 1-B thing.
And if you say there are gates that transcend this, it’ll still be High 1-B since the Tier covers all higher cardinals as well.
The scan doesn’t say the outer extension is undimensioned but it’s foreshadowing the Ultimate Abyss.
Whole buncha meaningless yap, also:
“one Space-Time continuum”
That’s… part-whole relationship. The very fact they can even do this is the main disqualifier bro.
- Says there's no part-whole relationship but proceeds to describe part-whole relationship inline with the Aristotelian substance-particular relation.
Yeah, we can just wait for the staff to come evaluate. There's nothing much to respond to anymore thus far.
This is the issue big bro. You’re not supposed to be doing this with Tier 0.
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HOLY STRAWMAN of the scans
The section two which I provided scans says that
"He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."
This Is not forshadowing as the intention of Carter in this section Is litteraly to get inside the dreamlands again
"Certainly, he would rest that night in the lost boyhood for which he had never ceased to mourn."
You litteraly Just proved to me that you didnt even pay attention cuz the statement you are quoting
"What happened then is scarcely to be described in words. It is full of those paradoxes, contradictions, and anomalies which have no place in waking life, but which fill our more fantastic dreams, and are taken as matters of course till we return to our narrow, rigid, objective world of limited causation and tri-dimensional logic. As the Hindoo continued his tale, he had difficulty in avoiding what seemed—even more than the notion of a man transferred through the years to boyhood—an air of trivial, puerile extravagance. Mr. Aspinwall, in disgust, gave an apoplectic snort and virtually stopped listening."
Is litteraly at the start of section 3 where carter Is finally able to return to his boyhood hence why It says
" no Place in WAKING Life but fill our DREAMS"
It's not as like I provided the intention of Carter Is to open a GATE which leads to his boyhood.
It does create a contradiction cuz by archetypal infinity Logic which again Is Something lower Is cut by Something higher, the inner gate should be 2D which Is not true cuz that Would mean like carter and humans are 2D, and even if you want to Say "it's not the gates that are spatial dimensions but the world of men and gods" it's still a contradiction cuz then even the universe would be a 3D phase of the inner gate, so Who actually has spatial dimensions
If you concede this then It means that the gates are not spatial dimensions and Just analogies cuz how the hell can the First gate be 3D if the universe Is infinite dimensional?
So thanks for the concession Ig?
"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
"surrounded him" how the hell can be the ultimate abyss if rn he Is on the extension of the earth and litteraly It sorrounded him? It's not sensical
"It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are."
"yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are." Even the conceptions that carter Is saying rn are Just to small, all of them are so yes It includes being space and time and even previous description of yog(cuz he Is small conception) like that in dunwich horror but you get the point
Not really caring about tier 0 but the main problem I get Is saying that you should see him as entirety of the cone, but I am saying I Dont think it's a disqualifier for lower being not seeing the entirety of the cone, you Just need that in the prospective of the cone the parts are the whole, which Is Something that happen
What I said above
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See how it differentiates the Absolute from the other stuff?
3-dimensional space is an infinitesimal part of the place where he went to meet Tawil after opening the Inner Gate. There’s no contradiction there.
No?
Those infinite dimensions that the scan talks about are the ones Carter can’t perceive. Crossing the Gates is what allows one to progressively comprehend them. This is a basic reading of the text and the foreshadowing Lovecraft uses.
Do you think something omnipresent doesn’t surround physical reality?
“Conception” here just refers to the naming and representation of Yog-Sothoth from the various species, and how all of them don’t fully comprehend his magnitude.
Then why do you comment?
Because, this:
Just tells me you don’t understand what constitutes a Tier 0.
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Never heard of an apposition in grammatics?
Which would also makes sense cuz like I said in my very First message, how the hell carter WISH to return to a place he Is never been?(+ All the other yap in the First comment)
my sweet potato, the extension of the earth Is Beyond the First gate, carter unlock the First gate to get there.
If we intepret the world of men and the gods as 3D then the gate prior which Is separate the waking (world of men) and the dreamlands should be not even 2D AND the inner gate should also have a 3D universe has phase? Do you get the problem either the gates are dimensions like First gate Is 3D and this Is not possible via inner gate or the world of man and of the gods Is 3D but that Is also not possible cuz that Would mean that the inner gate has also 3D stuff and it's not possible.
Which obviosuly the text refear to the qualities cuz the conception of "yog sothoth" Is directly linked to be an all in one of space and time(dunwich horror)
I like to clear misconceptions and "yog sothoth Is coterminous with all of space and time cuz he Is Just that" Is one I actually understand the standard but I am specifically going against what you said cuz from my point of view it's strange that for example Thomas would Say "lower being can see God in its entirety" and not "from the prospective of god his parts(human and stuff )and him are equal" so like I am asking for Ig a line of Thomas or neoplatonism that says "oh ye the parts must be able to see God and nous(for neoplatonism) as whole without limitations"
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I forgot to answer this.
Are you litteraly ignoring that it's talking about what carter Is seeing in this extension of earth and how Is translating itself to him? It's talking about the extension this Is why at the end says "cuz no mind of earth can..." So pretty explicit I Would say
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