Asriel vs Kratos (0-4-10)

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

it only works when there is some inherent priority and heirarchy.

Yea, but otherwise you assume they exist as sorta co-equal but equally uninteractible and if you lose one building block of your being the others dont quite matter.

Weird because from my experience shit isn't like that


Hmmm no? Where did you get that idea? As an example of this match, Kratos regens thanks to his concept and Asriel nukes his ass again, repeat until my balls stop itching. Kratos wouldn't get some weird ass immunity or resistance to getting info nuked, he would just come back cuz concept is there.

Ok so how exactly is he getting his information back? Do we assume there's some superiority that allows concepts to regen their information? If they get their metaphysical information erased but come back from their concept then they basically lack information as it was fundamentally erased and their concept cant bring it back.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yea, but otherwise you assume they exist as sorta co-equal but equally uninteractible and if you lose one building block of your being the others dont quite matter.

Plot/meta/narrative is usually treated as superior. As info hax is described currently, it doesn't even hold candle to CM2, let alone CM1.
Unless the verse goes out of it's way to create it's own hierarchy of metaphysics, there is a default chain we follow or atleast used to in past.

body<mind(memory/emotion etc)~soul<info<~concept<~history<plot

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Ok so how exactly is he getting his information back? Do we assume there's some superiority that allows concepts to regen their information? If they get their metaphysical information erased but come back from their concept then they basically lack information as it was fundamentally erased and their concept cant bring it back.

we are back to what I said

Yeah his info 2 is gone but everything else is there, that should mean Kratos can come back because his concept still exists, right? Or does Info 2 suddenly become a higher/stronger kind of fundamental thing and suddenly negate his regenerative powers when it has never shown to do so?

This is one of those things that need a lot of debate and as you see both sides can argue what they think since there is no clear consensus on this shit

 

[Thermor]

Plot/meta/narrative is usually treated as superior. As info hax is described currently, it doesn't even hold candle to CM2, let alone CM1.
Unless the verse goes out of it's way to create it's own hierarchy of metaphysics, there is a default chain we follow or atleast used to in past.

body<mind(memory/emotion etc)~soul<info<~concept<~history<plot

This is such high leaps of logic, nowhere in the wiki state this.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Plot/meta/narrative is usually treated as superior. As info hax is described currently, it doesn't even hold candle to CM2, let alone CM1.
Unless the verse goes out of it's way to create it's own hierarchy of metaphysics, there is a default chain we follow or atleast used to in past.

body<mind(memory/emotion etc)~soul<info<~concept<~history<plot

There is explicitly no default hierarchy of metaphysical aspects though?

we are back to what I said

Yeah his info 2 is gone but everything else is there, that should mean Kratos can come back because his concept still exists, right? Or does Info 2 suddenly become a higher/stronger kind of fundamental thing and suddenly negate his regenerative powers when it has never shown to do so?

This is one of those things that need a lot of debate and as you see both sides can argue what they think since there is no clear consensus on this shit

Might need a thread clarifying this idk

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Plot/meta/narrative is usually treated as superior. As info hax is described currently, it doesn't even hold candle to CM2, let alone CM1.
Unless the verse goes out of it's way to create it's own hierarchy of metaphysics, there is a default chain we follow or atleast used to in past.

body<mind(memory/emotion etc)~soul<info<~concept<~history<plot

not anymore *****

info, concepts, laws, plot, history are all on the same level now

laws can't negate concepts, concepts can't negate plot, plot can't negate info, info can't negate laws and that applies to all of them with each other (unless the verse has some kind of stablished hierarchy think of the fake PoC scans)

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Looking at metaphysical aspects page an incon is probably 100% the case here considering this note

In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.

 

[Planck69]

There isn't an inherent hierarchy anymore. That said, even though information and concepts are on the same general field, there are different levels of concepts. One of them is bound to reality. Another is beyond it. And given information is ultimately a building block of reality, it seems a lot more on par with the former than the latter.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Now if I were to vote I would say incon.

Asriel would need to constantly nuke Kratos since he can't negate his concept based immortality, Kratos would only need to punch Asriel once to kill him. True reset is there but once again concept stuff (idk if this would work) and even if it did it would be back to step 1.

They can't kill each other and are in a perpetual state of trying to kill/preventing the other from doing anything

 

[chosen]

uhhh after finding more of conceptual vs info is treated on the wiki changing back to kratos

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Looking at metaphysical aspects page an incon is probably 100% the case here considering this note

Aha, I knew I wasn't remembering shit wrong

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

uhhh after finding more of conceptual vs info is treated on the wiki changing back to kratos

conceptual vs info isnt by default treated in any sort of way though

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

There isn't an inherent hierarchy anymore. Thag said, even though information and concepts are on the same general field, there are different levels of concepts. One of them is bound to reality. Another is beyond it. And given information is ultimately a building block of reality, it seems a lot more on par with the former than the latter.

hence

info<~concept

~ in case of CM2, < in case of CM1

 

[Thermor]

There isn't an inherent hierarchy anymore. Thag said, even though information and concepts are on the same general field, there are different levels of concepts. One of them is bound to reality. Another is beyond it. And given information is ultimately a building block of reality, it seems a lot more on par with the former than the latter.

According to the metaphysical page:
Plot = Info 2 = CM3
Plot = Info 2 = CM2
Plot = Info 2 = CM1
CM1 > CM2 > CM3

If you have disagreements, you may make a staff thread about it.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This stuff is kinda ***** and DT actually has said that CM2 and 1 are completely different metaphysical aspects outside of equalization now that I think of it (???)

https://vsbattles.com/members/donttalkdt.1149/#:~:text=with%20a%20few-,layers,-of%20concept%20manip

 

[Planck69]

According to the metaphysical page:
Plot = Info 2 = CM3
Plot = Info 2 = CM2
Plot = Info 2 = CM1
CM1 > CM2 > CM3

If you have disagreements, you may make a staff thread about it.

There's no such distinction between types on that page. The page itself says that when it comes to actual comparisons, case-by-case discretion is advised.

I made my case about it. You are welcome to address and counter my logic at your leisure.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/127868/

I have asked DT, lets see what he says.

 

[Planck69]

This entire thing made me realize that the Metaphysical Aspects page kinda sucks. So far the only response to my comparisons have been "look at the page".

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Since Chosen changed their vote, grace has been nullified.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This entire thing made me realize that the Metaphysical Aspects page kinda sucks. So far the only response to my comparisons have been "look at the page".

It's legitimately a nothingburger guide which creates more confusion than solve, It just heavy handedly equates everything as equivalent or "vague unknown". It's not a proper guide and fails to be brave to address some FAQs.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It's legitimately a nothingburger guide which creates more confusion than solve, It just heavy handedly equates everything as equivalent or "vague unknown". It's not a proper guide and fails to be brave to address some FAQs.

welcum to vs battles, shit is always more confusing than it needs to be cuz we are nerds


grace for incon btw

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Entropy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Entropy is a scientific concept, most commonly associated with states of disorder, randomness, or uncertainty. The term and the concept are used in diverse fields, from classical thermodynamics, where it was first recognized, to the microscopic description of nature in statistical physics, and to the principles of information theory. It has found far-ranging applications in chemistry and physics, in biological systems and their relation to life, in cosmology, economics, and information systems including the transmission of information in telecommunication.[1]

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

after seeing both side arguments i have to go with krato

 

[AigerTheKing]

Icon FRA

 

[Kellex]

I also vote for incon

 

[God_of_perversion]

Th

Given he didn't do this in the one actual battle he has, I somehow doubt that. He's definitely using that eventually though.

That was his canon first move but Frisk had the same determination as him so he couldn't use it

 

[God_of_perversion]

Any way i'm not reading 8 pages,can Kratos resist info2 erasure?

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah I gotta go with Sans FRA here

 

[God_of_perversion]

Asriel would need to constantly nuke Kratos since he can't negate his concept based immortality, Kratos would only need to punch Asriel once to kill him. True reset is there but once again concept stuff (idk if this would work) and even if it did it would be back to step 1.

Thats not how it works after a metaphysical aspect of yours has been erased you NEED to regenarate it to keep existing (unless you have nep of said aspect of course) kratos may have immo because of his concept but that doesn't mean hgr on info2
As the metaphysical aspect page states no metaphysical aspect is by default superior to another and thus for Kratos cm immortality to work on info2 erasure it would need to be show to be able to do such a thing if not its a NLF

 

[God_of_perversion]

Plot/meta/narrative is usually treated as superior. As info hax is described currently, it doesn't even hold candle to CM2, let alone CM1.
Unless the verse goes out of it's way to create it's own hierarchy of metaphysics, there is a default chain we follow or atleast used to in past.

body<mind(memory/emotion etc)~soul<info<~concept<~history<plot

Thats just not true and thats comum knowlodge

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plot/meta/narrative is usually treated as superior. As info hax is described currently, it doesn't even hold candle to CM2, let alone CM1.
Unless the verse goes out of it's way to create it's own hierarchy of metaphysics, there is a default chain we follow or atleast used to in past.

body<mind(memory/emotion etc)~soul<info<~concept<~history<plot

"Yeah let's make Info 2 the black sheep when all the other metaphysical aspects are treated as equal" no bias here.

 

[God_of_perversion]

To further explain how metaphysical aspect work i will use hgr as a example,every character is assumed to be defined by all metaphysical aspect by default,regenerating from one such aspect is called hgr for example regenerating from cm1 erasure is indexed as highly godly [concept type 1] but regenarating from a metaphysical aspect doesn't mean regenerating from every single one,for example cm1 regeneration can't regenerate info2 erasure and info2 regeneration can't regen from plot erasure.Does that mean cm1<info2<plot? No because metaphysical aspects are treated as equal in importance of existence and thus regenartion from a certain metaphysical aspect doesn't mean the regenaration from another (unless a verse states otherwise)

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That metaphysics page sucks ass. I go off of definitions of info, CM and stuff on their page.

 

[Hecky2222]

Ye Asriel has Im Type 2 and Kratonks has CM Type 1. Basically whole match is who shoots first. This is incon for me

 

[God_of_perversion]

Asr

Ye Asriel has Im Type 2 and Kratonks has CM Type 1. Basically whole match is who shoots first. This is incon for me

Asriel's canon first move is tought based info2 erasure and that was against some one they tought it was their brother,he is definately pulling the trigger first

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Thats not how it works after a metaphysical aspect of yours has been erased you NEED to regenarate it to keep existing (unless you have nep of said aspect of course) kratos may have immo because of his concept but that doesn't mean hgr on info2
As the metaphysical aspect page states no metaphysical aspect is by default superior to another and thus for Kratos cm immortality to work on info2 erasure it would need to be show to be able to do such a thing if not its a NLF

we are back to what I said

Yeah his info 2 is gone but everything else is there, that should mean Kratos can come back because his concept still exists, right? Or does Info 2 suddenly become a higher/stronger kind of fundamental thing and suddenly negate his regenerative powers when it has never shown to do so?

This is one of those things that need a lot of debate and as you see both sides can argue what they think since there is no clear consensus on this shit

you are late

 

[God_of_perversion]

you are late

Just defending my goat while educating others

 

[Keeweed]

This match went crazy while I was gone. Anyways for kratos sensing the EE and knowing the exact move he needs to use to not instantly die, that reminds me of the time he didn’t understand anything about an area of EE and literally jumped to his death for it. With the only reason he didn’t canonically do it because someone else actively had to warn him not to

 

[Thunderman101]

Icon fra

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Grace has already passed. This can be added now.