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Issues with Soul Damage for Advanced Ki Manipulation

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Eseseso

Eseseso

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The Advanced Ki Manipulation section currently has this for soul damage:


A few big issues here:

1. All the scans and feats shown here are done by people with Mastered level ki, especially the stuff regarding Hakai usage, so it makes no sense to attribute it to BoZ level people who only have advanced level ki.

2. Granolah taking damage was moreso due to the backlash of his technique, so it seems like just NPI to me.

3. Most of the scans have nothing to do with soul damage at all.

So this needs to be changed to just NPI, removed entirely, or, at the very least, moved to the Mastered Ki Mastery section if better justifications can be found.

Agrees: @Planck69 (Change to NPI)
 
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The level of Ki Manipulation I'm not really interested in talking about right now. But in short the arguments surrounding it are that Ki Attacks in general have Soul Damage so anyone who can externalise their Ki as attacks have Soul Damage. Because Ki is synonymous with the Soul, which you can see under Initial mastery in the same page.

As for the Granolah clones, you are proposing it has a specific drawback of just harming the user but this is ignoring the context that Clones are specifically explained as examples of Spirit Control as splitting one's spirit (i.e soul) and Granolah's clones are shown to be immaterial and disappearing when 'killed'. When he has a clone, his power is split and when that clone is killed his power (Ki, Spirit, Soul) is returned to him. Granolah taking that damage occurs when Gas brutally kills all of his clones and the power returns to the original's body. This effect of Soul Manipulation influencing the body is shown in characters like Moro who regain vitality by absorbing souls and lose vitality by losing souls. The condition of your physical health is tied to the condition of your soul. Ergo Gas damaged Granolah's split-spirit copies and that damaged the original, meaning Soul Damage. Scans supporting Cloning being splitting Spirit can be seen under 'Spirit Control' on the blog.

The third issue is just you taking things out of context and ignoring that Ki and Souls are treated as synonymous.

For more info go through the CRT where it was accepted here and here.

I can't really respond to posts because I'm busy IRL so I'll leave the thread to other people now.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
The level of Ki Manipulation I'm not really interested in talking about right now. But in short the arguments surrounding it are that Ki Attacks in general have Soul Damage so anyone who can externalise their Ki as attacks have Soul Damage. Because Ki is synonymous with the Soul, which you can see under Initial mastery in the same page.

As for the Granolah clones, you are proposing it has a specific drawback of just harming the user but this is ignoring the context that Clones are specifically explained as examples of Spirit Control as splitting one's spirit (i.e soul) and Granolah's clones are shown to be immaterial and disappearing when 'killed'. When he has a clone, his power is split and when that clone is killed his power (Ki, Spirit, Soul) is returned to him. Granolah taking that damage occurs when Gas brutally kills all of his clones and the power returns to the original's body. This effect of Soul Manipulation influencing the body is shown in characters like Moro who regain vitality by absorbing souls and lose vitality by losing souls. The condition of your physical health is tied to the condition of your soul. Ergo Gas damaged Granolah's split-spirit copies and that damaged the original, meaning Soul Damage.

The third issue is just you taking things out of context and ignoring that Ki and Souls are treated as synonymous.

For more info go through the CRT where it was accepted here and here.

I can't really respond to posts because I'm busy IRL so I'll leave the thread to other people now.
Click to expand...
Then this seems more like NPI.
 
Tbh, I agree that it is wordered weridly and that the information is kinda scarce.

Iirc, in the original thread there were information from original manga like how Yenma defeated Raditz, who at that point of time was just a soul. However, all scans that got added were from DBS manga –so, why does it apply to  all continuities on the first place? Why do DBS manga-only events apply to DBZ Toei, for example? Or to Daima? Iirc we mixed cosmological events between works, but not inherent properties of ki like abilities. Maybe I'm wrong about that though–.

Also, how it is wordered (besides the Hakai thing) it explicitely states that ki can  interact with spirits, and all scans about either an ability specific from Spirit Fission that needs more than just mere mastery of Ki like how Forced Spirit Fission takes energy out of Moro (so, given characters like Vegeta, who had Master level of Ki needed external training from a specific species to reach it and he is explicitely the only Z warrior that can, idk why it is used as an example), or characters interacting with what I guess we'd take as part of Granolah's soul, which is just NPI (interacting with a non-corporeal entity, in this case a soul, is not soul manipulation, just NPI. Damaging said entity with an attack that can affect it is not soul manipulation, just NPI + AP).

Making a comparison to Undertale, another verse which has Soul Damage, I do not see here proof of normal Ki abilities attacking both body and soul at the same time (let's remark again that I'm talking about non-Hakai ki) with an attack, just characters who can interact with souls/spirits (NPI) once they are out of the body.

And, about Hakai: why do we asume normal Ki attacks has its properties just because normal Ki users can use it with training? Beerus, which is the most knowledgeable character about destruction energy we have known so far, makes a distinction between what destroying a technique with a ki blast leaving only dust behind is (what Goku did in Zamasu arc and presumibly in Moro arc and what Vegeta did to that small rock in Granolah arc. A technique that is a failed copy of Hakai (per Goku's and Beerus' own words)) and what Hakai truly is. Hakai energy is a kind of Ki, yeah, and characters with ki can  learn how to use it. But it doesn't mean all Ki attacks share their properties (and, in fact, they canonically don't. Destroying an object with a Ki blast like Goku and Vegeta (pre-Ultra Ego) did is different to completely erase something of existence. We know that given in manga). So why do we asume normal Ki users with no external training over destruction energy (so, they don't have the "destruction" property that differentiates Ki blasts and Hakaishin techniques) do share the property of destroying souls? That feels wrong, honestly.

All in all, imo there are 3 problems right now with how Soul Damage is in DB Ki Manipulation:
  • DBS Manga-exclusive content is, for some reason, being applied to all continuities and canons, even if DBS manga was not canon to them on the first place.
  • Hakai exclusive abilities, like that of erasing things (that including souls) of existence is for some reason being applied to all Ki users, even when destroying something with Ki and doing the same with Hakai is different and, to actually erase someone (+ their soul) one needs teaching that goes beyond just learning how to use Ki
  • How it is worded ("Can interact with spirits and harm them") it sounds more like NPI, rather than Soul Damage: interacting with spirits is NPI. Damaging spirits with an attack that can interact with them is just normal AP
So, I'd be glad if supporters could please answer all this problems
 
It being soul damage is fine, but the way it’s used a lot in debates rn is that standard ki attacks can just negate physical durability entirely and go immediately for someone’s soul, which I’m not convinced by.
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Tbh, I agree that it is wordered weridly and that the information is kinda scarce.

Iirc, in the original thread there were information from original manga like how Yenma defeated Raditz, who at that point of time was just a soul. However, all scans that got added were from DBS manga –so, why does it apply to  all continuities on the first place? Why do DBS manga-only events apply to DBZ Toei, for example? Or to Daima? Iirc we mixed cosmological events between works, but not inherent properties of ki like abilities. Maybe I'm wrong about that though–.

Also, how it is wordered (besides the Hakai thing) it explicitely states that ki can  interact with spirits, and all scans about either an ability specific from Spirit Fission that needs more than just mere mastery of Ki like how Forced Spirit Fission takes energy out of Moro (so, given characters like Vegeta, who had Master level of Ki needed external training from a specific species to reach it and he is explicitely the only Z warrior that can, idk why it is used as an example), or characters interacting with what I guess we'd take as part of Granolah's soul, which is just NPI (interacting with a non-corporeal entity, in this case a soul, is not soul manipulation, just NPI. Damaging said entity with an attack that can affect it is not soul manipulation, just NPI + AP).

Making a comparison to Undertale, another verse which has Soul Damage, I do not see here proof of normal Ki abilities attacking both body and soul at the same time (let's remark again that I'm talking about non-Hakai ki) with an attack, just characters who can interact with souls/spirits (NPI) once they are out of the body.

And, about Hakai: why do we asume normal Ki attacks has its properties just because normal Ki users can use it with training? Beerus, which is the most knowledgeable character about destruction energy we have known so far, makes a distinction between what destroying a technique with a ki blast leaving only dust behind is (what Goku did in Zamasu arc and presumibly in Moro arc and what Vegeta did to that small rock in Granolah arc. A technique that is a failed copy of Hakai (per Goku's and Beerus' own words)) and what Hakai truly is. Hakai energy is a kind of Ki, yeah, and characters with ki can  learn how to use it. But it doesn't mean all Ki attacks share their properties (and, in fact, they canonically don't. Destroying an object with a Ki blast like Goku and Vegeta (pre-Ultra Ego) did is different to completely erase something of existence. We know that given in manga). So why do we asume normal Ki users with no external training over destruction energy (so, they don't have the "destruction" property that differentiates Ki blasts and Hakaishin techniques) do share the property of destroying souls? That feels wrong, honestly.

All in all, imo there are 3 problems right now with how Soul Damage is in DB Ki Manipulation:
  • DBS Manga-exclusive content is, for some reason, being applied to all continuities and canons, even if DBS manga was not canon to them on the first place.
  • Hakai exclusive abilities, like that of erasing things (that including souls) of existence is for some reason being applied to all Ki users, even when destroying something with Ki and doing the same with Hakai is different and, to actually erase someone (+ their soul) one needs teaching that goes beyond just learning how to use Ki
  • How it is worded ("Can interact with spirits and harm them") it sounds more like NPI, rather than Soul Damage: interacting with spirits is NPI. Damaging spirits with an attack that can interact with them is just normal AP
So, I'd be glad if supporters could please answer all this problems
Click to expand...
Perfect analysis
 
JJSliderman said:
It being soul damage is fine, but the way it’s used a lot in debates rn is that standard ki attacks can just negate physical durability entirely and go immediately for someone’s soul, which I’m not convinced by.
Click to expand...
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Tbh, I agree that it is wordered weridly and that the information is kinda scarce.

Iirc, in the original thread there were information from original manga like how Yenma defeated Raditz, who at that point of time was just a soul. However, all scans that got added were from DBS manga –so, why does it apply to  all continuities on the first place? Why do DBS manga-only events apply to DBZ Toei, for example? Or to Daima? Iirc we mixed cosmological events between works, but not inherent properties of ki like abilities. Maybe I'm wrong about that though–.

Also, how it is wordered (besides the Hakai thing) it explicitely states that ki can  interact with spirits, and all scans about either an ability specific from Spirit Fission that needs more than just mere mastery of Ki like how Forced Spirit Fission takes energy out of Moro (so, given characters like Vegeta, who had Master level of Ki needed external training from a specific species to reach it and he is explicitely the only Z warrior that can, idk why it is used as an example), or characters interacting with what I guess we'd take as part of Granolah's soul, which is just NPI (interacting with a non-corporeal entity, in this case a soul, is not soul manipulation, just NPI. Damaging said entity with an attack that can affect it is not soul manipulation, just NPI + AP).

Making a comparison to Undertale, another verse which has Soul Damage, I do not see here proof of normal Ki abilities attacking both body and soul at the same time (let's remark again that I'm talking about non-Hakai ki) with an attack, just characters who can interact with souls/spirits (NPI) once they are out of the body.

And, about Hakai: why do we asume normal Ki attacks has its properties just because normal Ki users can use it with training? Beerus, which is the most knowledgeable character about destruction energy we have known so far, makes a distinction between what destroying a technique with a ki blast leaving only dust behind is (what Goku did in Zamasu arc and presumibly in Moro arc and what Vegeta did to that small rock in Granolah arc. A technique that is a failed copy of Hakai (per Goku's and Beerus' own words)) and what Hakai truly is. Hakai energy is a kind of Ki, yeah, and characters with ki can  learn how to use it. But it doesn't mean all Ki attacks share their properties (and, in fact, they canonically don't. Destroying an object with a Ki blast like Goku and Vegeta (pre-Ultra Ego) did is different to completely erase something of existence. We know that given in manga). So why do we asume normal Ki users with no external training over destruction energy (so, they don't have the "destruction" property that differentiates Ki blasts and Hakaishin techniques) do share the property of destroying souls? That feels wrong, honestly.

All in all, imo there are 3 problems right now with how Soul Damage is in DB Ki Manipulation:
  • DBS Manga-exclusive content is, for some reason, being applied to all continuities and canons, even if DBS manga was not canon to them on the first place.
  • Hakai exclusive abilities, like that of erasing things (that including souls) of existence is for some reason being applied to all Ki users, even when destroying something with Ki and doing the same with Hakai is different and, to actually erase someone (+ their soul) one needs teaching that goes beyond just learning how to use Ki
  • How it is worded ("Can interact with spirits and harm them") it sounds more like NPI, rather than Soul Damage: interacting with spirits is NPI. Damaging spirits with an attack that can interact with them is just normal AP
So, I'd be glad if supporters could please answer all this problems
Click to expand...
Between these posts and the OP, yeah, I am very much skeptical of why this is being generally applied to so many characters to begin with.

Hakai and Spirit Fission are very specific abilities. And everything else seems like taking the fact that Ki has a spiritual component to a logical extreme.

I agree with changing it to NPI for now, unless there's more concrete evidence for it being soul damage.
 
Does this also affect the resistance for basic level?
Click to expand...
 
MrTayman616 said:
Does this also affect the resistance for basic level?
Click to expand...
Well, uh...
Spirits in the Afterlife can fight others
Click to expand...
That doesn't seem to be a property inherent of a being who can use Ki manipulation abilities tbh. And idk how fighting as a spirit gives one resistance to soul manipulation anyway
and the spirit is strengthened like its body
Click to expand...
I can  maybe see this. Though it should be noted that characters who have not received training on spirit control (basically almost every character) have, as the very scan says, their body and spirit off-balance. So, it's not that "yhe spirit is strengthened like its body", but more like "the spirit is strengthened, but unless the character receives proper training it is off-balance with the body's strength".
Many characters have demonstrated being able to naturally handle having their spirit/ki stolen from them
Click to expand...
This seems fine (though some scans don't work).

My only problem with this is, if we are assuming characters receive Soul Manipulation resistance due to losing part of their  Genki (spirit) and surviving, then not only characters who can use Ki should, but literally everyone in Dragon Ball should, because everyone and anyone (androids like 17, 18 and that Android we saw in classic db, normal humans who don't even know what Ki is, and even plants, animals, planets and stars) can share part of their Genki (spirit) to form the Genkidama and not die in the process (refer to the most notable example: the Genkidama used against Buu).

Also, most links don't work to me.

Ki users when splitting their soul have been shown taking damage to their spirit, and still handle the effects of the damage
Click to expand...
This seems fine, maybe? Though, again, not all Ki users can split their souls, only those who have learnt Spirit Control can. So, you could argue the resistance to damage to their spirit comes specifically from learning to put one's body and spirit in balance (i.e., learning Spirit Control). Again, not something all Ki users should have, given specific teaching from Yardrats that go beyond just learning how to use Ki are needed.
When fighting against other Ki users, their Soul Damaging effects are inherently resisted
Click to expand...
Straightforward this should go if this thread passes
with the most powerful Ki users being able to endure the effects of Hakai which directly targets the soul and attempts to destroy it completely
Click to expand...
I think this should have a note like "Dimensional Travel, Sound Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation & Portal Creation" has to note that only characters above a certain level would have this resistance. Also, I'd personally add the example of how in the anime Vegeta could overwhelm Toppo's Destruction Energy or how Frieza and Goku in the anime could resist being inside it without dying.

And, anyway, this should only apply to DBS FRA.

Side note: I've been saying "characters with teaching on spirit control/hakaishin techniques" above when there are 2 exceptions, those being Granolah and Gas, who learnt said techniques not by being taught, but by a wish from a Dragon, which bestowed them spirit control abilities beyond those of Goku and Vegeta, magic like Moro and Destruction techniques to a level Vegeta needed time and training to reach. But, again, this comes from certain techniques being granted by a wish, not a specific property of Ki
 
Also to be clear, I have no issue with characters that have Spirit Control/Hakai or resist them keeping this, given those are direct. Everyone else's can go.
 
From what I can see, it is not "Ki attacks can directly hit and hurt the soul/spirit" which is what Soul Damage/Manipulation covers, but rather "Ki attacks can hit and hurt someone even if they are just a soul/spirit" which is what NPI covers, is that correct?
 
DragonZeroNova said:
From what I can see, it is not "Ki attacks can directly hit and hurt the soul/spirit" which is what Soul Damage/Manipulation covers, but rather "Ki attacks can hit and hurt someone even if they are just a soul/spirit" which is what NPI covers, is that correct?
Click to expand...
Correct
 
Eseseso said:
The Advanced Ki Manipulation section currently has this for soul damage:


A few big issues here:

1. All the scans and feats shown here are done by people with Mastered level ki, especially the stuff regarding Hakai usage, so it makes no sense to attribute it to BoZ level people who only have advanced level ki.
Click to expand...
It's literally just different levels of Ki mastery. It was just agreed upon to start that property of Ki (soul damage) to when characters got to the level of being more attuned to it. Even though it could be argued to start even earlier. I'd argue this isn't too important though, as it doesn't touch upon the real crux of the argument.
Eseseso said:
2. Granolah taking damage was moreso due to the backlash of his technique, so it seems like just NPI to me.
Click to expand...
You need to actually address the arguments in the thread. We went over the reason why it's actually not just NPI, but also Soul Damage. This is just a supporting argument for things we've already seen. What Granolah does is split his spirit into multiple parts to form a physical body to fight. The damage taken by the clones is felt by the original and physically affect Granolah. When the clones are defeated or released, they fizzle into pure energy (spirit) and go back to Granolah; the damage actually sticks to the spirit. We already have a backlash of the technique; that being his power having to be split for it to actually work, which leaves him weaker. That was just one of the justifications. We also have Vegeta literally hitting Moro's soul, then separating with forced spirt fission (literally just an extension of normal Ki usage/spirit control). The technique doesn't allow him to simply damage souls through the body, it's liberation. Which means for that to be the case, Vegeta would already have to be damaging Moro's soul and interacting with it initially. This isn't Vegeta hitting a split soul from the original, since that isn't what Moro is. So you can't claim it's just NPI.

This was also another big point. We aren't giving every Ki user complete Hakai level soul destruction just because it can be used by users with Normal Ki. We are giving some of it's derivative properties to normal Ki users. The different types of Ki that are used, like Destroyer Ki are just more refined and Purified Ki which you can gain by training. What Hakai is specifically said to do, is turn something into nothing, complete erasure. And just like with the spirit fission example, this doesn't simply allow one to interact with the soul at all. These are just different extensions of Ki usage to form different techniques. Some are more advanced than the others; soul damage in general is not one of them. And seeing as how Ki manipulation is literally just a form of spirit control (since ki=spirit), a pattern begins to form here. That being that Ki users literally can just damage souls, that is the nature of it. There is also Yamoshi being killed by Evil Saiyans which messed with his spirit, devilmite beam used by Spike to target the 'Heart' (soul) which just a regular Ki attack, (which just uses the evil in your soul against you, not simply just interacting with it at all).

All evidence points to Ki users literally just having Soul Damage, not just interacting with a pure spirit to cause harm, but damaging both at the same time. And I'll reiterate this again, this does not give all users Hakai level Ki destruction, we even have a notes section for that. It just gives Ki users some of the properties of it's derivative technique possesses. Or rather, proving that these techniques are simply extensions of what is already done via the nature of Ki.
Eseseso said:
3. Most of the scans have nothing to do with soul damage at all.
Click to expand...
I disagree. But maybe the justification could of been better. But all of it is explained in great detail in the actual thread. The current one didn't do the argument justice.
 
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From what i see, Ki = Spirit/Soul, so Ki damage = spirit/soul damage. Pretty much Ki is UES so the power contains multiple abilities within its attacks is a very normal thing so i hardly see problem about this.

The hakai stuff is mostly there for supporting evidence, and they are just derivative, specific kind of Ki

Though i agree someone should write a better justification, the current one is...........forgive my language, look extremely bad and almost no effort at all. Or better, make an actual explaination blog and link it to the soul hax justification
 
Chariot190 said:
who wants to point out the dozens of times complete randoms got hit by ki and didnt have their soul damaged at all. Including people who have zero control and may as well be normal.
Click to expand...
If you have zero control, mean you can't even manipulate Ki in the first place
 
TiltedFN said:
It's literally just different levels of Ki mastery. It was just agreed upon to start that property of Ki (soul damage) to when characters got to the level of being more attuned to it. Even though it could be argued to start even earlier. I'd argue this isn't too important though, as it doesn't touch upon the real crux of the argument.

You need to actually address the arguments in the thread. We went over the reason why it's actually not just NPI, but also Soul Damage. This is just a supporting argument for things we've already seen. What Granolah does is split his spirit into multiple parts to form a physical body to fight. The damage taken by the clones is felt by the original and physically affect Granolah. When the clones are defeated or released, they fizzle into pure energy (spirit) and go back to Granolah; the damage actually sticks to the spirit. We already have a backlash of the technique; that being his power having to be split for it to actually work, which leaves him weaker. That was just one of the justifications. We also have Vegeta literally hitting Moro's soul, then separating with forced spirt fission (literally just an extension of normal Ki usage/spirit control). The technique doesn't allow him to simply damage souls through the body, it's liberation. Which means for that to be the case, Vegeta would already have to be damaging Moro's soul and interacting with it initially. This isn't Vegeta hitting a split soul from the original, since that isn't what Moro is. So you can't claim it's just NPI.

This was also another big point. We aren't giving every Ki user complete Hakai level soul destruction just because it can be used by users with Normal Ki. We are giving some of it's derivative properties to normal Ki users. The different types of Ki that are used, like Destroyer Ki are just more refined and Purified Ki which you can gain by training. What Hakai is specifically said to do, is turn something into nothing, complete erasure. And just like with the spirit fission example, this doesn't simply allow one to interact with the soul at all. These are just different extensions of Ki usage to form different techniques. Some are more advanced than the others; soul damage in general is not one of them. And seeing as how Ki manipulation is literally just a form of spirit control (since ki=spirit), a pattern begins to form here. That being that Ki users literally can just damage souls, that is the nature of it. There is also Yamoshi being killed by Evil Saiyans which messed with his spirit, devilmite beam used by Spike to target the 'Heart' (soul) which just a regular Ki attack, (which just uses the evil in your soul against you, not simply just interacting with it at all).

All evidence points to Ki users literally just having Soul Damage, not just interacting with a pure spirit to cause harm, but damaging both at the same time. And I'll reiterate this again, this does not give all users Hakai level Ki destruction, we even have a notes section for that. It just gives Ki users some of the properties of it's derivative technique possesses. Or rather, proving that these techniques are simply extensions of what is already done via the nature of Ki.

I disagree. But maybe the justification could of been better. But all of it is explained in great detail in the actual thread. The current one didn't do the argument justice.
Click to expand...
I also heard from people in other threads that getting hit by a Ki attack with no resistance just would destroy the soul in one shot, can you explain that?
 
Chariot190 said:
That is quite literally my exact point, people who have zero ki control wouldn't exactly have protection to excuse the fact they weren't obliterfucked on a soul lv.
Click to expand...
But everyone and everything have Ki though, so they still resists the effects from Ki, they just can't manipulate it to do stuff
 
Chariot190 said:
That is quite literally my exact point, people who have zero ki control wouldn't exactly have protection to excuse the fact they weren't obliterfucked on a soul lv.
Click to expand...
I mean soul attacks don't necessarily have to 1-shot souls, see the Knight's soul suck which does literally nothing.

Also I dunno if my memories is failing me, but don't most regular humans die from the ki attack? And according to the og thread apparently the Afterlife just like rebuilts souls?
 
Vietthai96 said:
But everyone and everything have Ki though, so they still resists the effects from Ki, they just can't manipulate it to do stuff
Click to expand...
Bro, if even normal humans have resistance despite having zero capability to harness, manipulate, or effect their own ki, mayhaps this whole soul damage thing has been GROSSLY overblown, like be fr you know exactly what I'm getting at.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I mean soul attacks don't necessarily have to 1-shot souls, see the Knight's soul suck which does literally nothing.
Click to expand...
That is cool, but that is also not how this is framed on the profiles.
One soul slop ability that don't do much isn't the same as what's been accepted here.
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Also I dunno if my memories is failing me, but don't most regular humans die from the ki attack?
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I can think of multiple fodder who have survived ki attacks who also aren't even remotely a fighter.
In fact, I might just steal that list lad#5 was making, I'll ask, I don't wanna steal their memes if they gonna do something with it eventually tho.
And according to the og thread apparently the Afterlife just like rebuilts souls?
Click to expand...
I pray to God and he isn't answering.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I mean soul attacks don't necessarily have to 1-shot souls, see the Knight's soul suck which does literally nothing.
Click to expand...
Chariot190 said:
Bro, if even normal humans have resistance despite having zero capability to harness, manipulate, or effect their own ki, mayhaps this whole soul damage thing has been GROSSLY overblown, like be fr you know exactly what I'm getting at.
Click to expand...
Yeah kinda, this is just soul damage, it is not like making a crack on the soul mean it must be oblitirated

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Also I dunno if my memories is failing me, but don't most regular humans die from the ki attack? And according to the og thread apparently the Afterlife just like rebuilts souls?
Click to expand...
I remember something like that though
@TiltedFN
 
Planck69 said:
Chariot does bring up a very good point, though. If even normal humans with seemingly no control over their ki are unharmed, then that's a problem.
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Unharmed where? We see regular humans die from beings with Ki manipulation all the time. Every human in Dragon Ball has Ki. It's just really hard to fully control as Gohan puts it. And It's not like characters aren't capable of holding back attacks if they were for some reason trying to attack normal humans, despite just being a villain. If such a thing does exist, it's not something that happens often, if at all without severe injury or just death.
 
TiltedFN said:
Unharmed where? We see regular humans die from beings with Ki manipulation all the time. Every human in Dragon Ball has Ki. It's just really hard to fully control as Gohan puts it. And It's not like characters aren't capable of holding back attacks if they were for some reason trying to attack normal humans, despite just being a villain. If such a thing does exist, it's not something that happens often, if at all without severe injury or just death.
Click to expand...
Dying =/= Soul Destruction without context.

Dying in like Bleach is like soul erasure, maybe in DBH/Xeno it might be erasure stuff. But OG DB manga and anime, have standard life/death cycles. Body dies, soul doesn't.
 
And like doesn't Tien go to Afterlike with his hand intact in Saiyan Saga? His astral hand is never cut.
Same for Frieza in Namek and Pre-Android Saga, his astral body isn't mutilated.
Same for Perfect Cell.
 
Do not forget they make it a plot point how if a soul is destroyed you cease to exist in the Buu Saga, and Buu literally used a ki blast to kill every single human on earth (who wouldnt have res mind you), with it also being made a point they all showed up instantly and they haven't had time to deal with any of them at all at Enma's place.
which is to say that whole souls get rebuilt thing is sus af, they basically verbatim say that isn't a thing and if a soul is destroyed you just don't exist anymore and ultra die.

As one of many, many, blatant issues with assuming ki just passively nukes souls.
 
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