Genshin Impact — Conceptual Moons (Accepted, but still require further clarifications)

[Voidnether]

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)​

The thread was originally accepted here, honestly I don't see anything that states the Shades are concepts other than the concept of time one which wouldn't work since it talks about the concept of time as something that only exists in the mind. This is refering to when Otto Apocalypse talks about how concept of time is fundamentally different in each realms, it doesn't talk about time as a concept itself but rather as a direction. The same thing applies with Wenut when they talked on how there's no concept of time, so it's more of like a timeless void if anything. But my main problem is that the Shades are obviously meant to replace the Moons who govern over these life-death, space-time aspects and it's also explained here that the Moons are still alive somehow even after Heavenly Principles killed them, so whilst Phanes is universal: the Shades aren't, unless we're going to say that the Moons are also universal despite this existing and also conceptual in nature.

So, would the Heavenly Principles who killed them made the Shades as the only aspects of Teyvat? No, Dottore proved the otherwise and it's heavily implied that the 3 Moons still existed. This would meant that the Shades and the Moons both govern said aspect: life-death, space-time. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention but Istaroth here is only an aspect of time, not time itself as a dimension. The justification for Istaroth being the temporal dimension is off the temporal omnipresence where she's all moments. Unless, the Moons would also be the temporal dimension?

There are 3 options:
1. The Moons are CM2
2. The Shades & Moons are CM3
3. They aren't CM3 because it's idealism

Option 1 wouldn't work, since CM2 is only for one concept, there cannot be two fundamentally different character that is the same concept unless they are one

I prefer with option 2 since they're tangible, but at the same time I prefer with option 3 since there's no statement about them being stated to be concepts other than like the concept of time stuff which wouldn't work that well: They're stated to be the laws of Teyvat so instead they'd be Law Manipulation and their respective ability like Istaroth with Time Manipulation and so on

Since this got to 9 pages even though 2 mods accepted it back when it was only 1 and a half page, here's my TLDR and my arguments against the opponent

Genshin Impact — Conceptual Moons (Accepted, but still require further clarifications)

so you disagree with OP? Obviously, and this was easy to debunk than i expected.

vsbattles.com

Genshin Impact — Conceptual Moons (Accepted, but still require further clarifications)

So then, would you agree that there could be multiple entities, despite them being distinct and fundamentally different to each other, to be the same concept and have it labeled as CM2 even though what they governed is the same? Both are embodiments of said aspects, both govern said aspects in...

vsbattles.com

I believe these two are enough

Staff Votes​

• Option 1:
• Option 2:
• Option 3: Vietthai96, Godernet

Member Votes​

• Option 1:
• Option 2: Setsuna_tenma, Sahlwrld, Furina003
• Option 3: Natsuki012, Grabbing_dragon

This is just a music for the CRT, so it doesn't really matter since you know (but yeah), it's fire though

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree for option 2.

 

[Furina003]

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)​

The same thing applies with Wenut when they talked on how there's no concept of time, so it's more of like a timeless void if anything. But my main problem is that the Shades are obviously meant to replace the Moons who govern over these life-death, space-time aspects and it's also explained here that the Moons are still alive somehow even after Heavenly Principles killed them, so whilst Phanes is universal: the Shades aren't, unless we're going to say that the Moons are also universal despite this existing and also conceptual in nature.

I disagree with everything that was proposed, the moon sisters only have power over those concepts doesn't mean the shades don't get cm2, this is a complete fallacy of the proposed thinking, the shades consistently govern everything in reality and their concepts are fundamental concepts themselves, just like istaroth and ronova which are consistently referred to as time or death itself.

But my main problem is that the Shades are obviously meant to replace the Moons who govern over these life-death, space-time aspects and it's also explained here that the Moons are still alive somehow

There's no statement that the shades are as you describe them. Alice simply explains that before the arrival of the heavenly principle, the worlds were ruled by the three moons. When the heavenly principle arrived, this new order was completely changed. This is why, in the era of the three moon goddesses, all beings were eternal and there was no concept of time. It was the heavenly principle that created the new order as it exists today.
Regardless of all that, if we follow your statement, the shades will still be get to the manipulation of the type 2 concept because they replaced the three moon sisters who previously held control in the old world order.
Your statement seems to assume that only one person can have cm2 in one world, but that's not the case.

 

[Voidnether]

I disagree with everything that was proposed, the moon sisters only have power over those concepts doesn't mean the shades don't get cm2, this is a complete fallacy of the proposed thinking, the shades consistently govern everything in reality and their concepts are fundamental concepts themselves, just like istaroth and ronova which are consistently referred to as time or death itself.

There's no statement that the shades are as you describe them. Alice simply explains that before the arrival of the heavenly principle, the worlds were ruled by the three moons. When the heavenly principle arrived, this new order was completely changed. This is why, in the era of the three moon goddesses, all beings were eternal and there was no concept of time. It was the heavenly principle that created the new order as it exists today.
Regardless of all that, if we follow your statement, the shades will still be subject to the manipulation of the type 2 concept because they replaced the three moon sisters who previously held control in the old world order.
Your statement seems to assume that only one person can have cm2 in one world, but that's not the case.

You literally have to affirm that the Moons are also conceptual if you're saying the Shades are conceptual: Prove they're stated to be concepts other than the Wenut statement.

You can't say that the Moons aren't conceptual when they're the original one, the Shades were always meant to mirror, to be a replacement to them: There's no such things as "Oh, the Moons aren't conceptual but the Shades somehow are"

Also, you really can't have two distinct person occupying the same concept unless it's a different one in which that's not the case here.

 

[Furina003]

You literally have to affirm that the Moons are also conceptual if you're saying the Shades are conceptual: Prove they're stated to be concepts other than the Wenut statement.

why should it be like that, 3 moon sisters and shades are 2 different groups, they are not related at all, you just assume that the power of 3 moon sisters is the same as shades, while shades are the shadow of primordial one that represents the concepts they created, moon sisters on the other hand, they do not create concepts but they can only manipulate the concepts that exist in the world, that's why it is said that when the era of the 3 moon goddesses / dragon age the concept of time did not exist and there was no boundary between life and death, because in reality they did not literally create those concepts, but they only controlled the concept when it already existed

You can't say that the Moons aren't conceptual when they're the original one, the Shades were always meant to mirror, to be a replacement to them: There's no such things as "Oh, the Moons aren't conceptual but the Shades somehow are"

Bro, the Shades were never said to be fake. They are reflections of the Primordial One, not reflections of the Three Moon Goddesses. That idea is just a theory you made up. Give me scans or sources that say the Shades are reflections of the three Moon Deities especially when they were stated to have coexisted at the same time, lol.

Also, you really can't have two distinct person occupying the same concept unless it's a different one in which that's not the case here.

no, anyone can get cm2 if they meet the standards, moon goddess and shade will get the full cm2

 

[SuperNova55555]

What even is meant to be CM2 anyhow lel. We know that the “concept of time” here is just erosion being brought to Teyvat, and they’re powers are really just “X manipulation”

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention but Istaroth here is only an aspect of time, not time itself as a dimension. The justification for Istaroth being the temporal dimension is off the temporal omnipresence where she's all moments. Unless, the Moons would also be the temporal dimension?

Moons’ statement seems to be specifically referring to Teyvat here and not the universe; nevertheless what the lore is, if it is truly taken that Istaroth is physical time, then it cannot be that she’s a universal herself.

I think I alr mentioned in the OOP that if Istaroth is Low 2-C then she can’t have CM

3. They aren't CM3 because it's idealism

nominalism*

The HYV cosmology can never run on pure idealism due to the existence of memoria

 

[MSahla]

Bros somehow brought Honkai on this.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)​

The same thing applies with Wenut when they talked on how there's no concept of time, so it's more of like a timeless void if anything.

It refers to Erosion.

But my main problem is that the Shades are obviously meant to replace the Moons who govern over these life-death, space-time aspects and it's also explained here that the Moons are still alive somehow

The scan you gave isn't showing anything that said "The Shades are meant to replace the moons". More like the Heavenly Principles themself who replace them with their Primordial Laws.

The Heavenly Principles and the Three Moon Sisters were once coexist harmoniously with the laws of the Heavenly Principles, which is stated to be the Primordial Laws (universal laws).

If one was born early enough, lived long enough, and one's forbidden memories weren't erased by more transcendent beings, they would surely remember (and such beings do exist in Teyvat) that before the war of funerary flame, the Three Moon Goddesses, who served Nibelung, once coexisted harmoniously with the principles of Celestia for a time.

Of course, if one were to inquire about this matter with Celestia, the high heavens might respond with ambiguity. The Three Moons were once satellites that guarded Teyvat, and the Moon Sisters were executors of the planet's will. Celestia's principles were once quite "tolerant," not necessarily requiring the exclusion of those divergent from itself. — Lauma Character Story.

Nicole: The moon goddesses were nowhere near strong enough to challenge this entity. But the Heavenly Principles did not view them as heretical entities that had to be removed

So yeah. Initially, the Heavenly Principles never saw the three sisters as enemies.

Also, the moon sisters were never embodying any concepts, they're just manipulating these concepts and shares these powers among themselves and promised to never consolidate them into one singular body to avoid one of them being too powerful.

Alice: That's exactly it. The three goddesses split these powers amongst themselves, promising never to consolidate them into one singular body. This was meant to keep the world stable.

even after Heavenly Principles killed them, so whilst Phanes is universal: the Shades aren't, unless we're going to say that the Moons are also universal despite this existing and also conceptual in nature.

"Phanes is universal while shades aren't"
This is funny, because thw four shades and the heavenly principles are essentially one being, they're the shadow of the Heavenly Principles.

Initially, the Heavenly Principles were alone, posessing 5 authorities: Reason, Life, Death, Time and Space. Each of these authorities are universal. Until the day when the Heavenly Principles came to Teyvat, and split itself and gave form to 4 of the authorities they had which is the four shades that we know today.

It is confirmed that the Heavenly Principles have been created humans in another world, as it is stated that Teyvat are the new world they had chosen for the children of Humanity.

Until that day, when a winged Descender arrived, treading upon the Morning Star…
This was not the great enemy foretold to extinguish the stars, nor did it seem intent on seizing the source that sustained the world’s continuance.
Faced with this uninvited visitor, the three guardians who acted on behalf of the planet’s will were at a loss, locked in endless debate.
But whether submission or rebellion, battle or death, the King of All Armies would mercilessly crush anything that stood in his way.
For this was the new world he had chosen for the children of humanity, and by his design both earth and sky would be remade anew.
Before the conquest of daylight came to its end, the attendants of the night could only watch and wait. — Aubade of Morningstar and Moon

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention but Istaroth here is only an aspect of time, not time itself as a dimension. The justification for Istaroth being the temporal dimension is off the temporal omnipresence where she's all moments. Unless, the Moons would also be the temporal dimension?

As i said, The Moon Sisters were never embodying any concepts unlike Istaroth whose literally Time itself, and was given form by the Heavenly Principles.

The Four Shades and the Heavenly Principles are the Primordial Laws.

The Sovereign of Sevenfold Calamity would not permit the gods to soften their hearts for the trifling suffering of the world.
Before the primordial laws once set in place, only submission and reverence could be called true love for humanity.
Even the three sisters who dwelt behind jade-hued veils, spinning silver threads of fate for all beings,
spoke of the ancient peoples and mortals ruined by destiny with nothing more than three layers of silence.
Pity

They're stated to be the laws of Teyvat so instead they'd be Law Manipulation and their respective ability like Istaroth with Time Manipulation and so on

The Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades are the Laws of the Universe.

I disagree with everything he said. He's not debunking anything.

 

[MSahla]

I already said this before that, Genshin are not in the same universe as both HSR and HI3.

Theres a few points that i knew:

1- Surtalogi: In 5.7, we learn that Surtalogi has been traveling the universe for centuries, gaining reputation as the "Cosmic Calamity", appearntly he became so strong that he no longer found a challenging opponent, he had become the strongest in the cosmos. This doesn't work in HSR, as there would have still been the Aeons and Emenators, the fact that Surtalogi didn't find them suggests a different universe.

2- The Dying Universe: In multiple sources ae have been told the Genshin Universe is dying because of the Abyss, this has been going on for many thousands of years (Finale of Deep Galleries) and now only a few worlds are left (6.2 Durin sword). This doesn't work in HSR, as the universe is very alive and connected, with no mention of the Abyss or Surtalogi.

3- Honkai Rules: In Honkai Impact 3rd, there is a specific rule that time travel is impossible, it goes against the laws of the Imaginary Tree and Sea of Quanta, you can create time loops, you can create alternate timelines, but you can NEVER change the past. (Correct me if im wrong). While Genshin has Istaroth, the Ruler of Time, who had sent Direidyth foward and back through time, changing the Abyss Twin's fate.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I already said this before that, Genshin are not in the same universe as both HSR and HI3.

Theres a few points that i knew:

The Imaginary Tree is a multiversal structure…

3- Honkai Rules: In Honkai Impact 3rd, there is a specific rule that time travel is impossible, it goes against the laws of the Imaginary Tree and Sea of Quanta, you can create time loops, you can create alternate timelines, but you can NEVER change the past. (Correct me if im wrong). While Genshin has Istaroth, the Ruler of Time, who had sent Direidyth foward and back through time, changing the Abyss Twin's fate.

Terminus (and likely Mythus) literally do this though

And this is only about the true time of the entire Tree (the one formed from Imaginary Energy flowing) iirc

 

[Furina003]

I already said this before that, Genshin are not in the same universe as both HSR and HI3.

Theres a few points that i knew:

linking genshin and honkai is wrong for now, if it is allowed I will upgrade phanes and shades to tier 1b, seriously lol

 

[MSahla]

The Imaginary Tree is a multiversal structure…

Yeah

Terminus (and likely Mythus) literally do this though

Well, idk abt that, im not that deep into hsr lore yet.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yeah

And the Abyss only overtakes one universe. There’s nothing to say that it’s edges stop at the Imaginary boundaries between star clusters. And Surtalogi isn’t an emanator so he isn’t capable of crossing them either.

Well, idk abt that, im not that deep into hsr lore yet.

It’s mostly 3.8 stuff anyways

 

[Robo432343]

Let’s go guys another 10 page genshin thread!!!!

 

[Furina003]

And the Abyss only overtakes one universe. There’s nothing to say that it’s edges stop at the Imaginary boundaries between star clusters. And Surtalogi isn’t an emanator so he isn’t capable of crossing them either.

in hsr, universe = imaginary tree, they are multiverse but not in size, 1 leaf only represents 1 world/civilization

The Imaginary Tree is a theory of the universe widely accepted by the modern scientific community.

This theory describes the various worlds existing in different spacetimes as having a tree-like structure. Every branch is a specific path along which worlds might exist, with every leaf being the marks these worlds have made along the parameter of time. The crown of the tree remains in a dynamic state as it absorbs the masterless Imaginary Energy from the space-time vasculature of the trunk. New shoots grow, withered leaves fall, and endless births and deaths occur among the infinite universe... Describing the universe's structure as a "tree" may be an attitude that views the Imaginary Tree as a life form.

Before the theory of Imaginary Tree was put forward, the universe had been addressed as "a void and indiscernible object" because of its undetectable nature. After the theory was developed, people would . Before the theory of Imaginary Tree was put forward, the universe had been addressed as "a void and indiscernible object" because of its undetectable nature. After the theory was developed, people would visualize its principle using imagination: The untamed imaginary energy surges endlessly through space-time vasculature, and forms at its tips "star clusters" that humans can understand — in other words, countless worlds. The worlds are separated from each other just as leaves are separated by air, between which are unknown imaginary domains that are nigh impossible to traverse.

every leaf has its time, but not in the measure of the universe. So the multiverse here means having many leaves/worlds that have their own time parameters, not each in the size of the universe.

 

[SuperNova55555]

in hsr, universe = imaginary tree, they are multiverse but not in size, 1 leaf only represents 1 world/civilization

Every leaf has extremely varying sizes

 

[MSahla]

This is easy to debunk ngl.

What he basically tryna do here is to equalize the Four Shades and the Three Moon Sisters, While they never had the same context since the very beginning.

The Moon Sisters only govern a single planet, while the Four Shades and Heavenly Principles are universal (literally). The new lore just confirmed that the Heavenly Principles have already created humanity in another worlds.

Just because the three sisters were also governing these aspects, doesn't mean they're embodying each of these aspects, and they have been confirmed by Alice to shares each of these powers among themselves. So, each of them have the power of Life, Death, Space and Time. Why do they shares these powers? To avoid one of them being too powerful.

 

[Furina003]

Every leaf has extremely varying sizes

yeah nothing in the size of the universe, is there a scan that says 1 leaf is the size of the universe? if there is just ignore what I said

 

[SuperNova55555]

This right

Yea, Terminus’ ability is to be able to reverse time and then be able to direct the Imaginary Tree to different possibilities.

 

[SuperNova55555]

yeah nothing in the size of the universe, is there a scan that says 1 leaf is the size of the universe? if there is just ignore what I said

I mean the biggest one I know is a galaxy-sized space-time like Amphoreus. And I don’t believe genshin’s universe is infinite so 93 billion lightyears of space ain’t allat.

 

[Furina003]

I mean the biggest one I know is a galaxy-sized space-time like Amphoreus. And I don’t believe genshin’s universe is infinite so 93 billion lightyears of space ain’t allat.

not really, many statements say that the genshin universe is infinite, but its ok, i don't want to discuss things outside of CRT too much

 

[MSahla]

And I don’t believe genshin’s universe is infinite so 93 billion lightyears of space ain’t allat.

I mean they already said that theres infinite worlds in the universe.
Also, Genshin Universe is just basically our universe irl. They even mentioned Andromeda Galaxy.

Try to read this book

Vera's Melancholy

Vera's Melancholy is a Book Collection that can be found in various places throughout Mondstadt. —Endless Days in Infinite Worlds— "There are times when I think to myself... There's nothing to do in this tiny village. What a dull place to live." This wasn't the first time that Vera had...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

 

[SuperNova55555]

I mean they already said that theres infinite worlds in the universe.
Also, Genshin Universe is just basically our universe irl. They even mentioned Andromeda Galaxy.

Try to read this book

Vera's Melancholy

Vera's Melancholy is a Book Collection that can be found in various places throughout Mondstadt. —Endless Days in Infinite Worlds— "There are times when I think to myself... There's nothing to do in this tiny village. What a dull place to live." This wasn't the first time that Vera had...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

That’s obviously flowery language lol. Look at the second chapter “my backyards larger than the universe” lel.

And ofc they mention Andromeda, because our universe is genshin’s and ofc they also mention the fact that Genshins universe is 93 billion LY wide and 14 billion years old—because it’s our universe. But it’s not infinite; that’s why I believe it’s technically possible for it to be a really large domain in the Tree.

 

[MSahla]

That’s obviously flowery language lol. Look at the second chapter “my backyards larger than the universe” lel.

Well thats not the point of it.

But it’s not infinite; that’s why I believe it’s technically possible for it to be a really large domain in the Tree.

Well, Traveler said theres endless distances and endless worlds to Liben.
In chinese version of this, the traveler said infinite.

Anyway, i'm not gonna talk this anymore, since its kinda oot.

 

[Voidnether]

This is easy to debunk ngl.

What he basically tryna do here is to equalize the Four Shades and the Three Moon Sisters, While they never had the same context since the very beginning.

The Moon Sisters only govern a single planet, while the Four Shades and Heavenly Principles are universal (literally). The new lore just confirmed that the Heavenly Principles have already created humanity in another worlds.

Just because the three sisters were also governing these aspects, doesn't mean they're embodying each of these aspects, and they have been confirmed by Alice to shares each of these powers among themselves. So, each of them have the power of Life, Death, Space and Time. Why do they shares these powers? To avoid one of them being too powerful.

No, only Phanes is universal, the universal law is directly reserved for Phanes as Reason itself, it cannot be chainscaled down to the 4 Shades. You can't say it governs a single planet (Teyvat) whilst the Shades are literally the same, the evidence you brought for them to be universal is directly off Phanes, which I said again cannot be used to prove the Shades being universal and whatnot if again, it's only for Reason.

The Moons splitting those powers don't matter, Dottore was shown to be able to use all of them and it makes him transcend the Fate put by Phanes himself, the Moons eventually had to be CM2 either way. It cannot be exclusively reserved for Shades if we are going this way.

 

[MSahla]

No, only Phanes is universal, the universal law is directly reserved for Phanes as Reason itself, it cannot be chainscaled down to the 4 Shades. You can't say it governs a single planet (Teyvat) whilst the Shades are literally the same, the evidence you brought for them to be universal is directly off Phanes, which I said again cannot be used to prove the Shades being universal and whatnot if again, it's only for Reason.

1. You haven't proved any single evidence from the game that said "The Shades are only govern a single planet". Never, and you will never able to do so because theres nothing ingame saying something like that. I bet that.

2. The Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades are one. They're the shadows of the Heavenly Principles itself, this is already obvious.

3. You think the Heavenly Principles' Authority is only Reason? No. The Heavenly Principles were initially alone and they already had 5 Authorities: Reason, Life, Death, Time and Space since the very beginning. Until they split themself and gave form to four of their authorities they had which is what the Four Shades that we know today. You saying as if the Heavenly Principles obtained the authorities of Life, Death, Time and Space only when he got to Teyvat (which is wrong)

The Heavenly Principles already govern the universe with these authorities even before they got into Teyvat. The proof itself they already created humans in another worlds.

 

[Voidnether]

1. You haven't proved any single evidence from the game that said "The Shades are only govern a single planet". Never, and you will never able to do so because theres nothing ingame saying something like that. I bet that.

2. The Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades are one. They're the shadows of the Heavenly Principles itself, this is already obvious.

3. You think the Heavenly Principles' Authority is only Reason? No. The Heavenly Principles were initially alone and they already had 5 Authorities: Reason, Life, Death, Time and Space since the very beginning. Until they split themself and gave form to four of their authorities they had which is what the Four Shades that we know today. You saying as if the Heavenly Principles obtained the authorities of Life, Death, Time and Space only when he got to Teyvat (which is wrong)

1. The same applies with you on the Shades being universal and whatnot, your evidence is off Phanes whilst my evidence is of the Three Moons that you admitted to be a single planet.

2. No? The Four Shades are meant to be a replacement to the Moons, else why would it be established that Reason is superior to the other aspects?

3. I'm talking about Phanes who is Reason itself, life-death, space-time are literally the aspects of Teyvat lmao? Did you read the scans when the Traveler said this to Alice? Alice stated that the Moons are the Laws of Teyvat (like life-death, etc), the same thing applies to Shades.

 

[Furina003]

No, only Phanes is universal, the universal law is directly reserved for Phanes as Reason itself, it cannot be chainscaled down to the 4 Shades. You can't say it governs a single planet (Teyvat) whilst the Shades are literally the same, the evidence you brought for them to be universal is directly off Phanes, which I said again cannot be used to prove the Shades being universal and whatnot if again, it's only for Reason.

The Moons splitting those powers don't matter, Dottore was shown to be able to use all of them and it makes him transcend the Fate put by Phanes himself, the Moons eventually had to be CM2 either way. It cannot be exclusively reserved for Shades if we are going this way.

cm2 does not have to encompass the entire universe, if someone controls the fundamental concept in the realm of 1 city and supports everything in it, it will also be a type 2 concept, regardless of whether shades dominate the universe or not, this rebuttal is irrelevant to refute cm2

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

 

[Voidnether]

cm2 does not have to encompass the entire universe, if someone controls the fundamental concept in the realm of 1 city and supports everything in it, it will also be a type 2 concept, regardless of whether shades dominate the universe or not, this rebuttal is irrelevant to refute cm2

And that's why the Moons are still CM2 like the Shades like I said even if they only encompass a single planet and that is Teyvat. The only problem is that you can only have a single person to be said concept, plus since I debunked the Wenut statement, I'm unsure whether it's still a concept or the laws of Teyvat (we had a statement about this one).

If they're not CM3, they're only Law Manipulation and their respective aspects.

 

[MSahla]

1. The same applies with you on the Shades being universal and whatnot, your evidence is off Phanes whilst my evidence is of the Three Moons that you admitted to be a single planet.

Oho, so you admitted that you cannot proved any single evidence thats said "Shades are only for a single planet" from the game?, thats good to hear.

The Four Shades themselves was one with the Heavenly Principles who are Universal to begin with, and you know that.

2. No? The Four Shades are meant to be a replacement to the Moons, else why would it be established that Reason is superior to the other aspects?

Nor do you ever proved any single statement saying "the four shades exist are only meant to be replacement for the three moons"

No, the Laws of the Three Moons (which govern the planet of Teyvat) were completely replaced by the Primordial Laws from the Heavenly Principles. This Primordial Laws are the universal laws of the Heavenly Principles.

The Sovereign of Sevenfold Calamity would not permit the gods to soften their hearts for the trifling suffering of the world.
Before the primordial laws once set in place, only submission and reverence could be called true love for humanity.
Even the three sisters who dwelt behind jade-hued veils, spinning silver threads of fate for all beings,
spoke of the ancient peoples and mortals ruined by destiny with nothing more than three layers of silence.

3. I'm talking about Phanes who is Reason itself, life-death, space-time are literally the aspects of Teyvat lmao? Did you read the scans when the Traveler said this to Alice?

Do you even hear yourself bro? (Cacucu said)
You basically saying the Space, Time, Life and Death are only exist in Teyvat.

Let me ask you, how do you think the Heavenly Principles manage to create 4 people whose each of them are the embodiments of a certain concepts, beside of the Heavenly Principles themself having Authorities of these concepts to begin with?

Wanna say the Heavenly Principles stole the authorities of the moon sisters? wrong and never stated to be so.

Him being Reason itself alone is biggest proof that he already have the Authorities of Life, Death, Time and Space. Because without Reason, four of these will never exist. Reason are governing each of these.

 

[Furina003]

And that's why the Moons are still CM2 like the Shades like I said even if they only encompass a single planet and that is Teyvat. The only problem is that you can only have a single person to be said concept, plus since I debunked the Wenut statement, I'm unsure whether it's still a concept or the laws of Teyvat (we had a statement about this one).

where did you get this standard from? i already said moon and shades are different, they support the same concept but in different order, moon is the old world order, while shades is the new world order. if they can both control the fundamental concept, it doesn't mean that the concept becomes a type 3 concept, they will still be a type 2 concept and shades will get cm2 along with 3 moons

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, i didn't see any CM here, let alone CM3, remove it

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Im gonna be neutral because i have 0 ball knowledge on CM
but for genshin=/=honkaiverse is ass
We have wind glider chilling in HSS
we have same narwhal being mentioned in hsr by misha
we literally have Ei being Mei variant
Yae Miko being Yae Sakura variant
Asmoday being HoV variant
Teyvat being mentioned in some hsr article (honestly dont have any into on that so u gotta wait ig)
Otto literally observing the verse from divine key
So yeah theres nothing debunking the idea genshin is not in the same verse as hi3/hsr
even different terminology doesnt help the case since even hsr and hi3 dont have consistent terminology
genshin and hsr calls planet “stars”
hi3 calls leafs parralel universes while hsr calls it universe within galaxy (something abt himeko talking abt zandar theory)
and at this point just stop mentioning the verses it helps nothing at all

 

[MSahla]

Im gonna be neutral because i have 0 ball knowledge on CM
but for genshin=/=honkaiverse is ass
We have wind glider chilling in HSS
we have same narwhal being mentioned in hsr by misha
we literally have Ei being Mei variant
Yae Miko being Yae Sakura variant
Asmoday being HoV variant
Teyvat being mentioned in some hsr article (honestly dont have any into on that so u gotta wait ig)
Otto literally observing the verse from divine key
So yeah theres nothing debunking the idea genshin is not in the same verse as hi3/hsr
even different terminology doesnt help the case since even hsr and hi3 dont have consistent terminology
genshin and hsr calls planet “stars”
hi3 calls leafs parralel universes while hsr calls it universe within galaxy (something abt himeko talking abt zandar theory)
and at this point just stop mentioning the verses it helps nothing at all

First of buddy, we get it and we knew that Genshin is on the same Cosmology as both Honkai, but they're still different Universe. Again, Imaginary Tree is a Multiversal structure. I also already explained a few points why they're not on the same universe.

 

[Furina003]

Yeah, i didn't see any CM here, let alone CM3, remove it

I just wanted to ask your opinion: why aren't the concepts of time, life, death, and space categorized as conceptual manipulation?

The shades is that the concepts themselves govern space-time, life, and death, which are fundamental to the formation of reality.

 

[Vietthai96]

I just wanted to ask your opinion: why aren't the concepts of time, life, death, and space categorized as conceptual manipulation?

The shades is that the concepts themselves govern space-time, life, and death, which are fundamental to the formation of reality.

Where it is stated they are concepts themselves?. Don't see such a thing

 

[Furina003]

Where it is stated they are concepts themselves?. Don't see such a thing

I'm pretty sure Sahl explained it fully in the CRT upgrade

Four Shades Conceptual Level Abilities

Another day, another me. This thread will be the continuation of the last one (is it continuation? Idk.) with hopefully more simplified and better explanations. The purpose is to make the Four Shades respective concept abilities to a Conceptual level. Previously, i was asking the Four Shades...

vsbattles.com

 

[AyOgUyS]

Can two people from both sides gimme tldrs cuz I'm already lost

 

[Shiroiyo]

I already said this before that, Genshin are not in the same universe as both HSR and HI3.

Theres a few points that i knew:

Captain time travels to change the past on one of the events, he just failed because of fatehax/rw in the story. The law you speak about is just for physics, but Honkai energy, herrschers powers and imaginary in general don't give a damn about physical laws lol.

 

[MSahla]

Can two people from both sides gimme tldrs cuz I'm already lost

OP trying to say that the Ruler of Time Istaroth are not the embodiment of Time itself by saying the Moon Sisters can also govern the aspect of Time, and if Istaroth temporal omnipresence then the moon sisters too. This is wrong, governing something or controlling something does not necessarily means you are embodying that something, you're just able to control them, and this is the case for the Moon Sisters. Do we wanna say the Moon Sisters are the embodiments of Space, Time, Life and Death because they were governing these aspects in Teyvat? Of course no.

The Ruler of Time Istaroth is already confirmed to be the embodiment of time, because she's Time given form by the Heavenly Principles, who are Reason itself.

While the Moon Sisters, are not embodying any of these aspects whatsoever. They shared these powers amongst themselves and promised to never consolidate them in a single body to avoid one of them being too powerful.


OP also cannot proved his claim that the Shades are only for a single planet nor do their existence are meant to replace the moon sisters only, and he admitted that he cannot proved neither one of these. He tryna say that the shades are only meant for a single planet just because they were created when the Heavenly Principles came to Teyvat, while that's not even proving anything.

Regarding the CM2, we must know that the Heavenly Principles is the Reason that makes up the universe, hence their laws are universal. As someone who is Reason itself and holds the authority of Reason, they also have the Authorities of Life, Death, Time and Space since the beginning, hence why the the Four Shades exist because they were given form by the heavenly principles and embodying each of these authorities. The Heavenly Principles already had these authorities and already established the Primordial Laws of the Universe even before they got into Teyvat. These laws (including the four shades and the fate system) shapes reality, and of course they are the fundamental laws that governs everything in the universe (Harmost' Note I + others).

 

[AyOgUyS]

OP trying to say that the Ruler of Time Istaroth are not the embodiment of Time itself by saying the Moon Sisters can also govern the aspect of Time, and if Istaroth temporal omnipresence then the moon sisters too. This is wrong, governing something or controlling something does not necessarily means you are embodying that something, you're just able to control them, and this is the case for the Moon Sisters. Do we wanna say the Moon Sisters are the embodiments of Space, Time, Life and Death because they were governing these aspects in Teyvat? Of course no.

The Ruler of Time Istaroth is already confirmed to be the embodiment of time, because she's Time given form by the Heavenly Principles, who are Reason itself.

While the Moon Sisters, are not embodying any of these aspects whatsoever. They shared these powers amongst themselves and promised to never consolidate them in a single body to avoid one of them being too powerful.


OP also cannot proved his claim that the Shades are only for a single planet nor do their existence are meant to replace the moon sisters only, and he admitted that he cannot proved neither one of these. He tryna say that the shades are only meant for a single planet just because they were created when the Heavenly Principles came to Teyvat, while that's not even proving anything.

Regarding the CM2, we must know that the Heavenly Principles is the Reason that makes up the universe, hence their laws are universal. As someone who is Reason itself and holds the authority of Reason, they also have the Authorities of Life, Death, Time and Space since the beginning, hence why the the Four Shades exist because they were given form by the heavenly principles and embodying each of these authorities. The Heavenly Principles already had these authorities and already established the Primordial Laws of the Universe even before they got into Teyvat. These laws (including the four shades and the fate system) shapes reality, and of course they are the fundamental laws that governs everything in the universe (Harmost' Note I + others).

so you disagree with OP? may someone who agrees with OP give their tldr from their perspective?