Real World Firearms Un-Cluttering

[User_A_98732165489]

Firearms section in "The Real World" [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Real_World] is cluttered. Too many things at the same time, piled up without any systematics.

So i think we need to split "Firearms" into 2 sections: "Gunpowder Small Arms" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Small Arms" is for small guns; anything a Peak Human could use hand-held. For example, heavy machineguns and anti-material rifles would fit into "Gunpowder Small Arms" category, as would be anything smaller.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held. 20-mm anti-material rifles, punt guns and actual artillery would be "Gunpowder Artillery".

Alternatively, it could be split into 3 sections: "Gunpowder Handguns", "Gunpowder Long Arms" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Handguns" are things which Athletic Human can use one-handed. Such as magnum pistols, PDWs, SMGs and anything less. Actual wield-able-ness takes priority over juridical classification; stock-less de-jure "pistols" would count as Long Arms, since they're borderline-impossible to accurately shoot one-handed - and some very short sawn-off may count as Handguns, since Athletic human can shoot them one-handed (if with bad accuracy).
• "Gunpowder Long Arms" is larger guns; Athletic Human can't wield them one-handed, but Peak Human could use hand-held with two hands. For example, heavy machineguns and anti-material rifles would fit into "Gunpowder Small Arms" category, as would be anything smaller which isn't a Handgun.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held. 20-mm anti-material rifles, punt guns and actual artillery would be "Gunpowder Artillery".

Alternatively, it could be split into 4 sections: "Gunpowder Handguns", "Gunpowder Small Arms", "Gunpowder Light Weapons" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Handguns" are things which Athletic Human can use one-handed. Such as magnum pistols, PDWs, SMGs and anything less. Actual wield-able-ness takes priority over juridical classification; stock-less de-jure "pistols" would count as Long Arms, since they're borderline-impossible to accurately shoot one-handed - and some very short sawn-off may count as Handguns, since Athletic human can shoot them one-handed (if with bad accuracy).
• "Gunpowder Small Arms" is medium guns; Athletic Human can't wield them one-handed, but Athletic Human could use hand-held with two hands. For example, rifles, shotguns, carbines, etc.
• "Gunpowder Light Weapons" are things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held, but which team of 4 Athletic humans can tow around. Heavy machineguns, 20-mm anti-material rifles, large punt guns, 76-mm anti-tank World War 2 era cannons, etc.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even team of 4 Athletic Human can't tow around. Such as massive "Big Bertha" style siege howitzers.

E.G. Kord machinegun can be - barely - used hand-held by Peak Human, so it counts as Long Arms or Light Weapons.

 

[User_A_98732165489]

bump x1

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with spitting it up into subsections since there are so many as well as various sub category divisions, and so far this is a start.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Firearms section in "The Real World" [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Real_World] is cluttered. Too many things at the same time, piled up without any systematics.

So i think we need to split "Firearms" into 2 sections: "Gunpowder Small Arms" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Small Arms" is for small guns; anything a Peak Human could use hand-held. For example, heavy machineguns and anti-material rifles would fit into "Gunpowder Small Arms" category, as would be anything smaller.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held. 20-mm anti-material rifles, punt guns and actual artillery would be "Gunpowder Artillery".

Alternatively, it could be split into 3 sections: "Gunpowder Handguns", "Gunpowder Long Arms" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Handguns" are things which Athletic Human can use one-handed. Such as magnum pistols, PDWs, SMGs and anything less. Actual wield-able-ness takes priority over juridical classification; stock-less de-jure "pistols" would count as Long Arms, since they're borderline-impossible to accurately shoot one-handed - and some very short sawn-off may count as Handguns, since Athletic human can shoot them one-handed (if with bad accuracy).
• "Gunpowder Long Arms" is larger guns; Athletic Human can't wield them one-handed, but Peak Human could use hand-held with two hands. For example, heavy machineguns and anti-material rifles would fit into "Gunpowder Small Arms" category, as would be anything smaller which isn't a Handgun.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held. 20-mm anti-material rifles, punt guns and actual artillery would be "Gunpowder Artillery".

E.G. Kord machinegun can be - barely - used hand-held by Peak Human, so it counts as Long Arms.

Real World Page Entry Addition And Arrangement Modification Discussion Thread (ie/tldr Real World Discussion Thread)

So... this is gonna be a bit daunting and probably insane coming from me due to being a relative newcomer, but I have some ideas I would like to pose regarding the arrangement and status of the Real World Entries (I'm probably gonna spend most of my time either in Content Revision regarding the...

vsbattles.com

Had a similar idea for the whole of The Real World verse page honestly, but it'd be a lot.

Also, I know a 25mm rifle that CAN be used hand-held.

Barrett XM109 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But in general, yeah if it is impossible to carry and use with two hands and needs to be propelled/transported via other means, it'd be artillery.

There's another Wikipedia page that can be used to gauge what goes where.

Small arms and light weapons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Firearms section in "The Real World" [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Real_World] is cluttered. Too many things at the same time, piled up without any systematics.

So i think we need to split "Firearms" into 2 sections: "Gunpowder Small Arms" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Small Arms" is for small guns; anything a Peak Human could use hand-held. For example, heavy machineguns and anti-material rifles would fit into "Gunpowder Small Arms" category, as would be anything smaller.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held. 20-mm anti-material rifles, punt guns and actual artillery would be "Gunpowder Artillery".

Alternatively, it could be split into 3 sections: "Gunpowder Handguns", "Gunpowder Long Arms" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Handguns" are things which Athletic Human can use one-handed. Such as magnum pistols, PDWs, SMGs and anything less. Actual wield-able-ness takes priority over juridical classification; stock-less de-jure "pistols" would count as Long Arms, since they're borderline-impossible to accurately shoot one-handed - and some very short sawn-off may count as Handguns, since Athletic human can shoot them one-handed (if with bad accuracy).
• "Gunpowder Long Arms" is larger guns; Athletic Human can't wield them one-handed, but Peak Human could use hand-held with two hands. For example, heavy machineguns and anti-material rifles would fit into "Gunpowder Small Arms" category, as would be anything smaller which isn't a Handgun.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held. 20-mm anti-material rifles, punt guns and actual artillery would be "Gunpowder Artillery".

E.G. Kord machinegun can be - barely - used hand-held by Peak Human, so it counts as Long Arms.

Gauge (firearms) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's also this 1.5 gauge (37.05mm) calibre handheld punt gun so technically it's more a question of the firearm size than the calibre to an extent at times...

 

[User_A_98732165489]

And also, we have to figure out what human to use. Like:

• Below Average Human - child or elderly.
• Average Human - normal man. Not trained, not soldier.
• Above Average Human - conscript, green soldier or just guy who makes morning exercises every day.
• Athletic Human - seasoned veteran, special forces member, or untrained mutant supersolder (think "infinite endurance" PEPCK-Cmus or "double muscle mass" Myostatin mutation).
• Peak Human - world-class heavylifter, best of the best spec ops soldier, trained mutant supersoldier, soldier in prototype "future soldier" exoskeleton armor.

For example, many guns which are two-handed fro Average human, could be one-handed fro Peak Human. And some large handguns (think magnums) would be too large for average human to use one-handed.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Alternatively, it could be split into 4 sections: "Gunpowder Handguns", "Gunpowder Small Arms", "Gunpowder Light Weapons" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Handguns" are things which Athletic Human can use one-handed. Such as magnum pistols, PDWs, SMGs and anything less. Actual wield-able-ness takes priority over juridical classification; stock-less de-jure "pistols" would count as Long Arms, since they're borderline-impossible to accurately shoot one-handed - and some very short sawn-off may count as Handguns, since Athletic human can shoot them one-handed (if with bad accuracy).
• "Gunpowder Small Arms" is medium guns; Athletic Human can't wield them one-handed, but Athletic Human could use hand-held with two hands. For example, rifles, shotguns, carbines, etc.
• "Gunpowder Light Weapons" are things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held, but which team of 4 Athletic humans can tow around. Heavy machineguns, 20-mm anti-material rifles, large punt guns, 76-mm anti-tank World War 2 era cannons, etc.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even team of 4 Athletic Human can't tow around. Such as massive "Big Bertha" style siege howitzers.

I agree with this as the possibly best option here...

And also, we have to figure out what human to use. Like:

• Below Average Human - child or elderly.
• Average Human - normal man. Not trained, not soldier.
• Above Average Human - conscript, green soldier or just guy who makes morning exercises every day.
• Athletic Human - seasoned veteran, special forces member, or untrained mutant supersolder (think "infinite endurance" PEPCK-Cmus or "double muscle mass" Myostatin mutation).
• Peak Human - world-class heavylifter, best of the best spec ops soldier, trained mutant supersoldier, soldier in prototype "future soldier" exoskeleton armor.

For example, many guns which are two-handed fro Average human, could be one-handed fro Peak Human. And some large handguns (think magnums) would be too large for average human to use one-handed.

But now I need to ask your opinion on what the 1.5 gauge shotgun person above, Scott from Kentucky Ballistics, and the following people in these videos constitute/what they are seen as:

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

I agree with this as the possibly best option here...

But now I need to ask your opinion on what the 1.5 gauge shotgun person above, Scott from Kentucky Ballistics, and the following people in these videos constitute/what they are seen as:

I know though that we can both agree there's very little possibility for accuracy and precision, I'm more curious as to the strength needed to lift and fire them in the first place.

 

[User_A_98732165489]

Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer​

M240 machine gun weights 27.6 lb (12.5 kg), and Barrett M82 weights 29.7 lb (13.5 kg) to 32.7 lb (14.8 kg). Merely lifting 2 of these is Below Average Human+ level by itself; full military gear (armor and such) weights 20-35 KG on top - so if we factor that in, we get to Average Human level - and if we factor in the ammunition, to Average Human+ level.

Actually firing them is... More tricky question, to say the least. You would have to convert joules into newtons, while considering that force of impact is transferred gradually.

Also, check out a guy firing a 76-mm howitzer from his shoulder (it fires low-weight projectiles at low muzzle velocity - but still, this is one of the largest hand-held grenade launchers i have ever seen [https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/High-Impulse_Weapon_System]):

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with the sub-categorization of IRL firearms.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer​

M240 machine gun weights 27.6 lb (12.5 kg), and Barrett M82 weights 29.7 lb (13.5 kg) to 32.7 lb (14.8 kg). Merely lifting 2 of these is Below Average Human+ level by itself; full military gear (armor and such) weights 20-35 KG on top - so if we factor that in, we get to Average Human level - and if we factor in the ammunition, to Average Human+ level.

Actually firing them is... More tricky question, to say the least. You would have to convert joules into newtons, while considering that force of impact is transferred gradually.

Also, check out a guy firing a 76-mm howitzer from his shoulder (it fires low-weight projectiles at low muzzle velocity - but still, this is one of the largest hand-held grenade launchers i have ever seen [https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/High-Impulse_Weapon_System]):

There's still always also MANPATS and MANPADS and general missile and rocket launchers as well, the largest ones I can find are the 44M "Buzogányvető" Páncéltörő Rakéta, SS.10, and OMTAS.

 

[Random-Helper323]

This categorisation does make sense. A few other things on the page could probably benefit from that too, but one at a time, as they say.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

This categorisation does make sense. A few other things on the page could probably benefit from that too, but one at a time, as they say.

Yeah... there's still a few stuff on the Real World Verse page that need their own pages as well, with the images being placeholders for now. (Examples are the Protists and Bacteria and Plants, among others, just look for the ones that only have the image file and no link to a page in general.)

 

[Random-Helper323]

More to do, but for now, let's start with this.

 

[User_A_98732165489]

Maybe the intended amount of hands is difference between Handguns and Longarms/Small Arms? There can be big handguns and small rifles; bug handgun is thing with one pistol handle, and longarm has stock and place for second hand.

Thus: micro-SMGs, sawn-offs, and magnum pistols and "legally it's not rifle, it's really big pistol, it has no stock!" oddities are Handguns - while low-caliber rifles and bulky SMGs are Longarms/Small Arms.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Maybe the intended amount of hands is difference between Handguns and Longarms/Small Arms? There can be big handguns and small rifles; bug handgun is thing with one pistol handle, and longarm has stock and place for second hand.

Thus: micro-SMGs, sawn-offs, and magnum pistols and "legally it's not rifle, it's really big pistol, it has no stock!" oddities are Handguns - while low-caliber rifles and bulky SMGs are Longarms/Small Arms.

There is a valid reason for that approach as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I kind of also feel as if Sniper Weapons should be its own sub-category too.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

I kind of also feel as if Sniper Weapons should be its own sub-category too.

I agree with the sub-categorization of IRL firearms.

Hello to you both by the way. (I've been watching the RVR thread, sorry for the now-deleted messages welp, hope the staff are dealing with stuff in there well.)

Alternatively, it could be split into 4 sections: "Gunpowder Handguns", "Gunpowder Small Arms", "Gunpowder Light Weapons" and "Gunpowder Artillery".

• "Gunpowder Handguns" are things which Athletic Human can use one-handed. Such as magnum pistols, PDWs, SMGs and anything less. Actual wield-able-ness takes priority over juridical classification; stock-less de-jure "pistols" would count as Long Arms, since they're borderline-impossible to accurately shoot one-handed - and some very short sawn-off may count as Handguns, since Athletic human can shoot them one-handed (if with bad accuracy).
• "Gunpowder Small Arms" is medium guns; Athletic Human can't wield them one-handed, but Athletic Human could use hand-held with two hands. For example, rifles, shotguns, carbines, etc.
• "Gunpowder Light Weapons" are things which even Peak Human can't use hand-held, but which team of 4 Athletic humans can tow around. Heavy machineguns, 20-mm anti-material rifles, large punt guns, 76-mm anti-tank World War 2 era cannons, etc.
• "Gunpowder Artillery" is for things which even team of 4 Athletic Human can't tow around. Such as massive "Big Bertha" style siege howitzers.

Anti-tank, anti-material and sniper rifles should be under Small Arms, they can still be carried by one person though needing both hands to carry and fire accurately.
Essentially any weapon that can be and usually is carried and used accurately by 1 hand (and potentially dual wielded) is under Handguns, any weapon that needs both hands to carry and used accurately (though they can also be potentially dual wielded but under certain circumstances) is under Small Arms, any weapon that can be carried and used by 2+ humans (generally a small group/team/force of soldiers) is under Light Weapons, and any weapon beyond that is Artillery.

(That being said, there's always ways people can make weird insane stuff that defies categorisation or makes us rethink how weapons could and should be made, like using different weapons of the same category in different roles (machine guns in the role of a sniper/sharpshooter/marksman), combining multiple weapons in one category to create a weapon that belongs in another category (multi-barrel light weapon turrets made out of connecting multiple small arms together), etc so welp.)

 

[User_A_98732165489]

"Anti-tank, anti-material and sniper rifles should be under Small Arms, they can still be carried by one person though needing both hands to carry and fire accurately.
Essentially any weapon that can be and usually is carried and used accurately by 1 hand (and potentially dual wielded) is under Handguns, any weapon that needs both hands to carry and used accurately (though they can also be potentially dual wielded but under certain circumstances) is under Small Arms, any weapon that can be carried and used by 2+ humans (generally a small group/team/force of soldiers) is under Light Weapons, and any weapon beyond that is Artillery."

There are some edge cases though. Belt-fed machineguns are usually used by group of 2 humans, but can be used by 1 human if needed. Extremely large magnum handguns or extremely fast micro-SMGs may require two hands to fire with any accuracy. Some PDWs or SMGs may be fired one-handed with reasonable accuracy. And so on and so forth.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

"Anti-tank, anti-material and sniper rifles should be under Small Arms, they can still be carried by one person though needing both hands to carry and fire accurately.
Essentially any weapon that can be and usually is carried and used accurately by 1 hand (and potentially dual wielded) is under Handguns, any weapon that needs both hands to carry and used accurately (though they can also be potentially dual wielded but under certain circumstances) is under Small Arms, any weapon that can be carried and used by 2+ humans (generally a small group/team/force of soldiers) is under Light Weapons, and any weapon beyond that is Artillery."

There are some edge cases though. Belt-fed machineguns are usually used by group of 2 humans, but can be used by 1 human if needed. Extremely large magnum handguns or extremely fast micro-SMGs may require two hands to fire with any accuracy. Some PDWs or SMGs may be fired one-handed with reasonable accuracy. And so on and so forth.

(That being said, there's always ways people can make weird insane stuff that defies categorisation or makes us rethink how weapons could and should be made, like using different weapons of the same category in different roles (machine guns in the role of a sniper/sharpshooter/marksman), combining multiple weapons in one category to create a weapon that belongs in another category (multi-barrel light weapon turrets made out of connecting multiple small arms together), etc so welp.)

Yeah, for sure (though arguably shooting positions and physical and mental abilities also matter too (as you already pointed out for the physical and mental abilities), weapons that needs two hands to use when standing or kneeling can be used with one hand when lying down prone/belly down or supine/belly up, normally prone/belly down with rests like tripods, bipods, shooting sticks, sandbags, bench rests or whatnot, and people who are stronger and/or more skilled can more easily use weapons beyond what average humans can do like using extremely large calibre guns or extremely fast-firing guns in either hand, and that's not even going into modifications and accessories and whatnot that can change (or allow for change in) weapons in terms of categorisation and usage as well, like turret mounts with gun shields, fire modes, barrel features like suppressors and compensators and muzzle breaks and free-floating barrels and bull barrels, stocks, grips, scopes and sights and lasers, carrying handles, etc etc).

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Accurizing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[User_A_98732165489]

So, can we start fixing the page already with 4 new categories, or we need to keep improving the plan?

 

[User_A_98732165489]

Again, do i need special permission to un-clutter the page now?

 

[User_A_98732165489]

So: DarkDragonMedeus, Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer, KLOL506, Random-Helper323, and User_A_98732165489 (myself) agree to split Firearms into 4 categories: Gunpowder Handguns, Gunpowder Long-Arms, Gunpowder Light Weapons and Gunpowder Artillery. I think i can start fixing the page now.

 

[User_A_98732165489]

This is done.

 

[User_A_98732165489]

Now, should we divide Gunpowder Long-Arms into "Rifled Gunpowder Long-Arms" and "Smoothbore Gunpowder Long-Arms"? That is, shotguns and pre-industrial guns in one category, rifles SMGs carbines and other in another?

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Now, should we divide Gunpowder Long-Arms into "Rifled Gunpowder Long-Arms" and "Smoothbore Gunpowder Long-Arms"? That is, shotguns and pre-industrial guns in one category, rifles SMGs carbines and other in another?

I'm not sure if we should go that far in-depth, but I do want to also discuss with you about aiding in further categorising other stuff in the Real World verse page in general, though I think we'd have to shift to the official Real World discussion thread for that.

The Real World Discussion Thread

Reviving this thread once again - which level of intelligence fictional species would have, if they are baseline smarter than dolphins?

vsbattles.com

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

This is done.

Nice job!

 

[User_A_98732165489]

"Light weapons" include portable anti-aircraft guns, portable anti-tank guns, recoilless rifles, mortars of a calibre of less than 100 millimetres. Key hiccup there is "portable"; large WW1 and WW2 artillery was portable, if only with truck or ox. Up to and including "portable" 420-mm Big Bertha. If we go that route, we could count naval ship-of-the-line cannons as "light"; just too many edge cases.

And while they did mean "man-portable", hiccup is "how many men?". 420-mm Big Bertha could be moved around by infantrymen, as long as there's an awful lot of infantrymen involved.

That, and both Light Weapons and Artillery parts are very short. Is there need to divide into such small categories?