Kamen Rider Scaling Revision: Part 1 (Showa) Concluded

[BERRIES555]

Introduction​

Hello everyone. By now, most of you should be aware that the Kamen Rider franchise has recently gone through a major, verse-wide revision. These changes affect nearly every Kamen Rider profile we have, and because the franchise has over 54 years of history, it’s far too big to cover in a single thread. This will be the first part of a four-part series that goes through each major era of Kamen Rider. With all that in mind, let’s get started on the first round of updates and take a closer look at how the Showa Riders are being affected.

Profiles Effected​

Kamen Rider Ichigo, Kamen Rider Nigo, Kamen Rider V3, Riderman, Kamen Rider X, Kamen Rider Amazon, Kamen Rider Stronger, Skyrider, Kamen Rider Super-1, Kamen Rider ZX, Kamen Rider Black, Kamen Rider Black RX, Kamen Rider Shin, Kamen Rider ZO, Kamen Rider J, The Crisis Empire, Shadow Moon, Emperor Crisis, General Jack, Maribaron, Bosgun, Getezone, Gedorian, Goushima, Neonoid, Fog Mother

Proposal and Upgrade ​

This revision will be a possible upgrade for Showa Riders. During the events of ZX, the Kamen Riders are faced with the Space Time Rupture System. This is a doomsday weapon made to, as the name suggests, rupture space and time, with the machine being outright stated to be able to destroy all of existence. The riders would then be able to outright withstand attacks from this machine.

Up to this point of the series, Existence would be up to The Space Beyond Space-Time, as the characters wouldn't know what exists beyond this point. That being said, the potency of this machine would then be Complex Multiversal (1-C: 7D) for its ability to destroy existence

Summary​

Due to the cosmology change, this also changes the ratings of multiple profiles. The profiles presented are all currently Low 2-C, but with the new cosmology, it should be 1-C due to the STRS feat.

TLDR: Change all Low 2-C to 1-C
Conclusion

Agree: GrayCraft_Dragon, Gonzalo, Jamesthetaker, Apex_Predator_GX, DarkDragonMedeus, Dalesean027
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Shadowslash125]

Snip

Snip

Getting you both, while also needing you two to ping ActuallySpaceman & Qawsed due to tierscaling.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Getting you both, while also needing you two to ping ActuallySpaceman & Qawsed due to tierscaling.

The former seems to be inactive ATM, so maybe ask @Firestorm808 instead

 

[TsukasayaEmmaDCD]

How does this save Berries squid. Following

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

This is amazing shi. Obviously I would agree

 

[EvoltOz]

I'll wait for @ZeedKZ's input, since he is the main showa guy here iirc

 

[BERRIES555]

Zeed and I had discussed this in the server

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Put me on agreement since this is pretty simple.

 

[Firestorm808]

Can you break down how the Demon World fits in the cosmolocial structure and it being 2-A?

 

[BERRIES555]

So in Kamen Rider, a “World” is 2-A due to it containing infinite timelines and possibilities. The Demon World is a mirrored image to the mainline, 2-A, universe

 

[Firestorm808]

The Demon Word is depicted as a singular parallel dimension to RX's, each with a single Earth. I do not see how it is suggested that Infinite Earths are now involved.

 

[BERRIES555]

The Demon World is meant to reflect the main universe. The main universe is 2-A.

 

[Firestorm808]

The Demon World is meant to reflect the main universe. The main universe is 2-A.

Yes, RX's Earth has infinite branching timelines, but you aren't explaining why more than 1 timeline branch of the Demon World's Earth was destroyed.

 

[BERRIES555]

Oh shit, that one’s on me, my bad. You are correct, the Demon World, while being a mirror universe, is unknown if that’s the universe as a whole or just a separate time line. Others can hop in to say otherwise if that’s not the case.

What about the 7D scaling? Is that one good?

 

[Shadowslash125]

Our cosmology usually represents the universe as one whole earth itself, which is weird, but its portrayal has been like that since forever. It could be the case of that.
But @ZeedKZ should be called over to clarify for this since he's more knowledgeable than us on RX.

 

[Firestorm808]

Oh shit, that one’s on me, my bad. You are correct, the Demon World, while being a mirror universe, is unknown if that’s the universe as a whole or just a separate time line. Others can hop in to say otherwise if that’s not the case.

What about the 7D scaling? Is that one good?

I don't see how the Space Break System works on a 7-D level.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Yup we definitely need to call @ZeedKZ for this

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The Demon World is said to be Earth's shadow, which is similar to how the Mirror World in Ryuki is a mirrored counterpart to the real world. Not only that, Emperor Crisis also stated that as long as Earth keeps being polluted, a new Demon World will be born. Both are talking about how Earth and the Demon World are two sides of the same coin, which makes them have similar cosmology.

However, I think that the scaling proposal might need to be reexamined because the 7-D scaling comes from STRS, which happened in ZX, but the Demon World scaling comes from RX, which is way after that.

 

[EvoltOz]

I don't see how the Space Break System works on a 7-D level.

STRS was stated to be able to destroy all of existence, which at that point in the series includes the Place Beyond Space-Time, which is accepted as 7D on the cosmology page.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Furthermore, Time in the Kamen Rider multiverse is 6-D due to the Time Desert encompasses all time in the multiverse. You can read the Time Desert section in detail in the cosmology blog 'cause I can't link it directly for some reason.

Space Break System effects are stated to transcend time, space and dimensions placing it above the Time Desert.

 

[Firestorm808]

STRS was stated to be able to destroy all of existence, which at that point in the series includes the Place Beyond Space-Time, which is accepted as 7D on the cosmology page.

The provided clip just says that it warps space. By converting matter into energy and vice versa, it has the power to destroy everything.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

At this point, I think the OP can just discard the Demon World scaling since STRS should be the main scaling for Showa Riders.

 

[BERRIES555]

The provided clip just says that it warps space. By converting matter into energy and vice versa, it has the power to destroy everything.

The clip provided was just it in action. The link James provided is the description of the system itself and how it transcends time and space and how it destroys things beyond the space-time level

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The provided clip just says that it warps space. By converting matter into energy and vice versa, it has the power to destroy everything.

I think that might be the translation error. Now I'm not exactly good with Japanese, but when the sub at 0:10 said "space," the word I heard was jigen (次元 - dimension).

Same with this clip when the sub at 0:04 uses "space," but the word heard was jikū (spacetime - 时空). All the scans for the STRS use spacetime and dimensions consistently.

 

[Firestorm808]

I think that might be the translation error. Now I'm not exactly good with Japanese, but when the sub at 0:10 said "space," the word I heard was jigen (次元 - dimension).

Same with this clip when the sub at 0:04 uses "space," but the word heard was jikū (spacetime - 时空). All the scans for the STRS use spacetime and dimensions consistently.

Let me know when you find the Japanese subtitles for that scene.

Will go over the imgur link.

 

[Firestorm808]

Space Break System effects are stated to transcend time, space and dimensions placing it above the Time Desert.

Can someone elaborate the context of dimensions at the time of ZX? What prior dimensions are they talking about?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Can someone elaborate the context of dimensions at the time of ZX? What prior dimensions are they talking about?

If we're talking about dimensions in chronological order. ZX was aired in 1984, and prior to the special, there was the Super Dimension in Denziman (1980) which was accepted as 5-D in the cosmology page.

While the Time Desert concept was first introduced in Den-O (2007-2008), it has always existed in-universe as a sort of universal concept. Denliner was able to travel to Goranger's time (1976), meaning that the Time Desert encompassed all times in Kamen Rider and Super Sentai (aka the Toei Toku verse as a whole), which is why it received the 6-D rating.

 

[Firestorm808]

If we're talking about dimensions in chronological order. ZX was aired in 1984, and prior to the special, there was the Super Dimension in Denziman (1980) which was accepted as 5-D in the cosmology page.

While the Time Desert concept was first introduced in Den-O (2007-2008), it has always existed in-universe as a sort of universal concept. Denliner was able to travel to Goranger's time (1976), meaning that the Time Desert encompassed all times in Kamen Rider and Super Sentai (aka the Toei Toku verse as a whole), which is why it received the 6-D rating.

So to clarify, there is no depiction of other dimensions (parallel or otherwise) in the Kamen Rider Series prior to ZX, just other Toei properties.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

So to clarify, there is no depiction of other dimensions (parallel or otherwise) in the Kamen Rider Series prior to ZX, just other Toei properties.

In Kamen Rider Stronger, there was a monster with the ability Four-Dimension World Hypnosis, which hypnotized children and transported them to the fourth dimension.

In Kamen Rider Super-1, the refrigerator monster Kogoenbee abducts children and transports them to Utopian, a fourth-dimensional world.

Scans for these two are in the "The Fourth Dimension" section of the cosmology blog. But just in case, the J.A.K.Q. Dengekitai vs. Gorenger movie mentions Kamen Riders and Kikaider, which still implies that all series are aware of each other.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Let me know when you find the Japanese subtitles for that scene.

I can't find the Japanese sub for now, but the entire special episode is posted on the official Toei channel.

Here are the important parts of the clip.

 

[Firestorm808]

Space Break System effects are stated to transcend time, space and dimensions placing it above the Time Desert.

I've gone over the text.

While I agree that the Space-Time Rupture System has a Range of "At least 4-D, possibly higher," it's explicitly stated to directly affect objects/matter and energy.

From what's been provided so far, I haven't seen any examples of higher dimensional objects/matter that would be affected that would give credence to Tier 2/1 AP/Hax.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

This part here claimed that STRS can destroy "everything in existence." After Ambassador Darkness used the system, the whole background showed nothing, meaning everything was erased. He couldn't just specifically target the Rider because the monsters in the center were also erased.

 

[Firestorm808]

This part here claimed that STRS can destroy "everything in existence." After Ambassador Darkness used the system, the whole background showed nothing, meaning everything was erased. He couldn't just specifically target the Rider because the monsters in the center were also erased.

Do we have the Japanese words used for that phrase?

Yes, destroying all matter around the Riders can leave a black empty space. I don't see how that suggests Tier 2 or above?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Because Ambassador Darkness literally said that it's destroying spacetime as he was using it on the Riders? Destroying matter and affecting spacetime are not two different applications of the STRS, it's doing everything all at once.

 

[Firestorm808]

Because Ambassador Darkness literally said that it's destroying spacetime as he was using it on the Riders? Destroying matter and affecting spacetime are not two different applications of the STRS, it's doing everything all at once.

The captions in the clip provided just says that spacetime was warped, not destroyed. The scans provided just say that matter/objects are destroyed.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Do we have the Japanese words used for that phrase?

This is what I got after extracting from YouTube subtitles:

は団は恐怖の秘密兵器時空破断システムを開発したいっう機として使用されれば次元を超越し物質とエネルギーの交換をすことで一瞬にしてすべてのものを消滅させることができるこの時空を破談システムの完成は世界の壊滅を意味す

The captions in the clip provided just says that spacetime was warped, not destroyed. The scans provided just say that matter/objects are destroyed.

I don't think that would change anything? If a character can warp the entire spacetime continuum but not destroy or create it, does that mean they aren't Low 2-C?

The background was black not just because all matter was destroyed but because the whole reality was getting affected, and the scans pretty much stated its effect was beyond the space-time scale. When Ambassador Darkness got Rider Kick'ed by ZX, he remained in the same position as before, so the effects are not limited to where the Rider was.

 

[Firestorm808]

This is what I got after extracting from YouTube subtitles:

は団は恐怖の秘密兵器時空破断システムを開発したいっう機として使用されれば次元を超越し物質とエネルギーの交換をすことで一瞬にしてすべてのものを消滅させることができるこの時空を破談システムの完成は世界の壊滅を意味す

DeepL: The organization aims to develop a terrifying secret weapon: the Space-Time Disruption System. If used as intended, it can transcend dimensions and instantly annihilate all matter and energy through their exchange. The completion of this Space-Time Disruption System would mean the destruction of the world.

In terms of destruction, it's just matter and energy, not dimensional spaces.

I don't think that would change anything? If a character can warp the entire spacetime continuum but not destroy or create it, does that mean they aren't Low 2-C?

My initial concern was that it was constantly proposed that the system destroys dimensional spaces when that is not the case.

To my understanding, the system exchanges 3-D matter to warp 3-D Space. Do we have any examples of 4-D and up matter that would in turn affect their respective spaces?

I will have to confer with other staff if this falls under "significantly affecting"

The background was black not just because all matter was destroyed but because the whole reality was getting affected, and the scans pretty much stated its effect was beyond the space-time scale. When Ambassador Darkness got Rider Kick'ed by ZX, he remained in the same position as before, so the effects are not limited to where the Rider was.

The Riders are in a 3-D Space. If all matter around them was destroyed, they would still be in a black void and still inside a 3-D Space.

Your input on this thread is appreciated:
@DarkDragonMedeus
@ActuallySpaceMan42
@Elizhaa
@AKM sama
@Theglassman12

 

[Jamesthetaker]

DeepL: The organization aims to develop a terrifying secret weapon: the Space-Time Disruption System. If used as intended, it can transcend dimensions and instantly annihilate all matter and energy through their exchange. The completion of this Space-Time Disruption System would mean the destruction of the world.

In terms of destruction, it's just matter and energy.

It erases matter/energy, yes. But as the translation you showed there, plus all the scans provided, its effects "transcend" dimensions and space-time.

My initial concern was that it was constantly proposed that the system destroys spaces when that is not the case.

To my understanding, the system exchanges 3-D matter to warp 3-D Space. Do we have any examples of 4-D and up matter that would in turn affect their respective spaces?

The system exchanges 3-D matter to beyond. I don't know why you're saying it's limited to 3-D when all the evidence so far states it can go beyond that, i.e., spacetime.

I will have to confer with other staff if this falls under "significantly affecting"

The Riders are in a 3-D Space. If all matter around them was destroyed, they would still be in a black void and still inside a 3-D Space.

Only if the system is stated to annihilate matter through exchange to energy can that be the case; however, it's doing that while affecting spacetime and dimensions. Matter destruction is only a small part of what it does.

But it would be great if you could bring in more staff as well.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

To help the staff who come later understand the main arguments for 1-C scaling:

A machine called the Space-Time Rupture System has the ability to exchange matter for energy while warping spacetime; its effects are stated to transcend space-time and dimensions. It is stated to be capable of destroying everything, and when used on the Kamen Riders, the background was left blank, implying that it affects the entire reality.

As for why the system is 7-D is because it would be beyond all the existing dimensions and the Time Desert in the Toei Tokusatsu multiverse.

• The existing dimensions include all the mentions of the fourth dimension across various series, the Super Dimension in Denziman (5-D), and the Ideon higher dimension (5-D).
• Time Desert is 6-D because it encompasses all time in the multiverse, including all the above dimensions, therefore making it 6-D.

In addition, there is also "The place beyond Space-Time," which is 7-D because it is a void-like dimension beyond conventional space and time. The STRS should be able to affect this dimension per the statement of destroying everything or, at least, reaching this level of existence.