[Bleach] Shinigami, except Ichibei does NOT have EE buddy 😭💔 (Thread accepted)

[Saqphire]

Following this thread limiting the Quincy's existence erasure to be accepted, points have been brought up in the thread against the other accepted Existence Erasure attacks in the verse. This entry will adress them

Entries Being Adressed​

1. Yamamoto's Existence Erasure
2. Shinigami's Existence Erasure
3. Sui-Feng's Existence Erasure
3. Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration

Yamamoto's Existence Erasure​

The argument stems from Yamamoto saying that his Zanka no Tachi: East doesn't burn nor emit an explosive flame, it merely blows away everything it touches without a trace, taking the latter statement literally to mean blow everything without a trace.

The problems I have with that is that not only is "blowing everything away without a trace" not sufficient evidence to concretely prove it was existence erasure or simply just a very hot vaporisation, we see in the anime (which takes precedence over the manga) that it clearly fragments the stuff it touches, meaning Yamamoto's statement is a massive hyperbole as it, clearly, doesn't wipe everything away without a trace

People may argue that he would still have existence erasure via his other usage of his Bankai, which is Zanka no Tachi: North which was apparently said in a databook to erase what it strikes in a databook entry about the ability. However, translating the raws thanks to Dattebayo only gives us that it would "completely obliterate" what it strikes, which, like South, would not be concrete evidence for proving EE in the first place. Furthermore, extrapolating the kanji, the relevant one that is talking about destruction is "消し飛ばす" or "keshitobasu" which simply means to "blow away/scatter away/blast away (via an explosion)". This translation would be very congruent with the anime, where Yamamoto simply blows away the skeletons and Royd in a single strike, however it would not be sufficient in proving EE

Shinigami's Existence Erasure​

This one stems from characters who can use Hado 54: Haien which is stated to eradicate the very existence of it's target in one of the databooks, with it's raws even being confirmed to say so by SeijiSetto. This is a very clear-cut statement and although people pretty much claimed in the other thread that it was hyperbole for reasons I still don't know why. There is however another databook entry saying that, according to SeijiSetto, that it reduces the target completely to ash with nothing left, which lends further credence to Haien not really, being EE

The only issues I can think of with the statement is that in the manga, Tosen's usage of it is the only usage of it in the series. Meaning his example is the only thing we have to go on for determining how the ability works and the panels don't really concretely showcase that it's truly an existence erasure, but not only that, Mayuri directly says that only Quincies can erase hollows from existence and Tosen is not a Quincy, so his example being used on Grimmjow, a Hollow, is a faulty comparison to prove that it can EE stuff.

The other argument that I myself said in the other thread would be the fact that Quincy and Shinigami narrative dynamic is about the former erasing Hollows from existence, which is established to mean removing them from the soul cycle (again, elaborated on by Kubo) which is why the latter wants to eradicate the former to prevent the collapse of the Universe.

Because of this, it would be narratively inconsistent for randoms in Soul Society to also have existence erasure, especially if said existence erasure doesn't actually erase them from the cycle unlike Ichibei's Futen Taisatsuryo which is stated to reduce everything about a person into nothingness, preventing reincarnation aswell. Futen Taisatsuryo is accepted to be Existence Erasure because of this and I have no problem with that either, as it's properties are exactly the same as the Quincy EE, just not hollow-exclusive and is 100% consistent with what Kubo considers to be EE in the first place

Sui-Feng's Existence Erasure​

The argument for Soi Fon's EE is similar to Yamamoto's Existence Erasure where it's stated in CFYOW that her Shikai erases people and they disappear without a trace. This application suffers from the same narrative problem that Yamamoto (and all Shinigamis have, except Ichibei) via the fact that her EE has no showings of erasing someone from the Soul Cycle as Kubo intended EE to be. Plus the wording is, like for Zanka no Tachi: East, not necessarily indicative of Existence Erasure either, as someone "disappearing without a trace" is super vague. I personally conclude that it shouldn't be there tbh

Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration​

For me to adress Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration, I need to adress Aizen's (possibly) existence erasure. Unlike the other three arguments for EE, I am fine with Aizen having existence erasure overall, it's very blatant and arguments against it would just not hold up (plus I don't desire nor agree with bringing back 2018-esque debates about it). The problem is that the blog asserts that Aizen's reiatsu EEs him and he comes back from said EE, but the problem with that is that Aizen is only accepted to have Existence Erasure in the form after he obtains his Eclosion form, and the feat happened before he even reached his Chrysialis form in the first place.

Now, could Aizen still have the possibility of having EE before he obtained Eclosion? Yes indeed, there is nothing saying or implying that he couldn't except for his base form where he didn't erase Soi Fon when he reiatsu negged her hax, but that remains strictly a possibility, not a fact, so the argument for Aizen regenerating from his own existence erasing Reiatsu would be a possibly Mid-Godly Regeneration at best from that feat.

EDIT: Keep in mind that despite all of this, Aizen still would retain his regeneration due to Mayuri saying that nothing the Soul Society has can kill him for one reason or another, and the Soul Society has Ichibei and his EE which I elaborated on above

EDIT 2: As I have said in this thread, I'm not sure about Mayuri's statement referring to Futen Taisatsuryo specifically anymore. If there are concrete evidence that he would know, then I can agree with mid-godly for Aizen (even higher, but thats another topic)

Solution​

• For Yamamoto's, Haien's and Soi Fon's argument, simply delete the Existence Erasure from their pages.
• For Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration, he either
  • Keeps it via Futen Taisatsuryo still being an impossibility thanks to the Mayuri argument. However the blog still needs to be remade as neither the Mugetsu angle nor the Yamamoto/Soi Fon/Haien EE angle would work anymore for arguing it solidly, and his own EE would be a possibility at best
  • Doesn't keep it, and goes down to a lower form of regeneration as a solid rating

Agree: Duedate8898, Godernet, Damage3245 (Agrees with all but Aizen keeping Mid-Godly Regeneration)
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Seeing bleach's biggest goon post a downgrade like this is funny ash, agreed with Yamamoto getting the boot up his ass, neutral on the others

 

[Saqphire]

Seeing bleach's biggest goon post a downgrade like this is funny ash, agreed with Yamamoto getting the boot up his ass, neutral on the others

A good highball needs to be accurate, am I right?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I thought another justification for Aizen's regeneration is that Ichibe's Futen Taisatsuryo can't kill him?

 

[Saqphire]

I thought another justification for Aizen's regeneration is that Ichibe's Futen Taisatsuryo can't kill him?

Good catch. The Mid-Godly regen arg still works then

 

[Saqphire]

I thought another justification for Aizen's regeneration is that Ichibe's Futen Taisatsuryo can't kill him?

Thinking about it, the only counter-arg I can think of is that there is the possibility of Mayuri not knowing about Futen Taisatsuryo so he wouldn't think of using Ichibei to erase him from existence

 

[Nierre]

Not sure what's up with some of the links but I'm getting straight up **** (NSFW) on some of them

 

[Saqphire]

Not sure what's up with some of the links but I'm getting straight up **** (NSFW) on some of them

Oh ffs it's probably the image host cuz I didnt see them due to me having Brave/adblock

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah the links work fine for me, it's probably PostImg showing ads on mobile

 

[SeijiSetto]

Following this thread limiting the Quincy's existence erasure to be accepted, points have been brought up in the thread against the other accepted Existence Erasure attacks in the verse. This entry will adress them

Entries Being Adressed​

1. Yamamoto's Existence Erasure
2. Shinigami's Existence Erasure
3. Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration

Yamamoto's Existence Erasure​

The argument stems from Yamamoto saying that his Zanka no Tachi: East doesn't burn nor emit an explosive flame, it merely blows away everything it touches without a trace, taking the latter statement literally to mean blow everything without a trace.

The problems I have with that is that not only is "blowing everything away without a trace" not sufficient evidence to concretely prove it was existence erasure or simply just a very hot vaporisation, we see in the anime (which takes precedence over the manga) that it clearly fragments the stuff it touches, meaning Yamamoto's statement is a massive hyperbole as it, clearly, doesn't wipe everything away without a trace

People may argue that he would still have existence erasure via his other usage of his Bankai, which is Zanka no Tachi: North which was apparently said in a databook to erase what it strikes in a databook entry about the ability. However, translating the raws thanks to Dattebayo only gives us that it would "completely obliterate" what it strikes, which, like South, would not be concrete evidence for proving EE in the first place. Furthermore, extrapolating the kanji, the relevant one that is talking about destruction is "消し飛ばす" or "keshitobasu" which simply means to "blow away/scatter away/blast away (via an explosion)". This translation would be very congruent with the anime, where Yamamoto simply blows away the skeletons and Royd in a single strike, however it would not be sufficient in proving EE

Shinigami's Existence Erasure​

This one stems from characters who can use Hado 54: Haien which is stated to eradicate the very existence of it's target in one of the databooks, with it's raws even being confirmed to say so by SeijiSetto. This is a very clear-cut statement and me personally I don't have too much issue with it although people pretty much claimed in the other thread that it was hyperbole for reasons I still don't know why.

The only issues I can think of with the statement is that in the manga, Tosen's usage of it is the only usage of it in the series. Meaning his example is the only thing we have to go on for determining how the ability works and the panels don't really concretely showcase that it's truly an existence erasure, but not only that, Mayuri directly says that only Quincies can erase hollows from existence and Tosen is not a Quincy, so his example being used on Grimmjow, a Hollow, is a faulty comparison to prove that it can EE stuff.

The other argument that I myself said in the other thread would be the fact that Quincy and Shinigami narrative dynamic is about the former erasing Hollows from existence, which is established to mean removing them from the soul cycle (again, elaborated on by Kubo) which is why the latter wants to eradicate the former to prevent the collapse of the Universe so it would be narratively inconsistent for randoms in Soul Society to also have existence erasure, especially if said existence erasure doesn't actually erase them from the cycle.

Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration​

For me to adress Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration, I need to adress Aizen's (possibly) existence erasure. Unlike the other two arguments for EE, I am fine with Aizen having existence erasure overall, it's very blatant and arguments against it would just not hold up (plus I don't desire nor agree with bringing back 2018-esque debates about it). The problem is that the blog asserts that Aizen's reiatsu EEs him and he comes back from said EE, but the problem with that is that Aizen is only accepted to have Existence Erasure in the form after he obtains his Eclosion form, and the feat happened before he even reached his Chrysialis form in the first place.

Now, could Aizen still have the possibility of having EE before he obtained Eclosion? Yes indeed, there is nothing saying or implying that he couldn't except for his base form where he didn't erase Soi Fon when he reiatsu negged her hax, but that remains strictly a possibility, not a fact, so the argument for Aizen regenerating from his own existence erasing Reiatsu would be a possibly Mid-Godly Regeneration at best from that feat.

EDIT: Keep in mind that despite all of this, Aizen still would retain his regeneration due to Mayuri saying that nothing the Soul Society has can kill him for one reason or another, and the Soul Society has Ichibei and his Futen Taisatsuryo which is stated to reduce everything about a person into nothingness, preventing reincarnation aswell. Futen Taisatsuryo is accepted to be Existence Erasure because of this and I have no problem with that either, as it's properties are exactly the same as the Quincy EE, just not hollow-exclusive

Solution​

• For Yamamoto's argument, simply delete the Existence Erasure from his page
• For Haien, either remove it, or put it as possibly EE.
• For Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration, he still keeps it via Futen Taisatsuryo still being an impossibility thanks to the Mayuri argument. However the blog still needs to be remade as neither the Mugetsu angle nor the Yamamoto EE angle would work anymore for arguing it solidly, and the Haien/his own EE would be a possibility at best

(i'm on mobile so forgive me for not cropping the post i'm quoting down to the relevant part)
one of the other scans you asked me to translate said it reduces the target completely to ash with nothing left, that seems like a point in favour of "it isn't EE and that one passage was hyperbolic"

 

[Adam1396]

Without a trace still is another way to put ee. Vaporization still leaves trace. And we do clearly see whatever he cut simply vanished. No sign of vaporization.

Hado 54 is self explanatory.
What mayuri implied is by direct soul destruction, shinigami usually purifies while quincies erases. Quincies can't purify.

Aizen's part was already addressed above.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

literally got 10 inches through those links

 

[Saqphire]

Without a trace still is another way to put ee. Vaporization still leaves trace. And we do clearly see whatever he cut simply vanished. No sign of vaporization.

Fragmentation is still a trace

 

[Adam1396]

Fragmentation is still a trace

Yes, trace of what was not touched.
If a part vanish, other parts are supposed to get fragmented anyway

 

[Saqphire]

literally got 10 inches through those links

Not sure what's up with some of the links but I'm getting straight up **** (NSFW) on some of them

Changed the image host now

 

[Saqphire]

Yes, trace of what was not touched.
If a part vanish, other parts are supposed to get fragmented anyway

This part, which ZNT: South touches in it's blast radius, is the same part being fragmented. Thus it's not an external attached thing being fragmented, it's the attack that fragments what it touches. Unless you're saying that this part is what ZNT: South touches and NOT the blast radius, which still fails because it leaves a spark, which is a trace and thus is still not EE

Also, I added another entry about Haien

 

[R81handman]

I agree with all of this. Especailly Hado 54: Haien has conflicting statemnts in the databooks. Databook 2 states it is EE while the later Databook 3 states it reduces to ashes. And there is this fact that Higher Level Kido are meant to be more powerful the higher the number is. This is conflicted by Hado #90. Kurohitsugi which is atomizes people through deconstruction on atomic scale and is not EE.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Disagree with Yamamoto. He clearly states what each aspect of his Bankai clearly does. Why would he randonly make a hyperbolic statement about east blowing away everything without a trace.

You argue because you see some rubble in a huge crevice he makes it is not literal. He makes the same crevice in the manga as well but more “cleanly”. Does Yama not know his own Bankai apparently emits an explosive force?

You also write an entire section about the narrative dynamic of Shinigami and Quincy making it impossible for Shinigami to have EE but also state it’s fine for Ichibei to have it who is also a Shinigami? Obviously this means it’s possible for Shinigami to EE thing. They simply don’t because they’d be just like the Quincy and that’s what makes them polar opposites.

 

[Saqphire]

Disagree with Yamamoto. He clearly states what each aspect of his Bankai clearly does. Why would he randonly make a hyperbolic statement about east blowing away everything without a trace.

Yamamoto also says that West is as hot as the Sun yet said West is capable of destroying the Soul Society. Yamamoto is capable of explaining his Bankai with some flowery flare to fit the thematics of his Bankai without said flare being seen as hyperliteral. We know the facts, Yamamoto's South doesn't emit a flame yet it's still extremely potent, that's all there is to it

You argue because you see some rubble in a huge crevice he makes it is not literal. He makes the same crevice in the manga as well but more “cleanly”. Does Yama not know his own Bankai apparently emits an explosive force?

TYBW Anime takes credence over the manga as I clearly stated in the beginning, so retcons happen.

You also write an entire section about the narrative dynamic of Shinigami and Quincy making it impossible for Shinigami to have EE but also state it’s fine for Ichibei to have it who is also a Shinigami? Obviously this means it’s possible for Shinigami to EE thing. They simply don’t because they’d be just like the Quincy and that’s what makes them polar opposites.

Because random Shinigamis with a normal Hado having the same potency as a Squad Zero leader is completely absurd and not equatable whatsoever. Ichibei's existence erasure needs a whole ritual literally taking 100 days from a Universe just to erase one person and said technique being hyped up as such, so this hype for Ichibei's EE would make zero narrative sense if all it did was do something that normal Shinigamis can do, especially given the fact that Ichibei, who is also a Shinigami, can also use Haien as a result

 

[Fugo2022]

Following this thread limiting the Quincy's existence erasure to be accepted, points have been brought up in the thread against the other accepted Existence Erasure attacks in the verse. This entry will adress them

Entries Being Adressed​

1. Yamamoto's Existence Erasure
2. Shinigami's Existence Erasure
3. Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration

Yamamoto's Existence Erasure​

The argument stems from Yamamoto saying that his Zanka no Tachi: East doesn't burn nor emit an explosive flame, it merely blows away everything it touches without a trace, taking the latter statement literally to mean blow everything without a trace.

The problems I have with that is that not only is "blowing everything away without a trace" not sufficient evidence to concretely prove it was existence erasure or simply just a very hot vaporisation, we see in the anime (which takes precedence over the manga) that it clearly fragments the stuff it touches, meaning Yamamoto's statement is a massive hyperbole as it, clearly, doesn't wipe everything away without a trace

People may argue that he would still have existence erasure via his other usage of his Bankai, which is Zanka no Tachi: North which was apparently said in a databook to erase what it strikes in a databook entry about the ability. However, translating the raws thanks to Dattebayo only gives us that it would "completely obliterate" what it strikes, which, like South, would not be concrete evidence for proving EE in the first place. Furthermore, extrapolating the kanji, the relevant one that is talking about destruction is "消し飛ばす" or "keshitobasu" which simply means to "blow away/scatter away/blast away (via an explosion)". This translation would be very congruent with the anime, where Yamamoto simply blows away the skeletons and Royd in a single strike, however it would not be sufficient in proving EE

Shinigami's Existence Erasure​

This one stems from characters who can use Hado 54: Haien which is stated to eradicate the very existence of it's target in one of the databooks, with it's raws even being confirmed to say so by SeijiSetto. This is a very clear-cut statement and me personally I don't have too much issue with it although people pretty much claimed in the other thread that it was hyperbole for reasons I still don't know why. There is another databook entry saying that, according to SeijiSetto, that it reduces the target completely to ash with nothing left, which lends further credence to Haien not really, being EE

The only issues I can think of with the statement is that in the manga, Tosen's usage of it is the only usage of it in the series. Meaning his example is the only thing we have to go on for determining how the ability works and the panels don't really concretely showcase that it's truly an existence erasure, but not only that, Mayuri directly says that only Quincies can erase hollows from existence and Tosen is not a Quincy, so his example being used on Grimmjow, a Hollow, is a faulty comparison to prove that it can EE stuff.

The other argument that I myself said in the other thread would be the fact that Quincy and Shinigami narrative dynamic is about the former erasing Hollows from existence, which is established to mean removing them from the soul cycle (again, elaborated on by Kubo) which is why the latter wants to eradicate the former to prevent the collapse of the Universe so it would be narratively inconsistent for randoms in Soul Society to also have existence erasure, especially if said existence erasure doesn't actually erase them from the cycle.

Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration​

For me to adress Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration, I need to adress Aizen's (possibly) existence erasure. Unlike the other two arguments for EE, I am fine with Aizen having existence erasure overall, it's very blatant and arguments against it would just not hold up (plus I don't desire nor agree with bringing back 2018-esque debates about it). The problem is that the blog asserts that Aizen's reiatsu EEs him and he comes back from said EE, but the problem with that is that Aizen is only accepted to have Existence Erasure in the form after he obtains his Eclosion form, and the feat happened before he even reached his Chrysialis form in the first place.

Now, could Aizen still have the possibility of having EE before he obtained Eclosion? Yes indeed, there is nothing saying or implying that he couldn't except for his base form where he didn't erase Soi Fon when he reiatsu negged her hax, but that remains strictly a possibility, not a fact, so the argument for Aizen regenerating from his own existence erasing Reiatsu would be a possibly Mid-Godly Regeneration at best from that feat.

EDIT: Keep in mind that despite all of this, Aizen still would retain his regeneration due to Mayuri saying that nothing the Soul Society has can kill him for one reason or another, and the Soul Society has Ichibei and his Futen Taisatsuryo which is stated to reduce everything about a person into nothingness, preventing reincarnation aswell. Futen Taisatsuryo is accepted to be Existence Erasure because of this and I have no problem with that either, as it's properties are exactly the same as the Quincy EE, just not hollow-exclusive

Solution​

• For Yamamoto's argument, simply delete the Existence Erasure from his page
• For Haien, either remove it, or put it as possibly EE.
• For Aizen's Mid-Godly Regeneration, he still keeps it via Futen Taisatsuryo still being an impossibility thanks to the Mayuri argument. However the blog still needs to be remade as neither the Mugetsu angle nor the Yamamoto EE angle would work anymore for arguing it solidly, and the Haien/his own EE would be a possibility at best

Staff Vote:​

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

Disagree(I am the biggest hater of bleach

 

[Adam1396]

This part, which ZNT: South touches in it's blast radius,

It's east that has ee. Why are you bringing south.

Yamamoto also says that West is as hot as the Sun yet said West is capable of destroying the Soul Society.

What point are you even making here!!

Being as hot as sun doesn’t guarantee planet destruction. Here Soul society can be planet, dimension or even universe but one thing sure it's above gremmy's outerspace creation feat.

Another thing to be noted that's not what was stated. He said if he stays in bankai too long, SS would be destroyed. And the heat was emitting from his reatsu, there's a thing about reatsu control. And we have seen thermal eruption actually destroying dimension by inferior weapon.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yamamoto also says that West is as hot as the Sun yet said West is capable of destroying the Soul Society. Yamamoto is capable of explaining his Bankai with some flowery flare to fit the thematics of his Bankai without said flare being seen as hyperliteral. We know the facts, Yamamoto's South doesn't emit a flame yet it's still extremely potent, that's all there is to it

Is sorry what? Is west not as hot as the core the sun which is 15,000,000? I don’t get the destroy soul society part. He was going to destroy the planet over extended use.

South is just necromancy, which again he clearly explains what it does. So why would 1 aspect be pure hyberboke wheb 3/4 are literal in what they do?

East - tip destroys what it touches without a trace.
West - His reiatsu becomes a 15,000,000C Aura.
South - Necromancy.
North - Ranged East.

TYBW Anime takes credence over the manga as I clearly stated in the beginning, so retcons happen.

There is no retcon here though lol. It’s the same statement with a bit of artistic liberties to make a cool fight. He makes the same crevice in the manga.

Also the manga is still used. Both are canon. Or should we delete every single thing from the profiles not explicitly used in the anime such as the mechanics of Aizen’s immortality and what The Almighty does? Or maybe even the mechanics of Yhwach’s soul division?

Because random Shinigamis with a normal Hado having the same potency as a Squad Zero leader who's existence erasure needs a whole ritual literally taking 100 days from a Universe just to erase one person and said technique being hyped up as such are NOT the same at all. The hype for Ichibei's EE would make zero narrative sense if all it did was do something that normal Shinigamis can do, especially given the fact that Ichibei, who is also a Shinigami, can also use Haien as a result

I made no remarks about Haien. My point was you wrote it as a narrative impossibility that Shinigami cannot EE which is clearly proven false thanks to Ichibe. Them not going around exterminating hollows like Quincy is only because of their ideological differences.

 

[Apotheosis69]

I do agree with the anime changing Yamamoto's Bankai still has debris. Even if its artistic liberties… its still a change.


Haien is the clearest of Hyperboles, with later databook contradicting it. That EE should Completely go, no Possibly.


Lets not forget, there is Sui-Feng's Suzumebachi which is Soul Erasure, for Aizen's Mid-Godly.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Using Mayuri's statement about quinces wouldn't make sense to discredit soul reapers having EE in my own opinion. Quincy's EE removes souls from the soul cycle it isn't normal EE. That's why theirs is so potent

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I do agree with the anime changing Yamamoto's Bankai still has debris. Even if its artistic liberties… its still a change.

Except it’s not changed. It kept the same explaination which is blow away without a trace. Is Yamamoto an idiot that doesn’t understand the mechanics of his own Bankai? Specifically East?

 

[Apotheosis69]

It quite literally is changed. And ask that to Kubo himself for directing the scene of him using East

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It quite literally is changed. And ask that to Kubo himself for directing the scene of him using East

I didn’t know Kubo was an animator. Yama touches the ground with the tip of the sword followed by a swath of land getting deleted. This is the same as the manga followed by the exact same explanation of East.

 

[YmTheSuper]

I always took Yamamoto's statement as him saying that the tip of his sword is so hot that everything it touches is destroyed immediately without needing to be burned or engulfed by flames.

The heat of the sword is the cause of the destruction so it isn't existence erasure. Just because he says "without a trace" doesn't mean automatically that it's existence erasure, not every expression is hyperliteral. (Even things like vaporization and atomization have effects that are potent enough to be described as "destruction without a trace", also "without a trace" is a commonly used idiom).

Also the anime showings of his bankai support this.

 

[Saqphire]

Is sorry what? Is west not as hot as the core the sun which is 15,000,000? I don’t get the destroy soul society part. He was going to destroy the planet over extended use.

South is just necromancy, which again he clearly explains what it does. So why would 1 aspect be pure hyberboke wheb 3/4 are literal in what they do?

East - tip destroys what it touches without a trace.

Destroying without a trace is not necessarily EE as I and others have said

West - His reiatsu becomes a 15,000,000C Aura.

And 15 million C aura cannot possibly destroy the Soul Society given it's parametres so that one is also extremely dubious. Don't really care about South as that one I am fine with

North - Ranged East.

Saying that North is a ranged East yet North clearly also has statements that are not indicative of EE aswell as skeletons not being EEd literally supports my point.

There is no retcon here though lol. It’s the same statement with a bit of artistic liberties to make a cool fight. He makes the same crevice in the manga.

The "artistic liberties" does not escape the statement from being contradictory and hyperbolic in the first place lmao.

Also the manga is still used. Both are canon. Or should we delete every single thing from the profiles not explicitly used in the anime such as the mechanics of Aizen’s immortality and what The Almighty does? Or maybe even the mechanics of Yhwach’s soul division?

Why are you bringing up a slippery slope? All I said was the TYBW anime takes credence, not that the TYBW manga is deleted from existence. It's the same concept normally that if an anime contradicts the manga, the anime interpretation gets dismissed except in this case, it's the reverse; the manga contradicts the anime so the manga gets dismissed. It's not that hard to grasp

I made no remarks about Haien. My point was you wrote it as a narrative impossibility that Shinigami cannot EE which is clearly proven false thanks to Ichibe. Them not going around exterminating hollows like Quincy is only because of their ideological differences.

You have to make the remark about Haien for your argument to make sense. And the EE which is established in Bleach is directly stated to also erase them from the Soul Cycle both in the manga and by Kubo himself, therefore if the attack doesn't erase them from the cycle, it doesn't erase them from existence. Following that; the EE from Ichibei which is clearly hyped up to be EE is not the same as a normal Hado at all.

Using Mayuri's statement about quinces wouldn't make sense to discredit soul reapers having EE in my own opinion. Quincy's EE removes souls from the soul cycle it isn't normal EE. That's why theirs is so potent

Except Mayuri's statement is clearly talking about people who can erase hollows (which would be Quincies) and him saying that only them can do it means that techniques that aren't theirs wouldn't do it, including Haien which Mayuri knows about. The only exception here is Ichibei's ritual because his EE and Quincy's EE in properties are the same because they both erase from the cycle (which again, is what is established as EE in the first place by Kubo himself)

It's east that has ee. Why are you bringing south.

Confused the names, but the point still stands.

Being as hot as sun doesn’t guarantee planet destruction. Here Soul society can be planet, dimension or even universe but one thing sure it's above gremmy's outerspace creation feat.

And that's my point entirely, an outer space creation feat in energy cannot possibly be less potent than 15 million degrees from the Sun's core (which by the record, is just High 6-A levels of energy via nuclear fusion from said core) unless said 15 million degrees is wrong

Another thing to be noted that's not what was stated. He said if he stays in bankai too long, SS would be destroyed. And the heat was emitting from his reatsu, there's a thing about reatsu control.

Doesn't rlly attack my point

And we have seen thermal eruption actually destroying dimension by inferior weapon.

Which thermal eruption has destroyed a dimension

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'd like to switch to Neutral regarding Yamamoto's EE due to the counterarguments from the supporters (not that my vote counts)

fully agree with removing Haien as EE, it's the textbook example of a hyperbole

 

[Apotheosis69]

I'd like to switch to Neutral regarding Yamamoto's EE due to the counterarguments (not that my vote counts)

What was your stance prior? Just curious

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What was your stance prior? Just curious

agreed with Yamamoto getting the boot up his ass

Had agreed with him not getting EE anymore

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Thinking about it, the only counter-arg I can think of is that there is the possibility of Mayuri not knowing about Futen Taisatsuryo so he wouldn't think of using Ichibei to erase him from existence

That's possible, but I think it's something to think about.

At the very least, "possibly mid-godly regen" should be fine, like you said in the op, but it seems like you agree with Aizen keeping it anyways.

Besides that, I agree with the rest of the thread.

 

[Hellscream]

So why would the anime take precedence over the source material, which is the manga in this case?
The anime should only be taken as primary canon, in case extra things are added, that did not happen in the manga, or elaborate on certain things, which is most certainly not the case here.

it's quite clear what the intention of zanka no tachi is, with what it's both stated and is shown to do.
It's stated to
Just looks like needless nitpicking for the sake of an argument.

like you said, it's stated to blow everything it touches away without a trace, and is shown exactly to do just that in the manga.

Directly drawn by author > Supervised by author.
Simple as that, i don't really care about the other stuff, maybe i'll read through it when i feel like it

 

[Saqphire]

So why would the anime take precedence over the source material, which is the manga in this case?

Read this and this. The rest of your post are just repeats of what's already adressed, but I'll respond to this part aswell:

Directly drawn by author > Supervised by author.

The crux of my argument is that the author directly goes against what is considered to be EE on here via saying that EE = erased from Soul Cycle. Nothing even implies Yamamoto, Soi Fon or a random Hado can do so

Btw your proposal would nuke Senju scaling which in turn nukes Gremmy scaling into an outlier again. You don't want that.

 

[Saqphire]

Lets not forget, there is Sui-Feng's Suzumebachi which is Soul Erasure, for Aizen's Mid-Godly.

Yeah... I don't agree with that either and as such I have updated the OP. Everyone here should vote on that too

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm going to be busy all today, so I won't be able to review this until tomorrow.

Hopefully this thread doesn't spiral out of control until then

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yeah... I don't agree with that either and as such I have updated the OP. Everyone here should vote on that too

I meant that as evidence for Mayuri's statement that nothing in Soul Society can kill Aizen. Just in case

 

[Saqphire]

I meant that as evidence for Mayuri's statement that nothing in Soul Society can kill Aizen. Just in case

Oh, yeah I understand that for sure

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Shinigami's Existence Erasure
This one stems from characters who can use Hado 54: Haien which is stated to eradicate the very existence of it's target in one of the databooks, with it's raws even being confirmed to say so by SeijiSetto. This is a very clear-cut statement and me personally I don't have too much issue with it although people pretty much claimed in the other thread that it was hyperbole for reasons I still don't know why. There is another databook entry saying that, according to SeijiSetto, that it reduces the target completely to ash with nothing left, which lends further credence to Haien not really, being EE

The only issues I can think of with the statement is that in the manga, Tosen's usage of it is the only usage of it in the series. Meaning his example is the only thing we have to go on for determining how the ability works and the panels don't really concretely showcase that it's truly an existence erasure, but not only that, Mayuri directly says that only Quincies can erase hollows from existence and Tosen is not a Quincy, so his example being used on Grimmjow, a Hollow, is a faulty comparison to prove that it can EE stuff.

The other argument that I myself said in the other thread would be the fact that Quincy and Shinigami narrative dynamic is about the former erasing Hollows from existence, which is established to mean removing them from the soul cycle (again, elaborated on by Kubo) which is why the latter wants to eradicate the former to prevent the collapse of the Universe.

Because of this, it would be narratively inconsistent for randoms in Soul Society to also have existence erasure, especially if said existence erasure doesn't actually erase them from the cycle unlike Ichibei's Futen Taisatsuryo which is stated to reduce everything about a person into nothingness, preventing reincarnation aswell. Futen Taisatsuryo is accepted to be Existence Erasure because of this and I have no problem with that either, as it's properties are exactly the same as the Quincy EE, just not hollow-exclusive and is 100% consistent with what Kubo considers to be EE in the first place

Can you show where Grimjow hand was turned to ash?
Also it's not like every Shikigami can spam Hado 54 whenever they like. Only certain skilled individual can perform that not all.

Sui-Feng's Existence Erasure
The argument for Soi Fon's EE is similar to Yamamoto's Existence Erasure where it's stated in CFYOW that her Shikai erases people and they disappear without a trace. This application suffers from the same narrative problem that Yamamoto (and all Shinigamis have, except Ichibei) via the fact that her EE has no showings of erasing someone from the Soul Cycle as Kubo intended EE to be. Plus the wording is, like for Zanka no Tachi: East, not necessarily indicative of Existence Erasure either, as someone "disappearing without a trace" is super vague. I personally conclude that it shouldn't be there tbh

Her ability did erased one of the underlings who worked for Barragan without a trace (in anime which we consider as a secondary canon iirc) so that should work along with LN statement