[Bleach] Revising Quincy EE (Can be Closed)

[Saqphire]

Hello, this CRT aims to adress the topic of Quincy having Existence Erasure. Don't get me wrong, they do have that but I don't think the current justification for them is valid, and I will explain why

Azashiro's Statements​

The Quincy Physiology page says that because Azashiro had Ishida as a backup plan to balance out the amount of souls after his purge, Quincies cannot possibly only erase hollows. The problem with this interpretation is that it's contradictory to what the author had intended, as Kubo came forth and said in Klub Outside that because Quincy arrows are only designed for Hollows, they do not erase any other entity from existence as a result. The statement from Kubo is directly backed up in the manga where it's said several times over that Quincies erase souls that are hollows (ironically the last scan was used in Aizens regen page to justify why they dont just erase hollows lmao)

While people might say "oh Kubo was only talking about the arrows", not only is the question brought up because Yamamoto was not erased from existence (due to still existing in Hell) because Yhwach used an arrow to kill Yamamoto, Quincies use Heilig Pfeils as their main weapon anyway so Kubo would be talking about their main arsenal regardless, and finally, Rukia talks about Quincy Power overall being what erases hollows, with nothing implying they would erase anything else. All these statements, in conjunction with Kubo's WoG assertion, would give us a very clear picture of what his intent was with the Quincies' power

Implications​

This would mean that Quincy Existence Erasure becomes Limited for obvious reasons, and this also affects Aizen's main Mid-Godly Regeneration argument with his Hogyoku key as the crux of the argument is saying that "SAFWY said mind and soul are linked, quincy power is soul (thus mind) EE for every entity, Mugetsu uses quincy power and Aizen got completely eradicated". However, Aizen should still keep his Mid-Godly Regeneration as the arguments from SAFWY and the Mayuri arguments are valid to me imo, or if at worst put him as a Likely or Possibly since the directly shown feat wouldn't be valid to use anymore

Votes​

Agree (Limited EE): Robo432343, Ghostimuscrime, Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye, DragonZeroNova, Damage3245,
Agree (Conditional Soul Erasure): Apotheosis69, Vietthai96, DragonZeroNova, Mommyleona, R81handman, Damage3245, Deceived3596
Agree (Unsure on which): DavidTPPM, Maniaunavailable
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Apotheosis69]

It pretty much would be Limited Conditional Soul Erasure, unironically

As it only works on Hollows or beings similar to them (with Kubo himself proving that moreso about Yamamoto), and only when they die.

 

[Saqphire]

It pretty much would be Limited Conditional Soul Erasure, unironically

As it only works on Hollows or beings similar to them (with Kubo himself proving that moreso about Yamamoto), and only when they die.

Basically yes

 

[Apotheosis69]

Problem is, How can that be equated to beings/entities outside of Bleach?

 

[Saqphire]

Problem is, How can that be equated to beings/entities outside of Bleach?

If I remember correctly, they say they use the EE to erase evil entities, so maybe souls that are evil like Sukuna would get erased (not that Sukuna would stand any chance against even Kon lmao but it's just to exemplify)

 

[DavidTPPM]

There's also the possibility it just can't really be equalized. That's just what sometimes happens with abilities that are made specifically against something that only exists in-universe.

 

[Apotheosis69]

There's also the possibility it just can't really be equalized. That's just what sometimes happens with abilities that are made specifically against something that only exists in-universe.

That can be true. Just unfortunate as then it can not be utilized in Versus Matches.

 

[Saqphire]

There's also the possibility it just can't really be equalized. That's just what sometimes happens with abilities that are made specifically against something that only exists in-universe.

Unfortunately that makes the most sense because Kubo saying that the arrows are designed to erase Hollows would mean that the contrary naturally extends to non-hollows even outside of Bleach so

 

[Robo432343]

I will downgrade Aizen's regen once this gets accepted
agree with limited
should there be a note explaining that it can't be used crossverse?

 

[Saqphire]

should there be a not explaining that it can't be used crossverse?

If Apotheosis' interpretation gets accepted then yes

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Erasure hax
Fragments victim visibly

nuff said, get ts out

 

[Saqphire]

Erasure hax
Fragments victim visibly

nuff said, get ts out

Tbf something/someone being fragmented, especially mid-attack can just be showing the process of something being erased so

 

[Vietthai96]

Erasure hax
Fragments victim visibly

Nah, different abilities have different processing sequence depend on how fictions portraying them, so fragments the victim isn't really an anti-feat as if the end result is still the victim get erased

That said, yeah, put this as Limited Conditional Soul Destruction/Erasure like what Apotheosis said

Also since idk the verse, can someone explain what is Hollow? It could probably be equalized when vs some certain scenarios, but i need to know what Hollow is

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I will downgrade Aizen's regen once this gets accepted
agree with limited
should there be a not explaining that it can't be used crossverse?

this gave me genjutsu crossverse drama flashbacks

Tbf something/someone being fragmented, especially mid-attack can just be showing the process of something being erased so

Twas joking, I’m fine with the proposals and I’m also fine with the Limited EE reclassification for evil souls, although someone might goon about hollow having different physiology is what lets the EE work forbidding outright crossverse use, I think it’s fair to extend it to demonic beasts at the very least

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Nah, different abilities have different processing sequence depend on how fictions portraying them, so fragments the victim isn't really an anti-feat as if the end result is still the victim get erased

That said, yeah, put this as Limited Conditional Soul Destruction/Erasure like what Apotheosis said

Also since idk the verse, can someone explain what is Hollow? It could probably be equalized when vs some certain scenarios, but i need to know what Hollow is

Hollows are basically corrupted human souls, though I'm not confident they need to be human (Dog Arrancar?) so maybe just corrupted souls.
They can also reproduce so actually idk unique souls that are in a corrupted state or something.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Oh yeah I also agree with @Apotheosis69's suggestion

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Erasure hax
Fragments victim visibly

nuff said, get ts out

that's has nothing to do but still agree with ghost this needs to go

 

[Vietthai96]

Hollows are basically corrupted human souls, though I'm not confident they need to be human (Dog Arrancar?) so maybe just corrupted souls.
They can also reproduce so actually idk unique souls that are in a corrupted state or something.

Is there any requirement for soul to be considered as corrupted and of course to be Hollow? Like guy being evil and then died, his soul is now Hollow?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Is there any requirement for soul to be considered as corrupted and of course to be Hollow? Like guy being evil and then died, his soul is now Hollow?

Afaik no to the evil thing. When a shinigami purifies a hollow, all their evil/sins done while being a hollow of some sorts is cleansed and essentially forgiven. If they were a real POS before they died, they would end up in Hell instead of the Soul Society. That's the only relevance.

You could be the kindest person in the world and still turn into a hollow if you stay in the world of the living for too long, which causes your chain of fate to erode and leads to corruption. Alternatively, if you have too much regret/despair, same thing happens. Those are essentially the conditions, though since Hollows can reproduce (???) I guess that's the other way. (There are no examples of this in the manga/novels/anime anywhere so IDK if there's some difference)

The only way to avoid that is to be sent on by a Shinigami beforehand (or get eaten by a hollow/destroyed by something else I guess)

 

[Saqphire]

Is there any requirement for soul to be considered as corrupted and of course to be Hollow? Like guy being evil and then died, his soul is now Hollow?

The soul has to stay in the living world for too long and/or go mad for not being capable of tying up loose ends they had when they were alive

Honestly, the wiki page pretty much explains it better than most

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, lol, idk how to equalize this bruhh, this is verse exclusive mechanic, so unless there is another verse with similar system, it can't be equalized

 

[DragoZeroNova]

The soul has to stay in the living world for too long and/or go mad for not being capable of tying up loose ends they had when they were alive

Honestly, the wiki page pretty much explains it better than most

Bit of a long read but yeah, you could read the wiki for it if you want.

 

[Saqphire]

Yeah, lol, idk how to equalize this bruhh, this is verse exclusive mechanic, so unless there is another verse with similar system, it can't be equalized

I did say this so

Unfortunately that makes the most sense because Kubo saying that the arrows are designed to erase Hollows would mean that the contrary naturally extends to non-hollows even outside of Bleach so

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Yeah, lol, idk how to equalize this bruhh, this is verse exclusive mechanic, so unless there is another verse with similar system, it can't be equalized

My best guess is maybe souls that eat and corrupt souls (like hollows do), but tbh I think it'd be easier to say it's verse exclusive and just leave it at that.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Is there any requirement for soul to be considered as corrupted and of course to be Hollow? Like guy being evil and then died, his soul is now Hollow?

Also wanted to note that to be a hollow is to undergo a process that takes months where said soul looses it's center and becomes a mass of raging instinct, usually becoming one because something binds a hollow to the human world (sometimes locations, people etc)

So I'd say the process of undergoing hollowfication is the biggest hurdle to having this used in crossverse

---

Edit : I still think they should be indexed even if it's for hollows like

Limited Existence Erasure (Quincy can EE hollows from the system itself resulting in the worldly imbalance yada yada [insert hollow physiology page explaining what a hollow is])

 

[Saqphire]

Edit : I still think they should be indexed even if it's for hollows like

Limited Existence Erasure (Quincy can EE hollows from the system itself resulting in the worldly imbalance yada yada [insert hollow physiology page explaining what a hollow is])

It would still be indexed, just re-named and with a note slapped on it saying ts cannot be used outside the verse

 

[Mommyleona]

im surprised this wasnt already the case, but yeah limited conditional EE is what this is
and yeah this is next to impossible to equalize, since hollows arent just "evil spirits", they are more like corrupted souls or smth, but even then there are naturally born hollows so.. its more like a weakness of their physiology

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

EE for the Quincy has always been treated as limited(unless someone changed it?). It was agreed to work only on demonic/evil entities since it’s obviously the equivalent.

The concept of a corrupted human soul is not exclusive to Bleach which is what hollows are. Needing something to be EXACTLY like one other random series for it to work sets a bad precedence and would leave many verses to similar threads deciding their power no longer works.

As for Aizen, there has been about 15 threads regarding his regen. His regen scales to the capability of Soul Society. As stated by Mayuri they cannot kill him or stop his flow of reishi with anything within Soul Society.

 

[Saqphire]

EE for the Quincy has always been treated as limited(unless someone changed it?). It was agreed to work only on demonic/evil entities since it’s obviously the equivalent.

As I've said at the beginning, the quincy page says it isn't limited which I aim to change. Knowing this, I assume you agree with Limited EE and not Conditional Soul Erasure?

The concept of a corrupted human soul is not exclusive to Bleach which is what hollows are. Needing something to be EXACTLY like one other random series for it to work sets a bad precedence and would leave many verses to similar threads deciding their power no longer works.

Imo those verses need to get their crossverse implications axed if they are similar to Quincy EE in limitation, I don't see the use for whataboutism here. Furthermore, given that the CRT's crux of the argument is that Kubo says that the arrows were designed for Hollow EE and nothing else, it makes zero sense to assume it works for things other than Hollows, even outside the verse

As for Aizen, there has been about 15 threads regarding his regen. His regen scales to the capability of Soul Society. As stated by Mayuri they cannot kill him or stop his flow of reishi with anything within Soul Society.

However, Aizen should still keep his Mid-Godly Regeneration as the arguments from SAFWY and the Mayuri arguments are valid to me imo

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

As I've said at the beginning, the quincy page says it isn't limited which I aim to change. Knowing this, I assume you agree with Limited EE and not Conditional Soul Erasure?

Sure.

Imo those verses need to get their crossverse implications axed if they are similar to Quincy EE in limitation, I don't see the use for whataboutism here. Furthermore, given that the CRT's crux of the argument is that Kubo says that the arrows were designed for Hollow EE and nothing else, it makes zero sense to assume it works for things other than Hollows, even outside the verse

What Kubo says it works on is mostly irrelevant here in terms of cross verse fictional battles, why would he mention anything but his own series?

As for it working on Hollows and nothing outside of the verse this makes absolutely no sense. Hollows are just corrupted souls. If whatever person they’re fighting is something like that there is no reason the erasure wouldn’t work in a cross verse setting.

This is like saying no one outside of Bleach can see Bleach characters because reishi only exists in Bleach. But obviously no one treats it this way.


I advise you look through the several verse equalization threads discussing how something like this is handled.

 

[Apotheosis69]

It would still be Conditional, because it only works via Death. That's the whole point

 

[Deceived3596]

Following. I'll drop my opinion on this later.

 

[Saqphire]

What Kubo says it works on is mostly irrelevant here in terms of cross verse fictional battles, why would he mention anything but his own series?

He doesn't need to mention anything outside of his own series, but when he himself is using a certain wording that limits an ability, that's what's should be accurately indexed and fan interpretations that directly contradict this wording has no bearing to that, simple as that.

As for it working on Hollows and nothing outside of the verse this makes absolutely no sense. Hollows are just corrupted souls. If whatever person they’re fighting is something like that there is no reason the erasure wouldn’t work in a cross verse setting.

The methodology of the corruption is fundamentally different, that's why people disagree that it can be equalised in the first place.

This is like saying no one outside of Bleach can see Bleach characters because reishi only exists in Bleach. But obviously no one treats it this way.

There have been arguments for crossverse characters being able to counter the invisibility hax as fighting isn't merely using your eyes to process information so again, this whataboutism doesn't hold here.

I advise you look through the several verse equalization threads discussing how something like this is handled.

Several people, including staff who should be knowledgeable on how VE works, disagree that this can be equalised in the first place.

 

[R81handman]

This would mean that Quincy Existence Erasure becomes Limited for obvious reasons, and this also affects Aizen's main Mid-Godly Regeneration argument with his Hogyoku key as the crux of the argument is saying that "SAFWY said mind and soul are linked, quincy power is soul (thus mind) EE for every entity, Mugetsu uses quincy power and Aizen got completely eradicated". However, Aizen should still keep his Mid-Godly Regeneration as the arguments from SAFWY and the Mayuri arguments are valid to me imo, or if at worst put him as a Likely or Possibly since the directly shown feat wouldn't be valid to use anymore

I support this but there is something I wanna add wasn't Ichigo always using his Quincy powers when old man Zangetsu was around? So the method of eradicating/erasing Hollows from existence through quincy powers even by Old Man (Zangetsu) never happened even when Ichigo powers from his Shinigami and Hollow side were suppressed by him and was the main source of the power at that, we never saw a Hollow being erased from his quincy power only sent to hell or back to the soul cycle. I agree that Hollows are only erased by Quincy Arrows. thus the Quincy Powers and Mugetsu shouldn't even have EE as Ichigo never shown the ability to erase Hollows even when his source of powers where from his Quincy side. that only the arrows of Quincy have limited EE towards Hollows not Quincy Powers having the power to erase Hollows Souls

 

[Saqphire]

I support this but there is something I wanna add wasn't Ichigo always using his Quincy powers when old man Zangetsu was around? So the method of eradicating/erasing Hollows from existence through quincy powers even by Old Man (Zangetsu) never happened even when Ichigo powers from his Shinigami and Hollow side were suppressed by him and was the main source of the power at that, we never saw a Hollow being erased from his quincy power only sent to hell or back to the soul cycle.

OMZ was around four times, once against SS Kenny, once when they used Mugetsu, once subconciously in his first fight against Yhwach and then subsequently after that after True Shikai. None of those times erased anyone from existence or the soul cycle so yes you are correct

I agree that Hollows are only erased by Quincy Arrows. thus the Quincy Powers and Mugetsu shouldn't even have EE as Ichigo never shown the ability to erase Hollows even when his source of powers where from his Quincy side. that only the arrows of Quincy have limited EE towards Hollows not Quincy Powers having the power to erase Hollows Souls

So do you agree with the first interp (limited EE) or the second (conditional soul erasure)? The first option means Quincies get nerfed to only erase evil/corrupted souls or wtv the equvalient is to hollows and the second entails that the hax is unusable crossverse bcz hollows are fundamentally different to anything else in crossverse

 

[R81handman]

So do you agree with the first interp (limited EE) or the second (conditional soul erasure)? The first option means Quincies get nerfed to only erase evil/corrupted souls or wtv the equvalient is to hollows and the second entails that the hax is unusable crossverse bcz hollows are fundamentally different to anything else in crossverse

Conditional EE makes more sense to me.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Honestly, I'm fine with either conditional or limited.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Limited, because it can only be done to Hollows, or any soul-like entity that is Corrupted.
Conditional, becuase its only done via Death

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Limited, because it can only be done to Hollows, or any soul-like entity that is Corrupted.

The thing with hollows is that they are not really corrupted beings, they didn't go throught any changes, they are just a evil? spiritual species that has always existed like the others species, its just that for some reason ( a byprobuct of Adnyeus separating existence ) the soul of the dead people started to turn into hollow once they stay too much time in the living world.

 

[Damage3245]

Both Conditional and Limited seem best.