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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

Telomera said:
That's not her Zero, it's a "normal" skill that she uses all the time. She's not literally destroying infinite possibilities that physically exist, she's just avoiding those possibilities/preventing them from being actualized (basically fate manipulation) which is pretty obvious when you consider the fact that she doesn't have infinite AP in base.
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??

When did I argue that she has infinite AP? Both Musashi and Kojiro's abilities are fate manipulation, they just manifest in different ways (Kojiro manifesting infinite possibilites while Musashi prevents all but one from existing). I don't know why you're acting like that makes them not deal with infinity.
 
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
??

When did I argue that she has infinite AP? Both Musashi and Kojiro's abilities are fate manipulation, they just manifest in different ways (Kojiro manifesting infinite possibilites while Musashi prevents all but one from existing). I don't know why you're acting like that makes them not dealing with infinity.
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Well, the argument with Wankbreaker was about whether or not actual infinites physically exist in Nasuverse so I did think your argument had to do with that.

Also, I'm still wondering about what I asked earlier: was wankbreaker's scan about infinity being a concept made up by the human mind fake too? If it were real that would be quite relevant.
 
Telomera said:
Well, the argument with Wankbreaker was about whether or not actual infinites physically exist in Nasuverse so I did think your argument had to do with that.

Also, I'm still wondering about what I asked earlier: was wankbreaker's scan about infinity being a concept made up by the human mind fake too? If it were real that would be quite relevant.
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pretty sure it was mistranslated AND fake, but don't quote me on that

Also, we were asked to stop, so lets stop now lol
 
Telomera said:
Well, the argument with Wankbreaker was about whether or not actual infinites physically exist in Nasuverse so I did think your argument had to do with that.
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I mean, I think the statements I provided to show that infinity as a concept exists in the franchise.
Telomera said:
Also, I'm still wondering about what I asked earlier: was wankbreaker's scan about infinity being a concept made up by the human mind fake too? If it were real that would be quite relevant.
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Marshadow didn't even post where the quote came from, but I did find it. It does exist (it's from Fate/hollow ataraxia), but it's also very weird, because it immediately contradicts itself by describing the enemies Rin and Archer are fighting as "truly "infinite."" The game uses infinity to describe them and other things as well later on.

You'd also have to weigh it against the many, many statements about infinity from before and after it to really say if it holds any value.
 
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
I mean, I think the statements I provided to show that infinity as a concept exists in the franchise.
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No one disagrees with that.
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
Marshadow didn't even post where the quote came from, but I did find it. It does exist (it's from Fate/hollow ataraxia), but it's also very weird, because it immediately contradicts itself by describing the enemies Rin and Archer are fighting as "truly "infinite."" The game uses infinity to describe them and other things as well later on.
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They're described as a "limitless propagating chain" and a "circuit of death with no breaker to annihilate itself." That is textbook "potential infinity." There isn't an infinite amount of number of those enemies existing all at once that are somehow not turning into a black hole, those enemies are just "limitless[ly] propagating". At any point in time, the number of them is finite. Yet they are still "infinite" in that over time, the number of them is constantly increasing with no end.
ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
You'd also have to weigh it against the many, many statements about infinity from before and after it to really say if it holds any value.
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Many of those statements can be reframed in the context of potential infinity and potentiality in general (Ex: the possibilities that Musashi avoids are pure potentiality, they aren't actualized), especially the seeming contradiction between the world needing to be pruned to avoid an overabundance of worlds and the statements of there being infinite worlds.
 
Telomera said:
No one disagrees with that.
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Then what are we arguing about?
Telomera said:
They're described as a "limitless propagating chain" and a "circuit of death with no breaker to annihilate itself." That is textbook "potential infinity." There isn't an infinite amount of number of those enemies existing all at once that are somehow not turning into a black hole, those enemies are just "limitless[ly] propagating". At any point in time, the number of them is finite. Yet they are still "infinite" in that over time, the number of them is constantly increasing with no end.
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I know that.
Telomera said:
Many of those statements can be reframed in the context of potential infinity and potentiality in general (Ex: the possibilities that Musashi avoids are pure potentiality, they aren't actualized), especially the seeming contradiction between the world needing to be pruned to avoid an overabundance of worlds and the statements of there being infinite worlds.
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Good luck with that.

Edit: I also want to point out that the statement is specifically about infinity being a metaphor to humans, so even if the statement was outdated and/or contradicted a lot, you'd still have to prove how it would affect the many statements about infinity from non-humans or were done by non-humans.
 
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Maniaunavailable said:
I think arc is solid 8D ngl
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I know.

The blog din't tho, and I assume is because... Yeah, Arcueid don't need that scaling to win anyway.🤷‍♂️

They put her at like
Low ends: Solar System Level via that statement
Mid ends: Universal+
High ends: Multiversal+ or 2-A

Her speed is like FTL, MFTL+ and Infinite..
 
Maniaunavailable said:
core is 8D
Click to expand...
1. The kanji translated as "dimensions" is unclear. Spatial dimensions? Worlds/realms (yes, it can mean that in Japanese just like with English sci-fi)? Perspective? Point of reference? Levels? There isn't any context behind it
2. Something being 8D (in terms of spatial dimensions) by itself doesn't automatically grant any sort of tiering with VSBW standards. There's no proof that this wall is uncountably more durable than 7D walls which in turn are uncountably more durable than 6D walls and so on and so forth.
 
Telomera said:
1. The kanji translated as "dimensions" is unclear. Spatial dimensions? Worlds/realms (yes, it can mean that in Japanese just like with English sci-fi)? Perspective? Point of reference? Levels? There isn't any context behind it
2. Something being 8D (in terms of spatial dimensions) by itself doesn't automatically grant any sort of tiering with VSBW standards. There's no proof that this wall is uncountably more durable than 7D walls which in turn are uncountably more durable than 6D walls and so on and so forth.
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what, bro is literally stated beihg 8D twice

Edit: The INS moon cell might be low outer tho
 
Telomera said:
1. The kanji translated as "dimensions" is unclear. Spatial dimensions? Worlds/realms (yes, it can mean that in Japanese just like with English sci-fi)? Perspective? Point of reference? Levels? There isn't any context behind it
2. Something being 8D (in terms of spatial dimensions) by itself doesn't automatically grant any sort of tiering with VSBW standards. There's no proof that this wall is uncountably more durable than 7D walls which in turn are uncountably more durable than 6D walls and so on and so forth.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the same thing you said here was already said like... 3 years ago.

In fact, there's almost 3 years of CRTs talking about the dimensionality in Nasuverse, and in all of them it was accepted that the verse is, in fact, 8D, and there's literally a rule asking to not make so much CRTs trying to debunk Nasuverse 'cause every possible thing was already adressed.

And about WB's, there's no need to try to debunk his arguments at all since he didn't make any; he just used false, wrong translations, no scans, falacies, and things completely out of context.
 
HigashikataJobin said:
I'm pretty sure the same thing you said here was already said like... 3 years ago.

In fact, there's almost 3 years of CRTs talking about the dimensionality in Nasuverse, and in all of them it was accepted that the verse is, in fact, 8D, and there's literally a rule asking to not make so much CRTs trying to debunk Nasuverse 'cause every possible thing was already adressed.

And about WB's, there's no need to try to debunk his arguments at all since he didn't make any; he just used false, wrong translations, no scans, falacies, and things completely out of context.
Click to expand...
like there is literally no reason the stated 8D moon cell isnt 8D LMAO
 
So, this will be my last message on this topic. If you want to try to debunk Nasuverse's dimensionality, you'll need to first check every CRT made in the past 3-4 years, because I'm certain that your arguments were already adressed in one of those. You'll need completely new arguments. But also, you'll need to wait until the supporters remake the verse from the ground, because there will be a lot of new stuff, justifications, and scans that literally no other website on the internet have posted yet.
 
Yes, we indeed need, because this is some of the most boring thing to ever happen with this verse. I imagine that all the staff are tired of this same thing over and over again in a Sisyphus-like cycle.

You want to debunk Nasuverse? No problem. But first, check if your arguments weren't already put on the table in a 20-page long CRT from 2022. Otherwise, don't even try it. The users and staff members will roll their eyes and you'll just waste your time.
 
HigashikataJobin said:
You want to debunk Nasuverse? No problem. But first, check if your arguments weren't already put on the table in a 20-page long CRT from 2022. Otherwise, don't even try it. The users and staff members will roll their eyes and you'll just waste your time.
Click to expand...
Deagonx actually made a really good debunk thread against the tier 1 scaling that convinced a couple of the staff. His points didn't get debunked or anything like that, the only reason that it didn't get passed was because the discussion died out (even Ultima said that the argument was essentially between two points of view that seemed equally reasonable). I would definitely be willing to carry on his torch so to speak as well as advance some arguments he didn't get to to tip the scales even further.
 
Speaking of which, if I were to make a downgrade thread right now, would it have any decent chance of being engaged with by the staff or would they just tell me to wait until the overhaul takes place?
 
deagonx got debunked pretty badly in that same thread

'really good debunk'

tenor.gif
 
Telomera said:
Speaking of which, if I were to make a downgrade thread right now, would it have any decent chance of being engaged with by the staff or would they just tell me to wait until the overhaul takes place?
Click to expand...
depends on the topic, you first need to see every CRT that wasn't accpted on the last 4 years. Then you can start the Crts.

Do not do a CRT for the following topics, ultima already revised the following:
Avalon
The Moon Cell
Higher Dimensions
Souls
Heroic Spirits (which includes the throne of heroes)
( )
The root (Idk wtf happend to that convo but you can't do it cuz of the revision probably)

Outside of that you are free to do CRTS outside of tier 1 (hax for example)

LAST EDIT BUT VERY IMPORTANT

as noted by shadow what you are doing is a violation of the discussion rules which is something to take note of, especially with Sections One to Three using recycled arguments (Now, you haven't done it, but you will probably use the same old arguments as always). Wankbreaker was an extordinary case, but now that the verse was revrted this rule should apply, unless am missing anything here. This will be my last message to you and probably any discussion about debunks for tier 1. Have a nice day

Nasuverse Rules​

  • Do not attempt to downgrade the tier 1 ratings of Nasuverse characters. Its cosmology, consistency, and ratings have been debated heavily over the years, and attempts at downgrades have frequently been rejected before (Examples include: this, this and this. Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen here and here). Debates over this have grown tiring, and proven to be a waste of time for all parties involved.
 
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Robo432343 said:
deagonx got debunked pretty badly in that same thread
Click to expand...
No he didn't. Half of his arguments were honestly kinda bad and I wouldn't use them, but no one actually debunked him pointing out the fact that souls, despite being higher dimensional, are consistently portrayed as finite energy sources (Ultima for example agreed that souls are pretty clearly finite despite the bad counterarguments from the opposition) or that Rin's analogy is neither a description of uncountably infinite power difference nor is it even necessarily applicable to every instance of something higher dimensional.
 
Telomera said:
No he didn't. Half of his arguments were honestly kinda bad and I wouldn't use them, but no one actually debunked him pointing out the fact that souls, despite being higher dimensional, are consistently portrayed as finite energy sources (Ultima for example agreed that souls are pretty clearly finite despite the bad counterarguments from the opposition) or that Rin's analogy is neither a description of uncountably infinite power difference nor is it even necessarily applicable to every instance of something higher dimensional.
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Bruh, everybody debunked Deagonx's claims. I know I did. The only reason it never got concluded was his misuse of power. But yeah, I'd love to see you carry on his torch. Let's see how far you'll go. Just dont make a thread till the entire verse is updated. Can'thave you ruining everyone's plan to make the verse sensible first before spamming downgrades like Wankfraud did.
 
Telomera said:
Deagonx actually made a really good debunk thread against the tier 1 scaling that convinced a couple of the staff. His points didn't get debunked or anything like that, the only reason that it didn't get passed was because the discussion died out (even Ultima said that the argument was essentially between two points of view that seemed equally reasonable). I would definitely be willing to carry on his torch so to speak as well as advance some arguments he didn't get to to tip the scales even further.
Click to expand...
Bro linked the thread where Deagonx gets refuted like, twice or more... 🥀
 
Telomera said:
Speaking of which, if I were to make a downgrade thread right now, would it have any decent chance of being engaged with by the staff or would they just tell me to wait until the overhaul takes place?
Click to expand...
The staff would probably ask you to close the thread, and rightfully so. There's no point in trying to revise a verse that's already under a massive revision that will change everything. Wankbreaker's is the now the best example to NOT let new downgrades happen in the moment.

And also, if you are going to "carry Deagonx legacy", for sure the staff will not engage with your threads since it will be a discussion rule violation.
 
Telomera said:
By the way, was WB's scan about "infinity" in nasuverse just being a construct of the human mind to describe finite numbers way too big to comprehend actually real, or was that disproven as well?
Click to expand...
It was real, but taken completely out of context (he didn't even put the scan, he just quoted it—and did it wrong even).

But he used this to "prove" that infinity cannot exist physically in Nasuverse, which would cut out 2-A ratings and even tier 1 ratings.

Sasaki was just a small example. There are big elefants in the room—like a Servant whose main power is to break the Second Law of Thermodinamics by generating infinity energy, and more.

Just an example of how much f*cked up Wankbreaker's revisions were and shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone, so there's no "appeal to the fact that he wasn't reliable". He was completely wrong and nothing he ever said can be looked up and considered. It's this simple. And I say more: neither I, or anyone here on this thread, needs to try to refute—or even can refute his arguments, since the point his was trying to make was done by using vandalized, altered, or straight up nonexistent sources. No one here can disprove something about Nasuverse that was completely made up by this person. This is obvious. How can I counterargument something that isn't real? How can I try to refute something that never happened in any game, novel, or media?

Again, Wankbreaker wasn't right about anything. The only thing he proved is how easy it is to enter the translation team and adquire personal contact with the staff, even when you don't have any basic knowledge in other language.
 
Telomera said:
He very much succeeded, it was just taken away from him later because he turned out to be a dishonest criminal. I'm neither of those things so I can in fact downgrade the verse (virtually) permanently
Click to expand...
I think we are living in different realities or something. Or your worldview is very different from mine and the rest of the people on this thread. How can you come out as a criminal, lier, doxxer, and dishonest and completely unreliable person be something close to "succed"? He didn't succeeded in anything. He destroyed his reputation and also put the reputation of VSBW's at examination by letting someone who can't even read Japanese be a member of the translation team.

Everything he proved is that he's a crying man-child with a vendetta against an anime verse that, for some reason, he started to hate, even though he was wanking this same verse before.

This case was so bad that you himself is already putting your credibility at risk for trying to say that he was right about anything.
 
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