Top 15 Strongest Characters for Every Tier

[Qurbonboev]

Profile.

1. Apologies, I am not well versed in verse, how does Joshua having certain speed rating does have anything to do with speed of Miracle itself? If Character A with immeasurable speed grants Character B passive fate manipulation, Character B would now have passive ability, but ability itself wouldn't get immeasurable speed.

Even if he did, it's not like Azathoth would fight for him

2. Azazoth just annihilates everything when summoned(excluding Nyarla obviously).

3. Miracle gives you ability to beat foe in 1 try. But to beat foe first you need understand who foe is, isn't. Which is a problem.
4. Is Black Fog actually aware that it have such Miracle? And can use against opponents(since all opponents that it faced had it too).

You don't need a mind to use magic in verse. Black Fog is just a very powerful rogue machine.

5. Mere computers cannot became rogue machine. To became rogue you would need to poccess most mental processes that human mind have. To reiterate:
The mind is that which thinks, feels, perceives, imagines, remembers, and wills. It covers the totality of mental phenomena.
Black fog does have cognition(can think, perceive, imagine and remember), can feel (at least feeling of anger), and have will. It still have those mental processes when it exists in void (where speed and distance doesn't exists) so it's non-physical in nature. And having non-physical consciousness cancel mind hax resistances that is given by having inorganic physiology 2. Why exactly it shouldn't be considered valid target for madness inducement?
6. Ultimate Gods cab wreck cognition of being that transcended time, space, matter and limitless vacua of beyond all thought and entity. Why wouldn't it be able to wreck cognition that looks like as just beefed up cognition of normal humans. Why wouldn't this being cognition gets wrecked with such knowledge?
7. Additional question: how does Miracle recognises what is foe? And does Joshua himself has feats of resistance against madness manipulation type 3 of H1-A beings himself?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

1. Apologies, I am not well versed in verse, how does Joshua having certain speed rating does have anything to do with speed of Miracle itself? If Character A with immeasurable speed grants Character B passive fate manipulation, Character B would now have passive ability, but ability itself wouldn't get immeasurable speed.

Joshua is his Miracle; it's not just an ability, it is literally himself.

2. Azazoth just annihilates everything when summoned(excluding Nyarla obviously).

The Avatar in question can't even summon Azathoth.

3. Miracle gives you ability to beat foe in 1 try. But to beat foe first you need understand who foe is, isn't. Which is a problem.

No, to beat a foe, you just need to beat them.

4. Is Black Fog actually aware that it have such Miracle? And can use against opponents(since all opponents that it faced had it too).

Everyone has it; it's just usually the 'good guys' are more determined, so they win. But only Black Fog has [Miracle] in this context, since Nyar isn't part of the verse.

5. Mere computers cannot became rogue machine. To became rogue you would need to poccess most mental processes that human mind have. To reiterate:
The mind is that which thinks, feels, perceives, imagines, remembers, and wills. It covers the totality of mental phenomena.

It's fiction; computers can do whatever the Author wants.

6. Ultimate Gods cab wreck cognition of being that transcended time, space, matter and limitless vacua of beyond all thought and entity. Why wouldn't it be able to wreck cognition that looks like as just beefed up cognition of normal humans. Why wouldn't this being cognition gets wrecked with such knowledge?

Even if it did work, [Miracle] would just undo it; this argument isn't going anywhere.

7. Additional question: how does Miracle recognises what is foe? And does Joshua himself has feats of resistance against madness manipulation type 3 of H1-A beings himself?

Joshua scales above the Ultimate Void; it doesn't matter.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Joshua is his Miracle; it's not just an ability, it is literally himself.

Can you elaborate your point?

The Avatar in question can't even summon Azathoth.

It's the avatar that summoned Azazoth in Fungi from Yuggoth

No, to beat a foe, you just need to beat them

Lmao. To beat foe you need to see/sense it in some way, find where it is and affect it. How tf you supposed to beat foe, if you don't know nothing at all about it.

It's fiction; computers can do whatever the Author wants.

Again, Fog is not just computer. It seems to have a mind, behave like it has a mind, and judjing by excepts it seems that it have non-physical consciousness(which automatically cancels all mind hax resistances given by it's inorganic physiology). Give me Author/Narrator statement that it is mindless, otherwise I would consider it as being with mind.

Even if it did work, [Miracle] would just undo it; this argument isn't going anywhere.

How exactly it would undo it? Madness won't kill it, just for most part incap it.

Joshua scales above the Ultimate Void; it doesn't matter.

Since when does outscaling them gives him resistance to madness type 3. Read page about resistance carefully. Abilities where the target affect themselves, can work even with R>F transcendence. I am asking again, does he have resistance to madness type 3 or nah?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can you elaborate your point?

If Joshua is [Miracle] then [Miracle] is as fast as Joshua.

It's the avatar that summoned Azazoth in Fungi from Yuggoth

Firstly, it's not on the profile, so it's not usable. Secondly, even if it was, it would have to be the same Avatar who performed the 5-A Feat, and third, the match would still be over before it could summon anything.

Lmao. To beat foe you need to see/sense it in some way, find where it is and affect it. How tf you supposed to beat foe, if you don't know nothing at all about it.

Okay? Joshua can sense him just fine.

Again, Fog is not just computer. It seems to have a mind, behave like it has a mind, and judjing by excepts it seems that it have non-physical consciousness(which automatically cancels all mind hax resistances given by it's inorganic physiology). Give me Author/Narrator statement that it is mindless, otherwise I would consider it as being with mind.

It's ludicrous that you're telling me what Black Fog is, and isn't, when you haven't even read the novel. Like that's irritatingly annoying.

A large-scale fusion of black particles on a molecular level... While it resembled a mist, it was actually combined into asingle body through electromagnetism.

It is a bunch of particles; you are not using madness manipulation on a bunch of particles.

You are wrong, and I'm not arguing with you about this anymore.

How exactly it would undo it? Madness won't kill it, just for most part incap it.

It can reverse things that have happened.

Since when does outscaling them gives him resistance to madness type 3. Read page about resistance carefully. Abilities where the target affect themselves, can work even with R>F transcendence. I am asking again, does he have resistance to madness type 3 or nah?

There's nothing to affect. The very incomprehensibility of the Ultimate Gods is nothingness; it doesn't exist, it's less than fictional from Joshua's perspective.

Getting Madness manipulated by them would be like a real-life person going insane from reading a book.

I really don't get how people can be so confidently wrong.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I mean, sure, but the rules regarding whether something is considered passive or not is based on whether it's literally always on
ie someone has an aura
If character A has an aura that they actively have to repress to stop it from mercing people around them, that aura is considered passive for our purposes
If character B has an aura they activate an always have on for combat, then it isn't considered passive
Whether or not the character has it on 24/7 doesn't matter; it's a matter of if they need to activate it at all or not

This isn’t true btw.it is possible to deactivate and reactivate a passive ability

 

[Qurbonboev]

If Joshua is [Miracle] then [Miracle] is as fast as Joshua.

If I am understanding correctly: Joshua is literally Miracle. And when character from this verse fights someone from another verse, he is literally fighting alongside them?

It's ludicrous that you're telling me what Black Fog is, and isn't, when you haven't even read the novel. Like that's irritatingly annoying.

I am only doing because excepts from profile page gives us a example of being with mind.

It is a bunch of particles; you are not using madness manipulation on a bunch of particles.

You are not for serious, lmao. Bunch of particles are perfectly capable of having consciousness, cognition and mind (example? ME!, And majority of philosophers agree with MY position in this question). Profile page literally starts with a bunch of particles being mad. Only thing you proved is that in verse bunch of particles can have cognition (self evident), feelings(can feel anger) and mind. Without direct world of it being mindless this except is just description of being with totally different physiology but nevertheless similar Psychology. Very prevalent phenomena in sci-fi writing

Getting Madness manipulated by them would be like a real-life person going insane from reading a book.

You are not for serious, lmao x2. People are perfectly capable of becoming insane from reading books. There exists IRL people who thinks that Cthulhu mythos are real, worship Nyarla, and search for Necronomicon, bruh. It's irrelevant point anyways. Our wiki page for resistances directly says that madness manip 3 can bypass R>F transcendence. Disagree with this? Make a CRT.
Resistance page itself.

 

[Robo432343]

Our wiki page for resistances directly says that madness manip 3 can bypass R>F transcendence. Disagree with this? Make a CRT

ummmmmm
wrong link lol

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

ummmmmm
wrong link lol

Bro linked Deltarune

 

[Qurbonboev]

ummmmmm
wrong link lol

Bro linked Deltarune

My bad. Idk how it happened. Fixed

 

[WHYNAUT]

- How much layers is the question. Also, as I've already said, their CM1 is at best questionable in this case

- I would like examples

- Barriers and abilities that mimick their effects do protect one's existence. It can block (depending on the potency) EE, Concept destruction, Info destruction and many more. All abilities that aren't blocked by it tear through it first

- Out of all possible actions that she can take she always takes the best one. There is the door choice (the dimension part), there is her instantly activating the only ability in her arsenal that can stop an attack

- The thing is, if she's in another dimension, what abilities is Shion even be showing? None. Plus pretty sure she can block the gaze

- It doesn't lead to a situation when to beat a character you need to beat the higher form, while in this, it does

- As stated, an exact number is impossible. This is because of how much more powerful they are than the character at the bottom of the layer hierarchy. Even when lowballing it's going to exceed Shion's, so there's really no point to repeatedly going over this. I don't see what's questionable? Shuro Chi simply has Type 1 CM for Obliteration. It might not be as versatile as Shion's, but it's certainly more lethal.

- Any ability without a vector, such as Obliteration, will do. Barriers can't stop something that isn't trying to get past them.

- If you're referring to Disintegration with that list, that's an ability that clearly has a vector. Either way, the Destiny characters have more layers and higher AP, so I don't see why they can't just tear through the barriers if the Slime characters can.

- That's a NLF. Your example is just picking the right door to leave a place, which isn't remotely similar to using the exact counter against an attack that is entirely unknown to her.

- So would a sniper shooting a swordsman be disqualified because the swordsman doesn't get to show of his skills? How would she block the analysis? Also you said she can't access the information in the core because it's a type 1 concept, but that doesn't stop the Vex as they've messed around with those before.

- No it's the same situation. In order to bypass the Type 9 Immortality they need to beat the true form. If you're going to say that there's other options such as immortality negation or incapacitation are also options than the same goes for Quria. Simply have the ability to stop her from leaving in the first place or the range to fight her without needing to go into Vex space. Regardless, unless you get enough support for your stance to get a rule added to the OP, it's not actually relevant to the debate.

 

[AlexSamDen]

- As stated, an exact number is impossible. This is because of how much more powerful they are than the character at the bottom of the layer hierarchy. Even when lowballing it's going to exceed Shion's, so there's really no point to repeatedly going over this.

I really don't know why we're doing this, but we kinda need to quantify the statistics to have an actual debate. You saying that it's definitely more isn't that reassuring

I don't see what's questionable? Shuro Chi simply has Type 1 CM for Obliteration. It might not be as versatile as Shion's, but it's certainly more lethal.

Afaik I was arguing against multiple characters at a time. Moreover, if she just starts with it, what stops Shion from TPing out of range?

- Any ability without a vector, such as Obliteration, will do. Barriers can't stop something that isn't trying to get past them.

Barriers in tensura protect one's existence as the skill stems from the core, don't see how not having a vector helps. If you really need an argument, in tensura it does protect from vectorless attacks, such as death streak that's just an instakill mutation ability

- If you're referring to Disintegration with that list, that's an ability that clearly has a vector.

No, there literally is a guy whose aura erases existence

Either way, the Destiny characters have more layers and higher AP, so I don't see why they can't just tear through the barriers if the Slime characters can.

Because the only her ability with a proper CM1 is obliteration? Which is deffo up to debate

- That's a NLF. Your example is just picking the right door to leave a place, which isn't remotely similar to using the exact counter against an attack that is entirely unknown to her.

Not picking a right door to leave, but instantly, without any knowledge picking a door with the best possible opponent. Plus I said, she generally picks the best option in a given situation

- So would a sniper shooting a swordsman be disqualified because the swordsman doesn't get to show of his skills?

If it's a fencing competition, yes. That's an analogy

How would she block the analysis?

Not letting her see her? You are yet to specify how her analysis works

Also you said she can't access the information in the core because it's a type 1 concept, but that doesn't stop the Vex as they've messed around with those before.

I would like examples

- No it's the same situation. In order to bypass the Type 9 Immortality they need to beat the true form. If you're going to say that there's other options such as immortality negation or incapacitation are also options than the same goes for Quria. Simply have the ability to stop her from leaving in the first place or the range to fight her without needing to go into Vex space.

You do remember that she is fully 2C there, so fighting her in any way in the tier H6B is rather troublesome

Regardless, unless you get enough support for your stance to get a rule added to the OP, it's not actually relevant to the debate.

F*ck it, we ball. If we're really going for this, I'm bringing out Shion gaining her Ultimate Skill in the process as well as evolving into a full Spiritual lifeform

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Just make a thread man, dont need to full this with shion vs Oryx's lover Quria

 

[AlexSamDen]

Just make a thread man, dont need to full this with shion vs Oryx's lover Quria

You don't seem to be particularly tired of black fog vs nyarla. It also seem that that too many statistics for destiny are unqualified, so don't know if it can be done as a proper matchup

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

You don't seem to be particularly tired of black fog vs nyarla.

Becuase it depends on interpretations: "Does madness type 3 work in a no human mind, yes or no?" + if the BFR works

Unlike Shion Vs Crota's stepmother Quria which seems that will turn in a scans vs scans debate

It also seem that that too many statistics for destiny are unqualified, so don't know if it can be done as a proper matchup

Which one? The layers are accepted, is just unquantificable high, it could be 3, it could be 61, it could be 828 trillions specially becuase Sword Logic work in the concept (not concept as hax but i metaphorically talking) of Might make right, the stronger one is in the sword logic, it will overcome the resistence of the weaker in the Sword Logic

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Battle for the 5th strongest in tier High 6-B: Shion vs Quria

Before deal with Chinamen verse, let's go with Destiny Shion: "Rimuru-Sama look so cute today, want me kill those people who look you with bad eyes back in the morning?" = QURIA: "hypothetical. If Oryx were alive, and I were organic, and we entered a romantic arrangement, would that constitute...

vsbattles.com

Anyway, i did the thread

 

[AlexSamDen]

Which one? The layers are accepted, is just unquantificable high, it could be 3, it could be 61, it could be 828 trillions specially becuase Sword Logic work in the concept (not concept as hax but i metaphorically talking) of Might make right, the stronger one is in the sword logic, it will overcome the resistence of the weaker in the Sword Logic

And that's the problem, we don't know how it does in cross-verse. There actually is the very similar system in tensura, where a person with a higher willpower can without questions affect the person with a lower one. However, there we do not go with "unquantifiable" but rather scale by actual feats

 

[sukuna171]

Because the only her ability with a proper CM1 is obliteration? Which is deffo up to debate

obliteration killed/erased the guardian who were able to resist the deathsingers

Spoiler

he song is death. To hear it is to die. To know the words is mortal. Oh, good point, Eriana, death is just a word, isn't it? A catch-all term for the failure to go on, nothing spiritual, nothing with its own quiddity. We all died once, and it did not prove insurmountable.

But what if what if what if, shhh listen, what if death were reified, described in its totality, made autonomous and universal, separate from any context or condition? What if She could invoke the ending of anything?

How, then, would She know the song, and sing it, without Herself dying?

Perhaps they know a way to make themselves part of the song, part of something vast and burning that rots and peels into ash but never ever ends. Perhaps She has engineered this for Him, and pinned His power up against the quiddity of death itself.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

And that's the problem, we don't know how it does in cross-verse. There actually is the very similar system in tensura, where a person with a higher willpower can without questions affect the person with a lower one. However, there we do not go with "unquantifiable" but rather scale by actual feats

OK, willpower as in raw stats? Nah sword logic is not raw stats (otherwise Oryx couldn’t beat Akka with it or us to kill Hive Gods), also, go to thread

 

[AlexSamDen]

OK, willpower as in raw stats? Nah sword logic is not raw stats (otherwise Oryx couldn’t beat Akka with it or us to kill Hive Gods),

Not just stats, Tensura is a willpower based verse, every hax potency and resistances are based on it

also, go to thread

I dropped it to supporters for now, I'm currently arguing in a mathematical thread, so no way I go there before sleep. You might wanna wait like 6 hours for most supporters to wake up. I'm more of an exception being up at 2 a.m.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

If I am understanding correctly: Joshua is literally Miracle. And when character from this verse fights someone from another verse, he is literally fighting alongside them?

Yes.

You are not for serious, lmao. Bunch of particles are perfectly capable of having consciousness, cognition and mind (example? ME!, And majority of philosophers agree with MY position in this question). Profile page literally starts with a bunch of particles being mad. Only thing you proved is that in verse bunch of particles can have cognition (self evident), feelings(can feel anger) and mind. Without direct world of it being mindless this except is just description of being with totally different physiology but nevertheless similar Psychology. Very prevalent phenomena in sci-fi writing

It was stated not to have a mind, when somone tried to Mind Hax it.

Though what they were saying made no sense, the two Legendary mages did not hesitate to join in suppressing the Darkness. As a Lord of the Mind, William appeared to be helpless against the darkness that had no mind and was made entirely out of nothing.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yes

Does Joshua have resistance against madness manip type 3, yes or no?

It was stated not to have a mind, when somone tried to Mind Hax it.

Thanks

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Are characters with High 1-A+ smurf hax allowed?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Does Joshua have resistance against madness manip type 3, yes or no?

He doesn't have a mind either, because of NEP.

Are characters with High 1-A+ smurf hax allowed?

Yeah

 

[Robo432343]

How high into High 1-A is WoD?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Are characters with High 1-A+ smurf hax allowed?

even tier 0 smurf hax is allowed if a verse some how has that degree of support with a tier 0

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

even tier 0 smurf hax is allowed if a verse some how has that degree of support with a tier 0

Isn't that literally auto-contradictory? I guess you are talking about stuff like "blessing" or something like that.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Isn't that literally auto-contradictory? I guess you are talking about stuff like "blessing" or something like that.

It mostly comes down to certain stuff like if a person is impossible to destroy because of a tier 0 and what not so ye

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Creator Maria (Umineko) is currently 3 layers into High 1-A.

I think she should be added. Not sure how high Marvel scales tho.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Creator Maria (Umineko) is currently 3 layers into High 1-A.

I think she should be added. Not sure how high Marvel scales tho.

Honesly, Marvel should be higher

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)

Oblivion is a character from Marvel Comics. It is nonexistence itself, residing beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and The Living Tribunal are connected to creation, and personify concepts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oblivion is H1A+

 

[Voidnether]

Isn't that literally auto-contradictory? I guess you are talking about stuff like "blessing" or something like that.

It's literally what happened with Lord of the Rings (Within Ea) and probably Star Wars (The Force) soon or even Nasuverse with Root if it eventually passed as Tier 0. Not really surprising.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It's literally what happened with Lord of the Rings (Within Ea) and probably Star Wars (The Force) soon or even Nasuverse with Root if it eventually passed as Tier 0. Not really surprising.

?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Honesly, Marvel should be higher

Oblivion (Marvel Comics)

Oblivion is a character from Marvel Comics. It is nonexistence itself, residing beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and The Living Tribunal are connected to creation, and personify concepts...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oblivion is H1A+

High 1-A+ characters are not included. There is no high 1-A+ smurf in Marvel.

 

[WHYNAUT]

.

I don't really have the time to keep making lengthy posts, so can we agree that this matter basically gets settled by layers? Even if that's boring.

Destiny's layers ARE based on feats. At every level there's showcases of layers, because it's a continuous hierarchy and not one divided by different stages with massive gaps between them. Somewhat comparable characters already have feats of this, be it at 9-A or at 6-A. And it's accepted that the same goes for everything between these tiers.
Even if you put an arbitrary restriction, such as 1 layers per tier, you'd end up with way more than what Shion has.

Also you keep bringing up Destiny pages being outdated or aspects of them being unquantifiable, but one of your own arguments hinges on Shion's range being better than what her profile states.

 

[AlexSamDen]

I don't really have the time to keep making lengthy posts, so can we agree that this matter basically gets settled by layers? Even if that's boring.

Destiny's layers ARE based on feats. At every level there's showcases of layers, because it's a continuous hierarchy and not one divided by different stages with massive gaps between them. Somewhat comparable characters already have feats of this, be it at 9-A or at 6-A. And it's accepted that the same goes for everything between these tiers.
Even if you put an arbitrary restriction, such as 1 layers per tier, you'd end up with way more than what Shion has.

Also you keep bringing up Destiny pages being outdated or aspects of them being unquantifiable, but one of your own arguments hinges on Shion's range being better than what her profile states.

This matter gets settled by Destiny not having a proper CM1 to break through Shion's defences. I never said that the profiles are outdated, that was another guy. I just complained about unquantifiable statistics

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

 

[WHYNAUT]

This matter gets settled by Destiny not having a proper CM1 to break through Shion's defences.

You never really gave a reason for why it shouldn't. Then there's the layers.

 

[AlexSamDen]

You never really gave a reason for why it shouldn't. Then there's the layers.

If they don't have CM1, how are they going to break through a barrier defined by type 1 concept of protection?

 

[WHYNAUT]

If they don't have CM1, how are they going to break through a barrier defined by type 1 concept of protection?

You've lost me. CM1 is right there on the page. If it's not combat-applicable then the pages lists it as such, but that isn't the case here.

 

[AlexSamDen]

You've lost me. CM1 is right there on the page. If it's not combat-applicable then the pages lists it as such, but that isn't the case here.

Only for one character of the presented. And for her, there is only 1 attack that is CM1 and that attack even has a charge time. You should honestly remember that I'm arguing against the whole of the here's H6B, I'm kinda tired of always making a remark for 1 character

 

[WHYNAUT]

-

I don't really have the time to keep making lengthy posts, so can we agree that this matter basically gets settled by layers? Even if that's boring.

Which is why it's better to try and keep things short and simple. So can we agree on this or not?