• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

General DC Comics Discussion Thread

AerrowStorm1 said:
The speed force is the concept of movement, with space and time and distance only being aspects of movement, not the overall origin of speed.
Click to expand...
They said that this "helps" the argument because movement is a change in position and since a change in position describes something spatial

"If it moves it isn't Outer" basically
 
HenshinIntervention said:
They said that this "helps" the argument because movement is a change in position and since a change in position describes something spatial

"If it moves it isn't Outer" basically
Click to expand...
Honestly if you asked me this person assumes that all "movement" is something spatio-temporal even though you could say that the speed force gives out some kind of metaphysical movement. Where it's not movement as we know it but something else. DC kind of alludes to this "movement" as well. Considering the Speed Force emanates from beyond the Source Wall, it makes sense that it can do that.
 
I'm reading back on what I missed. So there's that and this time I won't take a break on the responses so I'm not bombarded by so many messages.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Unified DC Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Ok, I see some issues with this that look like a generic copy-cat of outdated information. I swear I've seen that sort of format and half of it is contrived information.

Greater Omniverse:​

  • Mansions of Silence: This realm is not outside Creation and it was never stated as such. The location as said by Belgelmir is at the edge of the coin on each side of the afterlives to those who do not harbor Heaven nor Hell. It isn't outside the “coin” and it isn't outside Creation. All that Cal said was that it was beyond Silver City, which also is in Creation and is interconnected physically to Armaggdeon Plain which is in the eastern aspect of Heaven.
There's a difference between Heaven and the Silver City in Lucifer which was the slipside in Sandman. Nevertheless, I made a literal profile showing where it actually is, and it is not outside Creation.

The only things outside Creation we see in Lucifer are Yggdrasil and Eden Garden. Perhaps, the pocket reality that Sandalphon crafted was held by Michael’s God given powers.

Read the profile:
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Mansions of Silence (DC/Vertigo)

The Mansions of Silence is an afterlife that’s not the conventional one when either realm does not harbor certain souls or things. It’s noted as the edge of the coin, if Heaven and Hell were two sides of the same coin. A place of illusions and lies that holds countless untold souls and forgotten...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Then this is why I consulted with @Ultima_Reality about things like this because I knew we would fall into dumb stipulation. The Endless scaling is so dumb and Ultima could explain which no one would complain if he did. Nevertheless, it's somehow bound to “Creation” due to DC New History:

Time, Night, and The Endless:​

  • We know Time isn't in Creation because his whole being encompasses it all when they exist and do not. His coming within Night is the reason for Creation's existence, so they wouldn't be randomly pushed into Creation since cause-and-effect is the structural foundation of Yahweh’s existence and Time realms lack that and see all his children on all their “moments” existing in time of their inception and whatnot.
  • Night is obvious, she predates all beginnings and survives all endings. She's the eternal cosmic emptiness that had always existed with the worlds of light above her realm of true darkness.
  • The Endless in their aspects were born into Creation. The New History books mentioned nothing of their true self. I've already put their “True Form” key in their profile, which again the New History Book had mentioned about Sandman #22 which tells us that their “aspects” are mere glinting light nothing more than tiny specks of light in their true form.
Let’s recall the many times they were stated to predate Creation, in their truest self.
  • Morpheus tells Cain and Adam, he carpeted artifacts before the Dawn of Time.
  • Morpheus tells Corinthian about the laws established when all was void. Which he was present for.
  • Let’s recall that the Endless were actualized in their truest self from the essence of “Time” because Time is all of existence in which they began, end, and will exist.
  • Let’s recall Destruction saying the Light and the Big Bang were lousy and loud things that bothered him.
  • Let’s also recall that the first version of the Endless is also all the same Dream because each Dream is projected by their true self since all of them recall that they existed since the Void.
There's more, but I digress. They're not bound to time. Ultima, another expert on DC Comics, and I discussed that Time, Night, and Endless transcend Michael and Lucifer by a long shot. So if they're High 1-A then obviously Endless would be as well. You can check out the experts answer here about the History Book and the more accurate lore since the guide books don't paint the fill picture, but, nevertheless, the guidebook never even contradicted the source material.

The answer is very long, but it left no detail out. This is why I prefer Ultima to come here and see this bogus cosmology take.

The Overvoid =/= The Source?​

This is also the dumbest thing. In all the mention of the Overvoid (I’ve read all of it) outside interview, which the term “non-dual” was rarely ever coined. I, recall, the Overvoid being non-dual only in Morrison’s Green Latern run. Which he happened to also draw the Multiversity Map with the Source being outside everything, which he admits there's no difference between The Source and The Overvoid.

Then in Final Crisis: Secret Files, he explained that the Source “is not dual.” In his rough sketch of Multiversity, he said the Source is the white page outside all of Creation.

Last I recalled outside him, It was never stated The Overvoid was non-dual especially since Justice League: Incarnate which references the very same story of the Overvoid being described during Morrison's time. In Death Metal, even Ultima agreed that the Overvoid is nothing like Final Crisis, it isn't “consciousness nor ground of being” since beings existing in it and being created from its “rent” is impossible.

Not to mention the true void that is self-referential and eternal is the Darkness. We see this in New Gods, Absolute Green Lantern, Absolute Maratin Manhunter, Green Lantern: Dark. The list goes on.

Lastly, I also recall that The Greater Omniverse and The Overvoid were the same thing in Snyder's take of the Void that houses Creation. Last I also recalled they never retcon it being the realm of light before the Multiverse and came into being from the Darkness.

The Divine Presence =/= The Presence?​

As shown above this is stupid. I've read all of DeMatteis’ story, talked to him, read all his interviews. I recount he coined the Presence twice, ever. One in Spectre and the other in Phantom Stranger. All else, he uses “The Presence.” The Presence is just a title that denotes both aspects and the whole, adding the word “divine” makes no difference. Divine Presence was mentioned in a Gaudium storyline in describing the transcendence of Yahweh who was above the immance of his Creation.

What kind of logic is this? Nevertheless, DeMatteis has said it more than 10 times, “The Presence” contains the Void and dreams of the Universe, he literally stated this in Superhirl: Wings when Zauriel was conversing with a demon, that the Presence dreams of everything and everything was just his thoughts and imagination. The same thing was said in a previous comic in Spectre #10, so yeah, why the hell are we counting it like that?

I could continue on, but I've already out everything about the “true extent” of the elemental realms. The recent Aquaman comics and the statement about the Blue/Clear already reaffirms each of the elemental realms are grander in their purest form. I listed the entirety of Animal Man in the current Cosmology page, and there's no actual good rebbutal against it because we tone it to only the smallest aspect of it’s power.
 
Last edited:
I am not ridiculing him. I genuinely consider him as the most time-wasting relentlessly argumentative member of this community, and that he won't be satisfied until we have invented new tiers far above 0 to describe the absolutely weakest Marvel Comics characters, even though many of the verse's characters are already wanked to unmanageable vastly exaggerated extremes. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I am not ridiculing him. I genuinely consider him as the most time-wasting relentlessly argumentative member of this community, and that he won't be satisfied until we have invented new tiers far above 0 to describe the absolutely weakest Marvel Comics characters, even though the verse's characters are already wanked to unmanageable vastly exaggerated extremes. 🙏
Click to expand...
Calling someone's genuine effort "time-wasting" and portraying their mere existence as an inconvenience is without a doubt ridicule.
 
No, ridicule is mocking. I just genuinely consider him to be extremely tiresome to deal with, and am already sufficiently tired and overworked. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
No, ridicule is mocking. I just genuinely consider him to be extremely tiresome to deal with, and am already sufficiently tired and overworked. 🙏
Click to expand...
"the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behaviour."

You are ridiculing him by subjecting him to dismissive language such as defacto taking his points as time-wasting based on your biases.
 
Well, it is my honest viewpoint after lots of experience with him. What am I supposed to say? 🙏
 
Alright. Point taken. However, I am definitely not looking forward to how relentlessly tiresome this is going to get to be forced to deal with. 🙏
 
Does anyone know when the K.O comic will be released?
IMG-20251008-102002-943.jpg
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think about this? 🙏
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I'm not currently looking forward to have a 16-page long discussion about how Superman is H1-A+ even when he's knocked out cold by a dude who goes agaimst the concept of the scale itself. Or have a cosmology being that high with so many contradictions that we must have a whole different judge on those verses, even when that's unfair for other verses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
GeneralSol16 said:
i think he should have stayed dead

Sorry, but I'm not currently looking forward to have a 16-page long discussion about how Superman is H1-A+ even when he's knocked out cold by a dude who goes agaimst the concept of the scale itself. Or have a cosmology being that high with so many contradictions that we must have a whole different judge on those verses, even when that's unfair for other verses.
Click to expand...
It’s almost like you don’t have to engage in a 16 page argument on anything ever.
 
Yes, but that was extrapolated into that he was the supreme being who created The Overvoid, since it was Grant Morrison's author avatar... 🙏
 
Oh, i see, makes sense. Wouldn't it still be like 1-A since he's a resident of the sphere of the gods (the dreaming)?

or maybe i'm misrembering idk
 
Last edited:
I think that the character likely retroactively breaks the setting if we include him. He has not been referenced anywhere else after another writer killed him off. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Sigh. And now we unfortunately have to waste lots of time dealing with you again.

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @IdiosyncraticLawyer @ProfectusInfinity @Sandman31 @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress @Rosa

What do you think about this? 🙏
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
I am not ridiculing him. I genuinely consider him as the most time-wasting relentlessly argumentative member of this community, and that he won't be satisfied until we have invented new tiers far above 0 to describe the absolutely weakest Marvel Comics characters, even though many of the verse's characters are already wanked to unmanageable vastly exaggerated extremes. 🙏
Click to expand...
You can't go without an unnecessary ridicule. I'm arguing with the actual things in the story. Ultima can back it up and I wouldn't think you complained if he had done it.
 
The_Impress said:
Why are you doing a revision on a gen discussion thread
Click to expand...
1. The CRT was closed already discussing the topic.

2. A certain someone has a problem. If I tried a thread myself, it might spiral into some sort of unwarranted insults again. He was already reluctant to bring me back, and as seen from the post prior, I would rather not test my luck with him.

He speaks his thoughts out too much with no consideration in how he words things and covers it up as “that’s what I believe.” I haven't seen any mods being as immature as him despite such a high role.

3. I’m pointing out some errors, I wouldn't call that a revision especially if it would be ignored and/or get called out for no reason.

I know more about DC Comics than who was in charge of handling this revision in my absence, but the unwelcome appeasement from a certain someone irritates me.
 
Well, I may have been too blunt here, and I admittedly lack mental filters for my compulsive sincerity, but I genuinely have found you relentlessly unreasonable to deal with, as well as very obsessed with getting as exaggerated results as possible. If you had a more balanced approach I likely wouldn't have a problem with you, and I do not disagree with everything you say. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
I mean it's a discussion point for a general thread. They look valid or at least able to form an argument against current standards. I'm not seeing anything outright disagreeable and it's not a CRT in the first place.

I'd also recommend to not get heated in a general thread about Goofy's takes.
 
I don’t want to turn this conversation into something emotional or anything like that.
I just want to express my own thoughts, simply my own perspective.

For me, the concept of power scaling is a kind of entertainment; it’s something that helps me distance myself from the problems of the real world in a way
And I don’t think it should ever be defined or practiced in a way that leads to insulting or disrespecting anyone because of it.
After all, the discussions we have are all about fiction, they’re not real.

So... I think we shouldn’t cross certain boundaries just because of fiction,
Respect is something everyone deserves.
 
Okay. My apologies then. As I said, I am very overworked and am not looking forward to having to deal with even more relentless attempts to extremely exaggerate superhero statistics to ridiculous degrees. I have grown triggered against it after having to deal with it for the last 11 years or so. 🙏
 
The one right above where I asked you and others for input. 🙏
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I'm reading back on what I missed. So there's that and this time I won't take a break on the responses so I'm not bombarded by so many messages.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Unified DC Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Ok, I see some issues with this that look like a generic copy-cat of outdated information. I swear I've seen that sort of format and half of it is contrived information.

Greater Omniverse:​

  • Mansions of Silence: This realm is not outside Creation and it was never stated as such. The location as said by Belgelmir is at the edge of the coin on each side of the afterlives to those who do not harbor Heaven nor Hell. It isn't outside the “coin” and it isn't outside Creation. All that Cal said was that it was beyond Silver City, which also is in Creation and is interconnected physically to Armaggdeon Plain which is in the eastern aspect of Heaven.
There's a difference between Heaven and the Silver City in Lucifer which was the slipside in Sandman. Nevertheless, I made a literal profile showing where it actually is, and it is not outside Creation.

The only things outside Creation we see in Lucifer are Yggdrasil and Eden Garden. Perhaps, the pocket reality that Sandalphon crafted was held by Michael’s God given powers.

Read the profile:
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Mansions of Silence (DC/Vertigo)

The Mansions of Silence is an afterlife that’s not the conventional one when either realm does not harbor certain souls or things. It’s noted as the edge of the coin, if Heaven and Hell were two sides of the same coin. A place of illusions and lies that holds countless untold souls and forgotten...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Then this is why I consulted with @Ultima_Reality about things like this because I knew we would fall into dumb stipulation. The Endless scaling is so dumb and Ultima could explain which no one would complain if he did. Nevertheless, it's somehow bound to “Creation” due to DC New History:

Time, Night, and The Endless:​

  • We know Time isn't in Creation because his whole being encompasses it all when they exist and do not. His coming within Night is the reason for Creation's existence, so they wouldn't be randomly pushed into Creation since cause-and-effect is the structural foundation of Yahweh’s existence and Time realms lack that and see all his children on all their “moments” existing in time of their inception and whatnot.
  • Night is obvious, she predates all beginnings and survives all endings. She's the eternal cosmic emptiness that had always existed with the worlds of light above her realm of true darkness.
  • The Endless in their aspects were born into Creation. The New History books mentioned nothing of their true self. I've already put their “True Form” key in their profile, which again the New History Book had mentioned about Sandman #22 which tells us that their “aspects” are mere glinting light nothing more than tiny specks of light in their true form.
Let’s recall the many times they were stated to predate Creation, in their truest self.
  • Morpheus tells Cain and Adam, he carpeted artifacts before the Dawn of Time.
  • Morpheus tells Corinthian about the laws established when all was void. Which he was present for.
  • Let’s recall that the Endless were actualized in their truest self from the essence of “Time” because Time is all of existence in which they began, end, and will exist.
  • Let’s recall Destruction saying the Light and the Big Bang were lousy and loud things that bothered him.
  • Let’s also recall that the first version of the Endless is also all the same Dream because each Dream is projected by their true self since all of them recall that they existed since the Void.
There's more, but I digress. They're not bound to time. Ultima, another expert on DC Comics, and I discussed that Time, Night, and Endless transcend Michael and Lucifer by a long shot. So if they're High 1-A then obviously Endless would be as well. You can check out the experts answer here about the History Book and the more accurate lore since the guide books don't paint the fill picture, but, nevertheless, the guidebook never even contradicted the source material.

The answer is very long, but it left no detail out. This is why I prefer Ultima to come here and see this bogus cosmology take.

The Overvoid =/= The Source?​

This is also the dumbest thing. In all the mention of the Overvoid (I’ve read all of it) outside interview, which the term “non-dual” was rarely ever coined. I, recall, the Overvoid being non-dual only in Morrison’s Green Latern run. Which he happened to also draw the Multiversity Map with the Source being outside everything, which he admits there's no difference between The Source and The Overvoid.

Then in Final Crisis: Secret Files, he explained that the Source “is not dual.” In his rough sketch of Multiversity, he said the Source is the white page outside all of Creation.

Last I recalled outside him, It was never stated The Overvoid was non-dual especially since Justice League: Incarnate which references the very same story of the Overvoid being described during Morrison's time. In Death Metal, even Ultima agreed that the Overvoid is nothing like Final Crisis, it isn't “consciousness nor ground of being” since beings existing in it and being created from its “rent” is impossible.

Not to mention the true void that is self-referential and eternal is the Darkness. We see this in New Gods, Absolute Green Lantern, Absolute Maratin Manhunter, Green Lantern: Dark. The list goes on.

Lastly, I also recall that The Greater Omniverse and The Overvoid were the same thing in Snyder's take of the Void that houses Creation. Last I also recalled they never retcon it being the realm of light before the Multiverse and came into being from the Darkness.

The Divine Presence =/= The Presence?​

As shown above this is stupid. I've read all of DeMatteis’ story, talked to him, read all his interviews. I recount he coined the Presence twice, ever. One in Spectre and the other in Phantom Stranger. All else, he uses “The Presence.” The Presence is just a title that denotes both aspects and the whole, adding the word “divine” makes no difference. Divine Presence was mentioned in a Gaudium storyline in describing the transcendence of Yahweh who was above the immance of his Creation.

What kind of logic is this? Nevertheless, DeMatteis has said it more than 10 times, “The Presence” contains the Void and dreams of the Universe, he literally stated this in Superhirl: Wings when Zauriel was conversing with a demon, that the Presence dreams of everything and everything was just his thoughts and imagination. The same thing was said in a previous comic in Spectre #10, so yeah, why the hell are we counting it like that?

I could continue on, but I've already out everything about the “true extent” of the elemental realms. The recent Aquaman comics and the statement about the Blue/Clear already reaffirms each of the elemental realms are grander in their purest form. I listed the entirety of Animal Man in the current Cosmology page, and there's no actual good rebbutal against it because we tone it to only the smallest aspect of it’s power.
Click to expand...
I can get Ultima statements about Time, Night, and The Endless > Yahweh, Michael, and Lucifer. If the latter are High 1-A, then the former can't be 1-A+. Not to mention, I clearly addressed this in a thread that details out the Cosmology a lot better than what it is now.

The Presence and The Archangels are > The Hands. Both are High 1-A, again thanks to me, but The Endless, who outscale both aren't? Amazing.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I can get Ultima statements about Time, Night, and The Endless > Yahweh, Michael, and Lucifer. If the latter are High 1-A, then the former can't be 1-A+. Not to mention, I clearly addressed this in a thread that details out the Cosmology a lot better than what it is now.

The Presence and The Archangels are > The Hands. Both are High 1-A, again thanks to me, but The Endless, who outscale both aren't? Amazing.
Click to expand...
As far as I am aware Mark Waid recently retconned the DC Comics cosmology, and @Elizio33 has kindly attempted to figure out a coherent scaling based on it. Be respectful towards him. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
As far as I am aware Mark Waid recently retconned the DC Comics cosmology, and @Elizio33 has kindly attempted to figure out a coherent scaling based on it. Be respectful towards him. 🙏
Click to expand...
That wasn't a retcon. The “true extent” scan happened in Sandman #22, which Mark Waid clearly referenced. Not only is the “Endless” not bound to Creation, their aspect are projected from their true self as coming in Creation, Perpetua, isn't the direct creator of them and the scan said nothing of the likes.

So, this incoherency of ignoring the lore of Sandman while being merged is more disrespectful to the work that Mark Waid is trying to do because we ignore one narrative over the other. A “History Book” is like a beginner's guide to cosmology, it isn't going to pinpoint the exact detail as in the end, they referenced where they took the inspiration from.

Ultima can vouch for this, you would argue if he does say otherwise? I'm having a hard time trusting others to do revision when they're making baseless assumptions. Like the two scan aren't even mutual to each other about the relation between Perpetua or The Endless. Regardless, now that it is “unified” based on feat and lore, The Endless “true abstraction” has not been lessen and would need direct evidence to say so.

Read the scan. Tell me where it says Pepretua > Endless?
 
Yes. The New History series is primarily a guide. And it might miss the point of what the comics it references are actually trying to convey. These are natural things.

And I agree with Goofy about the origin of the Endless. I think they extend beyond the multiverses started by Perpetua and the other Hands. Especially since the Sandman explicitly and repeatedly hints that they existed before the Big Bang, and Night's realm is their "home" and beginnings. Perpetua isn't even the creator of everything in the Multiverse. The Endless is not her creation, nor are they her sons'.
 
Phronemos said:
Yes. The New History series is primarily a guide. And it might miss the point of what the comics it references are actually trying to convey. These are natural things.

And I agree with Goofy about the origin of The Endless. I think they extend beyond the multiverses started by Perpetua and the other Hands. Especially since Sandman explicitly and repeatedly hints that they existed before the Big Bang, and Night's realm is their "home" and beginnings. Perpetua isn't even the creator of everything in the Multiverse. The Endless is not her creation, nor are they her sons'.
Click to expand...
Well said. If “age” was so prominent then Silkman (presumably all Aaro Jinns) and The Jin En Moks would not fear Yahweh or his children given that they're very ancient to the point, they were old when Heaven was new.

Plus, Perpetua being near full-power was destroying universes at a time. While Dream concepts encompassing all of Creation and rebuilt the Multiverse. Not some planet throwing cosmic being who is empowered by the Source with feats like that, nowhere near Morpheus much less Dream in its entirety.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

  • Locked
Plot Manipulation for Superboy Prime DC Comics
2
Replies
47
Views
3K
Elizio33
Elizio33
Bossbrosish
Dragon Traveler Discussion Thread
Replies
5
Views
1K
KirbyFan03
KirbyFan03
RigelBR7
DC Pre Crisis Cosmology
Replies
21
Views
4K
TokiNoOuja
TokiNoOuja
Lloydblitzed
  • Locked
DC Rebirth: Simple but Large Update
Replies
19
Views
2K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Lilybitdun
Indie Games General Discussion Thread
6 7 8
Replies
306
Views
16K
Lilybitdun
Lilybitdun
Back
Top