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Re:Creators CRT #2.99999.... : The Infinite Abyss

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Finally, we come to the last part of the Cosmology of the series, one that's often overlooked, The Imaginative Force/Infinite Abyss. But before I proceed, let's first discuss Dualities and Oblivion in the verse:

As already explained in the previous thread and also from my blog, Data composes literally everything in the verse and acts as the fundamental essence which defines and shapes them, from the mundane material to the abstract, such as Plot and Concepts. However, this also includes Duality. The series mentions several dualities that exist within the verse, such as Existence and Non-existence, 1 & 0 (for Bits i.e. Data) Chaos and Order, Good and Evil, Curses and Wishes, and others. As a matter of fact, when Passion and Despair, Good Wishes & Bad Wishes, etc, all are contained in a moment, it gives birth to the Story (which in the verse, ends up becoming a World). So all in all, Dualities exist in the verse, and like everything else, they are all composed of Data, which defines them.

So we know that Data defines everything in creation, including existence and even Chaotic Voids of Nonexistence. So what happens when everything is deleted? Where does it all end up?

Well, the answer is Oblivion. As explained in my blog, Oblivion is the primordial state from which all of creation emerged. In the series, Altair's true goal from the beginning was to cause all of creation to be erased and returned to the original state of Oblivion. This was the "Great Reset" where all worlds, including the Real World (and even the World of Chaos and Nonexistence), would all be erased and nothing would remain at all.

Moreover, when Altair was erased on a fundamental level (Sirius/Altair's erasure deletes Plot and Data), she became nonexistent (NEP 2), and yet, was still registered as part of creation because she had an Existence Coefficient value. However, when Altair came back and Sirius then negated her abilities and regeneration and erased her even harder, her Existence Coefficient became 0, thereby implying she was not at all part of creation anymore and has rather become part of the emptiness of Oblivion. Additionally, when EOS Altair erased the Universe created for Setsuna, we see a Blank Void remaining, which is implied to be the Oblivion itself acting as the background on which the worlds exist as Stories. As such, it can be surmised that Oblivion is the emptiness that completely lacks data and is devoid of any attributes. It exists on the opposite side/outside of creation, where everything emerged from and where everything will return to.

Therefore, its tier will be "At least Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A" (Is the Primordial Emptiness existing outside creation from where all the worlds emerged, including the Real World, and it is where everything will return to eventually. It is completely devoid of Data as well as unconstrained by it, and as such, it lacks any attributes or characteristics that are otherwise defined and determined by Data. It also serves as the background on which all worlds exist in the form of stories, irrespective of their hierarchies, including even the Real World and its Alternate Timelines). Moreover, Oblivion will have:
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Likely Type 2; Completely devoid of Data, which defines Space, Time, Dimension, etc, and thus, not only lacks Spatio-Temporal features, but is also ontologically different from Creation as a whole)
  • Nonduality (Type 1; Unbound by all the dualities present in Creation, which are created from Data)
  • Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 & Aspects Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ; Oblivion is completely devoid of Data, which forms and defines all the aspects of creation, such as Concepts, Souls, Minds, Information, Causality, Space-Time, etc.)

Now that we have gotten this out of the way, let's move on to understand what the Imaginative Force is.
Based on the information given above, the Tier for Imaginative Force will be:
  • Likely 1-A (The Imaginative Force is the metaphysical power existing ontologically transcendental to the entirety of the cosmology, within the Infinite Depths of the Abyss, and which is connected to the Collective Will of the People of the Real World. The Imaginative Force is the Primal Cause as well as the very source of Fate, which predetermined everything in all of Creation and is the wellspring from where Data is generated. From the Abyss, the entirety of the Cosmology and all its Worlds are perceived as mere Fictional Stories without any distinction between the worlds. As such, the Imaginative Force is able to manipulate and govern the worlds, including the Real World, as if they are Stories. The Abyss is completely unbound by Data, which defines everything, and as such, it cannot be expressed as the sum of parts due to lacking any material composition and not being an extension of the Worlds)

Tally
 
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There's an admin for this verse, should get them here since it's 1-A
 
Following.

The likely 1-A seems to make sense; for the moment I agree. Neutral on the rest; I’ll wait for more people to give their opinions.
 
The Infinite Abyss is described as existing beyond the Real World. However, when the original JP text for this is scrutinized, we find that the Abyss is described as infinitely deep in a metaphysical sense (Mukyu/無窮), and is transcendental to the Real World in a superior manner (Ryouga/凌駕).

By the way, while what you posted in the screenshots isn’t exactly wrong, my understanding is that using MTL like that as the basis for an argument is prohibited, so it’d probably be best to have everything confirmed by a translator from the wiki.

I’m saying this because I don’t want the thread to die over that, since the argument itself is honestly good.
 
By the way, while what you posted in the screenshots isn’t exactly wrong, my understanding is that using MTL like that as the basis for an argument is prohibited, so it’d probably be best to have everything confirmed by a translator from the wiki.

I’m saying this because I don’t want the thread to die over that, since the argument itself is honestly good.
I actually asked Seijisetto via DMs and ExecutorN0 offsite regarding that. They could only confirm that Mukyu is Synonymous to Mugen and Ryoga is actually "Surpassing/Outdoing" but in context can mean Transcendent.
 
I actually asked Seijisetto via DMs and ExecutorN0 offsite regarding that. They could only confirm that Mukyu is Synonymous to Mugen and Ryoga is actually "Surpassing/Outdoing" but in context can mean Transcendent.

Yeah, like I said, what you wrote is correct. I just wanted you to get a green light from the wiki’s translators so no one later comes to call you out over it.

I only have one question… why is the transcendence of this void completely different from the transcendence of the real world over the fictional world?

As I interpret it, it seems more like the void is the "highest" part of a hierarchy.

I think a more concrete tier would be Low 1-A, since this void is the ontological source of all the planes and therefore stands entirely above the system you mention in your blog; however, I’m not sure 1-A is coherent, since the other instances of R>F in the verse aren’t 1-A per se, and I don’t see a clear distinction between this case and the others.
 
Yeah, like I said, what you wrote is correct. I just wanted you to get a green light from the wiki’s translators so no one later comes to call you out over it.

I only have one question… why is the transcendence of this void completely different from the transcendence of the real world over the fictional world?

As I interpret it, it seems more like the void is the "highest" part of a hierarchy.

I think a more concrete tier would be Low 1-A, since this void is the ontological source of all the planes and therefore stands entirely above the system you mention in your blog; however, I’m not sure 1-A is coherent, since the other instances of R>F in the verse aren’t 1-A per se, and I don’t see a clear distinction between this case and the others.
That would be the Oblivion.
The transcendence of the Real World over the Story Worlds still rely on stacking of data. However, Oblivion is devoid of this data as the emptiness. Yet all of these are transcended by the Abyss.

An analogy would be the Worlds being Stories irrespective of hierarchy, the Oblivion being the Blank Canvas/Background on which the stories are written, and the Imaginative Force as the Author who writes these stories.
 
That would be the Oblivion.
The transcendence of the Real World over the Story Worlds still rely on stacking of data. However, Oblivion is devoid of this data as the emptiness. Yet all of these are transcended by the Abyss.

An analogy would be the Worlds being Stories irrespective of hierarchy, the Oblivion being the Blank Canvas/Background on which the stories are written, and the Imaginative Force as the Author who writes these stories.

Alright, sounds good then. Who scales to Oblivion inverse?
 
Alright, then considering there are no possible anti-feats and that the Abyss/Oblivion seems to be a void devoid of the very system that defines in-verse dimensionality while simultaneously generating/governing/altering it, I see 1-A as valid.

That the Abyss sees everything as fiction is additional evidence of this.

I’d say the full tier looks feasible; let’s wait to see what the others say.
 
100% agree. put me on the list. Although they should definitely be granted the actual tier rather than likely as theres sufficient evidence supporting it.
 
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Alright, then considering there are no possible anti-feats and that the Abyss/Oblivion seems to be a void devoid of the very system that defines in-verse dimensionality while simultaneously generating/governing/altering it, I see 1-A as valid.

That the Abyss sees everything as fiction is additional evidence of this.

I’d say the full tier looks feasible; let’s wait to see what the others say.
yeah so about this. This thread isnt proposing 1A as the true tier. only as a possibility/probability. So i dont really think it being the full tier would be accepted as its not being argued(so basically, the tier that would show up on the profile would be [Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A] and not [Low 1-C, Low 1-A])
 
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yeah so about this. This thread isnt proposing 1A as the true tier. only as a possibility/probability. So i dont really think it being the full tier would be accepted as its not being argued
Huh?
 
I very much agree, though I think it's actually 1-A instead of "Likely". The arguments are very valid, so i don't think "Likely" is correct, but i can understand the doubt. Personally, i think Altair is truly 1-A. But it's my opinion, i'm sure new arguments will emerge where Tier 1-A will be more convincing. Anyway, i repeat that i agree.
 
As already explained in the previous thread and also from my blog, Data composes literally everything in the verse and acts as the fundamental essence which defines and shapes them, from the mundane material to the abstract, such as Plot and Concepts. However, this also includes Duality. The series mentions several dualities that exist within the verse, such as Reality (Real World) and Fiction (Story Worlds), Existence and Non-existence, Chaos and Order, Good and Evil, Curses and Wishes, and others. As a matter of fact, when Passion and Despair, Good Wishes & Bad Wishes, etc, all are contained in a moment, it gives birth to the Story (which in the verse, ends up becoming a World). So all in all, Dualities exist in the verse, and like everything else, they are all composed of Data, which defines them.
Only logical negation counts as dualities.
 
what exactly do you mean by logical negation? p and ¬p? if thats the case then we already have a few examples.
non existence is just not existence
wrong is literally just not right
 
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Existence and Non-Existence would count. Plus Data is inverse called "Bits" i.e. 1 & 0. So I think it'll be Type 1.
Yeah, they would count, I was just addressing the other dualities.
what exactly do you mean by logical negation? p and ¬p? if thats the case then we already have a few examples.
non existence is just not existence
wrong is literally just not right
Only existence and non-existence count, and right and wrong aren’t logical negations and they don’t include everything.
 
Only existence and non-existence count, and right and wrong aren’t logical negations and they don’t include everything.
i mean if you take right as correct and wrong and not correct(going off oxford definitions) then it would qualify as its bascially just true and false
 
Neutral for now. The transduality arguments look somewhat promising but I'm unsure if the current justifications for a reality-fiction difference between the Imaginative Force and the rest of the cosmology.
 
Neutral for now. The transduality arguments look somewhat promising but I'm unsure if the current justifications for a reality-fiction difference between the Imaginative Force and the rest of the cosmology.
In addition to what I said above, I also would like to add that the true nature of Real World is that its also just a story. As such, people using the Imaginative Force, can create and manipulate all other worlds as mere stories and even influence the Real World and its Fate as if its a Story.
Basically, from the perspective of the Imaginative Force, all worlds are just narratives.
 
When is the Goat Altair gonna have revised Hax

We need to put her in a Vs Kek Match Soon
 
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