One Piece: Locking The Verse

[Qawsedf234]

Shouldn't calcs that have already been agreed to be faulty be removed first from the verse

Maybe, but I'm of mind to just say put an outdated tag on everything and just leave every profile as is until something concrete comes or the manga ends.

 

[Eminiteable]

Shouldn't calcs that have already been agreed to be faulty be removed first from the verse? I can understand not wanting to add any new re-calcs until things like the planet or the islands sizes are settled, but continuing to use calculations that should be removed for potentially a few months seems wrong.

Wouldn't it make more sense to consolidate these issues and come up with a solution during the verse lock.

Theres presently issues brought up for LS, AP and Speed values that need to be tackled with no clear solution or replacement presented other than using what's left over. If they get tackled individually this will, and has in the past, resulted in poor profiles with broken/low effort scaling and justifications.

For the sake of preventing that, putting the verse on lock and consolidating the issues and coming up with a more robust solution than just using what's left, one that hopefully won't be under constant scrutiny and subject to change endlessly over the years seems like the smarter approach to me.

 

[Damage3245]

Wouldn't it make more sense to consolidate these issues and come up with a solution during the verse lock.

Theres presently issues brought up for LS, AP and Speed values that need to be tackled with no clear solution or replacement presented other than using what's left over. If they get tackled individually this will, and has in the past, resulted in poor profiles with broken/low effort scaling and justifications.

For the sake of preventing that, putting the verse on lock and consolidating the issues and coming up with a more robust solution than just using what's left, one that hopefully won't be under constant scrutiny and subject to change endlessly over the years seems like the smarter approach to me.

I can agree with taking time to consider the matter carefully and come up with a group solution working together on the verse - I just don't think that locking the verse down until a conclusion is reached on that is necessarily the best.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Permission from Damage

The primary problem for OP is this: The scaling chain and Calcs keep on being targeted, while most of the verse's profiles are in a poor state and the supporters aren't even done figuring out how to redo their entire LS scaling chain by the time the next AP scaling problem comes around to force them to focus on another 30+ profile scaling chain problem again.

Other problem is that 80% of CGMs refuse to even touch HST or DB, another 19% ghost most requests made of them, and literally only a single CGM gets involved with OP regularly. What's happening is literally increasing demand for calculations to be done while supply of people who have the time, knowledge, and willingness to actually make said calcs is near the dirt. Every thread calling a calculation wrong is just piling on every single issue until the verse starts to resemble pre-deletion Warcraft: Bad profiles, nonsensical scaling, and practically nobody willing and able to do calcs for the verse, much less get them evaluated.

What TEMPORARILY locking the verse does is give the three main editors of the verse, plus @Damage3245 (hopefully) to get things back to where they should be with proper calcs, a scaling chain that actually makes sense, and proper stats. Well, as proper as you can get for a verse like OP anyway.

 

[KingTempest]

I can agree with taking time to consider the matter carefully and come up with a group solution working together on the verse - I just don't think that locking the verse down until a conclusion is reached on that is necessarily the best.

It's clear that it's needed so we can actually sift through issues. If there's something faulty we can bring it to the general discussion, then we pump out all the profiles when ready.

A lock isn't meant just to watch nonsense happen. A lock is meant for things behind the scenes to be planned.

Instead of editing a hundred profiles a month.

 

[Antvasima]

I sympathise with KingTempest and the other One Piece supporters here, and think that KingTempest's request should be granted. They have had a massive amount of frustrations and repetitive hard work to deal with in this regard, and I very strongly request help from our most mathematically skilled staff members with helping KingTempest produce acceptable calculations for all of the relevant feats.

 

[Antvasima]

I sympathise with KingTempest and the other One Piece supporters here, and think that KingTempest's request should be granted. They have had a massive amount of frustrations and repetitive hard work to deal with in this regard, and I very strongly request help from our most mathematically skilled staff members with helping KingTempest produce acceptable calculations for all of the relevant feats.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Mr. Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @TheRustyOne @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @DemiiPowa @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto @SunDaGamer @Chariot190 @Vzearr @Ultima_Reality

 

[DMUA]

In my mind, while I don't agree with a full verse lock, it may be warranted to do something like a "verse freeze". We've done it with Wano scaling when the final battle was going on and we've done it with One Punch Man a couple of times. Maybe we wait until the manga either ends or we get a sufficiently good grasp on the planet's size before doing more with the profiles.

As long as we're all clear that the plan is this more than anything and you're just trying to sit down and figure out everything before a certain cutoff point, I think that's reasonable enough. As Reaper alluded I really don't care about the HST in a versus debating context, so taking it one step at a time is a good solution if not a lot of people are stepping up to the plate.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm already talking with KT on it off site and said I'd look into it, I'm just doing 50 things for 50 different people atm from normal lads to even some other staff when am I not, they got me in the mines constantly..., so didn't exactly wanna commit and voice I was doing anything on wiki so people don't expect much, but I like, already began talking with him a few days ago even and earlier today about this.
Whether or not I can fix shit idk but I already looked into quake stuff on other planets due to Metroid and cloud stuff on other planets I'm pretty damn sure is an easy fix with the info we do have here.
But we'll see, if he randomly posts some sort of revised calc in the coming who-knows-how-long that'd be your answer.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest If this does end up going through, I suggest it be limited only to the statistics sections of characters. Tier, Attack Potency, Speed, Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, Durability, etc. Calc and scaling disputes shouldn't affect the rest of the verse beyond that so CRT's should still be permitted for the verse as long as it doesn't affect those sections.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't see why preventing other people from making changes is necessary for y'all to work out a bunch of calculations and scaling.

Hell, I imagine locking it would be worse, because people would be prevented from bringing up issues until you've revised the entire scaling, requiring you to throw out more work than you would if an issue was pointed out, say, halfway through your work on that.

If you don't want to waste your breath debating threads that will be overturned during your overhaul, then don't. The profiles will be in a state you don't like until then, anyway.

So, I disagree with locking/freezing the verse.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest If this does end up going through, I suggest it be limited only to the statistics sections of characters. Tier, Attack Potency, Speed, Lifting Strength, Striking Strength, Durability, etc. Calc and scaling disputes shouldn't affect the rest of the verse beyond that so CRT's should still be permitted for the verse as long as it doesn't affect those sections.

That's fine

I don't see why preventing other people from making changes is necessary for y'all to work out a bunch of calculations and scaling.

Hell, I imagine locking it would be worse, because people would be prevented from bringing up issues until you've revised the entire scaling, requiring you to throw out more work than you would if an issue was pointed out, say, halfway through your work on that.

If you don't want to waste your breath debating threads that will be overturned during your overhaul, then don't. The profiles will be in a state you don't like until then, anyway.

So, I disagree with locking/freezing the verse.

It's kinda hard when you have to deal with 100 characters and 100 more characters are now being revised Agnaa.

On top of that, when you're in a verse where you need to be skeptical about what is even capable of being calculated, you need to limit who actually works on it.

 

[Agnaa]

It's kinda hard when you have to deal with 100 characters and 100 more characters are now being revised Agnaa.

Here are the potential outcomes I envision when adding new characters:

1. The new characters are independent of the old scaling (scaling to their own feats, or to each other). This adds literally zero work.
2. The new characters adopt portions of the old scaling, both before and after the change. This adds a minimal amount of gruntwork.
3. The new characters adopt part of the old scaling, but only before the change; afterwards they should not scale to the higher value. This would require an additional caveat in the eventual thread, but they could just be left at the old value.
4. The new characters had their own scaling initially, but the new scaling provides higher feats. This adds a minimal amount of gruntwork.
5. The new characters are from older parts of the manga, and cause issues with the new scaling. This is something that should be addressed anyway; we should not be ignoring issues characters introduce just because they don't have pages.
6. The new characters are from newer parts of the manga, and cause issues with the new scaling. This could be limited by a freeze on the latest arc, so you could address it that way. And I think it would kinda suck if the page got posted after you did the revision, since the scaling would be thrown into shambles after more work had been done on it.

I see none where locking the verse provides a significant enough upside to justify such an action.

On top of that, when you're in a verse where you need to be skeptical about what is even capable of being calculated, you need to limit who actually works on it.

I don't think so. I strongly oppose limiting those who can revise a verse to a whitelist of enshrined users. We risk maintaining false narratives by making it a rule violation for anyone outside of a small cabal to bring up ideas.

 

[KingTempest]

Here are the potential outcomes I envision when adding new characters:

1. The new characters are independent of the old scaling (scaling to their own feats, or to each other). This adds literally zero work.
2. The new characters adopt portions of the old scaling, both before and after the change. This adds a minimal amount of gruntwork.
3. The new characters adopt part of the old scaling, but only before the change; afterwards they should not scale to the higher value. This would require an additional caveat in the eventual thread, but they could just be left at the old value.
4. The new characters had their own scaling initially, but the new scaling provides higher feats. This adds a minimal amount of gruntwork.
5. The new characters are from older parts of the manga, and cause issues with the new scaling. This is something that should be addressed anyway; we should not be ignoring issues characters introduce just because they don't have pages.
6. The new characters are from newer parts of the manga, and cause issues with the new scaling. This could be limited by a freeze on the latest arc, so you could address it that way. And I think it would kinda suck if the page got posted after you did the revision, since the scaling would be thrown into shambles after more work had been done on it.

I see none where locking the verse provides a significant enough upside to justify such an action.

Insane how this isn't the only reason for the lock

I don't think so. I strongly oppose limiting those who can revise a verse to a whitelist of enshrined users. We risk maintaining false narratives by making it a rule violation for anyone outside of a small cabal to bring up ideas.

Which is why we're limiting all of it for the meantime so that no one edits the profiles. We're not sitting here and granting people edit rights, we're closing it off so that we can organize what is there before we implement new things.

 

[Vzearr]

I very strongly request help from our most mathematically skilled staff members with helping KingTempest produce acceptable calculations for all of the relevant feats.

I mean, considering "80 percent of staff refuse to touch the verse" (even though it's their somewhat their burden as of being promoted on the wiki), it'll be hard, I can do it but I need at least 2 staff members willing to evaluate every calculation.

As for the locking it seems fair imo, although, would an "outdated page" need to be slapped on there?

 

[KLOL506]

An "Outdated" tag would indeed be applied. But please do not comment further without permission from staff.

 

[Vzearr]

An "Outdated" tag would indeed be applied. But please do not comment further without permission from staff.

I was tagged by Ant, I believe that's permission enough.

 

[KLOL506]

I was tagged by Ant, I believe that's permission enough.

Then that is alright.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, this verse has turned nearly impossible to scale properly due to all of the extreme and relentless continuous focus on disqualifying any of its calculations, so I think that we should allow KingTempest and his collaborators the time and ability to properly produce acceptable calculations and update our massive number of pages for the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

As I just stated elsewhere, there has been an extremely strong tendency to destructively go dead earth "burn it all down" against all the calculations for this verse with much higher scrutiny than what has been done to the vast majority of our other verses, without offering any acceptable replacements calculations for the feats, which I find completely unacceptable, especially for one of our most important verses, the most popular comicbook of all time, and one of the best and most socially relevant stories of all time. We need replacement calculations for the feats in question before we proceed.

 

[Vzearr]

As I just stated elsewhere, there has been an extremely strong tendency to destructively go dead earth "burn it all down" against all the calculations for this verse with much higher scrutiny than what has been done to the vast majority of our other verses, without offering any acceptable replacements calculations for the feats, which I find completely unacceptable, especially for one of our most important verses, the most popular comicbook of all time, and one of the best and most socially relevant stories of all time. We need replacement calculations for the feats in question before we proceed.

Ant, let's relax. Don't worry, I can arrange a replacement calculation, every feat is calculatable, but you really need to calm down. It's rare to see you upset.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not particularly upset, just annoyed and calling things as I genuinely perceive them.

 

[Vzearr]

Okay, I have lots of work projects coming up so I will be busy as of soon, however I still have sufficient time to calculate these feats, @KingTempest, feel free to message me any feats that need calculating and I'll work on them. Although you don't like me I still think it's best to work together here. Just trust me haha.

 

[Agnaa]

Insane how this isn't the only reason for the lock

If there's an important point you think I'm not responding to, feel free to highlight it for me.

Again, this verse has turned nearly impossible to scale properly due to all of the extreme and relentless continuous focus on disqualifying any of its calculations, so I think that we should allow KingTempest and his collaborators the time and ability to properly produce acceptable calculations and update our massive number of pages for the verse.

This reasoning does not follow.

• This verse is impossible to scale because people disqualify its calculations.
• Therefore, we should give people time to make calculations.

What is that supposed to do?!?!?!?!?

Why do you need to stop everyone else from making revisions, for some people to cook up calculations? That does not make creating calculations easier.

And creating new calculations, does not do anything to address the issue of people disqualifying calculations. Congratulations, you prevented any issues being fixed for three months, just so you could make a calculation that ends up getting debunked anyway.

As I just stated elsewhere, there has been an extremely strong tendency to destructively go dead earth "burn it all down" against all the calculations for this verse with much higher scrutiny than what has been done to the vast majority of our other verses, without offering any acceptable replacements calculations for the feats, which I find completely unacceptable, especially for one of our most important verses, the most popular comicbook of all time, and one of the best and most socially relevant stories of all time. We need replacement calculations for the feats in question before we proceed.

If you think that people should recalculate feats, instead of just saying "Yeah that hole looks like an ellipsoid rather than a spherical cap. No I will not recalc it, just remove it." Then sure. But actually make the thread about that, instead of taking this circuitous route.

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that this verse has been so repeatedly dismantled that its supporters are almost completely worn out from maintaining/continuously updating it, so I think that they should be given sufficient time to get a proper basis for revising it, and preferably receive support from our mathematically skilled members who are willing to help out while doing so. The current relentless pace of constantly tearing down anything they attempt to build year after year has turned unmanageable.

 

[Agnaa]

The point is that this verse has been so repeatedly dismantled that its supporters are almost completely worn out from maintaining/continuously updating it, so I think that they should be given sufficient time to get a proper basis for revising it, and preferably receive support from our mathematically skilled members who are willing to help out while doing so. The current relentless pace of constantly tearing down anything they attempt to build has turned unmanageable.

I know from the, like, four-year revision I was a part of for the SCP god-tiers, that this sort of thing is immaterial.

If you're replacing the tiers with something with a proper basis, it does not matter if people nuke a few current calcs, or add a few new ones. You're going to be replacing all of them anyway!!

At most you would need to tweak your arguments in line with the existing ones changing, but those new ideas would be brewing in people's minds and need to be tackled eventually anyway.

And again, if the issue is people tearing down new calcs, they will do that even if the verse is locked!!!! They will do that the second they are applied, unless you arbitrarily decide that the tiers can't be downgraded for X months after they're applied, which would be ludicrous.

I have not been convinced of the utility of this lock.

 

[Antvasima]

The utility is to give the supporters some breathing room so they can produce sufficiently acceptable calculations for the major feats that have been rejected at the moment.

That said, we should start a thread that requests help from our most skilled mathematicians with producing such calculation blogs, yes.

 

[Agnaa]

Breathing room. So they would not have to engage with things that, without this lock, they would have to engage with.

If they are making a new calculation that upgrades the characters, then that could only be meaningfully interrupted by someone finding a different calculation that upgrades the characters even higher. Given how the concern expressed here is that characters are being dismantled, scaled to feats far lower than they should be, this doesn't seem like it's actually worsening the issue at hand; in fact, it'd be easing the work of those advocating for the lock.

That aside, the only interruptions are either tangential (i.e. ability changes), or meaningless (downgrades which will be overwritten by their later upgrades).

I categorically refuse to lock a verse so that three people avoid the mental trauma of seeing a 5-C rating changed to a High 6-A one while they take a month spending two hours a week working on a 5-A calculation. Just ******* ignore it, if the pages are wrong anyway, dedicate your time to fixing it faster.

I don't think we should prevent ability revisions from occurring so that the supporters have slightly more time to work on upgrade calculations. All improvements to the pages have merit, and I don't think we should prevent some so that some people can focus harder on others.

Hell, if we really want to optimise the speed of getting the upgrades done, then we should not have distractions like this very thread. Just hunker down and work on it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree about that a common thread for a collaborative project would be preferable if it receives the necessary help, but the way I have understood this, the main issue is that the supporters for this verse are currently very tired of consistently having to update over a 100 pages over and over.

Also, personally I don't care if the verse is downgraded, but it seems very unreliable if all of its most impressive feats lack accepted calculations, regardless if they end up far lower scaled than currently.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I agree about that a common thread for a collaborative project would be preferable if it receives the necessary help, but the way I have understood this, the main issue is that the supporters for this verse are currently very tired of consistently having to update over a 100 pages over and over.

Also, personally I don't care if the verse is downgraded, but it seems very unreliable if all of its most impressive feats lack accepted calculations, regardless if they end up far lower scaled than currently.

In the past 2 years Kaidou's AP statistics were changed significantly 5 times, here, here, here, here, and here. All of these changes were upgrades based on new calculations being added or new scaling being updated.

So the changing of statistics frequently hasn't been an issue in any of these circumstances beforehand. And it clearly wasn't the results of calcs being debunked that required these changes to take place. So the instability of the verse can't be attributed solely to calcs being debunked.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, I agree about that a common thread for a collaborative project would be preferable if it receives the necessary help, but the way I have understood this, the main issue is that the supporters for this verse are currently very tired of consistently having to update over a 100 pages over and over.

Generally, the creator of the thread is responsible for that sort of thing.

If people are making tiny finicky changes over and over again, the supporters don't have to change all the pages in line with that. Say, they don't have to update every tweak of a statistic value up/down 1% just because a calc is accepted and some staff FRA it.

 

[Antvasima]

In the past 2 years Kaidou's AP statistics were changed significantly 5 times, here, here, here, here, and here. All of these changes were upgrades based on new calculations being added or new scaling being updated.

So the changing of statistics frequently hasn't been an issue in any of these circumstances beforehand. And it clearly wasn't the results of calcs being debunked that required these changes to take place. So the instability of the verse can't be attributed solely to calcs being debunked.

Hmm. I have likely misunderstood the situation then.

We genuinely do need to find accepted calculations for the main feats that are reliable, accurate, not exaggerated or understated, and that we can stick to in the long run, for this verse though. This does not seem like a manageable situation.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would say that until the baseline rules for the world and verse are established, it should be fine to place outdated tags on the relevant profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[KingTempest]

In the past 2 years Kaidou's AP statistics were changed significantly 5 times, here, here, here, here, and here. All of these changes were upgrades based on new calculations being added or new scaling being updated.

So the changing of statistics frequently hasn't been an issue in any of these circumstances beforehand. And it clearly wasn't the results of calcs being debunked that required these changes to take place. So the instability of the verse can't be attributed solely to calcs being debunked.

there's a difference between changing based on upgrades or downgrade (which isn't a problem) and changing based on feats we are literally unable to measure

 

[FinePoint]

I strongly agree with Agnaa's sentiment that the issue here is essentially illusory- not allowing people to work on a verse just because others are working on something bigger in the background is a bad precedent to set. You do not have to fight every revision that is made in the meantime. If you know your work is going to replace it in the future anyway, then what's the issue other than a temporary period where you disagree with what's listed on the profile?

That said, while I don't support a full lock or freeze, I think adding outdated templates to the pages is reasonable if the very basis of many major calculations is currently under question and where it'll ultimately end up is highly uncertain.

 

[Vzearr]

After checking this out again. I hope I can give an updated opinion based on my new schedule.

Locking the verse might sound like the cleanest solution to OP fans, but I think it’s worth weighing whether it’s actually necessary, cause genuinely, it's just not. A lock would stop the cycle of constant revisions, but it also risks shutting down progress from random supporters completely. Basically good faith contributions, simple profile fixes, or clarifications that could help will be paused so that a few supporters can help fix the verse and likely miss things like this. For a verse as big as One Piece, it could easily backfire and frustrate a lot of the new people who want to see it improve, I can vouch for this as the TR verse being locked has frustrated a lot of people I know, and I could only imagine what random One Piece fans would think about this. An alternative that staff suggested that would be as effective is slapping the “Outdated” tag on the affected profiles, which I agree with. That way, everyone can clearly see that the material isn’t considered final, but gradual improvements from new users aren’t blocked. While KT and others can work on the verse in private. It doesn't change anything at all. In my opinion, a full lock should really be a last resort if disruptive behavior gets so bad that nothing can be done. But the real issue is just that calcs and scaling keep shifting around, the outdated tag (plus maybe stricter oversight on revision threads like from new users that seem low quality should be stopped) would be enough to prevent the "chaos" claimed while still letting the whole One Piece community work on the verse, again, instead of just a few supporters.

I believe I can still help the verse even with my new schedule, so feel free to message me, but again, locking the verse is flawed as I've explained.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think adding outdated templates to the pages is reasonable if the very basis of many major calculations is currently under question and where it'll ultimately end up is highly uncertain.

I would say that until the baseline rules for the world and verse are established, it should be fine to place outdated tags on the relevant profiles.

I'm a bit late here, but to add, I'm also fine with the Outdated tags.

 

[Vietthai96]

Late here, but just Outdated tags on the profiles is fine. Locking the verse is harsh, especially when we locking a verse we essentially prevent any change and revise, thus making supporters unable to update the verse, i understand the issue with calcs, but there are other aspects of the profile too, like power & abilities, scans, link, justification, references and other informations, etc....., those are also often need to be looked upon to update and improve

 

[Firestorm808]

Staus of this thread? Was this implemented?