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Causality user vs Causality user

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AlipheeseXIV

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Kumagawa
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Giorno Giovanna Niwa Yume Ga Aru (Voidnether, DRW001, Chariot190, OmegaBronic, Wonder_of_Fantasy, Gamecooob, Enter_Bluey)
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Inconclusive: (Medaka619, AlipheeseXIV)

Kumagawa is 8B physically, it is EoS so he has NF. Giorno is H8C physically, he starts with GER (right after getting the arrow)
Speed is equalized
SBA
Starting distance is 50 meters
Vita + Il vento d'oro is playing
 
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Pretty sure GER is passive causality manipulation while Kumagawa has to act in order to use his. Say Kumagawa tries to undo the arrow, well it won’t really matter since GER is passively reverting his actions to zero (which includes his willpower). Theres really nothing Kumagawa can do.
 
GER has no feats of affecting Conceptual Manipulation
Kumagawa has conceptual manipulation but the moment he even pulls it off by erasing the concept of stands or something, RTZ will just activate and revert it. Unless wiki changed the rules or something about him being unable to revert CM, then I’d agree Ngl
 
Yeah, it really comes down to whether the other's causality hax work. Granted, Kumagawa has no knowledge that the arrow is the source of GER's power. So I am not entirely sure if he'd automatically target that, but it's true Kumagawa can avoid being killed by GER fairly easily as his causality hax is infinitely more versatile.
 
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Not to mention, since it is his EoS key. He should of erased the concept of things like his presence, then there is the thought based screws + bookmaker gg argument I guess. Though in my opinion, I think GER would actually negate bookmaker.
 
Kumagawa has conceptual manipulation but the moment he even pulls it off by erasing the concept of stands or something, RTZ will just activate and revert it. Unless wiki changed the rules or something about him being unable to revert CM, then I’d agree Ngl
He was never able to revert CM.
 
Screws and bookmaker get reverted. GER is massively faster on both passive and active. Even if kumagawa were to erase his time and become infinite, rtz scales above this.

While there are multiple routes kumagawa can try to take, GER just needs to take one to win, and powernull the activation before he even has a chance to get it off. All fiction itself, is infact, causality manip and erases cause and effect. It can be affected. The ability isnt a concept or something. "The moment he pulls it off" wont really happen, he won't be able to pull it off in the first place.


It can affect concepts sure...but I don't think it has a factor in this fight. Like if kumagawa "erased all stands" then obviously giorno would lose at that point lol, that won't be allowed to happen in the first place. It's not like "'oh he erased all stands, I am alive to see this rn, time to revert it!"
 
All fiction itself, is infact, causality manip and erases cause and effect. It can be affected. The ability isnt a concept or something. "The moment he pulls it off" wont really happen, he won't be able to pull it off in the first place.


It can affect concepts sure...but I don't think it has a factor in this fight. Like if kumagawa "erased all stands" then obviously giorno would lose at that point lol, that won't be allowed to happen in the first place. It's not like "'oh he erased all stands, I am alive to see this rn, time to revert it!"
Yes it is causality manip, but the things it can affect are far superior to what Giorno can affect with GER. Also no, there isn't actually anything to outright state that GER can power null AF, in fact it doesn't nullify abilities outright, it just does so through causality hax and it has no feats to support your claims.

You will need a better argument than that.
 
AF has far better range in the amount of things it can affect, GER never having been shown against another causality hax is very crucial here. Also it can be argued to not even passively function against hax of a certain scale as obviously it didn't activate when Pucci used MIH.
 
Yes it is causality manip, but the things it can affect are far superior to what Giorno can affect with GER. Also no, there isn't actually anything to outright state that GER can power null AF, in fact it doesn't nullify abilities outright, it just does so through causality hax and it has no feats to support your claims.

You will need a better argument than that.
Also so I'm clear, I'm not trying to say GER doesn't have power null. Just that the power null is specifically tied to the causality hax itself rather than it's own independent ability.
 
AF has far better range in the amount of things it can affect, GER never having been shown against another causality hax is very crucial here.
?????
GER quite literally countered causality hax in its only canon fight what?
Also it can be argued to not even passively function against hax of a certain scale as obviously it didn't activate when Pucci used MIH.
There are many different possible reasons as to why GER didn't activate (e.g. arrow fell out of Giorno so GER didn't even exist when MiH happened, MiH doesn't effect nor even directly hurt living beings so GER has no reason to activate, you get the picture). Also in literally every single alternative media that the two stands have interacted with each other, GER has been consistently shown dogging on MiH so there's that too
Also no, there isn't actually anything to outright state that GER can power null AF, in fact it doesn't nullify abilities outright, it just does so through causality hax and it has no feats to support your claims.
Also so I'm clear, I'm not trying to say GER doesn't have power null. Just that the power null is specifically tied to the causality hax itself rather than it's own independent ability.
Whether the power null is specifically tied to causality or it's own thing is irrelevant when the guidebooks state verbatim that GER nulls abilities ('It negated all of King Crimson's abilities' and 'Reduces all power to zero')
It can affect concepts sure...but I don't think it has a factor in this fight. Like if kumagawa "erased all stands" then obviously giorno would lose at that point lol, that won't be allowed to happen in the first place. It's not like "'oh he erased all stands, I am alive to see this rn, time to revert it!"
Tbh I don't think Kumagawa erasing him would even work. During King Crimson's time erasure, the entire world and existance itself are erased as well. All processes and events are also erased and obliterated during time erasure. Which means that RTZ kicked in and nulled Diavolo's shit whilst both Giorno and GER were literally not existing. (This has all been accepted and can be viewed on Gio's profile or the King Crimson explannation blog)

Also for what it's worth, stands have been referred as 'concepts' like 40 ******* times in interviews lmao
 
NLF since he has no feat of reversing conceptual manipulation
Doesn't need to effect the power when he can effect the person doing so. Like you don't need to be able to catch a bullet if you just break the dude's arm.

Not that it really matters, what's it gonna do? RTZ has already kicked in and activated when GER itself literally did not even exist at the moment. Delete him, wipe his ass from existence, one of his few feats that isn't just upscaling accounts for it.
also pretty sure you could throw the "flow" under conceptual manip anyway, in which case GER has funny upscaling from last guide.
 
AF has far better range in the amount of things it can affect,
Hard statements saying it can affect every single thing in verse, from multiple sources.
Ironically also has better range flatout being able to still affect Diavolo from not just worlds away, but different times (Battle takes place April 5th 6am iirc, we get multiple times stated in the death loop that somehow take place both before and after that date, before cutting back and not even a minute has passed).
GER never having been shown against another causality hax is very crucial here.
Literally its only real onscreen feat, is negging causality manip.
Also it can be argued to not even passively function against hax of a certain scale as obviously it didn't activate when Pucci used MIH.
King Crimson is actively way, way, way worse compared to MIH on paper, one is uni gravity manip that doesn't actually harm anyone, one is straight up uni EE, and there's a dozen reasons why it may or may not have taken effect, whether he didn't have GER anymore, the fact MIH isn't actually a threat to it because MIH doesn't kill anyone or effect anyone to begin (It effects the world and Pucci) or even just because that'd be actually stupid and why would a character who isn't even in the part come in and kill the main villain?
Ignore the powerscaling brainrot, in what world is that good writing? It'd be straight up insulting.

Though, the fact in every single piece of media that features both GER and MIH, GER casually neg diffs MIH, and in some cases is passively unaffected by it.... Well, if we wanna talk hypotheticals, I'm more inclined to take official hypotheticals that coincide with direct statements given in canon material.
 
?????
GER quite literally countered causality hax in its only canon fight what?
That's my mistake, forgot Diavolo had causality hax but they are extremely limited.
There are many different possible reasons as to why GER didn't activate (e.g. arrow fell out of Giorno so GER didn't even exist when MiH happened, MiH doesn't effect nor even directly hurt living beings so GER has no reason to activate, you get the picture). Also in literally every single alternative media that the two stands have interacted with each other, GER has been consistently shown dogging on MiH so there's that too
This still proves that there are ways to bypass RTZ, it's not a passive hax more like thought based not to mention it has to directly affect Giorno or GER itself. There is no point in going off topic about GER vs MIH, my intent was not to directly compare the 2 simply to prove that GER's RTZ is not as all encompassing as people make it seem.
Whether the power null is specifically tied to causality or it's own thing is irrelevant when the guidebooks state verbatim that GER nulls abilities ('It negated all of King Crimson's abilities' and 'Reduces all power to zero')
No, it is actually extremely relevant in this fight as it would mean that the perquisite I just mentioned (regarding RTZ only activating when you specifically target GER/Giorno itself) would not otherwise immediately activate the power null.
Tbh I don't think Kumagawa erasing him would even work. During King Crimson's time erasure, the entire world and existance itself are erased as well. All processes and events are also erased and obliterated during time erasure. Which means that RTZ kicked in and nulled Diavolo's shit whilst both Giorno and GER were literally not existing. (This has all been accepted and can be viewed on Gio's profile or the King Crimson explannation blog)
Not entirely, it's more so that GER had the ability to interact with Diavolo's ability itself.
Also for what it's worth, stands have been referred as 'concepts' like 40 ******* times in interviews lmao
Doesn't mean anything, they aren't concepts. At least not currently, we're only sticking to what's accepted on the profiles right now.
 
Hard statements saying it can affect every single thing in verse, from multiple sources.
Ironically also has better range flatout being able to still affect Diavolo from not just worlds away, but different times (Battle takes place April 5th 6am iirc, we get multiple times stated in the death loop that somehow take place both before and after that date, before cutting back and not even a minute has passed).
That's just unique to the death loop itself, I don't see any reason why that would flat out equate to it's literal normal range. Even more so when as I previously stated, the MIH reset completely contradicts that notion.
King Crimson is actively way, way, way worse compared to MIH on paper, one is uni gravity manip that doesn't actually harm anyone, one is straight up uni EE, and there's a dozen reasons why it may or may not have taken effect, whether he didn't have GER anymore, the fact MIH isn't actually a threat to it because MIH doesn't kill anyone or effect anyone to begin (It effects the world and Pucci) or even just because that'd be actually stupid and why would a character who isn't even in the part come in and kill the main villain?
Ignore the powerscaling brainrot, in what world is that good writing? It'd be straight up insulting.

Though, the fact in every single piece of media that features both GER and MIH, GER casually neg diffs MIH, and in some cases is passively unaffected by it.... Well, if we wanna talk hypotheticals, I'm more inclined to take official hypotheticals that coincide with direct statements given in canon material.
If resetting the universe doesn't count as harming any person then that literally proves as a way to bypass RTZ, it does in this case absolutely harm GER itself because by resetting the universe it stops GER from literally existing. That is even more proof that you can bypass it by targeting something beyond the user itself. Which once again, reiterates my point that it isn't as simple as just "RTZ GG"
 
That's my mistake, forgot Diavolo had causality hax but they are extremely limited.
Doesn't matter if it is or isn't. RTZ can explicitly negate and null 4D causality manip just fine.
How Diavolo may or may not be able to use it doesn't mean much when all that matters is if RTZ itself has the capabilities of negating it completely on a universal scale, which, it does.
This still proves that there are ways to bypass RTZ,
No it doesn't? You're making headcanon assumptions for why a character who wasn't written into the part, was effected, when we are NEVER told or shown he's effected, and in fact, every piece of ino we have says the exact opposite.

Like even to this day, we have statements, post Part 6, saying RTZ can and will negate everything to nothing in JoJo, as recently as early Part 8, ie, long after MIH is a thing.
it's not a passive hax more like thought based not to mention it has to directly affect Giorno or GER itself.
It is passive, it's straight up effected and undone stuff while neither were cognizant, and while they didn't even exist. This isn't up for debate.
There is no point in going off topic about GER vs MIH, my intent was not to directly compare the 2 simply to prove that GER's RTZ is not as all encompassing as people make it seem.
And yet, your comparison is one made of ignorance, ignores the fact every piece of info actually suggests GER would curb MIH into the ground and get turned into nothing too with GER being passively unhindered by it.
No, it is actually extremely relevant in this fight as it would mean that the perquisite I just mentioned (regarding RTZ only activating when you specifically target GER/Giorno itself) would not otherwise immediately activate the power null.
It would. You're saying something that would ultimately effect GER, isn't effecting GER, but it would. Effecting the arrow or Stands as a concept, directly effects GER as a being and Gio, it's an actively harmful effect.

We know RTZ can take action while GER doesn't exist, we know it's faster, instant, and can even effect things semi retroactively. We know it can negate 4D uni scale causality manip. There's zero reason why this wouldn't iwork.
Not entirely, it's more so that GER had the ability to interact with Diavolo's ability itself.
Actually incorrect, they word it very clearly as RTZ is effecting "the erased time". It's accepted, unless you want to make a CRT to get it removed which, have fun doing that, he's in the right here.
Doesn't mean anything, they aren't concepts. At least not currently, we're only sticking to what's accepted on the profiles right now.
Aren't you LITERALLY ignoring what's accepted on the profiles RIGHT now?
 
That's just unique to the death loop itself,
No it isn't. The Death Loop isn't a special ability, it's just RTZ being used to negate a death. The range is accepted on page too.
I don't see any reason why that would flat out equate to it's literal normal range.
Because it's his normal ability? There is no such thing as a "Death loop", it isn't a unique power, it isn't this special technique, it is just his normal ability, RTZ, being used on Diavolo's death, making it so it doesn't come to pass. There's nothing different between that, or anything else.

Mind you, RTZ is stated to have range that is incomparable to any other Stand Ability, which includes at least 4 multi-dimensional powers in range by that point, and even 5 seconds before that has a Uni+ range feat so like, it isn't exactly unprecedented.

You're creating a distinction where none exist, where one explicitly doesn't exist, and foregoing how it has said feats.
Even more so when as I previously stated, the MIH reset completely contradicts that notion.
Do you even know what the MIH reset does? Because with how you're talking about it, it doesn't really look like you do.
If resetting the universe doesn't count as harming any person then that literally proves as a way to bypass RTZ,
If the person isn't effected by it in any way whatsoever, yeah?
Like why would RTZ kick in to negate a stiff breeze across the other side of the planet?
it does in this case absolutely harm GER itself because by resetting the universe it stops GER from literally existing.
Oh, you ACTUALLY don't know how MIH works. Man, you know MIH doesn't kill people right? Or even harm them? That's the whole point, even something as miniscule as an ant is SAFELY moved to the new world.
That is even more proof that you can bypass it by targeting something beyond the user itself. Which once again, reiterates my point that it isn't as simple as just "RTZ GG"
What it reiterates, is you don't actually even know what MIH is, and using a Stand that we're basically straight up told can't beat GER, and if you want to include tertiary material, is flatout shown CAN'T beat GER and GER is passively uneffected, as an argument, because the author didn't include Giorno into a part he had no business being in.
 
Doesn't matter if it is or isn't. RTZ can explicitly negate and null 4D causality manip just fine.
How Diavolo may or may not be able to use it doesn't mean much when all that matters is if RTZ itself has the capabilities of negating it completely on a universal scale, which, it does.
Only if said thing directly affects him. You are completely misunderstanding the difference between range and potency.
No it doesn't? You're making headcanon assumptions for why a character who wasn't written into the part, was effected, when we are NEVER told or shown he's effected, and in fact, every piece of ino we have says the exact opposite.
Explain how it's head canon if it's officially shown this way? And why do you keep using the excuse that "they weren't written into the part" that literally means absolutely nothing. Part 5 and 6 aren't taken place in different universes, it is literally on the same planet not even a couple dozen years later. What's head canon is you trying to argue it isn't the case when it is objectively shown to be the opposite, as if you're claims of it having universal range were true we would see it in P6 regardless.
Like even to this day, we have statements, post Part 6, saying RTZ can and will negate everything to nothing in JoJo, as recently as early Part 8, ie, long after MIH is a thing.
Statements with no actual tangible proof to back them up are a pointless argument, do you realize how much of an utter stomp this would be in Kumagawa's favor if we let every single statement with no showings be accepted as apart of the characters P&A's?
It is passive, it's straight up effected and undone stuff while neither were cognizant, and while they didn't even exist. This isn't up for debate.
This is literally a lie lmao, you don't have to be a power scaler to CLEARLY see in the anime and manga that GER was fully aware of what was happening during king crimson's time erasure, genuinely what is this take?
And yet, your comparison is one made of ignorance, ignores the fact every piece of info actually suggests GER would curb MIH into the ground and get turned into nothing too with GER being passively unhindered by it.
The argument is not whether GER would curb MIH, it's what constitutes as a threat to activate RTZ. To which, the universe reset did not constitute as such, please stay on topic.
It would. You're saying something that would ultimately effect GER, isn't effecting GER, but it would. Effecting the arrow or Stands as a concept, directly effects GER as a being and Gio, it's an actively harmful effect.
Once again contradicted by the fact that MIH's universe reset literally effects such things, I don't understand this circular logic.
We know RTZ can take action while GER doesn't exist, we know it's faster, instant, and can even effect things semi retroactively. We know it can negate 4D uni scale causality manip. There's zero reason why this wouldn't iwork.
Ok, why don't you mention the reason rather than just trying to imply that Kumagawa's causality manip is the same as Diavolo's and thus should be negated by RTZ when that simply isn't the case?
Actually incorrect, they word it very clearly as RTZ is effecting "the erased time". It's accepted, unless you want to make a CRT to get it removed which, have fun doing that, he's in the right here.
That's just word salad bro, that's literally what I said. It is also literally shown on the page as NEP interaction. What are we doing.
Aren't you LITERALLY ignoring what's accepted on the profiles RIGHT now?
No, I'm ignoring things that aren't accepted on the profiles. Such as, the statements you are mentioning regarding it being above universe reset which are not indexed as justification in the P&A section.
 
No it isn't. The Death Loop isn't a special ability, it's just RTZ being used to negate a death. The range is accepted on page too.
I never said it was a special ability.
Because it's his normal ability? There is no such thing as a "Death loop", it isn't a unique power, it isn't this special technique, it is just his normal ability, RTZ, being used on Diavolo's death, making it so it doesn't come to pass. There's nothing different between that, or anything else.

Mind you, RTZ is stated to have range that is incomparable to any other Stand Ability, which includes at least 4 multi-dimensional powers in range by that point, and even 5 seconds before that has a Uni+ range feat so like, it isn't exactly unprecedented.

You're creating a distinction where none exist, where one explicitly doesn't exist, and foregoing how it has said feats.
Once again, never said or attempted to imply it was a separate ability.
If the person isn't effected by it in any way whatsoever, yeah?
Like why would RTZ kick in to negate a stiff breeze across the other side of the planet?
What are you talking about? This isn't about negating a stiff breeze across the other side of the planet, that is an incredibly poor analogy.
Oh, you ACTUALLY don't know how MIH works. Man, you know MIH doesn't kill people right? Or even harm them? That's the whole point, even something as miniscule as an ant is SAFELY moved to the new world.
I never said it killed people.
What it reiterates, is you don't actually even know what MIH is, and using a Stand that we're basically straight up told can't beat GER, and if you want to include tertiary material, is flatout shown CAN'T beat GER and GER is passively uneffected, as an argument, because the author didn't include Giorno into a part he had no business being in.
That would still mean there is no evidence to support either claim, as such the statements themselves don't prove anything lol. Again with the circular logic, you're trying to use these statements to your advantage while simultaneously not using what is shown by arguing that the statements are more important than the actual feats.
 
This entire time, there has not been an explanation as to WHY Giorno's RTZ would triumph over Kumagawa's AF. The only thing you have been doing is using a completely separate fight, with a completely different character to argue against this entirely different character who isn't even from the same verse. It's nonsensical. Using in verse stuff/characters to support existing feats or their potency/range is one thing but you legit haven't actually acknowledged Kumagawa in your argument even though it is the entire point of the thread lmao.
 
Only if said thing directly affects him. You are completely misunderstanding the difference between range and potency.
Which it does.
Explain how it's head canon if it's officially shown this way?
Oh OFFICIALLY? So as long as it's official?


For reference, the only character in the game, and only with GER active, is he passively unphased by MIH, it legit just doesn't do anything.
Why are you yapping about this? Like actually stop. We have statements post MIH saying GER negates the whole verse, you're digging a hole here arguing something you don't even understand and it's kind of annoying.
And why do you keep using the excuse that "they weren't written into the part" that literally means absolutely nothing.
Because they weren't written into the part?
For all we know GER was uneffected, why are you assuming he was?

And also because that's actually stupid, imagine writing a manga that's been going on for years, and suddenly this dude shows up and dogwalks the final boss because people on the internet in 25 years can't take a hint that not everything has to be about powerscaling or spelt out, sometimes the actual manga matters more.
Part 5 and 6 aren't taken place in different universes, it is literally on the same planet not even a couple dozen years later.
Do we know if Gio still has GER? Do we know if Gio was actually effected to begin with? No?
Then why are you yapping about this?
What's head canon is you trying to argue it isn't the case when it is objectively shown to be the opposite, as if you're claims of it having universal range were true we would see it in P6 regardless.
Go make a CRT or stop talking, GER has Uni range accepted atm.
It is head canon because you're assuming he's effected, which is never shown or stated, in fact we're told and shown the opposite.
What's headcanon is you assuming GER is even stil a thing, which is left deliberately vague.

You're making numerous assumptions, arriving to a conclusion that isn't even remotely fact, and parading that as if it's an actual point when if anything you should have been ignored the instant you brought it up because every piece of info we actually do have on this interaction, claims the opposite of what you are doing.
Statements with no actual tangible proof to back them up are a pointless argument,
So..... Exactly what youre doing but worse because there's actually tangible proof for this?
do you realize how much of an utter stomp this would be in Kumagawa's favor if we let every single statement with no showings be accepted as apart of the characters P&A's?
I don't really give a damn what it is, you're spouting nonsense about MIH effecting GER, when every piece of info that's been given on the subject says he'd be uneffected.
You're making this claim out of ignorance of not even understanding what MIH does to begin with, effecting him, something you don't actually know because we aren't even shown him effected, and stating as fact he must've been, ignoring every caveat or detail, and it's legit obnoxious.

You want to argue this? Prove he was effected, I want a statement, a showing, if you can't do so, drop it.
This is literally a lie lmao, you don't have to be a power scaler to CLEARLY see in the anime and manga that GER was fully aware of what was happening during king crimson's time erasure, genuinely what is this take?
Yeah, he was, after RTZ kicked in.
Did you ignore the whole scene before that point where he wasn't?

Also it's accepted, again.
The argument is not whether GER would curb MIH, it's what constitutes as a threat to activate RTZ. To which, the universe reset did not constitute as such, please stay on topic.
It does because you're making claims based on headcanon conjecture with no proof behind it.

Does Gio even still have GER at that point? Can you prove that? If not you can't even get this argument off the ground.
Was GER effected by MIH? If so show me.
Do we know why he didn't do anything? No? Then why claim it as such.
In such a case, why is it in every media they interact GER is uneffected by MIH?
Why does GER still have statements, parallel to MIH even, like his ass is a few pages over, stating RTZ effects everything in verse and turns it to nothing still?
Why this, why that.

Your argument isn't an argument, it's you using legit headcanon where every unknown has to be a very specific thing for you to have a point, while also ignoring everything that goes against said point explicitly.
Once again contradicted by the fact that MIH's universe reset literally effects such things, I don't understand this circular logic.
It legit doesn't. You don't understand because you don't even know what MIH does. MIH literally doesn't effect anyone, if it did, everyone would be fast too and functionally nothing would happen.
MIH also doesn't harm anyone.
Ok, why don't you mention the reason rather than just trying to imply that Kumagawa's causality manip is the same as Diavolo's and thus should be negated by RTZ when that simply isn't the case?
Because that's how this wiki works?
Can RTZ negate 4D uni scale causality manip? Yes? Ok so it can effect literally this too.
It doesn't matter if he's versatile with it, it's the same ability that RTZ can passively negate just fine.
That's just word salad bro, that's literally what I said. It is also literally shown on the page as NEP interaction. What are we doing.
Ignoring what happened it would seem.
As said, drop it or go make a CRT, I'm not arguing your headcanon, it's on the profile.
No, I'm ignoring things that aren't accepted on the profiles.
This tells me you aren't actually READING the profiles because goddamn.
Such as, the statements you are mentioning regarding it being above universe reset which are not indexed as justification in the P&A section.
It's above something far, far, greater? We don't mention it being above Sex Pistols either because why would we? It on screen nulls a High 3-A 4D ability, which IS accepted btw

Hence why Diavolo has High 3-A ED.
 
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I never said it was a special ability.
Then don't act like it's different.
Once again, never said or attempted to imply it was a separate ability.
Then don't act like it's different.
What are you talking about? This isn't about negating a stiff breeze across the other side of the planet, that is an incredibly poor analogy.
Why? MIH doesn't effect anyone, that's the whole point.
I never said it killed people.
You straight up said GER wouldn't exist because of the Uni Reset.
That would still mean there is no evidence to support either claim, as such the statements themselves don't prove anything lol.
We have multiple pieces of media showing GER being unphased my Time Accel, explicitly uneffected by the reset, and is effectively immortal.
We are told RTZ will negate every ability in verse, post Part 6 mind you.

That is evidence, hell that's a direct statement.
Again with the circular logic, you're trying to use these statements to your advantage while simultaneously not using what is shown by arguing that the statements are more important than the actual feats.
What is shown? We're not shown ANYTHING is the problem. You're taking an unknown and absence of evidence ad twisting it to suit an agenda, meanwhile what's actually been shown or stated, goes against your claim and you're acting like you have a point. You don't, prove GER is even a thing still in Part 6, prove he was effected, prove that Araki didn't just not do anything because of PIS bullshit because writing it in would be actually braindead narratively, prove why all these direct statements or even direct showings in games, novels, and more somehow don't implicate the exact opposite as if GER vs MIH isn't a popular topic that they're well aware of and had answered in a bunch of things elsewhere to go "yeah he wasnt in the manga, but GER wouldnt be phased and would curb him lol".

Your entire argument, is nothing but headcanon you can't even prove because you can't even get past the point of even confirming Gio had GER at that point, let alone the rest of stuff you'd need to confirm or even prove false somehow.

So instead of wasting both our time, go make those CRT's you evidently must do as you don't want to use what's on the profiles.
 
Yeah everything the other guy has is based off of causality manip, which GER legit negated in its fight.

voting Gio here
 
Which it does.
Uhh...okay? I'm confused, you're just proving my point here.
Oh OFFICIALLY? So as long as it's official?


Why are you yapping about this? Like actually stop. We have statements post MIH saying GER negates the whole verse, you're digging a hole here arguing something you don't even understand and it's kin of annoying.

Confused, if GER negates the whole verse why can't you find me an example of it negating MIH's universe reset without going to a game? I'm also not sure whether it is officially cannon or not. You're also "kind of" annoying by not addressing the actual person fighting against the character so I guess we share that in common.
Because they weren't written into the part?
For all we know GER was uneffected, why are you assuming he was?
Ok, can you show me proof that GER was unaffected?
And also because that's actually stupid, imagine writing a manga that's been going on for years, and suddenly this dude shows up and dogwalks the final boss because people on the internet in 25 years can't take a hint.
Not a good argument in the slightest. Proves nothing.
Do we know if Gio still has GER? Do we know if Gio was actually effected to begin with? No?
Then why are you yapping about this?
Can you prove the opposite? If no then yes. The default interpretation would be that they were affected.
Go make a CRT or stop talking, GER has Uni range accepted atm.
It is head canon because you're assuming he's effected, which is never shown or stated, in fact we're told and shown the opposite.
What's headcanon is you assuming GER is even stil a thing, which is left deliberately vague.
Never said GER didn't have uni range, also not sure why you're continuing the chain of saying something you have no proof to back up.
You're making numerous assumptions, arriving to a conclusion that isn't even remotely fact, and parading that as if it's an actual point when if anything you should have been ignored the instant you brought it up because every piece of info we actually do have on this interaction, claims the opposite of what you are doing.
Then, it is as simple as proving me wrong. Something you continuously have shown to be incapable of doing lol.
So..... Exactly what youre doing but worse because there's actually tangible proof for this?
What tangible proof? I am merely stating that if it wasn't shown the default assumption is to doubt and be skeptical not sure what you don't understand.
I don't really give a damn what it is, you're spouting nonsense about MIH effecting GER, when every piece of info that's been given on the subject says he'd be uneffected.
You're making this claim out of ignorance of not even understanding what MIH does to begin with, effecting him, something you don't actually know because we aren't even shown him effected, and stating as fact he must've been, ignoring every caveat or detail, and it's legit obnoxious.
There's no reason to get so heated over a versus thread, I will state it again. Prove that GER was not affected by MIH's universe reset, until you do so I will continue to believe it was as there is nothing that goes against that.
You want to argue this? Prove he was effected, I want a statement, a showing, if you can't do so, drop it.
I'm not a Jojo supporter, that is in fact your job since you're rooting for him. I'm simply asking for you to prove my question wrong with any form of tangible evidence from the anime or manga. If you can't do so then take your own advice lol.
Yeah, he was, after RTZ kicked in.
Did you ignore the whole scene before that point where he wasn't?
That literally is what I was referring to, there's no need to be this obnoxious.
It does because you're making claims based on headcanon conjecture with no proof behind it.

Does Gio even still have GER at that point? Can you prove that? If not you can't even get this argument off the ground.
Was GER effected by MIH? If so show me.
Do we know why he didn't do anything? No? Then why claim it as such.
In such a case, why is it in every media they interact GER is uneffected by MIH?
Why does GER still have statements, parallel to MIH even, like his ass is a few pages over, stating RTZ effects everything in verse and turns it to nothing still?
Why this, why that.

Your argument isn't an argument, it's you using legit headcanon where every unknown has to be a very specific thing for you to have a point, while also ignoring everything that goes against said point explicitly.
Once again, as a supporter and person who is rooting for Giorno it is your job to provide that evidence. I'm not a supporter of the verse, and yes you are correct. My argument is not an argument, because I'm asking for you to provide proof to support your claims which is now the 7th or 8th time I've asked that.
It legit doesn't. You don't understand because you don't even know what MIH does. MIH literally doesn't effect anyone, if it did, everyone would be fast too and functionally nothing would happen.
MIH also doesn't harm anyone.
This is a blatant misinterpretation of how the ability functions, it does indeed affect people. Once again, I never said it harmed anyone and in fact used that exact point to show that so long as you don't target Giorno or directly affect him RTZ seemingly won't activate.
Because that's how this wiki works?
Can RTZ negate 4D uni scale causality manip? Yes? Ok so it can effect literally this too.
It doesn't matter if he's versatile with it, it's the same ability that RTZ can passively negate just fine.
Not how it works. They are 2 different forms of causality manip, please use your eyes and read even if it might be seemingly difficult.
Um yes...it is NEP interaction...what exactly are you even saying here? That's what I said.
This tells me you aren't actually READING the profiles because goddamn.
Cool, you haven't read the profiles either because goddamn.
It's above something far, far, greater? We don't mention it being above Sex Pistols either because why would we? It on screen nulls a High 3-A 4D ability, which IS accepted btw

Hence why Diavolo has High 3-A ED.
It's not far, far, greater. They are different abilities with 2 different uses, also no one is arguing Diavolo isn't H3A.
 
Why? MIH doesn't effect anyone, that's the whole point.
No that's completely unrelated, and MIH does in fact affect people. Just not in a conventional way.
You straight up said GER wouldn't exist because of the Uni Reset.
Ok and? That doesn't have anything to do with me saying MIH "kills people".
We have multiple pieces of media showing GER being unphased my Time Accel, explicitly uneffected by the reset, and is effectively immortal.
We are told RTZ will negate every ability in verse, post Part 6 mind you.
Evidence?
What is shown? We're not shown ANYTHING is the problem. You're taking an unknown and absence of evidence ad twisting it to suit an agenda, meanwhile what's actually been shown or stated, goes against your claim and you're acting like you have a point. You don't, prove GER is even a thing still in Part 6, prove he was effected, prove that Araki didn't just not do anything because of PIS bullshit because writing it in would be actually braindead narratively, prove why all these direct statements or even direct showings in games, novels, and more somehow don't implicate the exact opposite as if GER vs MIH isn't a popular topic that they're well aware of and had answered in a bunch of things elsewhere to go "yeah he wasnt in the manga, but GER wouldnt be phased and would curb him lol".
Precisely, we aren't shown anything. If we are not shown RTZ activating during the uni reset then the natural assumption is GER was affected. If it was affected because MIH doesn't inherently target a person that still proves as a way to bypass it your circular logic is next level I'm genuinely impressed.
Your entire argument, is nothing but headcanon you can't even prove because you can't even get past the point of even confirming Gio had GER at that point, let alone the rest of stuff you'd need to confirm or even prove false somehow.
And as I have said multiple times, you are free to show evidence to go against my claims.
instead of wasting both our time, go make those CRT's you evidently must do as you don't want to use what's on the profiles.
Why are you so heated? Lol, and I don't understand why you keep mentioning making CRT's? I'm simply asking for you to provide evidence for these claims you've made.
 
You also have still not addressed the other contender's abilities, potency, etc. Genuinely how obnoxious can one get to not even do that which is a literal bare minimum in versus battles.
 
This still proves that there are ways to bypass RTZ, it's not a passive hax more like thought based not to mention it has to directly affect Giorno or GER itself. There is no point in going off topic about GER vs MIH, my intent was not to directly compare the 2 simply to prove that GER's RTZ is not as all encompassing as people make it seem.
How is it more like 'thought-based' when it's one of its few on screen feats show him reverting KC's kit when both GER and Giorno were not conscious nor even existing?
Plus the whole 'None' stats too (plus a databook statement which states that even if you're just in GER's presence you get reverted)
Not entirely, it's more so that GER had the ability to interact with Diavolo's ability itself.
What do you mean by this? GER reverted everything. It's not just him 'interacting with Diavolo's ability'
Doesn't mean anything, they aren't concepts. At least not currently, we're only sticking to what's accepted on the profiles right now.
Ehh I was moreso saying that as a throwaway line
In a more serious case, stands like WoU and LT should honestly have conceptual listed due the whole 'flow' shenanigans
(in which case RTZ would implicitly scale above the latter)
 
How is it more like 'thought-based' when it's one of its few on screen feats show him reverting KC's kit when both GER and Giorno were not conscious nor even existing?
Plus the whole 'None' stats too (plus a databook statement which states that even if you're just in GER's presence you get reverted)
It is not implicitly stated on the profile to be passive so I'm not entirely sure, it is also stated on the page that RTZ leaves GER unaffected by the ability in question which more so implies thought based rather than passive, could just be either or though.
What do you mean by this? GER reverted everything. It's not just him 'interacting with Diavolo's ability'
Well yes, I meant that as in RTZ specifically has the ability to interact with NEP. Which is listed and shown, also Diavolo's ability isn't listed as erasing the concept of causality. (He'd have some form of acaus 5 negation if that was the case, and he doesn't) not to mention it would be dubious how his own causality manip is able to function if he erased the concept of causality. It is also specifically listed as space time erasure for now.
Ehh I was moreso saying that as a throwaway line
In a more serious case, stands like WoU and LT should honestly have conceptual listed due the whole 'flow' shenanigans
(in which case RTZ would implicitly scale above the latter)
Well fair enough, but seeing as they currently aren't listed it isn't acknowledged for the time being.
 
Return to Zero is noted to be the 'ultimate', 'supreme', 'godlike' ability within JoJo's, capable of negating and returning 'everything' to nothing with stand stats that cannot be quantified by the measuring metrics

These statements come from early part 8 (apart from 'supreme ability' which is post part 8). There's more statements but these are the ones I just had on hand
Well I appreciate you actually showing something rather than typing up a storm like the other person, with no actual evidence. However, this doesn't exactly prove what they themself were arguing.
We have multiple pieces of media showing GER being unphased my Time Accel, explicitly uneffected by the reset, and is effectively immortal.
They were specifically saying the following.
 
kumagawas all fiction ability is buns he's terrible at using it
He gets better by EoS, that's why I used that version specifically. Even then, the things AF has been shown affecting is superior to what GER has been shown affecting with RTZ (save for the NEP interaction which Kumagawa doesn't have) as the closest thing is probably imagination manifestation, but that is kinda different.
 
It is not implicitly stated on the profile to be passive so I'm not entirely sure, it is also stated on the page that RTZ leaves GER unaffected by the ability in question which more so implies thought based rather than passive, could just be either or though.
That blog post is severely outdated and as such contains outdated information, don't pay too much attention to it. It was supposed to be removed quite some time ago but I guess no one got around to it (probably coz Giorno's profile is locked all the time but eh 🤷‍♂️)
 
If the blog post is actually outdated then Giorno's entire profile with GER is. In which case, assuming that is actually true this thread should be closed until it is updated/revised.
 
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