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A Very Abstract Dragon ball revision

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That doesn't really tell me much on them being abstract concepts for the energy reaching that far. Is that King Yemma scene have anything to do with the laws of the universe being twisted akin to Janemba or is it just some vague "I can't really do much" statement? Shenron doesn't talk about reality being warped in that clip, just that the evil dragons came to being because of the overuse of the dragon balls, also wasn't the dead "coming back to life" because Gero and Myuu opened a portal from Hell to Earth? Is there anything more to the positive energy beyond that one statement? Because it feels like the Toei stuff relies heavily on this one statement to argue for conceptual manipulation for the positive and negative energy.
 
That doesn't really tell me much on them being abstract concepts for the energy reaching that far. Is that King Yemma scene have anything to do with the laws of the universe being twisted akin to Janemba or is it just some vague "I can't really do much" statement? Shenron doesn't talk about reality being warped in that clip, just that the evil dragons came to being because of the overuse of the dragon balls, also wasn't the dead "coming back to life" because Gero and Myuu opened a portal from Hell to Earth? Is there anything more to the positive energy beyond that one statement? Because it feels like the Toei stuff relies heavily on this one statement to argue for conceptual manipulation for the positive and negative energy.
I mean we know that negative energy is born from the very distortion of the laws of the nature/universe,Yenma says he wasn't able to do anything and was unable to use his power now we know yenma is capable of controlling the laws of the afterlife and we later see it is dragon ball power that is affecting him the said power causes distortion into natural order of the universe so yes the dragon ball power here is preety much messing the laws of universe/nature itself to prevent yenma from interfering and making yenma unable to use his power as we know the one who preety much controls the laws of afterlife so it is more so capable of doing what janemba was doing

Again with negative energy we can see how increase in negative energy can lay waste to the entire universe/destroying it to the point that not Even kaioshin realm is safe from it not to mention the said energy very much is responsible for the distortion of the natural order

On other hand positive energy is capable of neutralizing it cause it is justice itself or what nature should be
 
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Just gonna ask, would you be willing to make the voting tally clearer? It's kinda hard to see what's currently agreed on.

Basically, have the agreements in the agree section, and the disagreements in the disagree section, instead of the entire thing being in the agree section.
Yeah sorry about that
 
That doesn't really tell me much on them being abstract concepts for the energy reaching that far. Is that King Yemma scene have anything to do with the laws of the universe being twisted akin to Janemba or is it just some vague "I can't really do much" statement? Shenron doesn't talk about reality being warped in that clip, just that the evil dragons came to being because of the overuse of the dragon balls, also wasn't the dead "coming back to life" because Gero and Myuu opened a portal from Hell to Earth? Is there anything more to the positive energy beyond that one statement? Because it feels like the Toei stuff relies heavily on this one statement to argue for conceptual manipulation for the positive and negative energy.
huh?, the clip said:

Shenron: Do you understand why the Evil Dragons appeared, yes?
Goku: Yeah
Shenron: This World and the Next World becoming one, as well as the dead returning to life....
Goku: Sure enough, that was also because the Dragon Balls had gone funny
Shenron: It seem that you have relied too heavily upon the power of the Dragon Balls

literally, Goku stated due to the dragon balls gone funny, making the Living Universe (This World in contexts) and the Afterlife (The Next World) mixing into one, that pretty much reality warping. We also know evil dragon born from negative energy, dragon balls gone funny mean negative energy, this mean negative energy literally cause two worlds mixing into one. Shenron also double down on this fact by saying Goku (and his friends) have relied too heavily upon the power of the Dragon Balls

also negative energy, or minus energy is stated to be evil power/evil energy like janemba's power, also both powers actually mess with both worlds, allowing the death coming back to life, and King Yemma couldn't do anything despite he has power govern the laws of the Afterlife

also wasn't the dead "coming back to life" because Gero and Myuu opened a portal from Hell to Earth
No, because
1. The clip literally stated it is due to dragon balls gone funny, referring to negative energy
2. Gero and Myuu didn't open the portal, it is Hell Fighter 17 who opened the portal because of the link between him and Android 17, but nothing happened, he did that just to move to Earth so he could fuse with Android 17 into Super Android 17. Later Dende and Piccolo also open another portal to Earth, specific location is the Lookout allowing Goku to come back to Earth to deal with Super Android 17, nothing happen at all, couldn't find the Dende and Piccolo clip cause i forgot the episode though
 
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Anyway, i updated my sandbox, removed the dualities part cause two mods rejected it, remove the like CM type 1 in Toei section cause the Omega Shenron argument was too much of an assumption, other than that is more new arguments with scans in case newcomers don't want to read the thread
 
I agree. Give Deku conceptual manipulation next.

''Laws of nature'' is literally meaningless and it doesn't necessarily mean it's something conceptual/platonic, it can mean many different things. At best it can mean the laws of the universe here.

What kind of false analogy fallacy is this? Bruh.
 
@Killerdrone123 That Fusion Reborn clip Yemma literally tells us the laws between the other world and human world are breaking down, he doesn't remotely say anything like that with Goku being stuck in hell so the comparison doesn't really hold up here. Ok, bring disorder to nature, which involves evil dragons that want to destroy the worlds. The evil dragons aren't literally distorting the fabric of reality, they're just destroying the universe. Again what about this remotely talks about Evil being a concept that exists in the Dragon Ball verse? This doesn't sound any different than the past times people push for Concept hax just because "evil" is stated to be a thing in the world.

Ok, the negative energy can destroy the universe, so can anyone that's powerful enough to do that, we don't automatically assume that's conceptual in nature just because it can threaten the universe. The only thing here that's remotely mentioned in some "conceptual" energy stuff is positive and negative energy combining becomes 0, which is no different than how subatomic particles like protons and electrons behave with one another.

@Vietthai96 Do you have any other concrete evidence the evil power from Janemba is meant to be the exact same as the ones the shadow dragons are using? Because the applications of the two are completely different from one another. Janemba is literally distorting the laws of the universe and actually warping reality to do all of the insane stuff he does in the movies, the Shadow Dragons do nothing like this and instead try to corrode the universe and as a result destroy them. Them just having the same name isn't something I'd buy and sounds more like a name fallacy than anything unless you have anything that states the energy of the shadow dragons and the energy Janemba has are one and the same.

BTW again, is that one translation text the only thing we remotely got for the positive and negative energy relationship? Because for something like conceptual manipulation you're gonna need either a lot more evidence or more explicit statements than a random guide text that talks about gogeta having positive energy.
 
@Killerdrone123 That Fusion Reborn clip Yemma literally tells us the laws between the other world and human world are breaking down, he doesn't remotely say anything like that with Goku being stuck in hell so the comparison doesn't really hold up here. Ok, bring disorder to nature, which involves evil dragons that want to destroy the worlds. The evil dragons aren't literally distorting the fabric of reality, they're just destroying the universe. Again what about this remotely talks about Evil being a concept that exists in the Dragon Ball verse? This doesn't sound any different than the past times people push for Concept hax just because "evil" is stated to be a thing in the world.
I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees, here. The reason Yemma's statement is important is because the Negative Energy is blocking his control over the Laws of the Afterlife, the same thing Janemba does. It's Yemma's power that maintains order and controls the Laws of the Afterlife, and he decides where people go. While he can't decide to put Goku back, he can move Piccolo, and when he does Piccolo's position in reality literally alters (his halo vanishes) and he's teleported into Hell. If Janemba is considered capable of his feats over "breaking down the Laws of Afterlife (because it's blocking Yemma from using his powers over the Next World)," Negative Energy "blocking Yemma's power (his Control over the Laws of the Afterlife)," should be mostly the same.

Edit: Also, it's like surprisingly consistent that Evil in high quantities can **** with Space and Time in Dragon Ball. You have Janemba, you have Baby's Revenge Death Ball being capable of messing with Space-Time due to "The Force of his Evil," and you have the Negative Karma of the Dragon Balls.
 
@Killerdrone123 That Fusion Reborn clip Yemma literally tells us the laws between the other world and human world are breaking down, he doesn't remotely say anything like that with Goku being stuck in hell so the comparison doesn't really hold up here. Ok, bring disorder to nature, which involves evil dragons that want to destroy the worlds. The evil dragons aren't literally distorting the fabric of reality, they're just destroying the universe. Again what about this remotely talks about Evil being a concept that exists in the Dragon Ball verse? This doesn't sound any different than the past times people push for Concept hax just because "evil" is stated to be a thing in the world.

Ok, the negative energy can destroy the universe, so can anyone that's powerful enough to do that, we don't automatically assume that's conceptual in nature just because it can threaten the universe. The only thing here that's remotely mentioned in some "conceptual" energy stuff is positive and negative energy combining becomes 0, which is no different than how subatomic particles like protons and electrons behave with one another.
Ok let's elaborate further on this you see in janemba scan how yenma says the rule of the otherworld is that death should preside in the afterlife and janemba was breaking the laws so death guys would return back to life

In Bojack movie we can see when Goku teleports back to earth from afterlife to save gohan while he is dead we see he immediately gets send back to afterlife similarly even in buu elder kai states that how it is not possible for Goku to go back to the living world as he is already dead

So this preety much confirms that afterlife laws don't let death stay in the living world for too long if someone does it the law takes affect and sense you back or never let them ever go back to living universe this preety much is the law of the world and otherworld

Now as we see the case in gt shenron preety much confirms that afterlife and living world becoming one was because of negative energy and death guys came back to the world of the living meaning the db preety much messed with this whole law of death not staying in living world for long/never returning/death guys presiding in afterlife law and did it in a way so that the dead beings in afterlife can stay in the living world it messing with the authority of yenma is further proof of this
 
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@RedReaper616 Where does it explicitly say that the laws of the afterlife are being messed with in the context of Goku being stuck in hell? Because the Janemba stuff is far more extreme in terms of what it can do compared to what's provided in GT for the Hell stuff. The baby stuff, is it in anyway talking about warping the fabric of space and time or is it just merely destroying it? Because those are two completely different things that can lead to two different interpretations. Plus I'm looking through Baby's profile and the most I'm seeing is just the vice shout from the manga being cross scaled to him, which doesn't tell me much on it being a conceptual force of nature and more just being able to open portals between dimensions.

@Killerdrone123 Is that just because "the laws of both worlds would be distorted"? Last time I checked with Goku he had a specific time limit to stay in the living world when he visited in the Buu Saga, and by the time he taught the fusion dance and showed off SSJ3 to Goten and Trunks, his time ran out so he had to leave. Plus I don't particularly see how this is tied to positive and negative energy being conceptual forces of nature that binds the universe since again, the only description being used to argue conceptual stuff is positive and negative energy being a thing, and gogeta having a lot of it, and the gogeta example is literally just no different from how Protons and Electrons behave with each other.
 
@Killerdrone123 Is that just because "the laws of both worlds would be distorted"? Last time I checked with Goku he had a specific time limit to stay in the living world when he visited in the Buu Saga, and by the time he taught the fusion dance and showed off SSJ3 to Goten and Trunks, his time ran out so he had to leave.
That is an exception, not a rule. Similar to how Vegeta was giving a similar exception just to help fight Buu and otherwise would not have been given that. The reason "he had to leave" is precisely due to these laws. And the reason he can't return even if he wanted to (he clearly wants to help Gohan) is also due to said laws. Also building on the Vegeta example, it is actually King Enma who grants that exception himself and also this.
 
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@RedReaper616 Where does it explicitly say that the laws of the afterlife are being messed with in the context of Goku being stuck in hell?
Again, that's explicitly what you do when you neg Yemma's power, because Yemma's power is control over the Laws of the Afterlife.

I don't know how much more simple I can make it.

Yemma's Power = Control over the Laws of the Afterlife.

Thus, when you Neg him in any context, the Afterlife goes haywire to some degree and you are directly negging these Laws.
The Baby stuff, is it in anyway talking about warping the fabric of space and time or is it just merely destroying it? Because those are two completely different things that can lead to two different interpretations. Plus I'm looking through Baby's profile and the most I'm seeing is just the vice shout from the manga being cross scaled to him, which doesn't tell me much on it being a conceptual force of nature and more just being able to open portals between dimensions.
The point with Baby was mostly an afterthought, but here you go. (It's in the Possessing Vegeta Section). The attack warped the Instant Transmission Subspace, which pushed Kibito and sent GT Goku to Sugoroku Space. That's impressive because the IT Subspace is a place that "transcends time" (explaining how Goku can travel between places "instantly/in zero time," as he is actually moving in a dimension that transcends it) and part of a larger Subspace with "no concept of Space or Time." (All Subspaces are, like the RoSaT or Sugoroku Space). Now, I don't think Baby's ability is conceptual or anything. I just found it funny how consistently Evil has been stated to **** with Space-Time in Dragon Ball.
@Killerdrone123 Is that just because "the laws of both worlds would be distorted"? Last time I checked with Goku he had a specific time limit to stay in the living world when he visited in the Buu Saga, and by the time he taught the fusion dance and showed off SSJ3 to Goten and Trunks, his time ran out so he had to leave. Plus I don't particularly see how this is tied to positive and negative energy being conceptual forces of nature that binds the universe since again, the only description being used to argue conceptual stuff is positive and negative energy being a thing, and gogeta having a lot of it, and the gogeta example is literally just no different from how Protons and Electrons behave with each other.
Gogeta negs it by being "Proton" in the sense he has the Energy that restores the Natural World, though? That is to say, you have it a bit backwards. It's not that he's Positive and THUS he cancels it out because he hits an Electron. It's that by his Energy rectifies Distortion (via Embodying Virtue), which in itself MAKES his energy positive.
 
I've always wondered why Executor doesn't have the translation helper role.
Translation Helper is a staff role that requires time, consistency, and abilities far more than I can give. All I do is share what I know when I think it can be meaningful for something, but nothing more.

About the content in the blog, the translations aren't really wrong for what matters here.

Something I might want to correct is this notion that "you can only stick with one translation". I mean, I think that if you have a bad translation and a good translation, you should go with the good one, but having two translations using different word choices isn't wrong. It seems the same scene was used in a Sailor Moon revision, one that said "possibilities" and another one "potential", but it really isn't a problem with the scans. Words can mean multiple things, and multiple things with different words in one language can have a single one in another language, and vice versa (A fun YouTube short to illustrate this). And likewise, there's no need for an outside translation to keep notes on our very specific terminology. Always good to remember that a work has a foundation on itself, and it's our job to make the adaptation to fit with our system; it's a work from our side, not theirs. All we need to do is have the proper literacy to take notice of the most likely intended meaning and see where, on its own, it fits with our system.

If I were to comment on something translation-wise, it got some stuff wrong (Like a ブ instead of a プ, which means that it says Blus Energy instead of Plus Energy), I can understand if the Japanese text was extracted just using OCR technology. But the actual translated text is basically the same; it says that Minus Energy is created out of the distortion of the laws of nature, while Plus Energy represents Nature's intended form, the power of justice.

About the Janemba/Zamasu stuff, it's mostly fine as well.

The terms in general for Janemba are

邪心 = Wicked/Evil Heart/Spirit

邪念 = Wicked/Evil Thought/Idea

悪の心 = Heart/Spirit of Evil/Wickedness

悪の気 = Ki of Evil/Wickedness

悪の化身 = Embodiment/Personification of Evil/Wickedness

I put various valid interpretations of some of the kanji above, but I think anyone here can understand what the general intent is.

I guess the main topics of discussion are:

"心" (kokoro) usually translates to "heart", but it is just as usual to think of it as "mind", "spirit", or even "feelings". Or more generally, the "心" usually represents the source of your state of feelings in yourself, the basis of human ability to think, etc. If you check this page, you can see how this Kanji is a radical for various words that carry the idea of an emotion or mental activity in general (Including that for Evil, Thinking, Love, etc)

"念" (Nen) is actually one of them, it's made of the radicals 今 (Now) and 心 (Heart), and so you can understand it as "your current state of mind" (In Buddhism, it was used to signify something you need to keep in your mind and never forget).

Maybe something that could be contested is pushing it to be just "idea", when just saying "evil thoughts" or "evil feelings" work just as well (And I would say it flows more naturally, but this is just my preference).

I think that we can all agree that the intended meaning for Janemba is for it to represent the evil thoughts and desires that every spirit had and needed to be cleansed, but merged together until it became Janemba (Or crystallized as one of the scans said).

This is part of the work itself. Janemba is the manifestation of the evil thoughts that existed in dead spirits. Similarly, Zamasu released his own thoughts from his body and tried to merge the universe with it to become the very order.

What comes after this is the whole "conceptual manipulation/abstract existence" stuff.

Can something that is considered a thought be an abstract existence? what kind of details are needed to fit with that? This is the kind of stuff that will need to be discussed.
 
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@MeiouHades Thanks for the clarification, however I don't really see how the whole afterlife rules are relevant to positive and negative energy being literal conceptual powers in the series.

@RedReaper616 Ok, so again what part of the afterlife stuff is relevant to positive and negative energy being conceptual powers?

The Baby clip literally talks about how there's "so much force" that it sent him to a different dimension. He's not warping reality or anything, that's just him being so strong he threw Goku to another dimension. By that logic that's like saying Ki can have some effect on reality thanks to Broly and Gogeta's dimensional clashes in the movie so it has to be something conceptual since it can affect reality.

Natural world, like the normal universe where life lives normally. This doesn't remotely tell me anything on the positive and minus energy being tied to concepts, plus the example you're using is Gogeta where he's cancelling out negative energy with positive energy. The scans from GT literally has him saying that combining positive with a minus equals 0, which is how subatomic particles work with protons and electrons cancelling each other out. I'm still asking if you have anything else that further expands on what is the nature of positive and negative energy, because a random guidebook being used as the core basis for a buff for the toei stuff looks like a stretch to me.
 
Abstract Existence (Type 2 [Ideas, Intents, Thoughts]; Is stated to be the crystallization of Evil Intent and the embodiment of Evil Ideas that is a part of the entire Afterlife. Is also stated to be a being made from evil ideas released from the Soul Cleansing Machine)
This is on Janemba's profile. If the Evil energy he is reliant on is already accepted as being abstract (otherwise he wouldn't have AE2) and the blog says that negative energy is stated to be said evil energy, then negative energy would be abstract by consequence, no?
As I see it, negative energy being evil energy + both being able to affect the Afterlife seems strong enough to suggest they have the same nature.
 
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@MeiouHades Thanks for the clarification, however I don't really see how the whole afterlife rules are relevant to positive and negative energy being literal conceptual powers in the series.
I understand, I was just clarifying to you that the laws of the Afterlife are in fact very real and have very real effects throughout the series.
 
@RedReaper616 Ok, so again what part of the afterlife stuff is relevant to positive and negative energy being conceptual powers?
I’ve only ever discussed the Laws of the Afterlife. I specifically was pointing out how you kept misunderstanding how they work in relevance to Yemma.
The Baby clip literally talks about how there's "so much force" that it sent him to a different dimension. He's not warping reality or anything, that's just him being so strong he threw Goku to another dimension. By that logic that's like saying Ki can have some effect on reality thanks to Broly and Gogeta's dimensional clashes in the movie so it has to be something conceptual since it can affect reality.
He warped the fabric of the dimension with the Force of his Evil, yes. It’s also not conceptual, yes. I literally said that. Again, I literally said I mentioned it as an afterthought mostly because I found it funny how consistently evil fudges with space and time.
Natural world, like the normal universe where life lives normally.
It’s saying that in reference to the Distortion of Laws in the Natural World, not a location. Like it’s specifically “The way THINGS SHOULD BE.”
The scans from GT literally has him saying that combining positive with a minus equals 0, which is how subatomic particles work with protons and electrons cancelling each other out.
This doesn’t change anything? The statement is quite clear—Gogeta’s nature of embodying the natural and un-distorted world/virtue is what makes his energy Positive. Not the vice versa. The fact it cancels out into 0 isn’t in question—It’s the how and why.

And—Again—I’ve not discussed concept stuff. I’m merely pointing out flaws in your understanding, to better inform you.
 
I just woke up and went to work, so probably i couldn't link scans with my arguments cause using phone to comment on vsbw is suck nowadays (the site freeze most of the time i visit on phone)

Like literally, Negative Energy was stated directly in GT Perfect File to be the distortion of the laws of nature. And Dragon Balls, having Negative Energy is again stated to be able to hurl cosmic order into chaos and bring disorder to natural order. Now we have statements

Now we also have back up feats to support that which already in my updated sandbox


Them just having the same name isn't something I'd buy and sounds more like a name fallacy than anything unless you have anything that states the energy of the shadow dragons and the energy Janemba has are one and the same
1. They doesn't really have the same name, one is Negative Energy, other is called Evil Energy. The part about them all being called Evil Power referring to their nature to be Evil power/energy, this isn't the case where Vegeta called his ki blast Big Bang Attack or Goku called his ki beam Kamehameha

2. It is only name fallacy if i just show "name" thing only, there are backed up feats that support the notion of both of them being the same kind of energy. It is only "name fallacy" when you separate and isolate it without looking at backed up evidences. It is literally stated and show in both clips that due to Negative Energy, both Afterlife and the Living Universe is mixing into one world, the dead returning to life, Yemma can't use his power despite he can control everything in Afterlife, we already show that due to the laws of the Afterlife, the dead shouldn't return to the life yet it does mean the laws are breaking, we also have Afterlife is a completely different reality compare to Living Universe and have different laws and yet both world mixing into one. The corroding universe stuffs is supporting arguments

At this point, literally we both have statements and feats to back up, i don't think everything need to be spelled out that too specific and direct (of course it is good if things does like that), that why explanation formed from the collection of statements and feats can be used, and out site have been always doing it.

Anyway, while you are free to argue and think whatever you want, the argument you have can be simplified into
1. It isn't namedrop specific stuffs you want
2. Separating and isolating statements, make them lost their contexts

Ngl here bro but in this situation, our case is stronger
 
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I would like some input from translation helpers given someone in comments mentioned something about translations.
We have @Executor_N0 verified our translation
Translation Helper is a staff role that requires time, consistency, and abilities far more than I can give. All I do is share what I know when I think it can be meaningful for something, but nothing more.

About the content in the blog, the translations aren't really wrong for what matters here.

Something I might want to correct is this notion that "you can only stick with one translation". I mean, I think that if you have a bad translation and a good translation, you should go with the good one, but having two translations using different word choices isn't wrong. It seems the same scene was used in a Sailor Moon revision, one that said "possibilities" and another one "potential", but it really isn't a problem with the scans. Words can mean multiple things, and multiple things with different words in one language can have a single one in another language, and vice versa (A fun YouTube short to illustrate this). And likewise, there's no need for an outside translation to keep notes on our very specific terminology. Always good to remember that a work has a foundation on itself, and it's our job to make the adaptation to fit with our system; it's a work from our side, not theirs. All we need to do is have the proper literacy to take notice of the most likely intended meaning and see where, on its own, it fits with our system.

If I were to comment on something translation-wise, it got some stuff wrong (Like a ブ instead of a プ, which means that it says Blus Energy instead of Plus Energy), I can understand if the Japanese text was extracted just using OCR technology. But the actual translated text is basically the same; it says that Minus Energy is created out of the distortion of the laws of nature, while Plus Energy represents Nature's intended form, the power of justice.

About the Janemba/Zamasu stuff, it's mostly fine as well.

The terms in general for Janemba are

邪心 = Wicked/Evil Heart/Spirit

邪念 = Wicked/Evil Thought/Idea

悪の心 = Heart/Spirit of Evil/Wickedness

悪の気 = Ki of Evil/Wickedness

悪の化身 = Embodiment/Personification of Evil/Wickedness

I put various valid interpretations of some of the kanji above, but I think anyone here can understand what the general intent is.

I guess the main topics of discussion are:

"心" (kokoro) usually translates to "heart", but it is just as usual to think of it as "mind", "spirit", or even "feelings". Or more generally, the "心" usually represents the source of your state of feelings in yourself, the basis of human ability to think, etc. If you check this page, you can see how this Kanji is a radical for various words that carry the idea of an emotion or mental activity in general (Including that for Evil, Thinking, Love, etc)

"念" (Nen) is actually one of them, it's made of the radicals 今 (Now) and 心 (Heart), and so you can understand it as "your current state of mind" (In Buddhism, it was used to signify something you need to keep in your mind and never forget).

Maybe something that could be contested is pushing it to be just "idea", when just saying "evil thoughts" or "evil feelings" work just as well (And I would say it flows more naturally, but this is just my preference).

I think that we can all agree that the intended meaning for Janemba is for it to represent the evil thoughts and desires that every spirit had and needed to be cleansed, but merged together until it became Janemba (Or crystallized as one of the scans said).

This is part of the work itself. Janemba is the manifestation of the evil thoughts that existed in dead spirits. Similarly, Zamasu released his own thoughts from his body and tried to merge the universe with it to become the very order.

What comes after this is the whole "conceptual manipulation/abstract existence" stuff.

Can something that is considered a thought be an abstract existence? what kind of details are needed to fit with that? This is the kind of stuff that will need to be discussed.
Massive thank to you Executor
 
@MeiouHades fair enough.

@RedReaper616 If you're not discussing conceptual stuff then is this mostly just trying to clarify the supporting points? Because again my main issue with trying to argue that these energies being conceptual in nature is beyond the random feats of warping dimensions or whatever, the only thing that remotely implies these energies being concepts is that negative and positive energy exists, which that in of itself doesn't say much on them being literal concepts that govern reality.

@Vietthai96 The blog is trying to combine stuff like Janemba's energy being evil in nature from the movies to the shadow dragon's ki being evil/negative, so they'd just by default be the same thing without much evidence that states these energies are one and the same. If your case is stronger then why is the only evidence you have on these different energies based on a random GT guidebook about Omega vs Gogeta and not a bunch of other stuff that flat out talks about these energies being conceptual forces of nature in the series? You can say your case is stronger but that means nothing in a vacuum.
 
The scope isn’t just the planets they’re on but it also reaches the Kaioshin Realm. For negative energy he does affect reality in a similar way to Janemba, as shown here we see that King Yenma is unable to use his powers and states there’s a power that’s affecting him. Then, it pans to the cracked dragon balls and we can see how it’s affecting the living world and afterlife. Shenron tells us that these effects on reality happened because the dragon balls went haywire (the negative energy), and caused all of this. That’s why the dead were also coming back to life. Then, positive energy scales to that and can undo it, and also governs reality. Positive energy is directly stated to be the form of the ideal world, and manifests justice, and it’s explained that’s why it can undo the effects of negative energy.
So reality warping on 2C scales
 
I can see there being a sort of law/evil dichotomy between positive [plus] and negative [minus] energy. That much has been made crystal clear. However, I remain unconvinced that this is the same as Evil Energy as portrayed in Fusion Reborn.

As I understand it, Fusion Reborn was released March 4, 1995[1], and GT would soon follow a year later in 1996[2]. While the two forms of energy share thematic similarities, it seems to be a post hoc assumption to equate Evil Energy from Fusion Reborn with Minus Energy from GT. This is especially apparent given the lack of any explicit counterpart to Positive Energy in Fusion Reborn, though that point is somewhat tangential.

Like Glass, I also don’t believe Evil Energy and Minus Energy are canonically the same. They resemble one another, certainly, but similarity by itself does not imply a 1-to-1 equivalence. If anything, it shows Toei’s recurring motif of an energy that serves as an antithesis to good. But again has there ever been an official statement connecting these two? If not, I do not think that these should be used to support (for example) Fusion Reborn Gogeta having the same positive/negative energy system as in GT. That would be ridiculous.

In that light, the potential argument of “we treat them as part of Toei” seems less like solid reasoning and more like an oversight at best and a loophole at worst.
 
On the point about Conceptual Manipulation (which seems to have been dropped), I also think that Positive and Negative energy is analogous to Law Manipulation at the very least.
 
@RedReaper616 If you're not discussing conceptual stuff then is this mostly just trying to clarify the supporting points? Because again my main issue with trying to argue that these energies being conceptual in nature is beyond the random feats of warping dimensions or whatever, the only thing that remotely implies these energies being concepts is that negative and positive energy exists, which that in of itself doesn't say much on them being literal concepts that govern reality.
Yes.
 
Huh. Neat.

Anyways, I think I can see Positive Energy being conceptual by being justice/righteousness & nature itself. Negative Energy on the other hand seems eerily similar to Janemba's Evil Ki, at least in the part of screwing over laws & King Yemma. At worst, I see there's clear proof of Positive & Negative Energy being tied to laws and shit.
 
Alright, looking through the Heroes stuff. I'm not convinced with these arguments.

All of the Negative Energy/Dark Ki/Dark Factor doesn't mention anything about these powers being conceptual in nature, just that they distort reality and that the shadow dragons can exist so long as the dragon balls exist. That's just type 8 immortality at best, that doesn't remotely say anything about their powers being conceptual.

The Evil section in general I seriously have to question why is this being pushed for again when this was pushed for and rejected, alongside the fact that I don't see anything new here that remotely argues this being a concept. The last thread that talked about this we had discussed that being abstract doesn't make you a concept in here. So all of the scans of Janemba being an incarnation of evil doesn't mean much in the context of conceptual hax.

Ok why are we using Zamasu again as an argument for concept? Are we going to ignore the fact that this scan here is misusing the kanji for concept when that's not the kanji for concepts, the kanji 念 only translates to sense, idea, thought and feeling. The actual kanji for concept is 概念. You're missing that first kanji that's needed to remotely argue Zamasu is meant to be an abstract concept. This is just his thoughts merging into the universe so none of this is grounds for concept since you're misusing the kanji and twisting the meaning here. Everything else about being Justice and Order doesn't tell me much since the only form of elaboration we're given is he's becoming one with the Universe itself, which makes sense given that's literally what happened in the end. The note at the end doesn't remotely explain why using the individual kanji for thought can be used as concept when the japanese language has an actual set of kanjis that flat out translates to concept, so this is just more stretching the definition of a word to argue concept hax here.

I disagree with concept hax for Heroes as well. Virtually everything I'm seeing here is nothing new compared to the last time this was pushed for, and the fact we're still twisting the meaning of concept in Japanese here is baffling to me.
 
Alright, looking through the Heroes stuff. I'm not convinced with these arguments.

All of the Negative Energy/Dark Ki/Dark Factor doesn't mention anything about these powers being conceptual in nature, just that they distort reality and that the shadow dragons can exist so long as the dragon balls exist. That's just type 8 immortality at best, that doesn't remotely say anything about their powers being conceptual.

The Evil section in general I seriously have to question why is this being pushed for again when this was pushed for and rejected, alongside the fact that I don't see anything new here that remotely argues this being a concept. The last thread that talked about this we had discussed that being abstract doesn't make you a concept in here. So all of the scans of Janemba being an incarnation of evil doesn't mean much in the context of conceptual hax.

Ok why are we using Zamasu again as an argument for concept? Are we going to ignore the fact that this scan here is misusing the kanji for concept when that's not the kanji for concepts, the kanji 念 only translates to sense, idea, thought and feeling. The actual kanji for concept is 概念. You're missing that first kanji that's needed to remotely argue Zamasu is meant to be an abstract concept. This is just his thoughts merging into the universe so none of this is grounds for concept since you're misusing the kanji and twisting the meaning here. Everything else about being Justice and Order doesn't tell me much since the only form of elaboration we're given is he's becoming one with the Universe itself, which makes sense given that's literally what happened in the end. The note at the end doesn't remotely explain why using the individual kanji for thought can be used as concept when the japanese language has an actual set of kanjis that flat out translates to concept, so this is just more stretching the definition of a word to argue concept hax here.

I disagree with concept hax for Heroes as well. Virtually everything I'm seeing here is nothing new compared to the last time this was pushed for, and the fact we're still twisting the meaning of concept in Japanese here is baffling to me.
What is it discussed or was it accepted that abstract=/=conceptual?

Because you linked to a post from a non mod user from a thread three years ago making a claim without quoting any accepted requirements or showing the counter arguements for said claim the user made.

I won't touch on the IZ stuff but this is mind blowing this is being linked as evidence when it's a link to some person's opinion minus the counter arguements or quite literally any reference to any accepted standards or requirements.

You just linked someone's opinion. That's not evidence or any sort precedence.
 
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