A Very Abstract Dragon ball revision

[Killerdrone123]

Hello Everyone in this thread I am going to propose Few abilities that's should added to DB(Toei) and DB(Games)

So here is the blog

Vietthai96/sandbox15

vsbattles.fandom.com

To summarise the above blog for those who are lazy to read

Dragon Ball (Toei)

Plus and Minus energy would get Conceptual manipulation(type 2, likely type 1)

Ki manipulation would also get NPI for said concepts as regular ki users are able to interact with plus and minus energy

Dragon Ball (Games)

Positive Energy/Plus Energy and Negative Energy/Minus Energy, Dark Ki, Janemba's Evil Energy, Dark Factor should get Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1)

Infinite Zamasu would get his Abstract Existence upgraded to Concept type 1

Now Time power should also get Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 as Time scrolls which are physical manifestation of time power are able to contain all of history within them which also include abstract/Conceptual energy like positive and negative energy

They are also able to contain and record Conceptual being like infinite zamasu who is the very abstract/Concept of justice itself and has positive energy to

Sealeas Who wanted to get rid of all of evil and reform physical reality without it to the point that evil can no longer exist stated that he needs to destroy Time scrolls to as simply nuking the entire existence won't work meaning time scroll can also record the said evil energy which is conceptual and can still have it even when the existence is destroyed.

Ki manipulation for games would also get NPI for said concepts

That's it' for now see you all in another thread

Agree:Oblivion_Of_The_Endless(Agrees with type 2 for toei,Fully agrees with Dragon ball games),DarkDragonMedeus(Agrees with DB games),ActuallySpaceMan42(agrees with possibly/likely CM for positive and negative energy,Agrees with CM type 2 for evil)

Neutral:

Disagree:Theglassman12,DarkDragonMedeus(disagrees with toei),ActuallySpaceMan42(Disagrees with infinite zamasu)

 

[Shar122]

Definitely agree

 

[TheNothing84]

Oh boy....

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Disagree.

The fact that your translations call this energy a consequence to events happening in the universe prove that they are not fundamental to reality.

If you destroy these energies what exactly is going to go away? They are reliant of phenomena in the universe to occur in the first place for it to exist. That’s the exact opposite of conceptual.

Also, not understanding the timescroll stuff. I was told that physical objects cannot be conceptual.

 

[Pluto321]

following

 

[Robo432343]

bro has done it

 

[Hasty12345]

Haven't read the whole blog yet but can we do something about the mini text above the positive and negative energy? It's not necessary, it's fairly intuitive plus/minus energies are the same as positive/negative.

 

[Vietthai96]

The fact that your translations call this energy a consequence to events happening in the universe prove that they are not fundamental to reality

??, consequense to what??, your argument make no sense cause Plus energy is directly stated to be laws of nature, justice and nature world itself and Minus energy is its opposition. Some users can harness its and cause whatever it is to the universe isn't anti-feats. By your logic, things like Dao or Essence should not qualify cause users can harness them

If you destroy these energies what exactly is going to go away? They are reliant of phenomena in the universe to occur in the first place for it to exist. That’s the exact opposite of conceptual

Look, you don't destroy the energies, you destroy the nature itself, its law, energies is what users can harness to do stuffs

Also, not understanding the timescroll stuff. I was told that physical objects cannot be conceptual.

Timescroll is just physical manifestation of time power, also we don't argue timescroll to be conceptual, we argues it capable of affecting and influencing conceptual stuffs, nothing disallow physical entity having power to manipulate concept, arguing a physical entity being conceptual =/= arguing physical being have power to manipulate concept

Haven't read the whole blog yet but can we do something about the mini text above the positive and negative energy? It's not necessary, it's fairly intuitive plus/minus energies are the same as positive/negative.

Well.. uhhhh....i thought it look cool

 

[Hasty12345]

Well.. uhhhh....i thought it look cool

It's cool in the first paragraph, but I think after that it's not necessary. That's just my opinion though, if others disagree I'm not going to throw a fit .

 

[Rutæhh]

Disagree.

The fact that your translations call this energy a consequence to events happening in the universe prove that they are not fundamental to reality.

If you destroy these energies what exactly is going to go away? They are reliant of phenomena in the universe to occur in the first place for it to exist. That’s the exact opposite of conceptual.

I have to agree with this interpretation

Also, not understanding the timescroll stuff. I was told that physical objects cannot be conceptual.

Yeah physical objects cant be conceptual in nature but what is inside it can.

Time scrolls seem to have more credence to having CM imo

 

[Killerdrone123]

Disagree.

The fact that your translations call this energy a consequence to events happening in the universe prove that they are not fundamental to reality.

So we are gonna ignore how positive energy was said to be nature itself/ideal natural world,force of justice/justice itself it isn't born from some consequences

Negative energy rises when positive energy decreases it is said to be distortion of natural law or opposite of natural law itself.

If you destroy these energies what exactly is going to go away? They are reliant of phenomena in the universe to occur in the first place for it to exist. That’s the exact opposite of conceptual.

There is literally whole paragraph explaining this how when positive energy decreases negative energy rises and can lay waste to the universe meaning increase in negative energy would destroy the said laws of nature/positive energy and the universe itself

Also, not understanding the timescroll stuff. I was told that physical objects cannot be conceptual.

Time energy is the one that would be conceptual as it can contain other abstract energies also we aren't arguing time scrolls to be conceptual just that they can manipulate concepts

 

[Robo432343]

am i tripping or are there 2 translation attempts for the same text

マイナスエネルギーは、DBの願い事の反作用で発生する。自然の法則をねじ曲げたことで生まれる負のエネルギーだ。これが異常増加すると邪悪龍が生まれる。ブラスエネルギーは自然のあるべき姿、つまりは正義のカだ。超4ゴジータはその体内にプラスエネルギーを持ちマイナスエネルギーを中和できる

you translated this 2 times

Negative energy is generated as a reaction to the Dragon Ball's wishes. It is a negative energy that is born from the distortion of the laws of nature. If this increases abnormally, an evil dragon will be born. Positive energy is the way nature should be, in other words, the force of justice. Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta has positive energy within his body that can neutralize negative energy.

Minus Energy is produced as a consequence of making wishes with the Dragon Balls, in opposition to the laws of nature. The imbalance generated leads to the creation of Negative Energy. As Negative Energy accumulates, Evil Dragon emerge. Plus Energy, on the other hand, is the form of an ideal natural world and embodies justice. In other words, it is the power of virtue/justice/righteousness. Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta has Plus Energy within his body, counteracting and neutralizing Minus Energy

or i think you forgot to show the japanese text for translation 2

 

[Killerdrone123]

am i tripping or are there 2 translation attempts for the same text


you translated this 2 times

There are two translations given for accuracy again meaning of both translation is still the same and main elements are preety much accurate and still the same.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So we are gonna ignore how positive energy was said to be nature itself/ideal natural world,force of justice/justice itself it isn't born from some consequences

Well no. It was said to be the way things should be. The ideal world should a world of justice

There is literally whole paragraph explaining this how when positive energy decreases negative energy rises

This is my point. Your scan directly says that negative energy increases do to evil wishes. Positive energy decreases due to the increase of the negative energy. Therefore positive energy is dependent on the actions of people in reality. It’s not fundamental. If it wore, people’s actions wouldn’t directly affect it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

There are two translations given for accuracy again meaning of both translation is still the same and main elements are preety much accurate and still the same.

Careful. I was reported for doing this. You should pick one translation only.

Anyways. Peace!

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well no. It was said to be the way things should be. The ideal world should a world of justice

Plus Energy, on the other hand, is the form of an ideal natural world and embodies justice. In other words, it is the power of virtue/justice/righteousness.

Where in the translation is it said that the ideal world should be world of justice

Rather it calls positive energy itself the ideal natural world and is justice itself

This is my point. Your scan directly says that negative energy increases do to evil wishes. Positive energy decreases due to the increase of the negative energy. Therefore positive energy is dependent on the actions of people in reality. It’s not fundamental. If it wore, people’s actions wouldn’t directly affect it.

No that is very weird claim to make just cause positive energy decreases when negative energy increases doesn't mean that positive energy is born from the consequences of people there is no evidence in the blog which says that

 

[Vietthai96]

Well no. It was said to be the way things should be. The ideal world should a world of justice

Are we forget the law stuffs???

This is my point. Your scan directly says that negative energy increases do to evil wishes. Positive energy decreases due to the increase of the negative energy. Therefore positive energy is dependent on the actions of people in reality. It’s not fundamental. If it wore, people’s actions wouldn’t directly affect it

This is just dragon ball stuffs, because dragon ball also contain both powers within it, people only use DB for wishes, do you truly read scan, argument and contexts or just pick up specific things to your liking??

Careful. I was reported for doing this. You should pick one translation only.

?, no?, both translation are the same with slightly different wording. From the report about you, you use two translation of the same scan to argue for two different things. We on the other hand, both translation is used to argue for the same thing

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Not sure if I agree with toei stuff tbh

 

[Hayato5652]

Alright, this is going to be exciting, I’m just here to get my doubts cleared, and I hope that’ll be the case.

Also, I haven’t read the blog yet, but I’ll definitely check it out if I get the time,
So if I’ve made any mistakes, please feel free to correct me.

VSBW Explanation:
Conceptual Manipulation Type 2:

Dependent Concepts: These are abstract concepts that govern all reality within their area of influence. They shape everything, and changing them either requires altering every object tied to the concept, or if manipulated directly, alters both the concept and all related objects.
These concepts exist simultaneously with and are bound to the objects they govern.
This means an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all of its related objects, restored by recreating a former object of that concept, or altered by changing all relevant objects across reality.
However, none of these count as true conceptual manipulation, they’re treated more like side effects or a domino effect.

Now, given all this:
Since Infinite Zamasu has abstract existence and embodies the concept of justice, shouldn't he be granted Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 instead?

Sure, this version of Zamasu appears in the Games,
But i don’t see any evidence that shows Zamasu is a concept completely independent from reality.

In other words, there’s no proof that he is a fully independent concept.

As for the rest of the suggestions, I don’t have any problem with them and I agree…
at least for now!

 

[denisnic55]

It feels right for the games but Toei? I dont know man....

 

[Robo432343]

both translation are the same with slightly different wording. From the report about you, you use two translation of the same scan to argue for two different things. We on the other hand, both translation is used to argue for the same thing

Are you sure we are allowed to use 2 translations for the same scan in the first place
If @Executor_N0 translated these or another staff it should be fine ig

 

[Huesito88]

It feels right for the games but Toei? I dont know man....

Idk Toei loves wanking there stuff, it does fall in line with said stuff

 

[Vietthai96]

Are you sure we are allowed to use 2 translations for the same scan in the first place

No?, 2 translations result in the same meaning, just slightly different wording, this happen alot of translation anyway, and i use both for a singular thing, not using 2 translations two argue for two different things

Alright, this is going to be exciting, I’m just here to get my doubts cleared, and I hope that’ll be the case.

Also, I haven’t read the blog yet, but I’ll definitely check it out if I get the time,
So if I’ve made any mistakes, please feel free to correct me.

VSBW Explanation:
Conceptual Manipulation Type 2:

Now, given all this:
Since Infinite Zamasu has abstract existence and embodies the concept of justice, shouldn't he be granted Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 instead?

Sure, this version of Zamasu appears in the Games,
But i don’t see any evidence that shows Zamasu is a concept completely independent from reality.

In other words, there’s no proof that he is a fully independent concept.

As for the rest of the suggestions, I don’t have any problem with them and I agree…
at least for now!

as i have explained, Zamasu Game is literal Positive Energy itself which in game multiverse i argue for the energy to be type 1

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Neutral on Toei for now, agree with games.

 

[Hasty12345]

The difference between this blog and what everyone is not so subtly referring to is @Vietthai96 is providing two translations of the same text for the same claim and not presenting one for a claim and the other for another.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The difference between this blog and what everyone is not so subtly referring to is @Vietthai96 is providing two translations of the same text for the same claim and not presenting one for a claim and the other for another.

“Positive energy is the way nature should be, in other words, the force of justice.”

“Plus Energy, on the other hand, is the form of an ideal natural world and embodies justice.”

These are completely different statements.

Also where are these translations even from?

 

[Killerdrone123]

“Positive energy is the way nature should be, in other words, the force of justice.”

“Plus Energy, on the other hand, is the form of an ideal natural world and embodies justice.”

These are completely different statements.

Also where are these translations even from?

They are literally affirming the same meaning that positive energy is nature itself and is justice/force of justice

We aksed some different translators we know if you are skeptical i don't mind if a wiki translator comes and translate that scan

 

[Kroneii1]

Well, when Trunks cut Zamasu in half there was some kind of light inside him, so I would agree with this.

 

[Hasty12345]

After reading the blog thoroughly, I think the Toei half is very solid and I agree that positive and negative energies are conceptual in nature. I'm not as knowledgeable on DBH so I won't comment on the conclusions drawn in that half of the blog.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

They are literally affirming the same meaning that positive energy is nature itself and is justice/force of justice

We aksed some different translators we know if you are skeptical i don't mind if a wiki translator comes and translate that scan

It would be ideal but you should also at least include screenshots of the translators’ messages.

 

[KaramcaS]

I've been waiting for someone to open this for a long time, I Agree with the OP

 

[DesuGoten]

I agree

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Careful. I was reported for doing this. You should pick one translation only.

Anyways. Peace!

 

[Hasty12345]

Yeah don’t.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Let's not drail the thread with memes shall we?

(agree with the proposals)

 

[Nami_Kami]

I agree. Give Deku conceptual manipulation next.

''Laws of nature'' is literally meaningless and it doesn't necessarily mean it's something conceptual/platonic, it can mean many different things. At best it can mean the laws of the universe here.

 

[SonGoku_9377]

Look good to me, I agree all.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree. Give Deku conceptual manipulation next.

''Laws of nature'' is literally meaningless and it doesn't necessarily mean it's something conceptual/platonic, it can mean many different things. At best it can mean the laws of the universe here.

Is this what not reading the blog looks like?

 

[Shar122]

I agree. Give Deku conceptual manipulation next.

''Laws of nature'' is literally meaningless and it doesn't necessarily mean it's something conceptual/platonic, it can mean many different things. At best it can mean the laws of the universe here.

Brother, we are not arguing for platonic concept here, you need to read the scans first before giving your judgment, also laws of physics is totally different from laws of nature, that is false equivalence.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Is this what not reading the blog looks like?

The blog is essentially ''positive energy is conceptual because it's nature itself'' and ''negative energy is born from distortions of the laws of physics''.

Not very convincing. And nature isn't an abstraction.