Below Of That Exists (Naruto Layers Addition)

[DavidTPPM]

his arrows are made of flames, so thier is no physical aspect to sasuke's attack.

That is simply not true. We see amaterasu can physically blast people away upon contact.

Also if we were to say that then that means blocking Sasukes amaterasu arrow is even easier as there's no physical force behind it. Meaning you nerf the rods from at least having the power to match his susanoo to not even having that.

His surppressing their powers by nullifing them into a certain state which was from tailed beast to thier cloak versions.

Why would you assume that? The Manga doesn't say anything even remotely close to that conclusion.

The manga says he's binding and restraining their power, "bottling it up". The way the manga explains it seems much more like they're reverting to lower forms as a result of Obito restricting their access to bijuu chakra rather than the opposite (which is what you're saying).

because if it was then it would have been explicitly stated to be sealing.

It is. It's said and again I quote as "binding", "retraining" and "bottling up". That's explicit description of sealing.
Meanwhile no statement even remotely implies power nullification.

His bottling thier power and nullifing ther already exsisting state to a lesser state from a fully transformed tailed beast state which should not be possible to do even with Hashirama's wood style.

That is just factually wrong. A Jinchurikis access to bijuu chakra is directly correlated to their transformation stage. Narutos seal weakening had boom slowly grow into further stages until Minato fixed it which reverted him to base.
Bee having his bijuu chakra drained reverted him from v2 to v1 cloak.

The edo Jinchurikis chakra being "bottled up" should very much effectively have the same result as those 2 things and revert them to a lower stage.

This is shown by how yamato said he could not turn 8 tails cloak naruto back to just regular naruto, even jiraiya sealing wouldn't work but the chains can do that easily

Doesn't that just make sense? The more power they have the more difficult it is to seal that power. That's why a weak sealing user like Yamato can't seal 8t Naruto but a strong sealing user like Minato could.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

That is simply not true. We see amaterasu can physically blast people away upon contact. Also if we were to say that then that means blocking Sasukes amaterasu arrow is even easier as there's no physical force behind it. Meaning you nerf the rods from at least having the power to match his susanoo to not even having that.

That was the reason it got accepted

Why would you assume that? The Manga doesn't say anything even remotely close to that conclusion.

The manga says he's binding and restraining their power, "bottling it up". The way the manga explains it seems much more like they're reverting to lower forms as a result of Obito restricting their access to bijuu chakra rather than the opposite (which is what you're saying). It is. It's said and again I quote as "binding", "retraining" and "bottling up". That's explicit description of sealing.
Meanwhile no statement even remotely implies power nullification.

I think your looking at this the wrong way David. as state by the wiki

"Power Nullification is the ability to nullify the powers and abilities of others, preventing or disabling their effects. The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character, but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic. In some cases, an ability can only be negated once it's been used or activated, but in others, powers can be nullified before they're even utilized. The effect may be temporary or permanent, and may be restricted by touch, or be something that the user can apply to any ability they see, or within a field that negates any powers within."

The chains are actively restricting/negating the use of the tailed beasts chakra from well, the tailed beasts. This should fit the description of power-null as the chains are actively restricting/negating the use of the tailed beasts chakra from themselfs, this is further supported by the fact that their astral selfs are binded as well which is the representation of their soul/chakra disabling their abilities related to their chakra.

That is just factually wrong. A Jinchurikis access to bijuu chakra is directly correlated to their transformation stage. Narutos seal weakening had boom slowly grow into further stages until Minato fixed it which reverted him to base.

At a certain point yes. For example naruto can use Kurama mode after he gained kurama's trust, now when he transforms into Kurama Mode he and kurama become seperate entities that can be interected seperatly. Thats why the Outer paths chains were able to yank kurama out of naruto, because it was affecting kurama specificaly not naruto inside of kurama.

Bee having his bijuu chakra drained reverted him from v2 to v1 cloak.

Thats my point, when your at lower states fo transformation of like v2/v1 its easeir to seal because its just the Jin borowing chakra. But when they fully transform into the tailled beast state, thats the tailed beast alone which is alot different then just the jin

The edo Jinchurikis chakra being "bottled up" should very much effectively have the same result as those 2 things and revert them to a lower stage.

But it wasnt the Jins but rather the tailed beasts themselfs. As I mentioned above once the Jin transforms into its respective tailed beast state, its the tailed beast themself from here on out now. Obito was using the chains to restrict/negate the tailed beasts from using their own chakra and hence regressing their forms,

i also check the raw for this chapter and it does not say "bottle up" but rather
"いきなり尾獣の力をなぜかおさえ止め"
"Suddenly, for some reason, he stops the power of the tailed beast."

with the kanji 止める means "to stop (something or someone); to turn off"

so i think this qulifies for power-null, as he can willingly turn off/negate/nullify the tailed beasts power when ever he want

Doesn't that just make sense? The more power they have the more difficult it is to seal that power. That's why a weak sealing user like Yamato can't seal 8t Naruto but a strong sealing user like Minato could.

i guess

at the end of the day this has alredy been accepted to be power null many times by many mods and if you have more questions about it, i suggest you seek out UchihaSlayer. He was the one that got this accepted, i am simply a humble herald that borrows his ideas

 

[DavidTPPM]

That was the reason it got accepted

Then it's wrong

I think your looking at this the wrong way David. as state by the wiki

"Power Nullification is the ability to nullify the powers and abilities of others, preventing or disabling their effects. The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character, but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic. In some cases, an ability can only be negated once it's been used or activated, but in others, powers can be nullified before they're even utilized. The effect may be temporary or permanent, and may be restricted by touch, or be something that the user can apply to any ability they see, or within a field that negates any powers within."

The chains are actively restricting/negating the use of the tailed beasts chakra from well, the tailed beasts. This should fit the description of power-null as the chains are actively restricting/negating the use of the tailed beasts chakra from themselfs,

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Sealing away ("restricting", "binding" or "bottling up") their access to bijuu chakra "nullifies" their modes meaning it can be considered power null but the mechanics are completely different from the power null of TSO. My issue has from the start been not that it's not power null but that the mechanics of the power null are too different for it to require the same resistances.

This is like if Yamato resisted fear induced paralysis and you tried claiming Sasukes chidori has layered paralysis because it paralyzed him.

What's layered is the method not the end result.

At a certain point yes. For example naruto can use Kurama mode after he gained kurama's trust, now when he transforms into Kurama Mode he and kurama become seperate entities that can be interected seperatly. Thats why the Outer paths chains were able to yank kurama out of naruto, because it was affecting kurama specificaly not naruto inside of kurama.

This is completely besides the point.

Thats my point, when your at lower states fo transformation of like v2/v1 its easeir to seal because its just the Jin borowing chakra. But when they fully transform into the tailled beast state, thats the tailed beast alone which is alot different then just the jin

No it's not. We factually know that it's just the Jinchurikis body expanding into the bijuu form because Goku explained that's why their rinnegan receiver moves as they transform into bijuu.
We also know Bee for example retains his mind even when transformed.

But it wasnt the Jins but rather the tailed beasts themselfs. As I mentioned above once the Jin transforms into its respective tailed beast state, its the tailed beast themself from here on out now. Obito was using the chains to restrict/negate the tailed beasts from using their own chakra and hence regressing their forms,

And as I mentioned above, that's a baseless contradictory assumption.

i also check the raw for this chapter and it does not say "bottle up" but rather
"いきなり尾獣の力をなぜかおさえ止め"
"Suddenly, for some reason, he stops the power of the tailed beast."

with the kanji 止める means "to stop (something or someone); to turn off"

I tried searching it up and おさえ止め means to "suppress" or "restrain" which perfectly fits sealing

so i think this qulifies for power-null, as he can willingly turn off/negate/nullify the tailed beasts power when ever he want

i guess

at the end of the day this has alredy been accepted to be power null many times by many mods and if you have more questions about it, i suggest you seek out UchihaSlayer. He was the one that got this accepted

Idk why are you suddenly strawmanning me. This has never been about whether it qualifies as power null or not but about whether it's achieved through the same mechanism.

Power null doesn't have different types like idk, Concept Manip, AE, or immortality. BUT, as the page says, it can be achieved in different ways.

For example Pain can nullify ninjutsu by absorbing them, Isshiki can nullify ninjutsu by shrinking them, and SPCT can nullify people's power by sealing them away. These are 3 completely different mechanics that all count as power nullification.

And I don't really see how the mechanic of TSO, rinnegan rods, and outer path chains really resembles each other. TSO is mostly shown erasing and nullifying ninjutsu while the chains are as far as I can tell only shown suppressing your power directly, more so stopping you from using a ninjutsu rather than nullifying it upon contact

It doesn't matter whether the end result is vaguely similar what matters is whether the mechanism that achieves it is similar enough

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Then it's wrong

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Sealing away ("restricting", "binding" or "bottling up") their access to bijuu chakra "nullifies" their modes meaning it can be considered power null but the mechanics are completely different from the power null of TSO. My issue has from the start been not that it's not power null but that the mechanics of the power null are too different for it to require the same resistances.

This is like if Yamato resisted fear induced paralysis and you tried claiming Sasukes chidori has layered paralysis because it paralyzed him.

What's layered is the method not the end result.

This is completely besides the point.

No it's not. We factually know that it's just the Jinchurikis body expanding into the bijuu form because Goku explained that's why their rinnegan receiver moves as they transform into bijuu.
We also know Bee for example retains his mind even when transformed.

And as I mentioned above, that's a baseless contradictory assumption.

I tried searching it up and おさえ止め means to "suppress" or "restrain" which perfectly fits sealing

Idk why are you suddenly strawmanning me. This has never been about whether it qualifies as power null or not but about whether it's achieved through the same mechanism.

It doesn't matter whether the end result is vaguely similar what matters is whether the mechanism that achieves it is similar enough

i'll remove it then

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Bump

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Bump

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Bump X2

 

[FinePoint]

I'm not really knowledgeable on the verse, but Godernet seems to make sense to me.

 

[Kachon123]

The invisibility's layering is written incorrectly.

First you have to prove that souls in Naruto are invisible by default.

Second, to address the action chain written in the OP and sandbox:

Asura/Indra > KoH > souls

For being able to Percive Indra/Ashura

• Hagoromo/Kaguya > Ashura/Indra > KoH > Souls

(3-layers)

Sage Mode, Sharingan Users and KCM1 for being able to percive KoH

• SM/Sharingan/KCM1 > KoH > Souls

(2-layers)

Assuming that there is proof of souls being invisible, that's only a baseline ability and shinobi would have baseline enhanced senses. KoH would have 1 layer of invisibility for being invisible to shinobi, Naruto and those on his level would be 1 layer of enhanced senses for seeing it. Ashura/Indra would be 2 layers for being invisible to them and Hagoromo/Kaguya would both be 2 layers. So pretty much everything shifts down one.

If it can't be proven that souls are invisible by default, then the layers would look more like this.

Hagoromo/Kaguya: 1 layer enhanced senses
Ashura/Indra: 1 layer invisibility
Naruto, Itachi: Baseline enhanced senses
KoH: Baseline invisibility

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

The invisibility's layering is written incorrectly.

Mb I forgor to fix when fixing up all the resistances

First you have to prove that souls in Naruto are invisible by default.

Aren’t souls invisible by default? And as far as it has been shown only shinobi are able to see souls which is consistent with the portrayal of the use of chakra which is just the soul being used for attacks.

Normal civilians are unable to “mold” their chakra like shinobi, yes they do posses chakra but that is a natural thing that all living and non-living thing have, the ability to use that chakra offensively is only exclusive to shinobi. These civilians are and hence cannot performs all the supernatural functions of their chakra, this also should extend to their sense as well. Shinobi perform years of training and practice and get intimately familiar with their chakra and the way they can manipulate it making them acutely able to sense things like chakra auras -they are invisible- which itachi said could only be done by shinobi. Civilians are capable of non of this and hence should be unable to percive chakra let alone the soul which is the purest version of chakra

Second, to address the action chain written in the OP and sandbox:


Assuming that there is proof of souls being invisible, that's only a baseline ability and shinobi would have baseline enhanced senses. KoH would have 1 layer of invisibility for being invisible to shinobi, Naruto and those on his level would be 1 layer of enhanced senses for seeing it. Ashura/Indra would be 2 layers for being invisible to them and Hagoromo/Kaguya would both be 2 layers. So pretty much everything shifts down one.

If it can't be proven that souls are invisible by default, then the layers would look more like this.

Hagoromo/Kaguya: 1 layer enhanced senses
Ashura/Indra: 1 layer invisibility
Naruto, Itachi: Baseline enhanced senses
KoH: Baseline invisibility

K

I'm not really knowledgeable on the verse, but Godernet seems to make sense to me.

thank you for the eval point, about the paralysis inducement does that count for layers? And if you dont mind could you ping 2 more mods?

 

[FinePoint]

thank you for the eval point, about the paralysis inducement does that count for layers? And if you dont mind could you ping 2 more mods?

I think so. Who do you want me to ping?

 

[Kachon123]

Aren’t souls invisible by default? And as far as it has been shown only shinobi are able to see souls which is consistent with the portrayal of the use of chakra which is just the soul being used for attacks.

Not necessarily. I mean the fact that shinobi are just by default seeing it and there's even a ghost transformation jutsu that isn't implied to be invisible puts it in a neutral ground so to use souls for layering you need to show proof of it actually having baseline invisibility in the first place

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I think so. Who do you want me to ping?

Thanks, Could you ping Nierre or lordtracer

 

[FinePoint]

Thanks, Could you ping Nierre or lordtracer

@Nierre @LordTracer

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Godernet makes sense to me.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Godernet makes sense to me.

thanks for the evl DDM

 

[Ezaru]

The invisibility's layering is written incorrectly.

First you have to prove that souls in Naruto are invisible by default.

Second, to address the action chain written in the OP and sandbox:


Assuming that there is proof of souls being invisible, that's only a baseline ability and shinobi would have baseline enhanced senses. KoH would have 1 layer of invisibility for being invisible to shinobi, Naruto and those on his level would be 1 layer of enhanced senses for seeing it. Ashura/Indra would be 2 layers for being invisible to them and Hagoromo/Kaguya would both be 2 layers. So pretty much everything shifts down one.

If it can't be proven that souls are invisible by default, then the layers would look more like this.

Hagoromo/Kaguya: 1 layer enhanced senses
Ashura/Indra: 1 layer invisibility
Naruto, Itachi: Baseline enhanced senses
KoH: Baseline invisibility

So 1 Layer is actually two layers in?

Baseline < Layer 1?

 

[Kachon123]

So 1 Layer is actually two layers in?

Baseline < Layer 1?

Yup. It's x amount of layers over baseline.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Bump

 

[Uzumakisaber]

Would you consider this a layer ? Kakashi was able to distort Kaguya’s dimensional portal using Kamui. Doesn’t that imply that Kamui is superior to Kaguya’s portals?
Kamui > Kaguya’s portals.

As for seals, there are many throughout the series. But there’s a moment where Madara managed to break Shukaku’s seal while it was placed inside the sand pyramid—even though he was in Sage Mode and using the Susano’o.
Does that mean Shukaku’s seal is stronger than Hashirama’s gate seals? Especially if Madara was capable of breaking through Hashirama’s gates at the base?
Shukaku’s seal > Hashirama’s seal?

On one hand, Hashirama’s seal was able to restrain the Ten Tails, which is extremely powerful.
But on the other hand, Shukaku is specialized in sealing techniques, so it's hard to say which is stronger.

Also, there’s the seal Danzo used against Sasuke. Sasuke couldn’t break it until he activated his Susano’o. So theoretically, Madara should be able to do the same—if not more.

Is this considered an extra layer?

 

[Uzumakisaber]

I'm not sure if this counts, but it's worth noting how Kamui seems resistant to chakra nullification. For example, the Truth-Seeking Orbs (TSO) are supposed to erase chakra entirely, yet they weren’t able to cancel out Kamui.

Another instance is when Kaguya lost control over the Ten Tails after Naruto’s attack. Multiple hands appeared, trying to absorb chakra from Naruto's clones. These hands were so dangerous that both Naruto and Sasuke had to make a serious effort to avoid them.

However, Kamui was able to distort or phase through those hands, and they couldn’t absorb it—suggesting that Kamui operates on a different level that even the Ten Tails’ chakra absorption couldn’t affect.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Would you consider this a layer ? Kakashi was able to distort Kaguya’s dimensional portal using Kamui. Doesn’t that imply that Kamui is superior to Kaguya’s portals?
Kamui > Kaguya’s portals.

I don’t seem to recall this

As for seals, there are many throughout the series. But there’s a moment where Madara managed to break Shukaku’s seal while it was placed inside the sand pyramid—even though he was in Sage Mode and using the Susano’o.
Does that mean Shukaku’s seal is stronger than Hashirama’s gate seals? Especially if Madara was capable of breaking through Hashirama’s gates at the base?
Shukaku’s seal > Hashirama’s seal?

On one hand, Hashirama’s seal was able to restrain the Ten Tails, which is extremely powerful.
But on the other hand, Shukaku is specialized in sealing techniques, so it's hard to say which is stronger.

Yes magnet release sealing jutsu is stronger then hashirama sealing jutsu. It’s already mentioned in the op

Also, there’s the seal Danzo used against Sasuke. Sasuke couldn’t break it until he activated his Susano’o. So theoretically, Madara should be able to do the same—if not more.

Is this considered an extra layer?

That was with susanoo, so it might just be an AP thing

I'm not sure if this counts, but it's worth noting how Kamui seems resistant to chakra nullification. For example, the Truth-Seeking Orbs (TSO) are supposed to erase chakra entirely, yet they weren’t able to cancel out Kamui.

Kamui it self doesn’t have chakra like say a rasengan. The technique is used by sending chakra to the eyes to make an effect which is the Kamui portal.

Another instance is when Kaguya lost control over the Ten Tails after Naruto’s attack. Multiple hands appeared, trying to absorb chakra from Naruto's clones. These hands were so dangerous that both Naruto and Sasuke had to make a serious effort to avoid them.

That’s for absorption that Naruto doesn’t have a baseline resistance to so it would not count for a layer

However, Kamui was able to distort or phase through those hands, and they couldn’t absorb it—suggesting that Kamui operates on a different level that even the Ten Tails’ chakra absorption couldn’t affect.

that’s just that, BFR and intangible which has no correlation to absorption.

For you to be able to gain a layer, you need to effect a character that already has a resistance to your type of ability. Like I can nullify the abilities of a character that already resist power null. That give me 1-layer or power null

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Naruto should also have layered talk no jutsu(social influence*)

 

[Uzumakisaber]

I don’t seem to recall this

Yes magnet release sealing jutsu is stronger then hashirama sealing jutsu. It’s already mentioned in the op

That was with susanoo, so it might just be an AP thing

Kamui it self doesn’t have chakra like say a rasengan. The technique is used by sending chakra to the eyes to make an effect which is the Kamui portal.

That’s for absorption that Naruto doesn’t have a baseline resistance to so it would not count for a layer

that’s just that, BFR and intangible which has no correlation to absorption.

For you to be able to gain a layer, you need to effect a character that already has a resistance to your type of ability. Like I can nullify the abilities of a character that already resist power null. That give me 1-layer or power null

I used to think that Naruto had some kind of ability that prevented his chakra from being absorbed—at least to a certain extent. I remember the scene where Kaguya and Black Zetsu captured Naruto and Sasuke and started telling them the history of the shinobi. At that moment, their movements were sealed using a technique—I believe it was the same seal Zetsu used on Madara before turning him into Kaguya. Madara couldn’t move at all after that.

While their chakra was being drained, both Naruto and Sasuke were still able to resist. What’s interesting is that Kaguya was able to absorb the chakra of the people trapped in the Infinite Tsukuyomi within seconds, yet she couldn’t absorb Naruto’s or Sasuke’s chakra the same way.

Naruto even managed to break out of the seal or paralysis technique that Kaguya (or Zetsu) used—something that Madara himself couldn’t do.

Also, if we go back to the moment when Naruto was "playing tug of war" with Kurama, wasn’t that technically a form of chakra absorption resistance? Killer Bee even mentioned that they’d be pulling at each other’s chakra.

Another example is when Momoshiki was trying to absorb Naruto’s chakra. He was visibly frustrated by how long it was taking. Naruto even told him, "I'm not going to make it easy for you." Right after that, Momoshiki absorbed one of his own massive subordinates (I think his name was Kinshiki) in an instant and turned him into a chakra fruit.

 

[Uzumakisaber]

I don’t seem to recall this

Yes magnet release sealing jutsu is stronger then hashirama sealing jutsu. It’s already mentioned in the op

That was with susanoo, so it might just be an AP thing

Kamui it self doesn’t have chakra like say a rasengan. The technique is used by sending chakra to the eyes to make an effect which is the Kamui portal.

That’s for absorption that Naruto doesn’t have a baseline resistance to so it would not count for a layer

that’s just that, BFR and intangible which has no correlation to absorption.

For you to be able to gain a layer, you need to effect a character that already has a resistance to your type of ability. Like I can nullify the abilities of a character that already resist power null. That give me 1-layer or power null

.


Kamui Kakashi distorts or relocates Kaguya's Dimensional Gate. At 3:35

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I used to think that Naruto had some kind of ability that prevented his chakra from being absorbed—at least to a certain extent.

He does have resistance for his chakra not being absorbed in an instant. But you can still absorb his chakra slowly like what Momoshiki did

I remember the scene where Kaguya and Black Zetsu captured Naruto and Sasuke and started telling them the history of the shinobi. At that moment, their movements were sealed using a technique—I believe it was the same seal Zetsu used on Madara before turning him into Kaguya. Madara couldn’t move at all after that.

That’s paralysis inducement, which is already on the OP

While their chakra was being drained, both Naruto and Sasuke were still able to resist. What’s interesting is that Kaguya was able to absorb the chakra of the people trapped in the Infinite Tsukuyomi within seconds, yet she couldn’t absorb Naruto’s or Sasuke’s chakra the same way.

Same thing as above

Naruto even managed to break out of the seal or paralysis technique that Kaguya (or Zetsu) used—something that Madara himself couldn’t do.

Already on the OP

Also, if we go back to the moment when Naruto was "playing tug of war" with Kurama, wasn’t that technically a form of chakra absorption resistance? Killer Bee even mentioned that they’d be pulling at each other’s chakra.

That’s NPi

Another example is when Momoshiki was trying to absorb Naruto’s chakra. He was visibly frustrated by how long it was taking. Naruto even told him, "I'm not going to make it easy for you." Right after that, Momoshiki absorbed one of his own massive subordinates (I think his name was Kinshiki) in an instant and turned him into a chakra fruit.

The fruit thing seems to be an oats thing only

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

.


Kamui Kakashi distorts or relocates Kaguya's Dimensional Gate. At 3:35

I don’t think this qualifies for a layer

Naruto should also have layered talk no jutsu(social influence*)

It that even possible

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Is that even possible

Yes, it is

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

bump

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Bump X2

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I mostly agree with Godernet.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I mostly agree with Godernet.

Thanks for the eval spaceman, appreciate it