Star Wars Legends Top Tiers Cleanup

[Xavis10]

The quote is not “tearing the universe asunder” but rather tearing at the “fabric of our universe” which doesn’t equate to destroying the universe. More importantly, the entire monologue given by the Father in the clone wars details how the Son and Daughter can influence the very balance of the Force and his concern that such may be exploited by some to wreck havok. This is the reasoning he gives for their withdrawal. If the concern is on lesser beings exploiting Gods and the balance of the Force, then it wouldn’t really be a matter of them destroying the universe via TK on accident.

There is no difference between "tearing the universe asunder" and "tearing at the fabric of our universe".

Moreover, "withdrawing because of some who would like to use their power" is not the reasoning he gives at all, it's still because of their powers being too great to exist in the temporal worlds, that is, Realspace, Hyperspace, Otherspace and any other eventual dimension encompassed in those.

Furthermore, some factions "wanting to use their power" isn't a detriment to their power level at all, if anything, it just solidifies their status.

 

[Epyriel]

"At the time" is insanely important there. When was that tweet written, and what was the exact question being answered? Keep in mind, it's still below the canonicity of The Clone Wars directly, so it would still be a contradiction to call Centerpoint Station the most powerful.

“At the time” is referring to the fact that his articles were written Pre-Disney and they are now Legends. The tweet itself was made in 2018 in response to some people asking him about the canonicity of his own SW.com articles.

I still don’t see any contradictions with TCW. It is not like TCW changed a prior narrative from the article either, the article was written 3 years after the Mortis Arc and meant to build upon it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

“At the time” is referring to the fact that his articles were written Pre-Disney and they are now Legends. The tweet itself was made in 2018 in response to some people asking him about the canonicity of his own SW.com articles.

Then such doesn't apply to the History of Centerpoint Station article, being written in 2014, after disney buy.

 

[Epyriel]

There is no difference between "tearing the universe asunder" and "tearing at the fabric of our universe".

Uhhhh, yes there is. One is destroying the universe the other is destroying part of it.

Moreover, "withdrawing because of some who would like to use their power" is not the reasoning he gives at all, it's still because of their powers being too great to exist in the temporal worlds, that is, Realspace, Hyperspace, Otherspace and any other eventual dimension encompassed in those.

Yes it is. He literally states:

There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much Dark or Light would be the undoing of life as you understand it.

-The Father, The Clone Wars

He also never mentions Hyperspace or Otherspace.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"At the time" is insanely important there. When was that tweet written, and what was the exact question being answered? Keep in mind, it's still below the canonicity of The Clone Wars directly, so it would still be a contradiction to call Centerpoint Station the most powerful.

My final thoughts: Disagree with the Krayt scaling and the Centerpoint Station stuff. I've given my thoughts on the matter. So if the Ones end up as fully 1-A based on their effects on Beyond Shadows, welp otherwise no change is needed to their profiles at the moment.

In regards to Abeloth being weakened, I would still agree overall anyways. I do believe it's very explicit how she got weakened, and don't find the black hole stuff as convincing enough otherwise.

We shall see what the rest of the staff think.

For clarification, since I got asked outside the site: I agree with scaling The Ones to whatever tier we end up putting Mortis as, for their ability to significantly affect it and turn it into "the fulcrum of the Force" (and galaxy, but that's less impressive hah)

 

[Epyriel]

Then such doesn't apply to the History of Centerpoint Station article, being written in 2014, after disney buy.

The article was written in January of 2014, prior to the Legends/Disney cutoff date of April 25th 2014.

 

[Xavis10]

Yes it is.

That doesn't say it's because of opportunistic factions they retreated into Morris, just says there are people who'd like to use their power.

He also never mentions Hyperspace or Otherspace.

Doesn't need to; they're part of the Universe.

 

[Epyriel]

That doesn't say it's because of opportunistic factions they retreated into Morris, just says there are people who'd like to use their power.

It is a literal followup to him explaining their retreat mere seconds ago.

 

[Xavis10]

It is a literal followup to him explaining their retreat mere seconds ago.

The same explanation that still hinged on them tearing at the fabric of the Universe. Ties in with what I said, opportunistic factions wanting to use their power doesn't invalidate their level/status, if anything, it just furthers it.

 

[OTG0001]

The entire point of the article is that the Mortis Gods need something to be able to construct a prison for Abeloth that they cannot accomplish on their own, and was sufficiently powerful to prevent Abeloth’s escape with the gravitational array of black holes long term. Even on previous breakouts, Abeloth was unable to destroy the station.

Nothing suggests that they could not achieve it on their own, that much you made up; I already cited a pretty straightforward reason why Centerpoint's construction is not linked to their lack of ability but rather them needing to have a long-term solution to Abeloth in lieu of their absence, which is strangely omitted from your response and is a rather detrimental contention to your argument.

Sinkhole not being destroyed doesn't really prove much and I'm not sure why you brought it up, but it can be chalked up to being a narrative inconsistency, especially when her power (as you agree with) should logically surpass that. Unless you want to claim her telekinetic ability is sub-planetary.

This also misses the point of the entire backstory of the Mortis Gods in Apocalypse that describe the fact that they were livign in harmony within the galaxy for a long time up to this point. They hadn’t even found Mortis yet. They hadn't withdrawn from the galaxy yet.

And sure, they want an automatic system to maintain the prison, but that doesn’t escape the fact that the prison itself was something they needed technological help to build and was sufficiently powerful to prevent Abeloth’s escape on its own as highlighted above.

It misses nothing. You're right, the Mortis Trio were living in harmony in the galaxy prior to Abeloth's transformation, but after it they needed Centerpoint to hold the black holes, in which after that they promptly left. Abeloth's transformation caused a mental effect for the Son and Daughter, which probably fueled their strife. The fact that they were living in harmony doesn't change anything, I'm not sure why it's even relevant given the reason for Centerpoint and the withdrawal was simply not present during that period.

So you're now implying that since the Killiks built Centerpoint then that implies their TK is also sub-planetary? is that what I'm getting at here? I don't think the Killiks constructing Centerpoint affects the veracity of anything suggesting they have greater power than solar system level though.

An entire civilization working together for a significant amount of time on a galactic project doesn’t scale to the Ones simply because they are above individual Celestials.

Where does it say the Great Hyperspace Barrier took a extended period of time? or are you referring to the creation of the universe by the celestials? the quote says this:

I believe they engineered the hyperspace barrier that surrounds our galaxy, either to protect themselves against invasion or to prevent the return of beings they had exiled from this galaxy. Perhaps both. And I believe they engineered the chain of hyperspace anomalies that have long frustrated exploration west of the Deep Core.

Anyways,

All of this is in line with ED, but beyond that, the idea that Mortis is 7D is baseless. That comes from a quote referring to a possible explanation to the disappearance of the civilization of the Celestials thousands of years after the Mortis Gods retreated to Mortis.

How does being a aspect of the Force align with ED? Also 7D Mortis was accepted in the Cosmology Thread, not sure why you're contending that now, but if you disagree you can elaborate. That also doesn't discredit the Father being connected to Mortis.

You are confusing murals with planets. The third mural shows three planets within it. And two of the planets are shown at a distance and yet her face is still visible. The growths are described similarly to descriptions of Abeloth herself and have her face covering the sky of each world. The intent here is very clear.

More baseless extrapolation, but it's pretty clear that the murals are depicting the surface of planets, not the planets themselves, they have localized descriptions (A city in ruin, plants chasing animals, blast-flattened forests) which shouldn't really be visible from space, nowhere does it state that the planets are shown at a distance, and the islands of flesh are not stated to be growths, that's a false equivalence. You also didn't address her face can only be around 10-20km in size nor did you address the fact that size does not equal power, Yoda is stronger than Dooku despite being smaller.

Abeloth spent tens of thousands of years isolated and unable to feed which she directly attributes to her power, after having been defeated by the Son and Daughter (with the deaths of her avatars explicitly weakening her).

The fact that Taalon is missing the Font is irrelevant. I am not claiming Taalon is as strong as Abeloth, I am pointing out the shared mechanism for how their power works which Abeloth repeatedly upholds all throughout Vortex.

A lack of feeding weakens them, and feeding on the fear and life Force of people strengthens them.

And the fact Taalon had an injured leg doesn’t affect his Force powers, and yet near the end he was legitimately struggling against the likes of Vestara Khai despite her being a fingerflick gap below Luke and Taalon previously being a giant threat to Luke himself.

Yea, you still didn't provide by HOW MUCH she got weakened. Was it by 100%? 100000%? Because it's quite a jump between Solar System Level and Complex Multi. Even if she was significantly weakened, she should still have pretty considerable power, given she was capable of controlling her planet and causing widespread devastation on Coruscant, which would be comparable to the effects she had on the planets in the mural.

It poses relevancy, Since Abeloth is what she is due to both pools, not because of one, using a character that fed on one but not the other and saying that's equivalent to how Abeloth transformed is a leap. They could have a shared mechanism but differing effects upon drinking, since one was deprived of the pool. In any case, we don't know either way, so this isn't really quantifiable.

Remember, the fact that she needs LIFE FORCE after being in the maw implies she was drained of it through the black holes, which actively go against the living force.

You're right, it doesn't affect his Force Powers, but it affects his ability to react and his speed, which was what was specifically cited as a vulnerability, not the drinking. That's specifically why the duo could get a advantage over him.

Quantify that.
Because in every description and every actual feat we see, the effect of the black holes is minimal. The entire army of Sith and Jedi in FotJ: Allies suffer no ill effects from being in the center of the Maw, even in a large scale battle. Even the Force sensitive children who lived on the station in the center of the cluster of black holes suffered only very mild consequences across years of living there.

And yet for this argument to work, you would need the black holes to basically turn off the powers of gods entirely.

And yet Abeloth’s powers in Allies while fighting at the center of dozens of black holes was actually stronger than on Pydyr in Vortex while recovering from her wounds while completely outside the effect of the black holes.

Cite the stuff you mentioned, the second point doesn't mean anything I don't think.

 

[OTG0001]

The same explanation that still hinged on them tearing at the fabric of the Universe. Ties in with what I said, opportunistic factions wanting to use their power doesn't invalidate their level/status, if anything, it just furthers it.

Will add on to this, another scan I sent in the long contention said that they withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their force powers. This suggests it's probably greater than a localized effect.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Will add on to this, another scan I sent in the long contention said that they withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their force powers. This suggests it's probably greater than a localized effect.

I also argued such in my own post, btw.

 

[Epyriel]

Nothing suggests that they could not achieve it on their own, that much you made up;

The entire description of its construction implies it was needed for moving the black holes. And more importantly Abeloth’s inability to overpower its tractor beams and their gravitational pull.

I already cited a pretty straightforward reason why Centerpoint's construction is not linked to their lack of ability but rather them needing to have a long-term solution to Abeloth in lieu of their absence, which is strangely omitted from your response and is a rather detrimental contention to your argument.

I already dealt with this above.

Sinkhole not being destroyed doesn't really prove much and I'm not sure why you brought it up, but it can be chalked up to being a narrative inconsistency, especially when her power (as you agree with) should logically surpass that. Unless you want to claim her telekinetic ability is sub-planetary.

It doesn’t mean it is sub-planetary, it means it is capped at Multi-Solar System level since she couldn’t overpower its tractor beams.

Where does it say the Great Hyperspace Barrier took a extended period of time? or are you referring to the creation of the universe by the celestials? the quote says this:

It says engineered, it wasn’t exactly a snap of the fingers. There is also the broader lore on why it was created in the first place but that is a long tangent I don’t want to get into.

Anyways,
How does being a aspect of the Force align with ED? Also 7D Mortis was accepted in the Cosmology Thread, not sure why you're contending that now, but if you disagree you can elaborate. That also doesn't discredit the Father being connected to Mortis.

I was referring to the effects on the galaxy being described. The actual feats.

More baseless extrapolation, but it's pretty clear that the murals are depicting the surface of planets, not the planets themselves, they have localized descriptions (A city in ruin, plants chasing animals, blast-flattened forests) which shouldn't really be visible from space, nowhere does it state that the planets are shown at a distance, and the islands of flesh are not stated to be growths, that's a false equivalence. You also didn't address her face can only be around 10-20km in size nor did you address the fact that size does not equal power, Yoda is stronger than Dooku despite being smaller.

I seriously have no idea why the size of the face matters when the whole point of it is to show what is happening to the actual world. It is indicating Abeloth’s possession it is not the feat itself. “An island of mouldy flesh” being the only landscape is very telling.

Being able to actually possess life at such scale indicates a huge change in comparison to her 3 avatar max in FOTJ.

Yea, you still didn't provide by HOW MUCH she got weakened. Was it by 100%? 100000%? Because it's quite a jump between Solar System Level and Complex Multi. Even if she was significantly weakened, she should still have pretty considerable power, given she was capable of controlling her planet and causing widespread devastation on Coruscant, which would be comparable to the effects she had on the planets in the mural.

I already dealt with this in the OP, being able to posses an entire planet’s worth of life as avatars vs a 3 person max is a huge difference, as is the difference implied by Sarasu Taalon going like a week without feeding and going from Luke to Ben level compared to Abeloth going thousands of years without feeding.

And it isn’t going from Comlex Multi to Solar System level, in the OP it is going from Multi-Solar System level to Solar System level (but realistically should be Multi-Solar System level to Multi-Continent level as I was just going off of the accepted Solar System level for top tier mortals which I was planning on debunking later, but at this point I’m probably just going to give up on the verse as unsalvageable on VSBW).

It poses relevancy, Since Abeloth is what she is due to both pools, not because of one, using a character that fed on one but not the other and saying that's equivalent to how Abeloth transformed is a leap. They could have a shared mechanism but differing effects upon drinking, since one was deprived of the pool. In any case, we don't know either way, so this isn't really quantifiable.

The mechanism for their power is pretty explicitly the same given the contents of the entire chapter of Abeloth explaining how her own power works, implying it works the same for Taalon, and then proving herself right by restoring him through feeding on fear.

Remember, the fact that she needs LIFE FORCE after being in the maw implies she was drained of it through the black holes, which actively go against the living force.

Please cite this, as the only source for this weakening comes from the description of the incredibly mild effect on children.

You're right, it doesn't affect his Force Powers, but it affects his ability to react and his speed, which was what was specifically cited as a vulnerability, not the drinking. That's specifically why the duo could get a advantage over him.

Shouldn’t effect the speed of his arms or his durability or his own ability to respond or deflect with the Force as he was doing to Luke earlier.

Cite the stuff you mentioned, the second point doesn't mean anything I don't think.

This is the only quote for the black holes’ effect:

Luke nodded. “Black holes are an interesting astronomical phenomenon to scientists, and a vaguely unsettling image for most other people … but Force-users and Force-sensitives have a real dislike or dread of them.”

“Why?”

His father shrugged. “The Force derives from life. Even death is not all that disturbing to a Force-user, since it is a part, a necessary consequence, of life. Black holes are something else. A cessation outside of life. Maybe the way they draw in all energy and trap it forever runs against our instincts. I’m not sure. I do know that the Force-sensitive children we hid at Shelter during the Yuuzhan Vong War did not like being in the Maw, surrounded on all sides by black holes. You’re too young to remember, but the Jedi caretakers at Shelter said there was a lot of crying.

-Fate of the Jedi: Outcast

Some crying by children who stayed in the same Maw for years. Doesn’t even say they weakened anybody, were just unpleasant to be around.

 

[OTG0001]

The entire description of its construction implies it was needed for moving the black holes. And more importantly Abeloth’s inability to overpower its tractor beams and their gravitational pull.

It does not imply that it was needed because the Ones couldn't do it by themselves though. The second part ties into the Black Holes so I'll address that there, but I must say that Star Wars gravity is almost certainly stronger than normal gravity, there are statements of Black Holes running on Supergravity + The Hypergems (multi-dimensional object beyond the 3 spatial and temporal) being a byproduct of neutron star gravity, and Black Holes are greater in gravitational force than Neutron Stars.

It doesn’t mean it is sub-planetary, it means it is capped at Multi-Solar System level since she couldn’t overpower its tractor beams.

Pretty sure that's what you insinuated, because she could have destroyed the station as a whole without overpowering the gravitational beams, but I digress.

It says engineered, it wasn’t exactly a snap of the fingers. There is also the broader lore on why it was created in the first place but that is a long tangent I don’t want to get into.

That long tangent is pretty pertinent towards the broader argument, so if you don't want to substantiate on your reasoning then I suppose you concede on that, but being "engineered" does not inherently imply that it took a significant amount of time, it's rather dependent on factors.

I was referring to the effects on the galaxy being described. The actual feats.

That's not what is in question at all really, what is in question is their relativity towards mortis in terms of their physicals, through being a aspect of the force and Mortis being inexplicably connected to the father (it collapsed right after). I asked you for a reason why Mortis isn't connected to the Father or why it isn't 7D, and since you didn't reply, I can take your concession on the matter.

I seriously have no idea why the size of the face matters when the whole point of it is to show what is happening to the actual world. It is indicating Abeloth’s possession it is not the feat itself. “An island of mouldy flesh” being the only landscape is very telling.

Being able to actually possess life at such scale indicates a huge change in comparison to her 3 avatar max in FOTJ.

You're the one which cited the face as proving her possessing the biospheres, did you not? Because excluding the faces, there is no meaningful distinction in power in comparison to Coruscant Abeloth which can produce similar if not greater environmental effects or her control of the planet in the Maw, which is also pretty similar. The suffering of Courscant's population should also rejuvenate her by a massive extent, considering the amount of people there.

Yea. Her "biosphere control" seems to be limited to a few plants and animals here and there, which is exactly the same as what she can do in the maw. Nothing else indicates possession, her being in the sky doesn't, the flesh islandS don't (it's more than likely it's dead sea creatures) and no it's not very telling, Ocean worlds have very sparse landmasses if at all, so having flesh mounds (which may or may not be island sized, most likely not) would be the only notable feature outside of the ocean itself. Not that it supports anything, the flesh is not implied not stated to be of her possession. If she truly possessed the biosphere of that planet, why are there birds which seem to not be of her control?

What scale? You know her maw feats and mural feats are incredibly similar right? The maw feat might even be better, because it seems to be planet wide, unlike the murals which don't suggest that.

I already dealt with this in the OP, being able to posses an entire planet’s worth of life as avatars vs a 3 person max is a huge difference, as is the difference implied by Sarasu Taalon going like a week without feeding and going from Luke to Ben level compared to Abeloth going thousands of years without feeding.

And it isn’t going from Comlex Multi to Solar System level, in the OP it is going from Multi-Solar System level to Solar System level (but realistically should be Multi-Solar System level to Multi-Continent level as I was just going off of the accepted Solar System level for top tier mortals which I was planning on debunking later, but at this point I’m probably just going to give up on the verse as unsalvageable on VSBW).

Who says the plant/animal life is her avatars and not just something she posesses/controls? even so, Abeloth in the maw was capable of doing the same if not to a greater ability considering it's stated she's possessing the entire planet's plant life, unlike the murals. Also no, you're downgrading Abeloth and Luke from their current 1-C tier to a 4-A tier, not from multi-solar to solar. You also act as if the mural feat is her prime, which is not stated, the only thing you can base this off of is purported size, which I already addressed.

The mechanism for their power is pretty explicitly the same given the contents of the entire chapter of Abeloth explaining how her own power works, implying it works the same for Taalon, and then proving herself right by restoring him through feeding on fear.

Yea, I agreed to them having the same mechanism of power, but your argument hinges on Taalon being weakened by the transformation, which then reduces him to Sub-Ben Skywalker, and using that instance to show how much Abeloth might have weakened. Unlike Taalon, however, Abeloth drank from the Font of Power as well, meaning there should be some delineation between the two, which would invalidate your argument. Please track.

Please cite this, and the only source for this weakening comes from the description of the incredibly mild effect on children.

Really this was your claim, that she was feeding on life force after she escaped from the maw, also the Children were at a considerable distance away from the Maw, Sinkhole was stated to be at some galactic coordinate far away from the maw (Xavis might be able to back this up)

Shouldn’t effect the speed of his arms or his durability or his own ability to respond or deflect with the Force as he was doing to Luke earlier.

If his reactions were hindered, he might not have been able to conjure up a force barrier in time or deflect anything. Remember Force users don't have very good innate defenses.

Some crying by children who stayed in the same Maw for years. Doesn’t even say they weakened anybody, were just unpleasant to be around.

Doesn't say they were weakened or not, but the passage above clearly illustrates the dangers inherent by being near black holes, and the fact that abeloth had to feed on life/force energy afterwards implies it did have a weakening effect. She didn't just feed on fear, that's not her only method of acquiring power, she also fed on the life force of people.

 

[Epyriel]

It does not imply that it was needed because the Ones couldn't do it by themselves though.

In moving the black hole? That was definitely the implication I got while reading it.

The second part ties into the Black Holes so I'll address that there, but I must say that Star Wars gravity is almost certainly stronger than normal gravity, there are statements of Black Holes running on Supergravity + The Hypergems (multi-dimensional object beyond the 3 spatial and temporal) being a byproduct of neutron star gravity, and Black Holes are greater in gravitational force than Neutron Stars.

…

Pretty sure that's what you insinuated, because she could have destroyed the station as a whole without overpowering the gravitational beams, but I digress.

If she can only barely escape through the Maw there is no reason to think she can get close enough through the black holes and the tractor beams to Centerpoint itself.

That long tangent is pretty pertinent towards the broader argument, so if you don't want to substantiate on your reasoning then I suppose you concede on that, but being "engineered" does not inherently imply that it took a significant amount of time, it's rather dependent on factors.

It means random individual Celestials can’t do it under their own power which already invalidates your scale of The Ones > Celestials = therefore they scale to everything.

That long tangent is pretty pertinent towards the broader argument, so if you don't want to substantiate on your reasoning then I suppose you concede on that,

Also quit being bad faith.

That's not what is in question at all really, what is in question is their relativity towards mortis in terms of their physicals, through being a aspect of the force and Mortis being inexplicably connected to the father (it collapsed right after). I asked you for a reason why Mortis isn't connected to the Father or why it isn't 7D,

The current support for Mortis being 7D rests entirely on a Canon source.

and since you didn't reply, I can take your concession on the matter.

I think you need to lookup what the word concession means.

You're the one which cited the face as proving her possessing the biospheres, did you not? Because excluding the faces, there is no meaningful distinction in power in comparison to Coruscant Abeloth which can produce similar if not greater environmental effects or her control of the planet in the Maw, which is also pretty similar. The suffering of Courscant's population should also rejuvenate her by a massive extent, considering the amount of people there.

Yea. Her "biosphere control" seems to be limited to a few plants and animals here and there, which is exactly the same as what she can do in the maw. Nothing else indicates possession, her being in the sky doesn't, the flesh islands don't (it's more than likely it's dead sea creatures) and no it's not very telling, Ocean worlds have very sparse landmasses if at all, so having flesh mounds (which may or may not be island sized, most likely not) would be the only notable feature outside of the ocean itself. Not that it supports anything, the flesh is not implied not stated to be of her possession. If she truly possessed the biosphere of that planet, why are there birds which seem to not be of her control?

What scale? You know her maw feats and mural feats are incredibly similar right? The maw feat might even be better, because it seems to be planet wide, unlike the murals which don't suggest that.


Who says the plant/animal life is her avatars and not just something she posesses/controls? even so, Abeloth in the maw was capable of doing the same if not to a greater ability considering it's stated she's possessing the entire planet's plant life, unlike the murals.

As I have repeated multiple times, the description of the entire landmass degenerating into ‘moldy flesh’ like herself with the symbolism of the face is indicative of possession, it has nothing to do with some random attempt to derive an AP value from the scale of it. It is the quantity of avatars.

Controlling plants is not the same as making them an avatar.

Also no, you're downgrading Abeloth and Luke from their current 1-C tier to a 4-A tier, not from multi-solar to solar.

I’m trying to split Pre-Imprisonment Abeloth and FOTJ Abeloth. Saying as I’m implying the actual weakening of her imprisonment went from 1-C to 4-A is disingenuous.

Yea, I agreed to them having the same mechanism of power, but your argument hinges on Taalon being weakened by the transformation, which then reduces him to Sub-Ben Skywalker, and using that instance to show how much Abeloth might have weakened. Unlike Taalon, however, Abeloth drank from the Font of Power as well, meaning there should be some delineation between the two, which would invalidate your argument. Please track.

So because there is a possibility of a difference in speed of weakening while Taalon was drastically reduced in a weak while Abeloth suffered the same effect for thousands of years, we should just pretend like she wouldn't be weakened at all?

To call this a stretch is an understatement.

Really this was your claim, that she was feeding on life force after she escaped from the maw, also the Children were at a considerable distance away from the Maw, Sinkhole was stated to be at some galactic coordinate far away from the maw (Xavis might be able to back this up)

????

Sinkhole was literally maintaining the Maw. It was right in the middle of it.

Not to mention the fact The Shelter was an entirely different station also in the middle of the Maw. That was the entire reason it was used as a hideout - navigating through the Maw was very difficult, making it very hard to find.

If his reactions were hindered, he might not have been able to conjure up a force barrier in time or deflect anything. Remember Force users don't have very good innate defenses.

Why would a leg injury nerf his Force amplification and thus his ability to react appropriately? Not to mention this is Legends where passive barriers exist.

Doesn't say they were weakened or not, but the passage above clearly illustrates the dangers inherent by being near black holes,

Dangers? Dread and discomfort was the only thing stated explicitly.

the fact that abeloth had to feed on life/force energy afterwards implies it did have a weakening effect. She didn't just feed on fear, that's not her only method of acquiring power, she also fed on the life force of people.

The fact she was alone and starving for thousands of years after being defeated would already require that.

 

[OTG0001]

So instead of providing substance in your contentions, you elect to not address multiple parts of the greater argument. This will be my last response and I'll just wait for the consensus, unless your next response actually addresses stuff.

"..." is not a response, we are trying to ascertain where characters would tier, which requires thoughtful analysis, not dismissal. Anyways I'm pretty sure you find such a notion absurd, but to dismiss it on the basis of absurdity is fallacious. Star wars can have differing rules than the real world you know.

It means random individual Celestials can’t do it under their own power which already invalidates your scale of The Ones > Celestials = therefore they scale to everything.

Plurality is not used to denote that more than one celestial achieved that feat, but rather it is among the race's accomplishments. Engineering also doesn't imply that there is more than one celestial which preformed said task. Not sure where you got that from.

I also didn't claim the celestials created the universes singularly but whatever.

Also quit being bad faith.

Not sure why i'm being bad faith here, but i'm open to constructive criticism.

The current support for Mortis being 7D rests entirely on a Canon source.

The two sources which directly hold it above hyperspace/otherspace/realspace are:

1. Skywalker Family at War, which is canon (the "rules of time and space")

2. Nexus of Power, which doesn't defer to either continuity ("normal notions of time and space are meaningless")

Even without that, we have statements of Mortis being metaphysical, spiritual and "beyond/outside realspace", which should at least place it above Realspace, but both Hyperspace and Otherspace are physical constructs, so possibly them as well.

I think you need to lookup what the word concession means.

I'm well aware of what the word means. Respond to the argument.

As I have repeated multiple times, the description of the entire landmass degenerating into ‘moldy flesh’ like herself with the symbolism of the face is indicative of possession, it has nothing to do with some random attempt to derive an AP value from the scale of it. It is the quantity of avatars.

Controlling plants is not the same as making them an avatar.

That's nice and all but you still haven't addressed what I said at all, islands of flesh are not landmasses, nor does it say that the entire landmass degenerated into flesh, you made that up, also not sure how you correlated her face and possession, nothing indicates that, it can also equally be non-symbolic, but if it was symbolic of something then she was likely never that big in the first place. It's quite a leap to call her face hanging in the sky (even symbolically) indicative of possession. ATP you're going off of theory and not what the text says.

I already addressed the quantity of avatars argument, albeit indirectly, but both the murals and her planet depict the same amount of "plant/animal avatars" (assuming she was possessing the biosphere)

Yea, so you basically admit to being disingenuous, because if we pull up the quote:

After hurrying through two more archways, Thuruht finally stopped before a set of panels depicting three devastated worlds. In the first, an entire city lay in ruins. There were fungi rising from the rubble, and a drove of three-eyed bipeds could be seen fleeing a horde of tentacled felines. The second relief showed scores of dazed woodland creatures struggling through a blast-flattened forest, many fighting in vain to escape the fangvines wrapped around their legs. The third scene was the most gruesome of all. It was an ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh. Hanging in the sky of each world was a female face with a gaping, fang-filled smile that stretched from one ear to another.
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

"It was a ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh" not "it was a ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over what appeared to be landmasses degenerating into moldy flesh, due to the presence of the smiling face in the sky"

"In the first, a entire city lay in ruins. There were fungi rising from the rubble, and a drove of three-eyed bipeds could be seen fleeing a horde of tentacled felines"

"The second relief showed scores of dazed woodland creatures struggling through a blast-flattened forest, many fighting in vain to escape the fangvines wrapped around their legs."

NOWHERE DOES THIS SAY THAT THESE ARE AVATARS, THIS IS JUST HER CONTROLING THE ANIMAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT WAS ABELOTH'S PLANET HAS THE SAME EFFECT:
"The world is very hostile, completely unnatural. The animals thrive by photosynthesis, and the plants prey upon them." She gave Ben and Luke a half-smile. "Keeps you on your toes." "And Abeloth controls everything," Luke surmised. "She does."
-FOTJ: Allies

Why do the plants prey on animals? doesn't seem to be normal, and Abeloth is directly mentioned afterwards, saying she controls everything. I don't see a difference in the scans, nor do both of the scans directly say these are avatars.

I’m trying to split Pre-Imprisonment Abeloth and FOTJ Abeloth. Saying as I’m implying the actual weakening of her imprisonment went from 1-C to 4-A is disingenuous.

So you don't even understand what you claimed in the thread, this is precisely what you wrote:
FOTJ Scaling
Abeloth (Post-Release Physical Avatars), Luke Skywalker (FOTJ):

• Attack Potency: Solar System level
• Durability: Solar System level with Force Amplification
• Striking Strength: Solar System level with Force Amplification

She went from a Outerversal ED (pre-imprisonment) to solar system level (post-imprisonment). Please track.

So because there is a possibility of a difference in speed of weakening while Taalon was drastically reduced in a weak while Abeloth suffered the same effect for thousands of years, we should just pretend like she wouldn't be weakened at all?

To call this a stretch is an understatement.

Pretty ironic, considering most of your arguments for her being significantly weakened hinge on stretches and extrapolations of the text, but anyways:

The point of the contention was to establish neutrality, we can't ascertain if it would be exactly the same process or not per the delineation, I wasn't claiming that she wouldn't per say be weakened, although it's likely given that the font of power probably did give her some boost; it's just a huge "maybe".

????

Sinkhole was literally maintaining the Maw. It was right in the middle of it.

Not to mention the fact The Shelter was an entirely different station also in the middle of the Maw. That was the entire reason it was used as a hideout - navigating through the Maw was very difficult, making it very hard to find.

Send the Quotes. The galactic coordinate placement of both suggests otherwise. @Xavis10 probably has this.

Why would a leg injury nerf his Force amplification and thus his ability to react appropriately? Not to mention this is Legends where passive barriers exist.

Force amplification takes time, you can't just passively conjure force barriers with significant potency. Also, you omitted the details of Taalon's death, he was only killed by Vestara when Luke created a distraction by sending down a roof, which, due to his crippled leg, he would have to focus on escaping, which allowed her to strike him down in surprise, acting if this was a legitimate feat for vestara and hence being indicative of how much he has weakened is pretty disingenuous. Luke also played a role in attacking Taalon, it wasn't solely Ben and Vestara.

Dangers? Dread and discomfort was the only thing stated explicitly.

Maybe dangers wasn't the best choice, but you get the point anyways. It doesn't have to be explicitly said that it weakened them, we can infer that through what was said in the text.

 

[Epyriel]

So instead of providing substance in your contentions, you elect to not address multiple parts of the greater argument. This will be my last response and I'll just wait for the consensus, unless your next response actually addresses stuff.

As usual, half of your post is burning strawmen.

"..." is not a response, we are trying to ascertain where characters would tier, which requires thoughtful analysis, not dismissal. Anyways I'm pretty sure you find such a notion absurd, but to dismiss it on the basis of absurdity is fallacious. Star wars can have differing rules than the real world you know.

I’m dismissing it on the fact you have provided zero evidence for your absurd proposition.

This is your burden to prove, don’t act like I’m ignoring some masterful argument. You haven’t shown anything.

Plurality is not used to denote that more than one celestial achieved that feat, but rather it is among the race's accomplishments. Engineering also doesn't imply that there is more than one celestial which preformed said task. Not sure where you got that from.

Assuming one of the greatest achievements of the Celestials was engineered by a single person in limited enough time and resource to be scaleable to their personal AP and thus upscaling the Ones is an incredible stretch.

The burden is on you to prove they should scale to the Great Hyperspace Barrier, and all I’m seeing is a giant leap of logic.

The two sources which directly hold it above hyperspace/otherspace/realspace are:

1. Skywalker Family at War, which is canon (the "rules of time and space")

2. Nexus of Power, which doesn't defer to either continuity ("normal notions of time and space are meaningless")

Even without that, we have statements of Mortis being metaphysical, spiritual and "beyond/outside realspace", which should at least place it above Realspace, but both Hyperspace and Otherspace are physical constructs, so possibly them as well.

All of which is pointless without a way to actually scale to it as the quote about them forging the Mortis vergence is Canon only. All you have is the Mortis Gods coming to Mortis, living there, and then part of it collapsing after their death.

I'm well aware of what the word means. Respond to the argument.

Evidently not. Conceding means to “admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it”. If you think skipping over a part in your long ass paragraph by accident or ignoring it because I belive my prior response already addresses it is “conceding” then either you are rage-baiting or not understanding the words you are using.

That's nice and all but you still haven't addressed what I said at all, islands of flesh are not landmasses, nor does it say that the entire landmass degenerated into flesh, you made that up, also not sure how you correlated her face and possession, nothing indicates that, it can also equally be non-symbolic, but if it was symbolic of something then she was likely never that big in the first place. It's quite a leap to call her face hanging in the sky (even symbolically) indicative of possession. ATP you're going off of theory and not what the text says.

I already addressed the quantity of avatars argument, albeit indirectly, but both the murals and her planet depict the same amount of "plant/animal avatars" (assuming she was possessing the biosphere)

Yea, so you basically admit to being disingenuous, because if we pull up the quote:

"It was a ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh" not "it was a ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over what appeared to be landmasses degenerating into moldy flesh, due to the presence of the smiling face in the sky"

I am not saying rock is degenerating into Abeloth avatars I literally specified its biosphere. Islands covered in moldy flesh with Abeloth’s face symbolically presiding overhead is about as clear as the Killiks ever get. It is not describing altered plants or animals acting funny here, but literal mounds of flesh.

"In the first, a entire city lay in ruins. There were fungi rising from the rubble, and a drove of three-eyed bipeds could be seen fleeing a horde of tentacled felines"

"The second relief showed scores of dazed woodland creatures struggling through a blast-flattened forest, many fighting in vain to escape the fangvines wrapped around their legs."

NOWHERE DOES THIS SAY THAT THESE ARE AVATARS, THIS IS JUST HER CONTROLING THE ANIMAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT WAS ABELOTH'S PLANET HAS THE SAME EFFECT:
"The world is very hostile, completely unnatural. The animals thrive by photosynthesis, and the plants prey upon them." She gave Ben and Luke a half-smile. "Keeps you on your toes." "And Abeloth controls everything," Luke surmised. "She does."
-FOTJ: Allies

Why do the plants prey on animals? doesn't seem to be normal, and Abeloth is directly mentioned afterwards, saying she controls everything. I don't see a difference in the scans, nor do both of the scans directly say these are avatars.

I was referring to neither of those murals. Animal and plant control has nothing to do with this, these are obviously not avatars. Pretty sure I already made myself clear on this. This is only a buildup to the final mural.

So you don't even understand what you claimed in the thread, this is precisely what you wrote:
FOTJ Scaling
Abeloth (Post-Release Physical Avatars), Luke Skywalker (FOTJ):

• Attack Potency: Solar System level
• Durability: Solar System level with Force Amplification
• Striking Strength: Solar System level with Force Amplification

She went from a Outerversal ED (pre-imprisonment) to solar system level (post-imprisonment). Please track.

ED is not telekinetic AP. But as you are determined to be obtuse, this is what I said for before and after imprisonment:

Mortis Gods Physical Incarnation Scaling
The Father (Physical Incarnation), The Son (Physical Incarnation), The Daughter (Physical Incarnation), Abeloth (Pre-Imprisonment Physical Avatars):

• Attack Potency: Multi-Solar System level

FOTJ Scaling
Abeloth (Post-Release Physical Avatars), Luke Skywalker (FOTJ):

• Attack Potency: Solar System level

Pretty ironic, considering most of your arguments for her being significantly weakened hinge on stretches and extrapolations of the text, but anyways:

The point of the contention was to establish neutrality, we can't ascertain if it would be exactly the same process or not per the delineation, I wasn't claiming that she wouldn't per say be weakened, although it's likely given that the font of power probably did give her some boost; it's just a huge "maybe".

The idea that Abeloth was significantly weakened after thousands of years of isolation after defeat without feeding when Taalon couldn’t even endure it after so short a time is more than just a “maybe”. The only alternative theory you can offer about drastically different weakening periods is the only “huge maybe” on the subject. We have a very plausible explanation and a very doubtful alternative.

Send the Quotes. The galactic coordinate placement of both suggests otherwise. @Xavis10 probably has this.

His son Ben was light-years away, hidden out of sight—out of Yuuzhan Vong sight, but also out of his sight—in a secret Jedi base in the Maw, a region of space surrounded and concealed by black holes.

-NJO: Rebel Dream

In an artificial environment dome, part of an evergrowing station hidden away in the Maw, Valin Horn, Jedi apprentice, jerked awake so violently that he fell from his narrow couch. He sat up, trying to remember what nightmare had caused this reaction, but he couldn’t.

-NJO: Rebel Dream

Force amplification takes time, you can't just passively conjure force barriers with significant potency. Also, you omitted the details of Taalon's death, he was only killed by Vestara when Luke created a distraction by sending down a roof, which, due to his crippled leg, he would have to focus on escaping, which allowed her to strike him down in surprise, acting if this was a legitimate feat for vestara and hence being indicative of how much he has weakened is pretty disingenuous. Luke also played a role in attacking Taalon, it wasn't solely Ben and Vestara.

The fact Luke helped out at parts is irrelevant when the point is that in isolated instances Ben and Vestara could still genuinely compete on her own without any assistance. Being too slow to raise any appropriate defence against an opponent who should have far slower reactions isn’t helping his case.

 

[Xavis10]

I’m dismissing it on the fact you have provided zero evidence for your absurd proposition.

It's not absurd. I know there's a scan that says black holes work on supergravity as well, but don't have it at hand. Once I do, I'll edit this reply.

All of which is pointless without a way to actually scale to it as the quote about them forging the Mortis vergence is Canon only. All you have is the Mortis Gods coming to Mortis, living there, and then part of it collapsing after their death.

Correction: retreating to Mortis because their force power was too big for the temporal world to sustain.

"My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other. Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites."

"As a sanctuary?"

"And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

- The Clone Wars: Overlords

"Long ago, the Ones withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their Force powers."

- The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

They pretty blatantly scale above anything in the galaxy/universe via this. Oh, and now it is your own burden to prove that it was only part of Mortis that was destroyed. Because from what we see in TCW, all of it was destroyed upon the Father's death, hence why Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka were "expelled" back onto their ship.

I am not saying rock is degenerating into Abeloth avatars I literally specified its biosphere. Islands covered in moldy flesh with Abeloth’s face symbolically presiding overhead is about as clear as the Killiks ever get. It is not describing altered plants or animals acting funny here, but literal mounds of flesh.

Which still doesn't mean they're avatars of Abeloth.

The idea that Abeloth was significantly weakened after thousands of years of isolation after defeat without feeding when Taalon couldn’t even endure it after so short a time is more than just a “maybe”. The only alternative theory you can offer about drastically different weakening periods is the only “huge maybe” on the subject. We have a very plausible explanation and a very doubtful alternative.

It's not plausible at all, Sarasu still misses one clear and huge half of Abeloth's transformation.

 

[Epyriel]

Correction: retreating to Mortis because their force power was too big for the temporal world to sustain. They pretty blatantly scale above anything in the galaxy/universe via this.

Nothing he says there is at odds with the fact he is worried about their Force power’s typing the Force out of balance to catastrophic effect as he literally says in the very next line.

Oh, and now it is your own burden to prove that it was only part of Mortis that was destroyed. Because from what we see in TCW, all of it was destroyed upon the Father's death, hence why Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka were "expelled" back onto their ship.

A cutaway and fadeout is not us “seeing” anything. That is the same transition we get when they entered Mortis. And it is not my scale that is entirely dependent on a given outcome here.

Which still doesn't mean they're avatars of Abeloth.

Uh, yeah it does. Mounds of Abeloth-like flesh with her face parade over it is about as clear as the Killiks ever get in communicating ideas.

It's not plausible at all, Sarasu still misses one clear and huge half of Abeloth's transformation.

Then why do they spend an entire chapter having Abeloth say they are alike and then immediately proving herself right in curing his condition? With Luke himself saying it wouldn’t matter which of the two sources of power he used?

 

[OTG0001]

I’m dismissing it on the fact you have provided zero evidence for your absurd proposition.

This is your burden to prove, don’t act like I’m ignoring some masterful argument. You haven’t shown anything.

My fault then, I wrote that quite late at night, so I was probably tweaking, anyways here:

I'm sure you'll disagree with Dovin Basils being actual Black Holes knowing the rhetoric you people throw around, but it's pretty logical given the hypergems statement.

Assuming one of the greatest achievements of the Celestials was engineered by a single person in limited enough time and resource to be scaleable to their personal AP and thus upscaling the Ones is an incredible stretch.

The burden is on you to prove they should scale to the Great Hyperspace Barrier, and all I’m seeing is a giant leap of logic.

You're again misinterpreting, it's not really my burden to prove something that was already contended, and you haven't responded to the fact that "engineering" doesn't imply multiple celestials. There are unknowns, sure, but the Ones display far better feats and have a higher level of existence. Celestials are not called "beings of the force", they seemed rather physical as portrayed through Wutzek and the passage in the Essential Guide to Warfare.

I don't know if the feat should be interpreted as a "greatest achievement" seems as though you made that up, even if it was, such could be done by a singular Celestial. Even if it took time, the manipulation of hyperspace should still qualify for 6D hax.

All of which is pointless without a way to actually scale to it as the quote about them forging the Mortis vergence is Canon only. All you have is the Mortis Gods coming to Mortis, living there, and then part of it collapsing after their death.

Could have sworn Lephyr sent the proof of it being legends, but I guess I'll do it:

https://web.archive.org/web/2012070...rs.com/explore/encyclopedia/locations/mortis/

I am not saying rock is degenerating into Abeloth avatars I literally specified its biosphere. Islands covered in moldy flesh with Abeloth’s face symbolically presiding overhead is about as clear as the Killiks ever get. It is not describing altered plants or animals acting funny here, but literal mounds of flesh.

Let's do another lesson in reading the text!

"It was a ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh"

IT DOES NOT SAY "islands covered in moldy flesh" it says "floating islands of moldy flesh" believe it or not, that makes a huge difference, the former will definitely help your argument, but the latter is what the text says. Floating islands of moldy flesh can refer to any significant amount of flesh in said ocean, but it doesn't have to be island sized, like the former implies. NOTHING ALSO SAYS THE FLESH IS ABELOTH LIKE

YOU STILL HAVE NOT CONTENDED

- The fact that moldy flesh can be a byproduct of dead sea-creatures, not parts of Abeloth herself

- What relevancy does clumps of moldy flesh have in relation to Abeloth's biosphere control, as per the above.

I was referring to neither of those murals. Animal and plant control has nothing to do with this, these are obviously not avatars. Pretty sure I already made myself clear on this.

Oh okay, so now 2/3s of the evidence you have for the murals depicting a prime Abeloth goes down the drain, because they don't show true avatars. This plays into my point: THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT DILINEATION BETWEEN HER MAW SELF AND HER DEPICTED IN THE MURALS

The 3rd one is a incredibly weak point and I already addressed it, you just need to get it through your thick skull that you're making up things the text doesn't say, only to prove your twisted narrative.

ED is not telekinetic AP. But as you are determined to be obtuse, this is what I said for before and after imprisonment:

My bad then.

The idea that Abeloth was significantly weakened after thousands of years of isolation after defeat without feeding when Taalon couldn’t even endure it after so short a time is more than just a “maybe”. The only alternative theory you can offer about drastically different weakening periods is the only “huge maybe” on the subject. We have a very plausible explanation and a very doubtful alternative.

If he couldn't endure it, that unironically helps my argument, since to create a being as "stable" as Abeloth one has to drink from both pools. Taalon has more power than Abeloth did prior to her transformation; there should be no reason for him to struggle at all if one pool was enough.

His son Ben was light-years away, hidden out of sight—out of Yuuzhan Vong sight, but also out of his sight—in a secret Jedi base in the Maw, a region of space surrounded and concealed by black holes.

-NJO: Rebel Dream

In an artificial environment dome, part of an evergrowing station hidden away in the Maw, Valin Horn, Jedi apprentice, jerked awake so violently that he fell from his narrow couch. He sat up, trying to remember what nightmare had caused this reaction, but he couldn’t.

-NJO: Rebel Dream

First one doesn't mention any effect, but the context doesn't need to deviate towards talking about that, so that scan doesn't prove anything.

Second holds a bit more merit but doesn't really prove your point:

• The passage has no need to talk about the weakening of Force-Users.
• The nightmare implies a effect.
• Where in the maw is this station located?

The fact Luke helped out at parts is irrelevant when the point is that in isolated instances Vestara could still genuinely compete on her own without any assistance. Being too slow to raise any appropriate defence against an opponent who should have far slower reactions isn’t helping his case.

Clearly you've never been in a fight, but even the presence of a second individual can significantly exhaust your energy reserves, especially if it's Luke Skywalker, and he contributed quite a bit anyways.

You're right, she has far slower reactions, but Taalon is not paying attention, focused on the cave collapse, and has a injured leg which prevents him from dodging the collapse easily, which means his reactions are also hindered. Furthermore he would likely be concentrating on conjuring force barriers to protect against the collapse rather than focusing on Vestara who he didn't even notice.

 

[Epyriel]

My fault then, I wrote that quite late at night, so I was probably tweaking, anyways here:

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1332494864075587656/1361816260630937793/supergravity2.JPG?ex=6870d9f9&is=686f8879&hm=360203debadedd1de4e45500437c3b5b7bb40f23942b741a3d9f82cdb3470f75&=&format=webp

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1332494864075587656/1361816255111237752/supergravityhehehaw.JPG?ex=6870d9f8&is=686f8878&hm=4f100fed497d9ded6976cc922f0aba6d61613069d62df0120fad7eef6dcc9254&=&format=webp

I'm sure you'll disagree with Dovin Basils being actual Black Holes knowing the rhetoric you people throw around, but it's pretty logical given the hypergems statement.

Neither of those links work, but yes, artificial voids that can be destroyed by mere proton torpedoes are not real black holes.

You're again misinterpreting, it's not really my burden to prove something that was already contended, and you haven't responded to the fact that "engineering" doesn't imply multiple celestials. There are unknowns, sure, but the Ones display far better feats and have a higher level of existence. Celestials are not called "beings of the force", they seemed rather physical as portrayed through Wutzek and the passage in the Essential Guide to Warfare.

I don't know if the feat should be interpreted as a "greatest achievement" seems as though you made that up, even if it was, such could be done by a singular Celestial. Even if it took time, the manipulation of hyperspace should still qualify for 6D hax.

Engineering is general a group project yes, especially something on a galactic scale attributed to their entire race. The whole point of why it was built in the first place was to contain Mnggal-Mnggal who along with the World Razer were wrecking havoc on their entire civilization.

Could have sworn @LephyrTheRevanchist sent the proof of it being legends, but I guess I'll do it:

https://web.archive.org/web/2012070...rs.com/explore/encyclopedia/locations/mortis/

They sent a link to the canon Databank, not the Legends one. I was not aware the Legends Databank had such a statement.

Let's do another lesson in reading the text!

"It was a ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh"

IT DOES NOT SAY "islands covered in moldy flesh" it says "floating islands of moldy flesh" believe it or not, that makes a huge difference, the former will definitely help your argument, but the latter is what the text says. Floating islands of moldy flesh can refer to any significant amount of flesh in said ocean, but it doesn't have to be island sized, like the former implies.

YOU STILL HAVE NOT CONTENDED

- The fact that moldy flesh can be a byproduct of dead sea-creatures, not parts of Abeloth herself

- What relevancy does clumps of moldy flesh have in relation to Abeloth's biosphere control, as per the above.

Oh okay, so now 2/3s of the evidence you have for the murals depicting a prime Abeloth goes down the drain, because they don't show true avatars. This plays into my point: THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT DILINEATION BETWEEN HER MAW SELF AND HER DEPICTED IN THE MURALS

The 3rd one is a incredibly weak point and I already addressed it, you just need to get it through your thick skull that you're making up things the text doesn't say, only to prove your twisted narrative.

Let’s do another lesson in reading comprehension!

The Killiks are explicitly noted to represent their histories symbolically, and then represent a mural of “islands of moldy flesh” overshadowed by a giant face of Abeloth, symbolizing her presence and responsibility, and describing what remains in terms of her own flesh.

Dead sea creatures don’t become nothing but mold, this is an absurd excuse. Nor do they randomly clump in islands. In no other case does Abeloth merely kill everything and lump it together in a pile either.

So perhaps… just perhaps… the thing that looks like Abeloth’s flesh and is overshadowed by a very explicit symbol in Abloth’s face, might just be Abeloth as the text is painstakingly implying?

If he couldn't endure it, that unironically helps my argument, since to create a being as "stable" as Abeloth one has to drink from both pools.

This is baseless reaching for an excuse. Luke directly implies both sources result in the same effect and says nothing of drawing from both somehow reversing course to “stabilize” the one affected.

Taalon has more power than Abeloth did prior to her transformation; there should be no reason for him to struggle at all if one pool was enough.

This is baseless.

First one doesn't mention any effect, but the context doesn't need to deviate towards talking about that, so that scan doesn't prove anything.

Second holds a bit more merit but doesn't really prove your point:

• The passage has no need to talk about the weakening of Force-Users.
• The nightmare implies a effect.
• Where in the maw is this station located

You are moving the goalposts. You asked for proof the Shelter was in the Maw. I gave it.

Since you seem unware, the entire plot point surrounding the Shelter is that it is an old sceret weapons facility built by the empire to conceal their construction of superweapon prototypes by hiding them in the Maw which is near impossible to access without knowing the exact safe routes to get there in between all the black holes. This is then later retrofitted as a Jedi hideout and is similarly occupied for years on end in between all the black holes for the sake of secrecy.

They are in the Maw, surrounded by black holes. That is the entire point of the station.

Clearly you've never been in a fight, but even the presence of a second individual can significantly exhaust your energy reserves, especially if it's Luke Skywalker, and he contributed quite a bit anyways.

You're right, she has far slower reactions, but Taalon is not paying attention, focused on the cave collapse, and has a injured leg which prevents him from dodging the collapse easily, which means his reactions are also hindered. Furthermore he would likely be concentrating on conjuring force barriers to protect against the collapse rather than focusing on Vestara who he didn't even notice.

He was literally getting soloed by Ben Skywalker and getting ragdolled by Vestara completely independent of Luke who was busy fighting Abeloth.

The snap-hiss of an igniting lightsaber confirmed that Ben understood what Luke intended. By the time Luke had his own weapon in hand, his son was Force-leaping into combat, his blue blade tracing an arc that an exhausted and weakened Taalon would be hard-pressed to avoid.

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

The crackle of Force lightning rang out from the door, where Vestara was standing. Ben cried out in surprise and anguish, then two distinct thuds sounded behind Luke, his son slamming into one wall and Taalon into another. A terrific pop echoed across the hall, and Taalon bellowed in pain.

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Not to mention how effortlessly Luke was ragdolling him whenever he did get involved, with Abeloth needing to save Taalon before Luke could finish him.

 

[OTG0001]

Check the updated post, it should show the images now, I'll respond later.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

They sent a link to the canon Databank, not the Legends one. I was not aware the Legends Databank had such a statement.

You skipped my update then

Update: I was given awareness of the the following which would indeed put the article before the disney buy (based on the date of archival).


So now that I can actually answer this: While ambiguous on literal creation, the following:

Would still fit with the significantly affecting definition of our tiering system, thus an applicable AP feat.

Their sustaining the realm or not is of lesser import imo, as their struggle in the end still turned the place into the "fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force" (which then we are given an explanation in the episode, with Obi-Wan stating: "The Planet is the Force")

Sadly we will more than likely disagree with the interpretation, but that's fine with me

 

[Epyriel]

You skipped my update then

Yeah I didn’t see that, my bad.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Xavis and OTG make far more sense personally, but I will continue to hear both sides out. I don't think the interpretation of Abeloth at Solar System level is thorough or reasonable at all, as already explained.

Edit: To emphasize what has already been discussed, a lot of this ignores an ungodly amount of context. I agree with the Mortis Anakin and Beyond Shadows stuff, and that's pretty much it.

 

[Xavis10]

Nothing he says there is at odds with the fact he is worried about their Force power’s typing the Force out of balance to catastrophic effect as he literally says in the very next line.

Their Force Power, correct. Which wouldn't tip balance off if it was just multi solar system.

A cutaway and fadeout is not us “seeing” anything. That is the same transition we get when they entered Mortis. And it is not my scale that is entirely dependent on a given outcome here.

Cutaway? Fadeout? Did we not see the same? Because I clearly saw floating rocks beginning to fall, ground cracking, the Monolith collapse, the crystal above the Monolith fall and break and, right afterwards, energy emanating from it that destroyed Mortis. All of which happened right after the Father died.

Uh, yeah it does. Mounds of Abeloth-like flesh with her face parade over it is about as clear as the Killiks ever get in communicating ideas.

Abeloth-like flesh? No. Nothing there is "Abeloth-like", she's never described like that, where did you take that notion from? Besides, it's not like the Killiks are very accurate with their history. I mean, they're a hive mind stated to be sometimes unable to discern fantasy from reality. What's to tell me that the face over the planets and her supposed "biosphere control" isn't just a fictitious description of a real story of Abeloth wreaking havoc on a world?

Then why do they spend an entire chapter having Abeloth say they are alike and then immediately proving herself right in curing his condition? With Luke himself saying it wouldn’t matter which of the two sources of power he used?

Why would Abeloth be unable to heal him? He still has half of her equation, plus she's much more powerful and has a wider skillset, don't know what's so surprising here. And what authority is Luke on that? Why would he know how the two most powerful force nexuses in the universe, which empowered the Mortis Gods (you know, actual "gods" far removed from mortals [powerful as he is] like Luke), work when he never bathed and/or drunk from either? Taalon would have a more credible "authority" on the matter.

 

[Epyriel]

Their Force Power, correct. Which wouldn't tip balance off if it was just multi solar system.

Indeed not, but Outerversal Environmental Destruction would more than do the job. Telekinesis on that level would be redundant.

Cutaway? Fadeout? Did we not see the same? Because I clearly saw floating rocks beginning to fall, ground cracking, the Monolith collapse, the crystal above the Monolith fall and break and, right afterwards, energy emanating from it that destroyed Mortis. All of which happened right after the Father died.

Huh? No it doesn’t, that was just The Father’s temple, not the monolith. The crystal above the temple shatters, a couple rocks fall, and then there is an immediate white flash that fades back to a cutaway of them waking up back on their ship.

Abeloth-like flesh? No. Nothing there is "Abeloth-like", she's never described like that, where did you take that notion from? Besides, it's not like the Killiks are very accurate with their history. I mean, they're a hive mind stated to be sometimes unable to discern fantasy from reality. What's to tell me that the face over the planets and her supposed "biosphere control" isn't just a fictitious description of a real story of Abeloth wreaking havoc on a world?

Islands of moldy flesh with her face in the sky would be a really weird way to represent her merely destroying a place. A bit of fire amidst a depiction similar to what she did to Coruscant would manage that far more clearly and straight forwardly. Decaying flesh like that matches what happens when she uses up an avatar like with Roki Kem’s body that she needed to trade for Lydea Pagorski. Especially when the murals seem to tell a story of the gradual steps of her takeover, from mere animals and plants being controlled and growing tentacles until nothing is left but mounds of Abeloth’s flesh like in the third world.

Why would Abeloth be unable to heal him? He still has half of her equation, plus she's much more powerful and has a wider skillset, don't know what's so surprising here. And what authority is Luke on that? Why would he know how the two most powerful force nexuses in the universe, which empowered the Mortis Gods (you know, actual "gods" far removed from mortals [powerful as he is] like Luke), work when he never bathed and/or drunk from either? Taalon would have a more credible "authority" on the matter.

This misses the point. Abeloth is explicitly describing how it is feeding on the fear of mortals itself that is restoring his power, and how he should have been doing so himself all along, pointing out the shared mechanism for how their power works. As for Luke, he has been around and analyzed both sources as well as being there to witness and sense what happened to Taalon himself.

 

[Epyriel]

Honestly feels like all this arguing is sane-washing the absurd idea that FOTJ Abeloth is some Complex Multiversal unstoppable god equal to the Mortis Gods by people that have not read FOTJ.

This is the same Abeloth that got damaged by dozens of different characters all throughout the series, and even her strongest avatar was thought by Luke and the military to be killable by a mundane Baradium strike.

 

[ZTG0709]

Honestly feels like all this arguing is sane-washing the absurd idea that FOTJ Abeloth is some Complex Multiversal unstoppable god equal to the Mortis Gods by people that have not read FOTJ.

You should explain how they possess 1-C Environment Destruction, since it would be contradictory to their AP considering the fact both comes from the same source .

 

[Epyriel]

You should explain how they possess 1-C Environment Destruction, since it would be contradictory to their AP considering the fact both comes from the same source .

FOTJ Abeloth doesn’t have Tier 1 ED. That is for Pre-Imprisonment Abeloth and the actual Mortis Gods.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Honestly feels like all this arguing is sane-washing the absurd idea that FOTJ Abeloth is some Complex Multiversal unstoppable god equal to the Mortis Gods by people that have not read FOTJ.

This is just irrelevant to your argument. No need to accuse people of having not read FOTJ, when clearly that is not the case given the ability to even conversate about the topic.

 

[Epyriel]

This is just irrelevant to your argument. No need to accuse people of having not read FOTJ, when clearly that is not the case given the ability to even conversate about the topic.

It is precisely this conversation that makes such seem likely. Like the points about Abeloth’s conversation with Taalon in Vortex, or Ben’s duel with him only being a matter of a leg injury, or the entire backstory of the Shelter in NJO, or Sinkhole Station in Omen and Abyss.

Like these are things that genuinely only come up if your only point of reference is snippets of scans online.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

It is precisely this conversation that makes such seem likely. Like the points about Abeloth’s conversation with Taalon in Vortex, or Ben’s duel with him only being a matter of a leg injury, or the entire backstory of the Shelter in NJO, or Sinkhole Station in Omen and Abyss.

Like these are things that genuinely only come up if your only point of reference is snippets of scans online.

Epyriel, all I am expressing is that the comment is pointless to the CRT. I am sure the other side, if equally frustrated, feels the same way about your interpretations, but clearly it would be wrong to discredit either of your opinions on that basis. You have your interpretation, as do others. No bad blood!

Also, I am not sure if the flesh point is super duper important to the overall CRT tbh

 

[Xavis10]

Indeed not, but Outerversal Environmental Destruction would more than do the job. Telekinesis on that level would be redundant.

Except there's no basis to separate their ED and their TK. Except in their physical incarnations, which are pretty blatantly 1-C. Saying they're below Centerpoint Station is just ignoring the narrative.

Huh? No it doesn’t, that was just The Father’s temple, not the monolith. The crystal above the temple shatters, a couple rocks fall, and then there is an immediate white flash that fades back to a cutaway of them waking up back on their ship.

The intent is pretty evident, it got destroyed.

Islands of moldy flesh with her face in the sky would be a really weird way to represent her merely destroying a place. A bit of fire amidst a depiction similar to what she did to Coruscant would manage that far more clearly and straight forwardly. Decaying flesh like that matches what happens when she uses up an avatar like with Roki Kem’s body that she needed to trade for Lydea Pagorski. Especially when the murals seem to tell a story of the gradual steps of her takeover, from mere animals and plants being controlled and growing tentacles until nothing is left but mounds of Abeloth’s flesh like in the third world.

Whether it'd be more straightforward or not is irrelevant, the fact remains - the Killiks are not the most accurate source. Again, what grants me she took full control? Furthermore, nothing supports the things on those worlds being actual avatars - could just be under her influence.

This misses the point. Abeloth is explicitly describing how it is feeding on the fear of mortals itself that is restoring his power, and how he should have been doing so himself all along, pointing out the shared mechanism for how their power works. As for Luke, he has been around and analyzed both sources as well as being there to witness and sense what happened to Taalon himself.

That still doesn't make Luke an authority on how they work. Besides, Taalon's weakness, which Abeloth never displayed herself (at least not to the same degree) could, again, be due to his lack of the other half.

In any one case, this is not really relevant for the argument as a whole, the only thing that actually matters is Abeloth's supposed great disparity from the Mortis Gods.

 

[Xavis10]

This is the same Abeloth that got damaged by dozens of different characters all throughout the series, and even her strongest avatar was thought by Luke and the military to be killable by a mundane Baradium strike.

What they think or don't think is irrelevant. It didn't happen.

 

[Epyriel]

Except there's no basis to separate their ED and their TK. Except in their physical incarnations, which are pretty blatantly 1-C. Saying they're below Centerpoint Station is just ignoring the narrative.

Really? The fact that Abeloth couldn’t escape the gravitational pull of black holes or the tractor beams of Centerpoint Station? A station explicitly stated to be the greatest force in the galaxy? The fact that even The Father was worried about mere mortals somehow exploiting 1-C characters?

The intent is pretty evident, it got destroyed.

What got destroyed? The Temple, the planet, the entire realm and monolith, or the vergence itself? Considering even in-universe characters with the same knowledge suspect not everything was destroyed, this seems dubious to uphold. Regardless, stabilization feats by default are treated much the same as creation feats in the sense that unless you can prove it should correlate to their generalized AP (in this case their telekinesis) it is treated as Environmental Destruction.

Whether it'd be more straightforward or not is irrelevant, the fact remains - the Killiks are not the most accurate source. Again, what grants me she took full control? Furthermore, nothing supports the things on those worlds being actual avatars - could just be under her influence.

Things merely under her influence have never progressively turned into her own flesh after growing similar tentacles. Her own domain on her planet in the Maw illustrates the difference, despite all the plants and animals being subject to her influence, none of them are growing eldritch tentacles or blobbing together or assimilating to form singular piles of flesh.

That still doesn't make Luke an authority on how they work.

There is no reason to think he is wrong. He has had plenty of time to analyze them and observe their effects first hand.

Besides, Taalon's weakness, which Abeloth never displayed herself (at least not to the same degree) could, again, be due to his lack of the other half.

In any one case, this is not really relevant for the argument as a whole, the only thing that actually matters is Abeloth's supposed great disparity from the Mortis Gods.

Going from relative to the Mortis Gods to competing with hoards of weak Sith is quite the weakening would match Taalon’s decay when denied proper feeding.

And yeah, repeatedly running from and getting hurt by mortals and having lesser avatars killed left and right by weak, sometimes even non-force sensitive characters, is quite the disparity.

What they think or don't think is irrelevant. It didn't happen.

The fact that Luke, who is currently scaled to Abeloth and repeatedly faced off against her strongest avatars, doesn’t see an issue with killing her using a Baradium strike isn’t relevant? Forgive me if I rather doubt the idea of 1-C characters being weak to sub-planetary explosions.

 

[Xavis10]

Really? The fact that Abeloth couldn’t escape the gravitational pull of black holes or the tractor beams of Centerpoint Station? A station explicitly stated to be the greatest force in the galaxy? The fact that even The Father was worried about mere mortals somehow exploiting 1-C characters?

It being due to the gravitational pull is dubious. And that station being stated as "the greatest force in the galaxy" is obviously false, as a higher canon attributes that status to the Mortis Gods. Other statements, previously provided in this thread, also support that, so Centerpoint > Mortis Gods is immediately discarded.

And he is never shown to be worried about "mere mortals exploiting them", he just says "there are those who would like to exploit our power", never did he say that in the context of being worried, or even had the slightest tone of worry. The only time he displayed such a tone is when he explicitly mentioned their force powers to be too great for the temporal world without ripping it apart/tearing its fabric. Which, again, correlates with 1-C.

What got destroyed? The Temple, the planet, the entire realm and monolith, or the vergence itself? Considering even in-universe characters with the same knowledge suspect not everything was destroyed, this seems dubious to uphold.

If it was the vergence, then even better. We see it being destroyed in the episode, there's really no way around it. That's 1-C.

Regardless, stabilization feats by default are treated much the same as creation feats in the sense that unless you can prove it should correlate to their generalized AP (in this case their telekinesis) it is treated as Environmental Destruction.

Why would it not? The same power the Father uses to uphold Mortis is the same one he uses in his day-to-day. It's still force power.

Things merely under her influence have never progressively turned into her own flesh after growing similar tentacles. Her own domain on her planet in the Maw illustrates the difference, despite all the plants and animals being subject to her influence, none of them are growing eldritch tentacles or blobbing together or assimilating to form singular piles of flesh.

It just says some "islands of mouldy flesh" are there, still nothing about her controlling that in the sense of them being an avatar. Regardless of this, again, the size of her avatars ≠ her own power. We only know that when an avatar dies, "the limits of her power diminish", which makes sense, she lost an extension of herself. Her own personal power does not hinge on this.

There is no reason to think he is wrong. He has had plenty of time to analyze them and observe their effects first hand.

You seem to have a different definition than what I do on what an authority in a subject is, and that neither of us will change. Regardless, I'm still not convinced his word should be taken at face value as he himself never "took in" any effects of either, or both, nexuses.

Going from relative to the Mortis Gods to competing with hoards of weak Sith is quite the weakening would match Taalon’s decay when denied proper feeding.

"Competing" she stomped all but the actual important (high tier) ones. Doesn't match it at all.

The fact that Luke, who is currently scaled to Abeloth and repeatedly faced off against her strongest avatars, doesn’t see an issue with killing her using a Baradium strike isn’t relevant? Forgive me if I rather doubt the idea of 1-C characters being weak to sub-planetary explosions.

If it did not happen, there is no way to ascertain if this is true or not, hence it isn't relevant. Luke being scaled to Abeloth isn't really a factor here, as she's repeatedly stated as much stronger than him, other high tiers describe her powers as "beyond comprehension", so on and so forth. This to illustrate the clear disparity between them.

 

[Epyriel]

It being due to the gravitational pull is dubious. And that station being stated as "the greatest force in the galaxy" is obviously false, as a higher canon attributes that status to the Mortis Gods. Other statements, previously provided in this thread, also support that, so Centerpoint > Mortis Gods is immediately discarded.

That’s the whole point of the prison. A bunch of black holes and tractor beams, neither of which are higher than 4-A, could hold Abeloth for thousands of years.

And TCW hypes up the Mortis Gods as the strongest Force users, it never implies they are beyond the same setup as Abeloth.

And he is never shown to be worried about "mere mortals exploiting them", he just says "there are those who would like to exploit our power", never did he say that in the context of being worried, or even had the slightest tone of worry. The only time he displayed such a tone is when he explicitly mentioned their force powers to be too great for the temporal world without ripping it apart/tearing its fabric. Which, again, correlates with 1-C.

He says it in the same context as their unrestrained Force powers. And tearing at the fabric of Realspace is even less of a 1-C feat than Sidious’s wormholes which were at least confirmed to be Hyperspace in origin.

If it was the vergence, then even better. We see it being destroyed in the episode, there's really no way around it. That's 1-C.

What, the random crystal and Temple are now 1-C? The realm is never confirmed to be gone, and even in-universe they suspect the monolith and dagger survived.

Why would it not? The same power the Father uses to uphold Mortis is the same one he uses in his day-to-day. It's still force power.

Stabilization feats and creation feats more broadly are not necessarily treated by fiction as correlating to the same output as other abilities that the same character might have.

It just says some "islands of mouldy flesh" are there, still nothing about her controlling that in the sense of them being an avatar. Regardless of this, again, the size of her avatars ≠ her own power. We only know that when an avatar dies, "the limits of her power diminish", which makes sense, she lost an extension of herself. Her own personal power does not hinge on this.

As I have gone over half a dozen times at this point, a progression of control and takeover highlighted by her own face symbolized as responsible seems pretty implicit as to what is going on, in no other case does thing merely affected by her influence take on a similar fleshy form.

And yes, the quantity of avatars is very explicitly tied to her current power. The whole point of the conversation in Apocalypse is explaining why she doesn’t make a hundred avatars. It is because she can’t. The scope of her avatars is directly correlated to her current power:

“And if there can be three parts, why not four?” asked Nek. “Why not five, or a hundred, scattered across the entire galaxy?” “Because all of Abeloth’s bodies are part of one Force entity, yes?” Barratk’l asked in her gravelly voice. “She has grown much in power since we discovered her, but each time we kill a part, she is weakened. So there are limits. As she grows stronger, those limits rise. And now she has three bodies.” “That we know of,” Kyle reminded her. “Yes, but there is a correlation, or she would not need to hide from us when a part of her has been killed,” Barratk’l said.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

"Competing" she stomped all but the actual important (high tier) ones. Doesn't match it at all.

The Callista avatar in Allies was struggling against Luke and Taalon’s frontline team that unluded a couple nameless Sith Sabers who could still compete and prove a threat.

The psychic avatar in Ascension got seriously wounded by Darish Vol alone.

The weaker Roki Kem avatar died to mere blaster fire.

The weaker Pagorski avatar got killed by Tahiri and Boba Fett.

The computer core avatar got soloed by Saba Sebatyne.

If FOTJ Abeloth had 1-C durability, all of these characters should fall infinitely short of being able to do her any harm.

If it did not happen, there is no way to ascertain if this is true or not, hence it isn't relevant. Luke being scaled to Abeloth isn't really a factor here, as she's repeatedly stated as much stronger than him, other high tiers describe her powers as "beyond comprehension", so on and so forth. This to illustrate the clear disparity between them.

A character who can harm a 1-C character and is fully versed in their strength should never in a million years contemplate the possibility of a mundane explosion being capable of doing them harm.

Tier 1 deals with orders of infinity, so you can’t even appeal to downscaling Luke as an excuse.

 

[Xavis10]

That’s the whole point of the prison. A bunch of black holes and tractor beams, neither of which are higher than 4-A, could hold Abeloth for thousands of years.

Again, doubtful it was the gravitational pull. At least by itself. I remind you that black holes, in SW:EU, are higher dimensional in nature and restrictors of the Living Force.

And TCW hypes up the Mortis Gods as the strongest Force users, it never implies they are beyond the same setup as Abeloth.

Never did I say they were beyond Abeloth. In fact, they are quite similar in power level, with Abeloth being stated as "not quite on their power level", the "quite" indicating a not so big gap.

He says it in the same context as their unrestrained Force powers. And tearing at the fabric of Realspace is even less of a 1-C feat than Sidious’s wormholes which were at least confirmed to be Hyperspace in origin.

Realspace? No, he said temporal world, which is (Real+Hyper+Other)space. Plus, Mortis being described as abstract, metaphysical and 'outside the temporal worlds' is a higher existence level.

What, the random crystal and Temple are now 1-C? The realm is never confirmed to be gone, and even in-universe they suspect the monolith and dagger survived.

Why are you assuming the crystal is the vergence when that is never stated? In fact, the Monolith is much more likely to be the vergence.

"Mortis was not strictly in Wild Space, but the vergence that led to its plane of existence was."
- Clone Wars Explanations

And their suspicions mean nothing when they don't have certainties. Besides, we actually do have something else supporting Mortis' destruction, this one had slipped past me.

<<Luke nodded. “Of course,” he said. “But there isn’t a lot to tell. In Yoda’s story, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker encountered the Father when he was dying. The Son and the Daughter were at odds because the Son wanted to take the Father’s place. The Father told Anakin that he had been chosen to assume the Father’s place—and keep the balance between the two siblings. When Anakin refused, matters came to a head. The Ones fought, all three were slain, and their world died with them.”>>

- From (Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse)

Stabilization feats and creation feats more broadly are not necessarily treated by fiction as correlating to the same output as other abilities that the same character might have.

You're right, they're not. There is no reason, however, to consider it doesn't here, especially when The Ones' powers are very explicitly stated to be superior to what the lower realms can hold. Besides, UES would make their AP scale to this, naturally, where not contradicted. And indeed, nothing contradicts it.

And yes, the quantity of avatars is very explicitly tied to her current power. The whole point of the conversation in Apocalypse is explaining why she doesn’t make a hundred avatars. It is because she can’t. The scope of her avatars is directly correlated to her current power

To me, this seems more like her being weakened in the sense she lost an extension, but I digress.

The Callista avatar in Allies was struggling against Luke and Taalon’s frontline team that unluded a couple nameless Sith Sabers who could still compete and prove a threat.

They're not necessarily weak + the team still had those two.

The psychic avatar in Ascension got seriously wounded by Dorish Vol alone.

A high tier.

The weaker Roki Kem avatar died to mere blaster fire.

Fair, outlier then.

The weaker Pagorski avatar got killed by Tahiri and Boba Fett.

A weaker avatar got killed by an upper mid tier (for that era) who has her abilities on the same dimensional scope as Abeloth's own level of existence with some help by Boba*

The computer core avatar got soloed by Saba Sebatyne.

Not a low tier, or even mid tier.

If FOTJ Abeloth had 1-C durability, all of these characters should fall infinitely short of being able to do her any harm.

You forget that virtually every Force User has higher dimensional abilities/hax (discussed in the last thread). It is not surprising that they'd be able to affect her to some degree.

A character who can harm a 1-C character and is fully versed in their strength should never in a million years contemplate the possibility of a mundane explosion being capable of doing them harm.

Then again, Luke is not "fully versed" in Abeloth's strength.

 

[Epyriel]

Again, doubtful it was the gravitational pull. At least by itself. I remind you that black holes, in SW:EU, are higher dimensional in nature and restrictors of the Living Force.

This is an incredibly dubious cop-out. Their effect as “restrictors of the Living Force” wasn’t even enough to weaken mere Force sensitive children by any noticeable degree, just make them uncomfortable.

Nothing implies they are higher-dimensional in any meaningful way as to their effect on others.

Never did I say they were beyond Abeloth. In fact, they are quite similar in power level, with Abeloth being stated as "not quite on their power level", the "quite" indicating a not so big gap.

That’s not what I said. Nothing implies they are beyond the same setup that kept Abeloth imprisoned for thousands of years on end.

Realspace? No, he said temporal world, which is (Real+Hyper+Other)space. Plus, Mortis being described as abstract, metaphysical and 'outside the temporal worlds' is a higher existence level.

The statement itself just says tearing at the fabric of the universe with no further specification for higher dimensions.

Meanwhile the Father’s statement about their retreat from the ‘temporal world’ just means Mortis is a timeless pocket dimension (or at least operating on a separate time that doesn’t clock in beat with the rest of the verse seeing as how no time passed when the Jedi returned to their ship). This does not imply some higher existence.

Why are you assuming the crystal is the vergence when that is never stated? In fact, the Monolith is much more likely to be the vergence.

???

I am saying the crystal and the temple are the only things we see destroyed and they are unlikely to be 1-C.

And their suspicions mean nothing when they don't have certainties. Besides, we actually do have something else supporting Mortis' destruction, this one had slipped past me.

This is a double standard. “I get to assume with certainty I am correct when in character beliefs support my position, but when they contradict it their beliefs mean nothing”.

Luke is the same guy who thinks parts of Mortis survived. You can’t say his conviction means nothing and then turn around and say him saying their ‘world’ was destroyed is absolute proof of everything being no more.

You're right, they're not. There is no reason, however, to consider it doesn't here, especially when The Ones' powers are very explicitly stated to be superior to what the lower realms can hold. Besides, UES would make their AP scale to this, naturally, where not contradicted. And indeed, nothing contradicts it.

No, it is only on Mortis where The Father can safely control them. And their abilities to influence the balance of the Force and stabilize pocket dimensions as avatars of various aspects of the Force are far outside the scope and mechanisms of how regular Force users drawn on the Force. And yes, every instance of their actual telekinesis contradicts it.

To me, this seems more like her being weakened in the sense she lost an extension, but I digress.

Yes. She is weakened when she loses an avatar, and the number of avatars she can make correlates to her current power. There is no getting around that.

They're not necessarily weak + the team still had those two.


A high tier.


Fair, outlier then.


A weaker avatar got killed by an upper mid tier (for that era) who has her abilities on the same dimensional scope as Abeloth's own level of existence with some help by Boba*


Not a low tier, or even mid tier.


You forget that virtually every Force User has higher dimensional abilities/hax (discussed in the last thread). It is not surprising that they'd be able to affect her to some degree.

At this point you might as well try to make every character in the verse 1-C.

The fact the Force is higher dimensional means nothing when the character drawing a fraction of it cannot evoke power of that scale. All of these characters would fall infinitely short AP wise unless they were also 1-C.

Then again, Luke is not "fully versed" in Abeloth's strength.

He is fully versed in FOTJ Abeloth’s strength. He has fought her repeatedly in almost every book she makes an appearance in, and has killed multiple avatars. There is zero reason for him to underestimate her durability by several factors of infinity.