The Death of Mystery (Infinity in Type-Moon).

[Tipoima]

Regarding "Olympians being sent from another universe":

I just don't think this is how they'd be described if it was actually intended for them to be from another universe. Usually, travel is defined by its biggest part. Even if they were launched in a one-way trip, I'd still expect them to be called "interdimensional fleet" or something of the sort, but they really are consistently described as "interstellar".
Ares refers to Chaos itself as an "interstellar mothership" too, just like the rest of them are called "interstellar fleet".

Other wording choices:

Europa

かの神の視座はゼウスより遙かに大きく、 おそらく、わたくしたちを認識してはいないのでしょう。

Chaos perceives the universe on a vastly greater scale than Zeus. I suspect they are not even aware of us.

Musashi

アレはあっち側の大伽藍だいがらんで、 本来、こっち側には干渉しないもの。

That overgrown temple up there usually sticks to its own side of the universe and never interferes with ours, right?

I don't think Chaos "becoming one with the gaps of our universe's spacetime" is contradicting it still being from the same universe. There are plenty of things outside spacetime in FGO

 

[Wankbreaker]

on the point of infinity not existing….

Tsuki no Sango

Even in the metaphysical world, there is nothing truly infinite in this universe. We live in a closed universe, and at the end, balance will ensure that everything will to return to nothingness.

This posits two things.

1. Infinity is already assumed to not assume to exist in the physical world, thus “even in the metaphysical world”

2. “Metaphysical” things are stated to not be truly infinite, either.

 

[Tipoima]

Tsuki no Sango

Does it count as part of Nasuverse, even? While Nasu being explicit in his philosophical takes is neat, I'm not sure if this can really be considered evidence.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Does it count as part of Nasuverse, even? While Nasu being explicit in his philosophical takes is neat, I'm not sure if this can really be considered evidence.

Q: The concept of Tsuki no Sango is the "degenerated what if scenario" of Tsukihime 3000, but is Tsuki no Sango a potential future of Tsukihime universe?

A: Tsuki no Sango is a world where the events of Tsukihime did not occur. Different from EXTRA's "what if" scenario, the one of Tsuki no Sango is "a degenerated world where magecraft yet lingers". Tsuki no Sango has a Land of Steel type of world.


The only nasu written works that are NOT part of the Type-Moon setting are Canaan and Shibuya Scramble.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Does it count as part of Nasuverse, even? While Nasu being explicit in his philosophical takes is neat, I'm not sure if this can really be considered evidence.

Yes, I'm not replying to any of the mess above. But Tsuki no Sango was made specifically for 10th anniversary of Tsuki and it was stated it takes place in a world where the events of Tsuki don't occur.

The only nasu written works that are NOT part of the Type-Moon setting are Canaan and Shibuya Scramble.

HSR collab
We'll see.

 

[Ethan37]

Chaos is literally a mothership FOR interstellar travel.

星間航行用超巨大母艦・天球型時空要塞力才ス Interstellar Navigation-Purpose Ultra-Massive Carrier / Celestial Sphere Type Space-Time Fortress, Chaos

Chaos was originally designed as an ark to enable a species to settle on another planet. However, due to unknown circumstances at an unspecified time, the aliens perished, and Chaos continued its journey without inhabitants. Eventually, it encountered what could be described as a boundary, beyond which lay the universal framework in which Earth exists. In the Lostbelt storyline, Aphrodite mentions something called the Tannhauser Boundary, which might be the very boundary that Chaos discovered.
And by utilizing approximately 97% of its capabilities, Chaos managed to transport a small fleet of ships through this boundary. This fleet, which came to be known as the Titans, was led by the flagship Chronos.

The “universe” part is almost certainly talking about it escaping its native solar system to ride in the sea of stars (space)

Where did you get that?
escaping its native solar system to ride in the sea of stars
Never heard about that in the stories,
Rather they were actually seems to came from a different space time continuum which they mention as outer universe here

Compared to we children of Chaos...
We who crossed the sea of stars, and even know the whereabouts of the glittering Tannhäuser mirror world plane in the outer universe...

 

[Wankbreaker]

星間航行用超巨大母艦・天球型時空要塞力才ス Interstellar Navigation-Purpose Ultra-Massive Carrier / Celestial Sphere Type Space-Time Fortress, Chaos

Chaos was originally designed as an ark to enable a species to settle on another planet. However, due to unknown circumstances at an unspecified time, the aliens perished, and Chaos continued its journey without inhabitants. Eventually, it encountered what could be described as a boundary, beyond which lay the universal framework in which Earth exists. In the Lostbelt storyline, Aphrodite mentions something called the Tannhauser Boundary, which might be the very boundary that Chaos discovered.
And by utilizing approximately 97% of its capabilities, Chaos managed to transport a small fleet of ships through this boundary. This fleet, which came to be known as the Titans, was led by the flagship Chronos.

Where did you get that?
escaping its native solar system to ride in the sea of stars
Never heard about that in the stories,
Rather they were actually seems to came from a different space time continuum which they mention as outer universe here

『星々の海を渡り』
『外宇宙の彼方に煌めくタンホイザー境界面！
　その在処さえ知る、我ら、カオスの子らにとっては！』

"Crossing the sea of stars,
to the Tannhauser Boundary ablaze in the depths of outer space!
For we, the Children of Chaos, know its whereabouts!"

Nothing about this implies another universe.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

『星々の海を渡り』
『外宇宙の彼方に煌めくタンホイザー境界面！
　その在処さえ知る、我ら、カオスの子らにとっては！』

"Crossing the sea of stars,
to the Tannhauser Boundary ablaze in the depths of outer space!
For we, the Children of Chaos, know its whereabouts!"

Nothing about this implies another universe.

宇宙 can also be read as universe.

 

[Wankbreaker]

宇宙 can also be read as universe.

I’ll just paste what I said on discord, here


“外宇宙” is either outer space, or the TM term outer universe (which contextually, means almost the exact same thing)

But either way, it’s more likely to mean outer space, as they described traveling the sea of stars before reaching the boundary (which the sea of stars is literally just outer space)

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I agree with the premise of the thread, but also on the topic of the "Uchuu" kanji. 宇宙 is more often than not interpreted as "Universe", despite it also meaning "Outer Space", but since it's Gaiuchuu it just means outer space.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I agree with the premise of the thread, but also on the topic of the "Uchuu" kanji. 宇宙 is more often than not interpreted as "Universe", despite it also meaning "Outer Space", but since it's Gaiuchuu it just means outer space.

Both are correct in this instance.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

on the point of infinity not existing….

Tsuki no Sango



This posits two things.

1. Infinity is already assumed to not assume to exist in the physical world, thus “even in the metaphysical world”

2. “Metaphysical” things are stated to not be truly infinite, either.

The video have the respective quote in question upon doing some digging into.

This quote combined with all the other evidence make me agree with the OP regarding Nasuverse’s shenanigans

 

[Wankbreaker]

The video have the respective quote in question upon doing some digging into.

This quote combined with all the other evidence make me agree with the OP regarding Nasuverse’s shenanigans

The manga version of the statement:

 

[Wankbreaker]

I’ll just paste what I said on discord, here


“外宇宙” is either outer space, or the TM term outer universe (which contextually, means almost the exact same thing)

But either way, it’s more likely to mean outer space, as they described traveling the sea of stars before reaching the boundary (which the sea of stars is literally just outer space)

Update on this, seems like the term “outer universe” is just entirely made up by FGO NA. Who would’ve thought?

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Update on this, seems like the term “outer universe” is just entirely made up by FGO NA. Who would’ve thought?

It's less being "made up" and more than likely refers to being outside, 外, of the Universe of Human Awareness, 認識宇宙, so probably correct in this instance.


I'm still 50/50 on that, could mean either, but "outer space" does seem a bit likely to me at the very least.

There's this stuff from servantverse if you want to take it seriously, though.

Well, water's part of the universe, and the universe is mostly outer space, so what about a space house?

No comment on the OP's thread, will make another one later after scans are collected.

 

[Wankbreaker]

It's less being "made up" and more than likely refers to being outside, 外, of the Universe of Human Awareness, 認識宇宙, so probably correct in this instance.

Maybe the case, but, every other TM term has at least one instance where the furigana is given for the intended meaning/reading.
This is for example, why Executors are called Executors, and not Agents.

From my rummaging so far, I’ve found 0 cases of “Outer Universe” in katakana above “ 外宇宙“

I'm still 50/50 on that, could mean either, but "outer space" does seem a bit likely to me at the very least.

We know that literally anything from outer space/outside the laws of the world (planet) are foreigners, even if they aren’t particularly eldritch gods, so dunno. One of the outer gods is literally just chilling on mars, also.

There's this stuff from servantverse if you want to take it seriously, though.


No comment on the OP's thread, will make another one later after scans are collected.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Probably the case, but, every other TM term has at least one instance where the furigana is given for the intended meaning/reading.
This is for example, why Executors are called Executors, and not Agents.

As I've pointed out to you on Discord, the furigana for this one is あちら側

 

[Catzlaflame]

Edit: scan not dead actually, huh weird.

Obligatory, I don’t know the series, and was asked to comment.

Reading the thread, the subsequent debates, and various messages from Wank on discord, I genuinely don’t see anything from the opposition that wasn’t addressed. I think the Op made a far stronger argument, so consider me in favor.

Out of respect for the fact that this seems like relatively limited discussion for a Nasu thread, I will keep an eye out for further discussion if anything changes.

Also will get to applying the other thread lol; shinza has exercised carte blanche over my wiki time since I committed to helping those peeps prior to Nasu, but will definitely get to it

 

[Firestorm808]

Europa

かの神の視座はゼウスより遙かに大きく、 おそらく、わたくしたちを認識してはいないのでしょう。

Chaos perceives the universe on a vastly greater scale than Zeus. I suspect they are not even aware of us.

Musashi

アレはあっち側の大伽藍だいがらんで、 本来、こっち側には干渉しないもの。

That overgrown temple up there usually sticks to its own side of the universe and never interferes with ours, right?

Raw Translation:

His sight is far greater than that of Zeus,
and probably does not recognize us.

That thing is a big gallery on the other side,
that essentially doesn't interfere with this side.

No use of the Japanese term for universe.

 

[Firestorm808]

Snip

What is the current requirements from Japanese Translators on our site regarding the use of "宇宙" to mean a literal universe?

 

[Wankbreaker]

What is the current requirements from Japanese Translators on our site regarding the use of "宇宙" to mean a literal universe?

As far as I know? None?

But “外宇宙” literally just means outer space.

But 宇宙 is used a lot of the time in Nasu to mean humanity/the earth’s zone of influence, you can see that be referred to in the scan above, calling Earth its own closed off universe, its heavily contextual.

 

[Firestorm808]

As far as I know? None?

But “外宇宙” literally just means outer space.

But 宇宙 is used a lot of the time in Nasu to mean humanity/the earth’s zone of influence, you can see that be referred to in the scan above, calling Earth its own closed off universe, its heavily contextual.

Do we have any japanese statements that just use 宇宙 on it's own?

If so, I would like to know the surrounding context.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Do we have any japanese statements that just use 宇宙 on it's own?

For what in particular? In general?

If so, I would like to know the surrounding context.

 

[Firestorm808]

For what in particular? In general?

Yes, in the FGO Machine God Arc.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yes, in the FGO Machine God Arc.

All instances can be found here.

[JP] Scripts Search - Atlas Academy DB

Atlas Academy DB - FGO Game Data Navigator

apps.atlasacademy.io

But it flip flops between something literal like this, to

(人工知能) 宇宙の彼方より飛来した存在だ。

Artificial Intelligence: They are beings who descended from the other side of the universe.

Talking about the human order.

(Ｕ－オルガマリー) 『何ら不可思議な展開コトはない。この宇宙(せかい)において、私を上回る人理は存在しないのだから』

This development should be obvious. In this universe, the Human Order does not surpass me.

 

[Firestorm808]

If we go under the assertion that the Machine God are from a separate 3-D space, this doesn't necessary mean they are from a separate space-time.

Aren't textures just separate 3-D spaces?

 

[Wankbreaker]

If we go under the assertion that the Machine God are from a separate 3-D space, this doesn't necessary mean they are from a separate space-time.

Aren't textures just separate 3-D spaces?

Textures seemingly have a temporal element, but you are able to leave (or travel between them back when there was no unified surface texture) spatially. Not sure how that works in wiki, though.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Bumping

 

[Re5yh]

I think infinity does seem to exist or not

Realm of Infinite

The Realm of Infinite (無限の領域, Mugen no Ryōiki?), also known as the Realm of Nothingness (無の領域, Mu no Ryōiki?) is a conceptual place manifested by the collision between Ishana Daitenshou and Tsubame Gaeshi. The Realm of Infinite isn't a World. It's neither a Compiled Event nor a Pruned Event...

typemoon.fandom.com

 

[Tipoima]

I think infinity does seem to exist or not

Realm of Infinite

The Realm of Infinite (無限の領域, Mugen no Ryōiki?), also known as the Realm of Nothingness (無の領域, Mu no Ryōiki?) is a conceptual place manifested by the collision between Ishana Daitenshou and Tsubame Gaeshi. The Realm of Infinite isn't a World. It's neither a Compiled Event nor a Pruned Event...

typemoon.fandom.com

As much as swordwankery Shimousa tries to do...this is a whole lot of nothing. Literally.
It's even described as a dream, IIRC. "If you take uber sword magic and use it against opposite uber sword magic you uhhh get stuck in this infinite battle that actually is over instantly and someone even looking at it breaks it."

Personally, it looks like a description of superposition. Except, you know, through swordwankery.

 

[Wankbreaker]

As much as swordwankery Shimousa tries to do...this is a whole lot of nothing. Literally.
It's even described as a dream, IIRC. "If you take uber sword magic and use it against opposite uber sword magic you uhhh get stuck in this infinite battle that actually is over instantly and someone even looking at it breaks it."

Personally, it looks like a description of superposition. Except, you know, through swordwankery.

The story section, if you read it, plays it off as the most fake infinity ever.

幾万、幾億とある“選択肢”。
それらをすべて検証し、潰し、無意味と押し止め。

"Tens of thousands, or even hundreds of millions of 'options'.
Examining them all, crushing them, and deeming them meaningless."

かたや多重に連なる分け身の剣。
それはいわば“多くの可能性”を認める道。

"On the other hand, the sword of multiply layered replicas.
This was, in a sense, a path that acknowledged 'countless possibilities'."

Kojirou’s sword is even stated to be “like” a sword of infinity, which means it’s a metaphor…… which is, consistent with the OP. Kojirou’s sword is also, using the multidimensional refraction phenomena of the second magic, so it too, does not govern infinite possibilities.

それを同時に認め、多くの“正解”を創り出す、
いわば無限の剣である。

"Simultaneously acknowledging them, it creates countless 'correct answers'—
So to speak, an infinite sword."

Either way, using more infinite statements is not the way to counter infinity being a metaphor to begin with.

 

[Wankbreaker]

bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Don't know the verse, but reading everything over, OP's arguments make sense.

 

[Vietthai96]

What is the current requirements from Japanese Translators on our site regarding the use of "宇宙" to mean a literal universe?

No requirements actually, normally we default the term to be literal universe, but contexts of specific verse can change the meaning, some verses it could mean the entire cosmology which could be multiversal cosmology, some other cases just mean outer space.

 

[Wankbreaker]

If we go under the assertion that the Machine God are from a separate 3-D space, this doesn't necessary mean they are from a separate space-time.

Aren't textures just separate 3-D spaces?

Could you update us on your opinion? This needs one more vote to be applied

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

How many downgrades is this verse gonna get bro

 

[Huesito88]

How many downgrades is this verse gonna get bro

All of them

 

[Firestorm808]

Could you update us on your opinion? This needs one more vote to be applied

From what I've seen, Infinity does not exist in the literal sense.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

All of them

Can we get 12D HSR Saber!!!

Anyways proposal seems fine

 

[Wankbreaker]

How many downgrades is this verse gonna get bro

7 singularities.

7 lostbelts.

7 downgrade threads.

Clear them all and defeat the Beast of Humanity to restore the Wank Order to the pages.